The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

As to not derail the Dolphins thread...


To CF Dolfan, I hear you, man.  I really do understand where you're coming from about what the flag or the anthem means to you. 

But to me, it means something different....almost the opposite, in fact.  It might surprise you, but I consider myself a very patriotic person.  I like the flag.  I come from a family that flies the flag, I had one displayed in my room on the wall for much of my life.  But I almost take offense that the flag is tied to war or soldiers.  While I respect the military and those that have fallen for just (and even unjust) causes, that flag belongs to me every bit as it does to them.  I also do not like blind nationalism, I don't like the hero-worship of the military, and I don't like the pledge of allegiance.  These things go against the very notion of what the flag is for, to me.

I love the flag for what it represents, but the flag (or what it represents) doesn't get my unconditional love; it has to continue to earn it.

I think that flag protest is among the most patriotic things you can do.  Dissent against your government is at the very core of what makes the flag great in the first place -- and willingness to stand up (or kneel, in this case) as a symbol that your government is not living up to what it stands for, is completely apt.

My point is this -- If I were to kneel (or burn the flag or turn my back to it or raise my fist up to it or whatever has been done through the years) it has absolutely zero in my mind to do with the military.  That's something that YOU are bringing to the table, but it's not what it represents to everyone else.

I would like to chime in a little.  Although my opinion, like everyone else's, is just that; subjective and an opinion.  Specifically pertaining to the military, and the flag and this comment:


I served in the US Army for 16 years.  Respect for the Flag is not the same as the flag being a symbol for the service.  Stopping for taps does not = "the flag is a military symbol."  It simply represents a portion of what we protect.  
In the Olympics, when an American won gold, the same happens.  Is the flag then a symbol for the Olympics?  Of course not.

The flag is symbolic of the nation, and everything the nation represents.  Under law, we are all to be equal, I think we all know this is not true.  Some are better than admitting the warts associated with this nation than others, admission of flaws does not negate an ability to love this nation, and understand we have a lot of work to do. I would not kneel during the anthem, nor protest the anthem.  I fully understand and support those who do, and will protect them while they do it.  I did not serve so everyone would think like me, I served so everyone could think like themselves.  I may not agree with what you have to say - but I will die to protect your right to say it.  I also always have my mind open that my way, and things I think, may not be "the" way.  Always learning, always questioning, and always willing to listen. That is the flag, for me.

The moment we even think about forcing anyone to do anything else we are no different than North Korea.

It used to surprise me but it doesn't any longer and it's because of people like you. I saw a meme once that said something along the lines of "You can't raise your kids like your parents raised you because that world no longer exists". I think there is a lot of truth to that. Each generation is different and I think it is difficult to see another's perspective without experiencing it a little. I just wish there was something going on in the world that wasn't political. It's driving people crazy.

One more thing --

I like the anthem.  I choose to stand, I usually sing along, I have somewhat recently scored my own arrangement of it.

But that, for me, is a choice that I make for pride.  And the minute that I feel that it is expected of me to honor the anthem or the flag or whatever else, that symbol is no longer worthy of that praise.

It's why I'm not a fan of the pledge.  I don't pledge allegiance.  My country earns my allegiance by its actions, but they are by no means a guarantee.  Once this country doesn't represent what it's supposed to stand for, it will no longer receive my support.

You don't feel like the US has earned your allegiance? I'm curious to know what your reasons for this are? You live in the best country in the world and in many cases, it's not close. You know how I know this? All you have to do is talk to some people that have lived in other countries around the world. Corruption. Abuse. Injustice. Oh there's some of that in the US too, but compared to most other countries, it's night and day.  Your lack of patriotism to the greatest country in the world is disappointing. I feel like this is mainly because you have taken the country that you live in for granted. You remind me of a much younger generation of kids, but for the most part once those kids mature and realize how they good they have it compared to the rest of the world, they start to see things a bit differently. I think you would change your tune if you lost some of the priviledges you have simply because you live in this great country. The US has it's share of problems, I won't deny that but don't for a minute think that other countries don't have it worse. Much worse in most cases.

The attitude that Dave is displaying I think is part of the problem with this whole American Flag and National Anthem protest. I don't think those that choose to protest by disrespecting the American Flag and the National Anthem realize that they are choosing the very symbol of what it is that provides them the right to protest in the first place. That's a very poor choice as a way of protest in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I respect your decision to protest as you see fit, but realize that I too have the right to protest to the manner in which you protest. That's MY right. And if I would prefer you STAND and pay your respects to the US and what it represents while the National Anthem and the Flag of the United States is presented then so be it. You're not wrong for protesting, but I don't have to agree with the way in which you are protesting to agree with the protest. I respect your right to protest, I don't agree with using the presentation of the American flag and playing of the National Anthem to do it.

I didn't say that. Also, I think you're mixing up what I do vs. what I'd be willing to do if my country didn't continue to hold my values.

I do have allegiance to the country, but my point was that my allegiance is not absolute.  American (or any country) is incapable of my unconditional love indefinitely.  My love, when it comes to loyalty of government, has conditions.  If we fall down the wrong path, I'm not going to support America simply because of what it once stood for.

I hate to bring this to Nazi-ism, because that's usually where stuff derails, but it really does make my point most succinctly.  I'm sure there are many Germans who were patriotic, good citizens -- yet didn't just fall in line when horrible things were being done by their country, just because they once loved Germany.  I certainly wouldn't fault them for not standing for the pledge during a Nazi regime.  (Not saying the US are Nazis...it's just a very clear example.)

Again, I think you're wrong that I'm not patriotic.  I feel that I'm very patriotic.  I love this country, which is why I'm so passionate in fighting for what I believe it stands for.  Strangely, I find that co-opting the symbols of America, while discounting what those symbols represent, is a betrayal of patriotism.  Generally, it seems those that cling to their flags and their symbols are less deserving of them, in many cases.

I feel like it's kinda like the debate that Christians always have about being a good Christian by living the life vs the one that's always spouting scripture but lives life in ways that are un-Christ-like.

I really want to make a separate point to drive it home that I, personally, am patriotic.  I'm almost taken aback by the suggestion that I'm not.

But my way of showing it is probably different.  I love American History.  I'm rewatching John Adams right now, in fact.  But I regularly go back and watch shows about history and the evolution of the country.  I've scored the National Anthem.  I usually sing it.  I display the flag, historically (don't have a flagpole now, but I'd like one). 

My whole point that I don't want to be missed it, if America is an asshole, I won't continue to do those things just because it's America.

Also, I have not personally lived overseas, but my siblings have and I'm very familiar with and have spent time and have an understanding of cultures in Asia and Europe.  I'm not a stranger to other ways of life.

I do think that America is the greatest country on Earth, but it's a mixed bag.  Some countries do things better than us, some things worse, but I think that our diversity and intuition is inherently capable of making us the best.  But I don't take that for granted.

By saying that you won't pledge your allegiance to the US you kind of are in my opinion. The pledge of allegiance doesn't mean that you will ALWAYS be allegiant, it means right now you are. Obviously if the US stops to be what you think it should be then you can stop your allegiance to it, that's understood. That's why you don't say the pledge of allegiance once and forget it, you say it every day. It's your acknowledgement that currently your allegiant to the flag. By refusing to say it in my opinion your not really committing that you are currently allegiant. Not that you will ALWAYS be allegiant to the flag especially if what it means to be allegiant to the flag changes and you can no longer be allegiant for those reasons. At least that's how I understand it and that's how I view it. If you were to agree that you currently are allegiant to the flag then you should be willing to say the pledge of allegiance in my opinion. Are you willing to say the pledge of allegiance under those conditions? If not, then I don't think you really are regardless of what you say. Seems to me that you want to have your cake and eat it too. You can't have both. Either you are currently allegiant to the US or you are not. Which is it? You certainly have the right to stop that allegiance at any point you choose to. No where in the pledge of allegiance does it say it's a permanent pledge or that it somehow pertains to the future which in my opinion no one can really pledge.

I don't know, man.  I just think that a pledge of allegiance is weird.  Especially asking kids to do it.  It's not that I never say it (I'm not really in a position as an adult to be asked to say it).  I just think the very concept of pledging allegiance is a weird brain-washing thing. 

I believe that I can hold an allegiance to something without repeating some rote words in a public setting.   Shit's weird to me.  I'm also the guy that will never, ever speak to someone like my wife or my kids publicly through Facebook to wish her a happy anniversary or congratulate them on their birthday.  I'm just not that kind of guy.

I don't think that makes me unpatriotic, but I'm not sure what else so say.

The pledge is not for you Dave, it's for the others who hear you say it. You are effectively telling them "I'm not a traitor, you can trust me and my allegiance to the US". If you don't say it, then how are we suppose to know? Now you could actually be a traitor and just be saying it and not really mean it and honestly that kind of sounds a little like what I'm hearing from you. You are saying it but you're not really sure you mean it. That's why I say it sounds a little unpatriotic to me. I don't really think you mean it that way, but maybe you're not quite as patriotic as you think you are? I think most people say the pledge of allegiance with pride. Sure doesn't sound like that for you.

I'm posting this in a seperate post to illustrate that is has nothing to do with Dave and the pledge of allegiance, rather it's my take on the world and the country that I live in.

As a technology person I have had the good fortune to make some very close relationships with people from other countries, namely India and Mexico. I have nothing against either of those countries, in fact I have tremendous respect for the people that come from those countries. I say that because I've sat and talked with them. I'm good friends with them. The things that go on in their countries. How they are treated. What they think of their own countries. All of these people are patriotic to their own countries, but they are also envious of THIS country. I know this first hand because they tell me so. Many of the people from those other countries would RATHER live in this country if they had the choice. Not that their home country is bad, but the US is better. Not in EVERY way, but in a lot of ways. I won't try to go into it because it's not a simple thing, it's only after living in this country for a long while and seeing how things are here and comparing to their own country do they realize this. I have one friend that is very fearful that he will one day not be able to live in this country because he is not a citizen. He has been trying to get his US citizenship for many years now because it takes around 12 years for people from India to get a US citzenship. If he does obtain it, I dare say that he will be proud to say the pledge of allegiance. It might be one of the best days of his life, for him and his family.

For my friends from Mexico that have lived here since Trump has become president they have marveled how it is that the US has gotten a president very much like the presidents that they have traditionally had in Mexico for years. Outwardly they pretend to care about the country when their actions speak the opposite. They mostly just want to line their pockets. Corruption is a way of life politically in Mexico. Mexico has tried for years to change that, the US on the other hand seems to have lost sight of the importance of doing what's right, not what's most beneficial for yourself.

Maybe I've just been lucky to see things from a different perspective, but I feel many of those that live in the US don't know how lucky they are. Why do you think that foreigners try so hard to get into our country anyway? Just because they want to get rich? Become millionaires or something? You can live very extravagant lifestyles in other countries without being rich, that's not it. They want to come here because it's about our ideals. It's about what we hold most sacred. The freedom of speech. The freedom of religion. The freedom to pursue happiness and most of all the idea that all men are created equal (even if this is a tough sell on some people).

Anyone else find grown men discussing the pledge a little weird? I haven't been in a position where it was spoken around me in 40 years probably. I always thought that it was just kids in elementary schools.

I believe most legislatures (and similar bodies like city councils) recite the pledge before starting official proceedings.

Hypothetically speaking, what would have to be different in order for you to change this belief?

Are we the richest country in the world?  Yes.
Do we have the largest and most powerful military in the world?  Also yes.

By most other objective measures - e.g. life expectancy, general health, education, income mobility, democratic participation - we have allowed ourselves to decline and we are no longer the best in the world.  We just like to say "We're the best!" over and over, particularly when someone tries to improve the country in a way we disagree with.

Agreed.  I love this country and wouldn't want to live anywhere else.  But it definitely depends on what barometer you are choosing for measurement to determine whether it is the "best" country.  Most people in most countries think their country is "the best".  When I was in Iraq, most of the people there thought Iraq is the best country.  I was like, "Seriously?  This absolute shit hole?"    LOL   

Also, the assumption that we're the richest country in the world means little when you don't provide any metrics to back that up.

Sure, we're richer than Suriname, or Russia or 90% of other countries. And we have the most billionaires. But honestly what do care about Bezos or the Waltons wealth. How does that help anyone other than themselves?

If we're talking about GDP, it's just a matter of time before China overtakes us. And if you consider the EU as an economic block rather than each country individually (because of the common market) then that's a larger economy than the US as well.

If you're talking about per capita income, we aren't even close to #1. If you're talking about quality of life measures related to wealth, we're somewhere in the low teens.

My only problem when people say that the US is the "greatest" country in the world is that they don't ever quantify the metrics.

It once was, that's for sure. But the destruction of the middle class that Reagan started has decimated this country for the past 40 years.

The constitution. I don't care about power or money, I care about ideals. Over 200 years ago the founding fathers of this country got it right. It hasn't always been how they conceived of it and this is a pretty dark time for the US, but I've lived through the 60's, 70's and 80's and there have always been dark times. It's never been easy, but this country always bounces back because it's built on a solid foundation. And when I say I live in the greatest country, I'm not talking about "at this moment in time", I'm talking about the last 200 years. No question that the US is the greatest country over the last 200 years in my mind. I've lived through nearly 60 of those and when I look back at all that we have accomplished and all that we have been through I can say that with confidence. Too many only focus on the "What have you done for me lately" aspect of that statement, I'm focused more on the big picture. It's all about your perspective. Trump says he wants to make America great again, but I don't think he has the same things in mind when he says that as I do.

They typically also have the US flag present at these meetings when they recite the pledge. It's a way of reminding everyone why they are there.

I run across it at school functions for my kids.  It's the only time that I personally am put in that position.  I think it's kinda weird and don't feel right about it, so I don't do it, but that's just me.  I don't really go for public affirmations like that.

It wasn't that long ago that you could have said "at this moment in time" with pride.

I think when most people hear talk of "the greatest country in the world," they think of right now, not over the last 200 or 500 or 1000 years.  If someone from the UK said that Britain is the greatest country of the last 500 years, would you disagree?  "200 years" is an arbitrary number; "right now" isn't.

The US has only been around 200 or so years. The LAST 200 years seems pretty relevant to me. A lot more then the 300 years before that. I think you're being argumentative.

I think it's pretty convenient that the timeframe that "counts" is almost exactly the same as the age of the country you think is best.  Older countries are too old to be relevant, and we can't "focus on what you have done for me lately" because... that's not old enough, or something.  I mean, why is 1830 more relevant to today than 1730 or 1630?  As I said, seems pretty arbitrary.

You're missing the point. The only time that is relevant to the US is during it's existence. It's not convenient, it's completely relevant. It's not like the US has been around for 1000 Years and I'm cherry picking the last 200. I'm saying that during the time the US has existed, it's been the greatest country in the world for most of that time. What happened prior to it's existence is irrelevant when comparing to the US. In my opinion it still is the greatest country in the world, because of the reasons that I've already mentioned. I don't get what you don't get about that and I'm not going to argue with you about it because it's my opinion, you don't have to agree.

Perhaps one of the truly great speeches from a TV show...season 1, episode 1 of The Newsroom, after Will McAvoy snaps at the question "What makes America the greatest country in the world?"

"It sure used to be… We stood up for what was right. We fought for moral reasons. We passed laws, struck down laws, for moral reason. We waged wars on poverty, not on poor people. We sacrificed, we cared about our neighbors, we put our money where our mouths were and we never beat our chest. We built great, big things, made ungodly technological advances, explored the universe, cured diseases and we cultivated the world’s greatest artists AND the world’s greatest economy. We reached for the stars, acted like men. We aspired to intelligence, we didn’t belittle it. It didn’t make us feel inferior. We didn’t identify ourselves by who we voted for in the last election and ...we didn’t scare so easy. We were able to be all these things and do all these things because we were informed… by great men, men who were revered. First step in solving any problem is recognizing there is one. America is not the greatest country in the world anymore.”

Let me try to bring this discussion back around to where it started, sorry if I pulled it off the rails, it was not intended.

Racism is not a new thing. It's a VERY old thing. It pretty much has been a part of mankind since the beginning and definitely been a part of the US since it's inception. We can argue what the Civil war was about, but a large part of it was about racism which is at the core of slavery. What was world war II about? Again a large part of it was about racism. The Klu Klux Klan? Racism. In the 60's it was segregation. Now it's social injustice. Racism has ALWAYS been a problem for the US and just about every country in my mind. The only thing that has changed is the battlefield. This particular battlefield is new, but the underlying problem has ALWAYS been there. We stamp out racism in one place and it just shifts to a new battlefield. It will be the same with the current problem within the police force. I'm not saying it's not important, it is I'm just saying that its not new. For many of you it seems like this is something new for you, for me it's not. It's a continuation of the problem that's been there from the beginning. I think we are making progress, but there's ALWAYS room for improvement. This current issue doesn't diminish my view of the US as a whole, in fact just the opposite. It reinforces the notion that all men are created equal and deserve equal rights and shows that once again the US is working on correctlng a problem with racism at it's core. That's what we do as a country. That's what we have always done.

Stroke beat me to it. The Newsroom was great and that may have been its best scene.

Pappy sorry .. but you're just wrong.


The US rise to superpower was a direct result of WW2 mobilization and the fact that no shots were fired on the mainland. So lets be generous and call it 1942 to today, that's 78 years. Before that the US wasn't the most powerful or most influential or most economically prosperous country in the world. That was the English empire. Only after WW2, where GB had to recover from infrastructure losses, debt payments and the loss of their overseas possessions did the US climb to the #1 spot by any metric.

You can say it's your favorite country in the world, and I won't dispute it. You can say that since WW2, the us has been the greatest country and I'll even (mostly) buy that.  But majority of its existence? not a chance.

The USA is the greatest country in the world because everyone wants to come here for the freedoms, protections, and opportunities to better their self and their family. It's so good in fact that haters refuse to leave it.

Are you saying that because you've actually spoken to everyone? Or because you've determined that nobody is emigrating to any country other than the USA?

I love this country too, but making a huge generalization like that is not going to go well for you in this thread. 

LOL ... If I cared about being attacked I wouldn't post. This isn't a friendly place for a guy like me. Well ... online  anyways. Everyone seems to get along pretty well in the real world. 

Oh I hear ya.  I don't care about being attacked either.  And like you said, probably the vast majority of us would get along just fine in "real life" over a beer.  I wasn't meaning that you as a person wouldn't go over well with your generalization about everyone wanting to come here.   I just meant that your point wouldn't do well because it really was a huge generalization. 

You mean since 2017, right?  My understanding is that the US was a flaming garbage dump for approximately 8 years prior to that.

You can't exactly make America great again if (at the time) it is the greatest nation in history, right?

Watching the presidential debate tonight makes it pretty hard for me to say we are the greatest country in the world.  The greatest country in the world should give us better choices than these two buffoons.  Tonight has been like listening to a couple of 5 year olds arguing.
You are a liar!
No, you are a liar!
Well, you are a big poopy head.
Well, you are super duper poopy head.

I will probably vote for the Libertarian candidate, Jo Jorgensen.  But I'm realistic enough to know that no Libertarian candidate will ever be elected president during my lifetime.  The greatest country in the world should give us better options than these two blowhard clowns. 

I think everyone is mostly friendly to the people here.  Treating the people behind the keyboards with some consideration is pretty basic.  Your ideas however are fair game to any and all criticism, ridicule, argument, and rebuttal.  "Hate the sin, love the sinner" I believe is how it goes right ?

They should just turn off the mic of the guy who isn't supposed to be speaking. End of interruptions.

I think Biden should just not do another debate. There's nothing for him to gain here. It's not like an trumper will ever not vote for him, no matter what he does.  And the party that is standing on the side of facts and truth will always be vulnerable to the "Gish gallop" like what happened tonight. Trump can spew out lies way faster than he can be fact checked. There just isn't enough time for it.

There was barely an honest statement made by either of them all night.  I doubt that any voter has ever been swayed to change allegiances by a debate.  There will be much back and forth about who "won" last night.  But I can say with 100% certainty that I know who lost.  America lost.  That debate was a perfect microcosm of our society today.  A lot of yelling, nobody listening to each other and the truth having essentially no bearing whatsoever. 

I think last night only helped people who heard something they didn't like from someone .... meaning if you support police and heard Biden you'd probably lean toward Trump and if you hated Trump's personality you'd probably be voting Biden. I really don't think either guy actually helped themselves in this debate.

I've already voted, so no need (or interest) in watching Trump on TV "for anything."

I think the exchange that they had where trump was busing on hunter biden for doing drugs and Joe Biden sticking up for him and being a dad will for sure impact people. As a dad I can 100% identify with it. and Trump is a grotesque asshole for even bringing that shit up. Joe handled it like a dad should.

Just realize that many people see that exchange much differently than you.

Over 2/3rds of Telemundo viewers thought Trump won the debate and many of the things that are being "exploited" on liberal news are being touted on others. For instance ... the whole Proud Boys thing. Lib news keep calling them white supremist while everyone else is pointing out they are not and in fact have blacks and Latinos and basically every other race in their midst. Oh .. and they kick out any members who turn out to be racist.   

Vote for Biden, even if you don't like him.

Trump is a madman, needs to be repudiated fully, and then the center-right people/Libertarians need to take back their party.

Seriously, though - RANKED CHOICE VOTING - both sides need it.  It would allow third parties to have a much greater influence and actual chance of being elected.  It would prevent the likes of Biden and Trump from being the candidates in the future.

::)

Done...and have had conversations with neighbors to make sure they know where the voting station is located, how to request mail-in ballots*, how to report voter intimidation, etc...



*It's OK...I am in Florida, and mail-in ballots here can't possibly involve voter fraud.

Very true...some people can't recognize a conman and a liar to save their life.


So, you have an organization whose charter specifically says that they are anti-immigrant...and you want me to believe that a group of anti-immigrants who also organizes violent attacks on BLM demonstrations ISN'T racist?

There's this bridge I'd like to sell ya, CF...you seem like the perfect person to buy it.

 ::)

The poll you are referring to was a poll on Twitter, which (like all internet polls that are not conducted in a scientific manner) can easily be swarmed by supporters who are sharing a link.  Outlets like Newsweek reported (https://www.newsweek.com/66-percent-spanish-speaking-americans-telemundo-poll-think-trump-just-won-debate-1535176) that 66% of "Spanish-speaking American Telemundo viewers" thought Trump won, but in an unscientific self-selected Twitter poll, there's no way to know if the respondents were a) Spanish-speaking, b) American, or even c) Telemundo viewers.  All that you can know is that they have access to Twitter.

There is a long history of the internet clowning open polls on the web (https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/52524/15-polls-hijacked-internet).

Don't take it from me. Take it from their chairman who happens to be Latino.  This is a great video of how the media is lying to all of us.

https://youtu.be/1tMZEIdyKXk


Black member of Proud Boys breaks the lies about them

https://twitter.com/dowop_robinson/status/1311364064589869058?s=21

I don't know that "We can't be racist, one of our members is black" or "We can't be sexist, here's a woman that agrees with us" has the impact you think it does.  For example, I think most people - including Colin Kaepernick, who started the protests during the national anthem - are aware that black police officers exist.

I have a black friend.   :D :D :D

Oh, and just as a counterbalance to the video of the Proud Boys chairman (who is a Latino, mind you!) with some very noble and upstanding interpretations of their mission, here is the founder of the Proud Boys, Gavin McInnes, with a slightly less nuanced take on what the Proud Boys are about:

https://twitter.com/VicBergerIV/status/1306805724975046659

edit: For those who can't watch it on Twitter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G95qjjQaNho

You'll love this bridge! And I'll sell it to ya on the cheap, just because I like ya...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/sep/30/wilfred-reilly-insists-proud-boys-arent-white-supr/ (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/sep/30/wilfred-reilly-insists-proud-boys-arent-white-supr/)

Wilfred Reilly, associate professor of political science at Kentucky State University, said Wednesday that “the Proud Boys aren’t white supremacists,” describing the right-wing group’s beliefs as “Western chauvinist” and noting that their international chairman, Enrique Tarrio, is Black.

If I were the head of an anti-immigrant militia group that targets BLM protests, I'd tell people I'm not a white supremacist every chance I got.

Kind of like Donald Trump telling everyone how smart he is every chance he gets...despite being a complete moron.

ANTIFA =/= BLM