Do you support Israel or Hamas?

[Dave Gray]

Here to revisit this again.

I see a disturbing trend among the college-student liberal types, which is moved away from simply not supporting Israel's ongoing aggression (which is logical) to now actively supporting the opposition, be it Hamas or Iran, which, to me, is fucking crazy.  We can't get our eye off the ball, here.  Netanyahu sucks, is a right-wing crook, and is probably making poor strategic and unstabilizing military moves because it will save his skin, politically.

However....

It's still better for the US if Israel comes out on top.  They're still a Western Democracy.

Again, nuace...  But it's fair to criticize Israel for a non-proportional response without jumping ship to support terrorists.

Also, a lot of the people who are the most vocal for support of Gaza, sometimes going so far to defend Hamas and Iran, is that they seem to want a two state solution before aid to Israel.  But THEY DON'T WANT a two-state solution in these Muslim countries.  They want Israel gone.  That's the crux of a lot of this issue.  It's a land dispute and so long as Israel exists, these places aren't going to be chill.  In the US, we need to strive to return Iran to the more progressive direction it was heading prior to the 1980s and that means beating back this religious zealot leadership in all of these nations.

[Fau Teixeira]

I saw where 28 Google employees had a sit-in in the CEO's office and refused to leave until google rescinded a 1.2 billion dollar contract with israel.

Just stupid, they were removed and fired. Companies have no morals. That CEO would shoot his own mother in the head for 1.2 billion dollars.

The college student liberal types are finding out that regardless of political party, nobody is going to take the palestinian side over israel. This disillusionment makes them ripe for propaganda. They have no recourse in the US, if the Dems aren't going to pander to them (and they aren't) what are they going to do ? Run to the republicans? They want israel to wipe gaza off the map. So all that's left to them is to protest. (which btw, them protesting the party that is at least calling for moderation is the tops of irony)

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I saw where 28 Google employees had a sit-in in the CEO's office and refused to leave until google rescinded a 1.2 billion dollar contract with israel.

Just stupid, they were removed and fired. Companies have no morals. That CEO would shoot his own mother in the head for 1.2 billion dollars.

Hard pressed to think of many settings were someone could refuse to work and rather had a sit in in the ceos office and not get fired. 

[CF DolFan]

But it's fair to criticize Israel for a non-proportional response without jumping ship to support terrorists.

This is where you and I disagree. I don't know how anyone can tell a country whose kids were attacked, raped, killed, and continues to be hostages how they can respond. Then they follow that up with over 300 missiles being shot at them. It's kind of like the kid who suckered punched you and broke your nose and then dictating how you are allowed to respond.

Everyone knows Hamas uses the Palestinians as shields and yet Palestinians support them instead of ratting them out so "innocents" end up dying.  Even Democrats like Fetterman have said as much. It sucks but when a people care more about wiping you out than they do their own people it's a no win situation until you force your hand.  

You gotta admit seeing the LGTBQ people supporting Palestine and Hamas is downright funny though. 

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Would you actually approve of Israel engaging in a proportional response?

Because a proportional response would include things such as Israel kidnapping random women raping them and then dragging their dead bodies through the streets of Tel Aviv while Israeli cheered and spit on their dead bodies and burning people alive.

Before suggesting that Israel’s responded ought be proportional realize that what you are demanding Israel engage in the same heinous acts Hamas engaged in.  Because that is the only way to be proportional. 

What Israel is doing instead is rooting out Hamas and unfortunately civilians are suffering too.  But Hamas could end the suffering of civilians at any time.  The same way Keitel eventually ended the German peoples suffering on May 8, 1945.
 

[Spider-Dan]

It would be one thing if Israel's actions were only targeting Hamas, but they aren't.  They are targeting hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas.  That's the problem.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

It would be one thing if Israel's actions were only targeting Hamas, but they aren't.  They are targeting hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have nothing to do with Hamas.  That's the problem.

Israel is targeting Hamas.  The problem is Hamas is hiding behind civilians.

[Spider-Dan]

Israel is targeting Hamas.  The problem is Hamas is hiding behind civilians.

Israel's solution to this problem is to target civilians in the hopes of also taking out Hamas in the process.

When I say Israel is targeting civilians, I mean that quite literally: Israel is fully aware that their actions will cause thousands of Palestinian civilians to die, and has determined that the ratio of Palestinian women and/or children that will be killed by bombs, starved to death, etc. to hopefully kill a Hamas militant in the process is currently at an acceptable level.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Israel's solution to this problem is to target civilians in the hopes of also taking out Hamas in the process.

When I say Israel is targeting civilians, I mean that quite literally: Israel is fully aware that their actions will cause thousands of Palestinian civilians to die, and has determined that the ratio of Palestinian women and/or children that will be killed by bombs, starved to death, etc. to hopefully kill a Hamas militant in the process is currently at an acceptable level.

Approximately 2 civilians for every one militant. 

Being aware and targeting are not the same thing.  Bombing a building containing both a Hamas leader and his family is not targeting civilians, it is being aware of the collateral damage.   Bombing a building that only contains civilians is targeting civilians.  Israel is targeting Hamas, Hamas is choosing to include the civilians, not Israel.  But the idea Hamas should be allowed to continue to operate because by hiding behind civilians is insane.
 

[CF DolFan]

Israel's solution to this problem is to target civilians in the hopes of also taking out Hamas in the process.

When I say Israel is targeting civilians, I mean that quite literally: Israel is fully aware that their actions will cause thousands of Palestinian civilians to die, and has determined that the ratio of Palestinian women and/or children that will be killed by bombs, starved to death, etc. to hopefully kill a Hamas militant in the process is currently at an acceptable level.

You act like they are just winging it. Whenever they target a place it is because Hamas is active there. Like I said before, Palestinians support Hamas and refuse to out them so it isn't like they are completely innocent in this. They are playing with fire in the hopes that Israel is decimated instead of helping to rid of extremists.

[Spider-Dan]

Approximately 2 civilians for every one militant.

Gaza: Number of children killed higher than from four years of world conflict

Amid reports of fresh Israeli airstrikes in Gaza overnight into Wednesday, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA) said that more children have been killed there in recent months than in four years of conflict worldwide.

“This war is a war on children. It is a war on their childhood and their future,” said UNRWA Commissioner-General Philippe Lazzarini, who described as “staggering” the latest Gaza health authority data indicating that at least 12,300 youngsters have died in the enclave in the last four months, compared with 12,193 globally between 2019 and 2022.

Writing on X, formerly Twitter, late on Tuesday, the UNRWA chief reiterated repeated international calls for an immediate ceasefire in the enclave, where intense Israeli bombardment in response to Hamas-led terror attacks in Israel on 7 October has levelled entire neighbourhoods.

To date, more than 31,184 Palestinians have been killed and 72,889 injured, according to the local health authorities. As of 12 March, 247 Israeli soldiers have been killed in Gaza with 1,475 injured since the start of the ground operation, Israeli army data shows.

Over 12,000 children have been killed by Israel.  They simply do not care how many civilians have to die to "eliminate Hamas."

Being aware and targeting are not the same thing.  Bombing a building containing both a Hamas leader and his family is not targeting civilians, it is being aware of the collateral damage.   Bombing a building that only contains civilians is targeting civilians.  Israel is targeting Hamas, Hamas is choosing to include the civilians, not Israel.  But the idea Hamas should be allowed to continue to operate because by hiding behind civilians is insane.

This argument stopped being plausible when Israel started killing humanitarian workers trying to feed starving Palestinians.

Israel isn't just killing Palestinians with bombs; they are killing them by bombing the people trying to feed them.  The idea that it is somehow justified to starve Palestinian children because "Hamas still exists" is insulting.

[Spider-Dan]

Like I said before, Palestinians support Hamas and refuse to out them so it isn't like they are completely innocent in this.

The concept you are describing - i.e. Israel is killing Palestinian civilians because they are "refusing to turn over Hamas militants" -  is called collective punishment, and is specifically outlawed by the Geneva Conventions.

[Dave Gray]

There's just nuance.  Both parties bear responsibility in protecting civilians.  Hamas' actions are indefensible, but Israel also has to take precautions to limit civilian death as much as is reasonable.

It's also hard because both sides are going to say that every action is a response to a previous action and this had been going back and forth and on and on since forever.

I do think it's fair to ask Israel to quell its level of aggression or its methods, as they're resulting in the suffering of too many that aren't war participants.  This is not only as a nation that supports the Geneva convention, but also as a country that is providing miliary aid.  It is also important not to lose sight that Israel is our ally and Hamas is our enemy.  That is the middle ground that I've carved out and I don't think it is all that controversial.

[Spider-Dan]

To follow up on this:

Approximately 2 civilians for every one militant.

Turns out this is very far from accurate:

In order to assassinate Ayman Nofal, the commander of Hamas’ Central Gaza Brigade, a source said the army authorized the killing of approximately 300 civilians, destroying several buildings in airstrikes on Al-Bureij refugee camp on Oct. 17, based on an imprecise pinpointing of Nofal. Satellite footage and videos from the scene show the destruction of several large multi-storey apartment buildings. [...]

"There was a completely permissive policy regarding the casualties of [bombing] operations — so permissive that in my opinion it had an element of revenge," D., an intelligence source, claimed. "The core of this was the assassinations of senior [Hamas and PIJ commanders] for whom they were willing to kill hundreds of civilians. We had a calculation: how many for a brigade commander, how many for a battalion commander, and so on."

"There were regulations, but they were just very lenient," said E., another intelligence source. "We’ve killed people with collateral damage in the high double-digits, if not low triple-digits. These are things that haven’t happened before."

Such a high rate of "collateral damage" is exceptional not only compared to what the Israeli army previously deemed acceptable, but also compared to the wars waged by the United States in Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan.

General Peter Gersten, Deputy Commander for Operations and Intelligence in the operation to fight ISIS in Iraq and Syria, told a U.S. defense magazine in 2021 that an attack with collateral damage of 15 civilians deviated from procedure; to carry it out, he had to obtain special permission from the head of the U.S. Central Command, General Lloyd Austin, who is now Secretary of Defense.

"With Osama Bin Laden, you’d have an NCV [Non-combatant Casualty Value] of 30, but if you had a low-level commander, his NCV was typically zero," Gersten said. "We ran zero for the longest time."

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Keep in mind that this calculation is for how many civilians they were willing to directly bomb an an attempt to kill Hamas militants.  This doesn't even account for how many civilians they were willing to starve towards the same ends.