Do you support Israel or Hamas?

[Fau Teixeira]

Do you support Russia or Ukraine? What does it mean to support Ukraine? It's basically the same thing.

And for the record, I think Israel should once and for all put an end to Hamas and absorb the land. And I think Russia should do the same with Ukraine. In both cases as quickly as possible.

Regardless of the reasons you have for your Russia opinion, hasn't Russia been trying to do that? They're just getting whooped.

[Dave Gray]

I do support Ukraine, but they're beating back a foreign invader.  That's a much simpler, easier solution.

I also support Israel's right to defend itself.  And I support Hamas 0.  But I don't want a people genocided because their crooked government are buttholes.

[Dave Gray]

People are losing their heads over this on social media.

I am seeing some people who would normally be like-minded that are falling into conspiracy.  In this case, it's the ideological left, but not really political organizations, but rather single-issue activist group and college students and stuff.

[pondwater]

People are losing their heads over this on social media.

I am seeing some people who would normally be like-minded that are falling into conspiracy.  In this case, it's the ideological left, but not really political organizations, but rather single-issue activist group and college students and stuff.

What are the conspiracies?

[Dave Gray]

What are the conspiracies?

Well, mostly that Israel is responsible for things that they claim not to be.

(Almost like 9/11 truthers, blaming the tower attacks on an inside job.)

The most prevalent thing I'm seeing is this hospital destruction.

Look, I realize that governments lie and all that, and it's certainly possible that more info with come out later, but from the info we have now, we know that a hospital blew up from a missile.  Israel claims that it wasn't their missile and that it was a failed launch from within.  The US is backing up that claim.

So I tend to believe our government and our ally, rather than a terrorist organization.

[Dave Gray]

I want to revisit this, but I'm almost scared to talk about it.

I'm not super educated on this particular issue and everyone is so trigger happy, which, I guess is understandable.  It seems like this is turning into some kind of race war.



I notice that the black community (at least the vocal, online one on threads and Reddit) has become very outspoken about their repudiation of Israel.  We also see what CF mentioned in another thread, which is college students, although I don't give that as much weight.  I think that it's generally accepted that college students are staunchly anti-war and the naivety that comes with that black/white position.

Here's how I feel:
In the question of whether or not it's Israel's land or if it was stolen from the indigenous people?  My answer is "who cares?"  All country borders are arbitrary.  Some king killed some duke and stole his shit, some rich person made a deal, someone got swindled, some caveman hit another caveman on the rock and stole his cave -- no people have a right to any land.  Even though it was fucked up that the Europeans came and stole land from the Native Americans, I wouldn't accept their attempt to take it back.  We just sort of are where we are.  And since Israel, though relatively a new concept, is the understood and agreed upon boundary from the United Nations of which the US is a member, in my mind, that issue is settled.  So, I consider Israel it's own self-governing country and that's that.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, but they're also an elected government, however bullshit and illegitimate.  So, unlike fighting "terrorism", this is an organization with political power that essentially declared war on another sovereign country and needs to be destroyed.  Israel has a right, and I might argue a duty, to do that.

And in war, people die.  Innocent people are killed.  Children suffer.  It's not fair, but it is the cost of war.  I hate it.  But when you are attacked, war is the result.  This is especially true when the aggressor wants their own people to be martyred and make no attempt to shield their people from the attacks; quite the opposite.  Calls for a cease-fire seems inappropriate.  There already was a cease fire and Hamas broke it.  In addition, they still have active hostages.  Asking to stop the bombardment while the other side actively holds your people is a big ask.  Additionally, I see criticism of Israel not providing electricity and water and supplies.  But, I'm not sure I'd be supplying an opposing military force that I'm actively at war with.  Is that a thing countries do -- supply their enemy?  Isn't it the opposite?  Don't you cut off supply lines and bomb railroads and close off ports?

So, while I'm firmly anti-Hamas, I do think that Israel has a humanitarian responsibility to try to reduce civilian casualties, while simultaneously still being able to mount their continued offensive.  If Hamas decides to use their civilian people to shield their militants, then those deaths are on Hamas, IMO, so long as Israel isn't intentionally targeting them.

I simultaneously hold the conflicting belief that I don't really like the state of Israel all that much.  It's a far-right government.  I'd prefer that a self-governing Palestinian state exist in the region.  And though I think Netanyahu is a self-serving a-hole, when conflicts about truth (who bombed what, for example) arise, I'm likely to trust our Westernized, democratic ally over a literal terrorist organization.  Hamas doesn't get the benefit of the doubt because of their actions.

All that said, I don't think that Israel can bomb themselves out of this problem and that a two-state solution, however unlikely to occur (especially now) is the most reasonable path for long-term peace.  However, Israel does have a right to remove Hamas, but has a responsibility not to treat it as an act of vengeance or revenge.

Politically, there is a weird wrap-around.  I don't even know if you'd call it far left and far right, but the farthest ends of the political spectrum seem to be aligning.  Tucker Carlson is spewing some weird antisemitism conspiracy theories and so are the Black Lives Matter organization.  It's a weird coalition.

[CF DolFan]

It can seem really surprising that everything seems to revolve around occupying this one little piece of land until you realize Hamas actually only wants to eradicate all Jews and infidels. The land or occupation has zero to do with it. Peaceful Palestinians are caught in the middle but have always been free to move to any of the green areas. The truth is Palestinians have more freedom in Israel than they would in any Arab country. Hamas takes the aid given to them and uses them for shields as they attack Jewish civilians.


Interesting note to some but "hamas" is used throughout the original Hebrew text of the Bible . In fact in Revelations God talks about ridding the world of hamas and building a new heaven and new earth. “Hamas,” the Arabic terrorist group, is an acronym  of Harakat al-Muqawama al-Islamiya (Islamic Resistance Movement) and is also in the Bible for violence and murder. The Hebrew word “hamas” means violence and murder. Hamas was founded in 1987 however, the biblical word “ḥāmās”  reaches back to the earliest chapters of Genesis and is one of the significant reasons for the flood.

[Dave Gray]

I don't think those in Gaza can leave.  They can't go in to Israel, there's ocean, and then there's Egypt, which was also closed off to them.

[Spider-Dan]

Gaza has been referred to as "the world's largest open-air prison."  Half of the population of Gaza are children.  The idea that they can simply leave at any time if they would stop being stubborn is pure fantasy; an article from June 2022 details the extensive travel restrictions imposed on Gaza residents.

[Downunder Dolphan]

Dave I think you summed it up pretty rationally in your first and subsequent posts, for most human beings with some resemblance of a soul living outside of the middle east.

If there was a genuine rational solution, there should be some kind of UN peacekeeping force in there trying to diffuse the situation - but this is the middle east where there is an eye for an eye... or taking it further, 5,000+ children killed for 222 hostages taken. When is enough, really enough?

I'm all for Hamas being eliminated, but at what human cost? Then what after that? What replaces them? Is it going to be even worse with another grudge against Israel, or are the killings going to go so far as to being an ethnic cleansing (or even Genocidal) sweep through Gaza? These are questions that I think even the highest placed minds in the political spheres immediately concerned have not seriously considered yet... and that should be a scary thought.

[Spider-Dan]

I saw this recently and while it isn't really a fair assessment - the situation is more complex than portrayed -  there is truth to the huge numbers of children being killed in Gaza:



Here's another comparison that's been floating around.  Again, Israel's response to being attacked by Hamas is not remotely similar to Russia's unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine, but one thing we can see is how much more the media cares about dead kids when they have blue eyes and blonde hair:

[Dave Gray]

but this is the middle east where there is an eye for an eye... or taking it further, 5,000+ children killed for 222 hostages taken. When is enough, really enough?

I don't think this is a fair or answerable question.  Children aren't being intentionally killed as punishments.  They are being killed as a result of a larger war, where a terrorist army is hiding their people and weapons within their civilian population.  I don't want any kids dead.  1 is too many.  But that's what war is.

I'm all for Hamas being eliminated, but at what human cost?

The cost of defeating an enemy is the death of as many of that enemy until they unconditionally surrender their power.

Then what after that? What replaces them? Is it going to be even worse with another grudge against Israel, or are the killings going to go so far as to being an ethnic cleansing (or even Genocidal) sweep through Gaza? These are questions that I think even the highest placed minds in the political spheres immediately concerned have not seriously considered yet... and that should be a scary thought.

I don't have an answer to that, but who cares?  "We can't elimiate the Nazis!  Who might replace them?"  Nobody would say that about Germany.  Who gives a shit is who.

I don't think you're going to solve middle east peace, but I also don't think that's what's at play here.  Israel got attacked by a terrorist government, so I'm cool with them doing what's needed to remove that government from power.  People are going to die because that government is actually a terrorist organization that is sacrificing its own people for its cause, which sucks, but it is the reality.

[CF DolFan]

I don't think those in Gaza can leave.  They can't go in to Israel, there's ocean, and then there's Egypt, which was also closed off to them.

Not sure what it is like now but prior to the Hamas attack there were 63 gates in the West Bank barrier of which half are available for Palestinian use. Palestinians have always been allowed in. In the 80's and 90's it why so many bombings of young people in night clubs and such. They tightened down security afterwards but still allowed them in the country.

[Spider-Dan]

The West Bank is distinct from Gaza.
Gaza is the "open-air prison" where people essentially cannot leave, and have not been able to for many years.

[Downunder Dolphan]

I don't think this is a fair or answerable question.  Children aren't being intentionally killed as punishments.  They are being killed as a result of a larger war, where a terrorist army is hiding their people and weapons within their civilian population.  I don't want any kids dead.  1 is too many.  But that's what war is.

The cost of defeating an enemy is the death of as many of that enemy until they unconditionally surrender their power.

I don't have an answer to that, but who cares?  "We can't elimiate the Nazis!  Who might replace them?"  Nobody would say that about Germany.  Who gives a shit is who.

I don't think you're going to solve middle east peace, but I also don't think that's what's at play here.  Israel got attacked by a terrorist government, so I'm cool with them doing what's needed to remove that government from power.  People are going to die because that government is actually a terrorist organization that is sacrificing its own people for its cause, which sucks, but it is the reality.

Like you said, it's a bit more complicated... and yet a bit more simple than that.

What value is a life? A non-threatening, non-dangerous life? At the moment over there, it's pretty worthless. There are so many women and children killed and butchered in random bombings for what? A few hundred genuine bona-fide Hamas terrorists. Really?

You have men randomly lined up at gunpoint in the streets, stripped down to their underwear, and sent off to interrogation (and possibly, re-education, or to disappear, never to be seen again). At what point do people see any kind of sick irony in this?

I am all for the Israel nation defending itself, but this is something else entirely. It's horrible and inhumane. It deserves to be called out.