The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Read Armando's article (http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2012/02/1-mario-williams-de-houston-texans-the-texans-used-him-as-a-3-4-rush-outside-linebacker-last-year-but-i-think-his.html) and I think Armando is on to something. No, not that he doesn't like Manning, I still like Manning as a stop gap, but that he likes Mario Williams.  That makes a lot of sense to me as well. Put him on the other side of Cam Wake and watch them cause havoc. Would love to see that.

Also would love to see Laurent Robinson from Dallas in a Miami uniform. I watched him play enough to say that he was the most productive WR that Dallas had this year. Not the best, that distinction goes to Dez Bryant who has the best set of tools for a WR, but Robinson get's more out of the tools he has than does Bryant.

Mario Williams? God no. Great player, but NO! Coming off a year where the Packers, Patriots, and Super Bowl Champs the NY Giants all ranked in the bottom 5 in defense and yet all had outstanding seasons where they either were at the top of the NFL all year or won the whole damn thing in the end, why build up a stellar defense? It makes zero sense in this day in age. 

Build up a big-time offense and you can get by with a sub-par defense. And the odd thing is if Miami stands pat on defense or only loses Soliai, their defense isn't sub par. It's 6th in scoring defense and middle of the pack in total defense last year and would be around the same probably next year. An above average NFL defense, that's with adding nobody!! The ONLY way you get by with a sub-par offense (like SF did) is if you play in a god-awful division with cupcakes. Miami doesn't have that luxury! Otherwise build up the offense that's all that matters!

Give me Flynn or Manning.....give me a TE....give me another WR to throw too. Give me 1 decent o-linemen (I think Jerry or Murtha can fill one spot on the right side, they might both be able to fill both holes honestly but give me at least 1 new guy). That's where I want to spend salary cap money. The majority of the cap money! Defense is an after-thought.

Carl Nicks

I wouldn't break the bank for him. But i would rather spend it on Nicks than Mario Williams.

Nicks, Robinson, Flynn yes. If they could do that & still pick up Couples or Ingram in the draft. Either one of those two would be a cheaper & better investment than Mario Williams. If Nicks or Robinson want too much, there are other options.

I got news for all of you. This defense is average. Very average. Now, they have the players to be good to great, but they haven't shown it, not in the least.  Even if they brought in Manning and started scoring 25 to 30 points a game, the defense would start giving up 25 to 30 a game. There's no reason to score 25 when 20 will do. Both the offense and the defense need some more players if you want to compete for the division or even a wild card.

In this league an average defense is good enough! That's the point!

Miami's average defense wasn't "good enough." When the offense put up 20, the defense gave up 21; when they scored 10, the defense gave up 13. I wonder how many teams approached Miami with the idea, "if we keep it close until the fourth, the D will collapse late like it does every week." if they could have stopped anyone in the fourth quarter, Miami would have been a Wild Card team, not a top 10 draft team. The 6-10 can't be placed entirely-or even mostly- on the offense. Those 10 losses were a team effort on both sides of the ball. I would bet that Miami had a bottom 5 D in the fourth quarter last year. Thy have to do better than that, especially with the amount of talent they have and how much they spent on some of the additions. -EK

No it's not.  Look what the Giants did to the Packers in the divisional round.  Look at the NFC Championship game.  Look at the AFC Championship game.  Look at the Super Bowl.  To get deep in the playoffs, you need strong defensive play.

It's been proven that you can win in many different ways but having a good defense and a great QB seems to be the most successful. I woulnd't purposely put all my eggs in either basket.

Agreed, agreed, and......agreed. 

MikeO makes way too light of defenses in the NFL nowadays, regardless of how the rules have changed (yes, they favor the offenses, no doubt, but defense still matters...a lot).  You think the Denver freakin' Broncos were in the playoffs due to their *magnificent* offense and not due to their (actually pretty good by the end of the season) defense?  Yes, their defense let them down in the playoff game against New England, but really, other than the Giants and occasionally a team like the Steelers or the Ravens or us back in the day, are there many teams who have ever been able to stifle the Pats since the mid-2000's?  I think we both know the answer to that one. 

Then, you've got the fact that two of the four Conference Championship contenders are pretty much acknowledged league-wide as defensive teams (Ravens and Niners, of course).  Don't try to sell me on Flacco, either...he had one of his worst seasons, I believe, without going back to look at the stats.  Ray Rice is great, don't get me wrong, but for the most part, that team won because of defense.  I think we all know about the Niners this season, their play defensively speaks for itself.  And either one of those teams could have won and been in the Super Bowl over their respective opponent.  The way the games played out were reflective of such a statement.

Then you've got the Giants.  While you talk about the fact that their defense was in the bottom 5 or whatever (again, not taking the time to go to nfl.com right now to see their exact position) for the duration of the regular season, they sure as heck weren't playing like that come the last 2 or 3 games of the regular season and on into the playoffs.  Once again, I think that is fairly obvious and near a "fact" if you watched the team play in those games. 

Finally, you've got the Pats themselves.  While I dislike their team a lot, like most of us here, their defense really stepped up during the playoffs.  I'll give you, that's not saying much against the Broncos in the Divisional Round as above, but they played well again against the Ravens and, in spurts, against the Giants, who have a good offense.  Hell, they won the AFCCG due to a defensive play, not an offensive play!  Evans catches that pass with--what, 15 seconds left--and you think the Pats pull that one out?? 

Look, ultimately, I'm not trying to pile on, because I think all 3 phases of the game are greatly important.  With the rule changes over the past 5-7 years, I'll give you that the advantage is generally with the offense nowadays, so I would take a potent offense over an elite defense in general in 2012, but to just brush aside defensive play like it doesn't even matter anymore...is something entirely different.

/slight derail

The Giants defense was terrible in the Super Bowl. They let Brady complete 16 straight passes against them and JPP their best player on defense batted down 1 pass in the 1st quarter and did nothing the rest of the game. NOTHING! If Welker catches that easy pass and Brady takes a knee to win that Super Bowl....the Giants defense would have been DESTROYED in the media! They were awful vs New England. They couldn't stop Brady to save their lives in that game. Welker and Hernendaz with their Drops and with gimpy Gronkowski is what slowed the Pats offense down.  Nothing the Giants did.

Also, playing 1 or 2 good defensive games DOESN'T make you a good defense! It just means you played a good game. They were the 27th ranked defense for a reason!  They couldn't stop the Redskins this year! The John Beck/Rex Grossman Redskins....they got lit up by them TWICE! The defense was terrible all year and terrible in the Super Bowl!

So now we are counting the handful of "good plays" the Pats made on defense all year and that qualify's them as a good defensive team? Are you serious!!!

You can sit here and praise the Giants defense, bottom line is the numbers don't lie! And if you take the notion that the numbers aren't correct (which I disagree with but to play along in that theory) the numbers aren't off by "that much", that just makes them a "bad" defense and not a "god awful one." They were miserable in the Super Bowl and miserable all year. They had a good game here or there, but that doesn't qualify them as a good defense in any way shape or form.

I am not making light of defense or brushing it off to the side. But in a SALARY CAP era where the cap number shrinks now a bit, out of my Cap I am spending 65%-70% on offense and the rest on defense.  It makes no sense to invest heavily in defense. ZERO! Aside from Revis, nobody can cover in this league anymore. Nobody covers, you have pretty much 1 lock-down CB in the entire league.  I mean the Pats play a WR in the secondary and it really doesn't hurt them any worse than if they brought in some scrub CB off the streets. Every rule favors the offense in every way. There isn't one rule set up for the defense and the refs enforce the crazy rules in a crazy ways that helps the Offense even more than it should. On defense you need a couple pass decent rushers, some above average tacklers, and a bunch of guys who can run and chase guys down. You don't need the next Mike Singeltary or Revis....its nice if you draft a guy and he turns into that and falls in your lap. But I wouldn't spend big money on those types in free agency. That's my point.

Spend the $$$$$$$$$$$ on offense! That's what wins in this league! Teams can get to and win the Super Bowl with average at best or below average defenses! It's been proven. The 2 worst defensive teams were the Pats and Packers. They went 28-4 this regular season. 30-6 if you count the playoffs and one made the Super Bowl! The other WON the SB the year before! And GB plays in a tough Division and the Pats play in an average division.

P.S...The Broncos were in the playoffs because they played in a garbage division. Hell Denver lost their last 3 games (including loses to Buffalo and KC) and STILL got in the playoffs because everyone else in their division SUCKED so bad they were losing too. Denver doesn't help your argument at all.

It doesn't matter how you get to the playoffs. Just get there. We live in an era where a 9-7 team won the super bowl. An 8-8 team won a playoff game. And lady season a 7-9 team beat an elite QB. If all you want to do is dominate the regular season, then load up on offense. The Giants defense was injured during the season. So their yardage numbers can't truly reflect what they are capable of. During the playoffs, nobody scored 20 points on them. So, how can you say their defense sucked? You can't. New England established a "bend, don't break" philosophy that kept them fresh enough to step up in the playoffs. It's true that the rules are weighted towards the offense. At the same time, defenses always catch up. So why be a trend follower? Why not be a trend killer? Baltimore & SF were two plays from doing just that.

So wait, the Giants defense has BAD stats but is really GOOD

And the Dolphins defense with GOOD stats is really BAD

Yeah sorry, not buying it. But to each their own.

Are you kidding me? They scored 17 points! Only 15 more points then the Giants Defense! Their drives consisted of a safety, FG, 3 and out, TD, TD, 3 and out, INT, PUNT, END OF GAME. They scored on 3 of 9 drives and turned the ball over on 2 drives. That's FANTASTIC against the Patriots. I dare you to find anyone who did a better job of containing New England this year. Yeah, Brady got hot for those 2 TD drives, but other than that he wasn't very effective. Who DIDN'T think that Brady would take them down the field on that last drive? Certainly not Belicheck who LET the Giants score to give Brady enough time to do it. He didn't even cross mid field!

You're nuts MikeO. The Giants defense wasn't flawless, but they played well considering the offense they were matched against. And your forgetting the reason that New England only had 9 drives in the game, because their defense couldn't get Giants off the field and were almost doubled in time of possession. It was also the LACK of defense by New England that brought them down.

And JPP had 2 batted down passes, a tackle for a loss and hit the QB once which I think was on the play where the ball was picked off? Yeah, he did NOTHING. Next time try watching the game rather than just the highlights.

If the Giants defense is so poor and the Dolphins defense so good, why did New England score a combined 65 points against Miami in 2 games and only 37 against the Giants in 2 games? And it wasn't because Miami's Offense was so bad, because Miami scored 48 against New England and the Giants only scored 45 against them. How do you explain this MikeO?

Oh yeah, stats don't mean anything when they DON'T support your opinion.

Brady broke a Super Bowl record vs the Giants Defense....FACT!

If Welker doesn't drop the ball the Pats win and the Giants defense comes up short...FACT!

But if your whole defense on why the Giants are a good defense is that  I didn't watch the game, that's weak bro! Once again you are pointing out a "handful" of good plays and passing it off as them must being a good defense. When you can count the good plays on one hand it proves they aren't a good defense.

Once again, your failure to read is getting you worked up over nothing.  I never said the Dolphins defense was "so good" or "great" as you say. I just said they are better than the Giants and an above average NFL defense which is "GOOD ENOUGH" in this league!! That isn't an insane stance to take!  The Dolphins Defense is GOOD ENOUGH! There is no reason to keep investing in it as it currently stands. Miami can win and win big with this current defense! Teams (like the Giants, Pats, GB...etc) have won big with much lesser defenses! That's the point! The Fins defense isn't the 85' Bears or the 00' Ravens, or the Dungy's Bucs....NOT EVEN CLOSE AND NOBODY IS SAYING SUCH LIKE YOU ARE IMPLYING! In 2012 going forward they are a solid NFL defense, and upper half of the league NFL defense which is all it needs to be in this game these days.

And you want to cherry pick stats. Either the stats count or don't. If they count then the Giants are a bottom 5 defense and the Fins are an above average and the #6 scoring defense in the league. If they count then the Giants ARE the 27th team in total defense. If they don't count then you can make your case  of NE vs Miami for 2 games or NE for 2 games.And why NE for "common opponent" why not use Washington?!  But you can't cherry pick the stats you want to use and ignore the others. Which is what you are doing!

I didn't realize that was for the game winning touchdown?

It was the game winning play where if he catches it, they have a 1st down and they can run out the clock!  ::)

Pats had the lead and Giants only had 1 timeout. GAME OVER if he makes that play. GAME OVER!

It didn't need to be a touch down. If he catches that, that's the end of the game. The refs even said that when Welker dropped it, "Well, that was the game".

Brady broke a Super Bowl record and the Pats still only scored 17 points. Fact!
The infamous Welker drop happened on 2nd down. Fact.

The difference between the Giants defense & Miami defense is a pass rush. Solai is about to leave and Jason Taylor retired. That's why you invest in defense. The best way to attack Brady (elite QB in the division) is getting in his face. FACT. You can't sit back and hope you stop him.

The Pats have 2 stellar TE's. That is a match up problem. FACT.

Ignoring the defense will put the Dolphins right back here next year with people saying, "They need more offense."

This a rare opportunity where they can address both sides of the ball. Again, both.

So, in keeping in line with the thread...
Flynn is an option only if he signs for less than $10 million. Personally I would look at a 2nd rd pick to address the QB option.
The problem is with only about $16 million to play with and a top 10 pick, they can't "break the bank" and address other areas.

Weakest argument ever. IF Miami hadn't lost a game this year, they would have won the Superbowl. IF Matt Moore would have played as well as Drew Brees he would have been MVP. IF MJD sucked he wouldn't have won the rushing title. You can put "if" in front of ANY situation and create whatever outcome you want. That's not realistic. Regarding you having never said the Dolphins defense was great- you said in numerous threads how they were so "dominant" all year. Now they're only "good enough?" Here's an "if" for you- it Miami's defense hadn't coughed up FIVE 4th quarter leads this year, the would have been 11-5, not 6-10. That's not even close to "good enough." -EK

I think it is mathematically impossible to simply run out the clock with over 4 minutes still left on it. They had to get first downs or score still.

Gotta say, I watched the Superbowl too, and it seemed like Justin Tuck, Osi Umenyiora, and Jason Pierre-Paul had their moments making Tom Brady look uncomfortable.  Further, every time we beat the Patriots over the years, it seemed like Tom Brady was wearing Jason Taylor for half the game.  No pass rush, no chance.

On the flip side, what's it going to cost to get Mario Williams?  Are we talking $15 M a year?  Is he going to wreck the cap?  If so, Miami's not "one player away" and should keep that money to shore up QB, WR, TE, or RT.

Aha...a Super Bowl debate thread cleverly disguised as a Dolphins free agency thread.

 ???

I would really like to have Mario Williams, but he will probably be too pricey.

I think the cornerback from the Ravens, Webb would be a nice pick up.

I really want a healthy Peyton Manning, otherwise Matt Flynn.  I also wouldn't be upset with Josh Johnson competing with Matt Moore and possibly a second round QB.  Johnson is only 26 and has a ton of athletic ability.

Jermichael Finley, Dashon Goldson, Carl Nicks, Peyton Manning/Matt Flynn



assuming any of that is possible

I would like to see one of three people signed...

1) Peyton Manning
2) Eli Manning's older brother that isn't named Cooper
3) Archie Manning's second son

Peyton Manning would be instant relevancy. I don't care if its only for a year or two, but that kind of credibility boost would be awful nice for this franchise right about now.

If he can't throw to his left, which the media has intimated to be the case, Miami might as well sign Cooper.

I have heard good things about him.....can't remember his name though!!!!!  ;)

I find it funny. Damn near everyone on this board has said nasty and mean things about Dave Wannstedt and his "style" of coaching and running a team when he was in Miami. But the vast majority of you think just like him. Build up a defense and defense wins championships. It's all about defense.

Ya bash Wannstedt but you live and breath his "philosophy" and think just like him... it really is amusing. It just is

No one cares about that anymore MikeO, we've moved on.

There are some major players in the RB department that are potential FA.  Peyton Hillis, Ray Rice, Arian Foster and Michael Bush.  Even though RB isn't a need, I would love to get one of those guys in here.

Who is this "we" you speak on behalf of?! LOL LOL Give me a break!

No way we spend money on a RB this year. No way in hell. We got a RT, RG issue to sort out. A HUGE void at QB. Needs at TE and WR. On defense a pass rusher (probably will draft one though at 8 or 9) and maybe a CB issue before the Fins can even entertain paying big money on a RB!

RB is a luxury at this point not a need in any way shape or form

...and why can't we have our cake and eat it too?  I think we can fill those needs and get one of those RB.

WR is equal a need as RB...it's a luxury.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/lordthundergod/scoreit.gif)

I know WR is a bigger need than RB. We just drafted a RB in round 2 last year, RB isn't a need. Not this offseason.

Miami needs a WR to stretch the field. You "hope" Gates is that guy. But Hartline is a solid to marginal player, nothing special. Bess is what he is. Miami needs a big play WR far worse than they need a RB. You have Bush who missed games, coming of a 1,000 yard year AND he is in a contract year so he will be motivated!  RB isn't a need this offseason

I actually agree with you on the WR front. They need to be able to stretch the field.
At the same time, if they are able to address that right side of the line, the would solve the RB issue. Better blocking means higher rushing average.

Do you really think we have a chance at Dwayne Bowe, Vincent Jackson, Stevie Johnson or Mike Wallace?  It would be nice, but that's a lot of money tied up in the WR position between one of these guys and Marshall. 

I'd rather draft someone like Mohamed Sanu out of Rutgers.

No. None of those big name guys. Miami must look for a 2nd tier WR on the free agent market. Marshall makes too much money to invest in another big name WR. Miami needs a speed guy more than a big name guy and a big reputation.

Going the draft route is fine but I would look towards free agency first at that position.  The draft I would use towards DE, TE, and O-line.

Free agency I would use towards QB and then some WR and secondary help. Need more experience at both spots.

For the same reason, we don't have a chance at Ray Rice, Michael Bush, or Arian Foster.  They're gonna want mega bucks.  

I agree with Mike O.  We need a speedy threat opposite Marshall that can keep the safties back, cause defenses to play five defenders, and open up the running game.


Finley will probably get the franchise tag.  Nicks will probably be too expensive.  And after hearing the latest reports about Manning, I'd be more comfortable with Flynn.  It's all going to come down to what Philbin thinks of Flynn.  He knows more about the guy than any of us do.

That's fine to say and all, but who?  After those guys, second tier speed WR would be Ted Ginn or maybe Brandon Lloyd, who also might want big bucks.  There is a huge drop off from the Top WR free agents and the second tier guys...hell might as well be third tier guys.

I see MIA spending money on one big name FA this year.  I would want in this order:

Healthy Peyton Manning
Matt Flynn
Mario Williams
Arian Foster
Mike Wallace
Ray Rice
Dwayne Bowe
Carl Nicks
Ladarius Webb
Matt Forte

Those are the guys I like.  If I had to guess though, MIA may make a splash with Mario Williams only if a Manning/Flynn contract isn't too over the top.  Maybe Nicks or Wallace/Bowe.  Probably 1 QB in FA and maybe another big name (Williams/Nicks/Wallace/Bowe).

Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, Robert Meachem, Mario Manningham (probably will be too expensive though but ya never know), Harry Douglas, Early Doucet, Eddie Royal.......one of those types who wouldn't cost a ton and would be fine with the rest of our WR corp.

If you think Miami who just traded for Reggie Bush last year then TRADED up for a RB in Round 2 of the draft will spend big money on another RB this offseason you are fooling yourself. There is no chance of it happening. None!

RB's least of our worries....

NEEDS:  OL help and WR (speedy stretch the defence type) and of course NO> 1 QB.

Maybe I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but thinking about the Dolphins lining up next year with Peyton under center and B.Marshall/R.Wayne/D.Bess/R.Bush on the field makes me envision "Greatest Show on Turf"-type results.

I was playing devil's advocate a little with the whole RB thing.  The only point I was trying to make there was I see a need at WR almost as much as another RB.  I don't really think it is a need, but to each his own.  I could see the argument for another WR, I just don't agree with it.

Anyways, it seems Ryan Tannehill is being projected in the later half of the first round.  What do y'all think about trading down and taking him later in the first and stockpiling some picks?  Or is everyone set on either Manning or Flynn?  I'm a little torn.  On one hand, a healthy Peyton Manning would immediately make Miami an elite team, or a Flynn who produces like he did in GB will do the same.  On the other hand, stockpiling picks could fill some needs to make MIA a more complete team, while possibly grooming the future QB and giving a supporting cast to succeed.

A lot of uncertainty.  If it was up to me, I'd go with Manning or Flynn and draft the OT out of Stanford.  Pardon me if I seem I flip flop a lot around this time of year, but I can't help it :).

No problem with the flip-flop. Personally, I'm not sold on Flynn. I would love the idea of drafting RG3 without selling the farm to do it. I'm fine with Moore and drafting Weedon in the 2nd. Yes, he's "old", but he has the best arm in the draft. Picking up either Couples or Ingram in the 1st round solidifies the DL. Given all that, my priority in free agency would be OL & WR. With only $15-16 mil in cap room, $8-10 mil is my limit in free agency.

They don't need a wr.  Marshall is a good number 1, and bess/hartline and whoever are good enough.  To improve on them, they would need to spend way more more money than they should, and it won't be that big of an improvement.