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http://www.comcast.net/news/articles/national/2008/04/24/Officer.Shot/


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I hope they find the other guy.  In most states, killing a law enforcement officer is an automatic needle.

I am against the death penalty. it's not the government's job to kill its citizens

on a tangent, I wonder how many in the anti-choice team when it comes to abortions are for the death penalty, and if you see any sort of hypocrasy with that stance.

May this officer of the law's soul rest in peace.

This comment is so beneath you.

The death penalty is for guilty people.  Abortion is for the innocent.

The hypocrisy comes from those who want to spare the guilty and murder the innocent.

Wow.  Well said Bro. Well said.

As hard as it is, I must agree.  Good job, RTW.

3 police officers in Kirkwood (a suburb here) were shot to death by a guy on a rampage and nobody heard about it. 

Police have such a hard job. Sometimes I wish there was a way to make it easier on them. They really are (except for the bad ones) all heroes.

When 4 firemen died in Charleston, after the Sofa Super Store burned down, the whole country came together and healed the community. I wished the same compassion was felt everytime one of these brave men went down.

But, unfortunately, it's not like that. And that thread we had here the other week, the one where the police shot the guy 50 times, are the ones that make the national news.

Thanks for letting us know about it. Send a link if you have one so I can at least acknowledge them. Police officer deaths have been down in the past decade thanks to modern technology and better training but unfortunately Its going to happen to a couple Hundred every year.

Fau, I couldn't agree more about the philosophical inconsistencies of being pro-life and pro-death penalty. Please don't lump all pro-lifers together, though. The Catholic church has taken a very strong stand against abortion and the death penalty.

that's true .. they are pretty consistent in their views .. too bad main stream protestant America isn't

Well put.

The good thing is that taxpayers won't be paying for this guy's trial because other officers shot him full of holes.  You can Google it and find many articles.  Here is one:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23059784/

The mayor survived and has recently visited City Hall where it all happened.

 

So what do we do then about the person that he killed? He took his life didn't he? He set his expiration date. Some of us believe in an Eye for an Eye. Some of us NEED an Eye for an Eye for closure and to help us grieve. State Attor5neys Take the Victims and their families wishes seriously when deciding on seeking the Death Penalty. They are the only ones that have the RIGHT to decide.

God Forbid you lose someone close to you from a violent act and then tell me about the Pearly gates and all that shit .

Amen.

One of the differences here is that most people on the "right" won't change their view when it happens to one of their loved ones.

Heck, why aren't all repeat felons death-penalty eligible?  I'm still pushing for a sliding scale of "innocent 'til proven guilty".  That's great for your first or second offense.  After a dozen or so.... com'on.

I believe the death penalty should be used only as a last resort. In our society of SuperMax prisons and life sentences without parole, it's hardly the case that we have no choice but to kill those who have killed. Regarding your last point, I'd like to think that my convictions would help me overcome the desire to see someone die for harming someone close to me. I wouldn't expect that to be easy, but deeply held beliefs aren't there to get you through the easy times.

I just want to say one thing:

I'm against the death penalty and I'm pro-choice, but probably not for the reasons that most are.

I don't like when the two are compared (Fau's argument about inconsistencies about life, for example), because they are very different situations, driven by motivation.

It's easy to see the inconsistencies between the two if you're going off of the reasoning "protecting the sanctity of life", but it's really a cheap knock on either position.

My only point is that pro-lifers make the claim that life starts at conception because at that point, the fetus is imbued with a soul that's the basis for the whole life is precious conversation.

It seems to me that people that are religiously pro-life then suspend their own religion to be for the death penalty.

Defense5499 posted about an eye for an eye. I'll tell you something, "an eye for an eye" isn't a Judeo-Christian doctrine, it's from the Hammurabi code. It comes from the worship of Marduk.

I'm personally against the death penalty because i don't think that a government for the people and by the people, should be killing the people it's for and by.

Innocent life if precious.  Had Hitler not committed suicide would you have a problem with his execution?

Baby vs murderer/child molester/rapist/Jets fan - you don't see the difference?

I don't like it when people call a fetus, a baby.  They aren't synonymous.

But, that aside, again you're comparing two things that are unrelated.  A pregnancy is terminated for different reasons than an execution.  Innocence/Guilt is not a driving factor in abortion, while it is the sole factor in execution.

I think the point that Fau is trying to make is that the religious stance on the issue is that life is precious because of the soul.  And rapists, murderers, etc - still have a soul.  The justification for killing them is from man, not from God.  Whereas, the opposite reasoning is used in abortion cases.

in answer to your EXTREME scenario question..

I would not have a problem with the US government killing Hitler.

I'll let you try to figure out why based on:

Isn't capital punishment addressed in the Bible in addition to the "Thou shalt not murder" in the Ten Commandment?

While I question whether or not homicidal maniacs and child molesters have souls, for the sake of argument lets agree that they do - so both they and babies have souls.  One has done nothing to forfeit his/her time on earth, the other has.  

Isn't it the very existence of the soul that makes capital punishment NOT the end of one's existence?  If the condemned have a soul and get their appointment with their Maker for final judgement, then aren't we merely in charge of scheduling?

Just like Dave said an embryo is not a baby.  Its the same reason why an egg is not called a chick. 

I don't think people should abort healthy (babies, fetuses, whatever), but it is up to God to judge them, not me.

Women should not be forced to carry out a pregnancy and give birth to a baby who cannot survive outside the womb if they don't want to.  That is cruel and unusual punishment, IMHO.  I thought it would be something I would never do until this exact scenario happened to someone I know.  It changed my whole view on the subject.

So you're cool with our government killing non-citizens???

i'm cool with our government killing heads of state of countries that have declared war on us yes

I think that if prison was really punishment,i could agree with that.I say take away all the weight lifting,cable t.v.,internet access,college courses,etc.Put these criminals out "breaking up rocks"or something that is really "hard labor",give them just enough nutririon to stay healthy,and they would be too tired to stir up too much trouble at the end of the day.This would save the government tons of money because they wouldn't be big and powerful enough to beat up the guards therefore it would take less manpower to watch over them.For alot of these repeat offenders,prison is alot better than where they came from in the first place.If they have enough connections in the right gang,they can do their time,have sex,do drugs,learn how to be a better criminal,and get their degree....all on our tax money.

As soon as you can guarantee no innocent people will ever be wrongly convicted and executed, come talk to me and I will buy a ticket on your bandwagon, but until then, it is a no go. How much closure would a family get if someone else was wrongly convicted and murdered so they could feel they got their "justice" How do you make up for that colossal fucking mistake? Who should give up their life? And don't think for a minute this country has not executed wrongly convicted criminals in the past.

This is one of those ideal world vs real world issues.  Ideally, execution should be much less expensive than prison.  How much does a bullet cost? 

Hasn't DNA testing pretty much eliminated this fear? 

Prisons are full of innocent people ... just ask 'em. 

So how is it that you feel about Saddam and his practices again?....

Before I became a Police officer I spent about a year working in a Maximum Security Prison. (Had to work my way up) .  Anyhow the above post makes a good point. People in Prison for life go to General population and even though its a suckie life for us.......they adjust and its all they know so it becomes Life.  They get 3 squares a day, they have cable TV sports, computers, you name it. Yeah they fuck each other in the ass........but again after 10 years or so its all they know so its acceptable. Its a life.

Those on death Row do NOT get put into General Population . They spend their days in a 6x8 box day after day waiting to die. Most have stacks of legal papers higher then the ceiling and they spend their days trying to save their own necks like the cowards they are. After 10 years on death row they want to die. When was the last time you heard of a condemned person being forcefully dragged to the table? They want it over. They die slowly everyday and are forced to confront what they have done. Then they have to actually see the families and loved ones as they leave this earth for the last time.

See the Difference?   Death Row is for the living . Not the dead. No one has the right to tell the family of a person who was killed that they can't at least get satisfaction of seeing the bastard suffer and die. Especially those that sitting in an armchair without the slightest inkling of what they are feeling . They will never be the same for the rest of their lives.........that bastard does not deserve to find another life. He needs to be forced to come to terms with what he has done . That's never a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.

^ Two words...

Leonard Little

Actually an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is in the bible.  But it is not talking about punishments but reparations.  If my ox knocks down your fence I need to build you a new fence.  It may very well be the phrase from the bible that is taken out of context more than every other one. 

I also worked in the Court System as a Bailiff for 4 years and I can tell you Innocent people don't go to death row anymore.  They hardly did in the past as well, but they like to exploit the 1 out of 10,000 people that were.

Many Many different stages need to be completed before a person is put to death. Its not just a police officer's affidavit and a jury.  Death penalty cases take 2-3 years to get to trial. Evidence is closely scrutinized. Here in the state of Florida a person can not be put to death unless the act was particularly heinous or they need to have had a violent past as well and have been convicted of it.  NONE of this is allowed during the trial and only allowed in the punishment phase. In order for a person to be convicted of 1st degree murder the Jury needs to be unanimous. After the Trial and a guilty verdict , a Jury needs to have a majority vote for death over life and even then its up to the Judge to sentence the SOB.  After that he goes through 10-20 years of Appeals and extreme scrutinizing of every step of the way he was convicted. Its designed 100% for the Guilty Party to try and find a loop hole or anything that can not prove the innocence of the person........but rather that he was treated unfairly. Soon enough they become the victim.

Sorry NOTHING in life is perfect. If your looking for the perfect solution You will never find it so its an extremely bad argument. Its the best system we have and every death penalty case I've been involved with........9 at last count. All 9 were Guilty as Fuck.  Guaranteed. 100% . And they were all the biggest assholes at the county Jail while they were awaiting Trial. It was such a pleasure to see the DOC guy come get them after a guilty verdict and see them shackled up and headed to Death Row and not a Life sentence and a new life.

Did you ever get that help we talked about?   Going back to the past is a bad sign bro. heres some more help:  http://www.stressmanagementcenterlv.com/?SRC=TC1A1239799780

Its what I do. Let me know if I can help you anymore..........

Having also worked in the criminal justice system, I can tell you that a lot more innocent people go to jail than guilty go free.  OJ is the exception, wrongful convictions is the rule. 

Well if you Purposely (1st degree Murder) Kill a Father of 3 , You can't ever replace that. So Giving your life is right on Par with that. It's not even close to even because that act probably ruined several lives but if all we can get is your miserable hide as reparation......then so be it.

Maybe in the Boston area where everyone is a frigging convict.  Can I ask how you came upon this conclusion or is this just your opinion? Did you actually see court cases overturned ? And were there more cases overturned then people convicted?

I think you are so full of shit its coming out of your ears.  This is one subject I'm VERY involved in.  If there was ever a court such as you described we would know about it. Save your bullshit for dumb Dolphin Kill posts. Moron.

That is punishment not reparation.  If you kill a father of 3 (purposefully or for that matter accidentally) and you provide financially for their upbring that is reparation and that is what that section of the bible is speak about. 

BTW- I am actually pro-death penalty.

And although I don't look to the bible for all my political stances, there are other sections of the bible (at least the old testament) that do support the death penalty. That phrase however is not discussing punishment. Also whereas the teachings of the old testament support the use of the death penalty.  The new testament and Jesus is clearly opposed to it.  Jesus was a lot more clear on the topic that killing someone as punishment is wrong, then say his repealing the old testaments probation on eating pork.   

Although do support the death penalty, I believe it needs to used less and certainly needs to be administered more fairly.  The fact is a white person who kills a black person they are much less likely to be sentenced to death than vice versa. 

I don't know my bible very well, but I think Jesus was a "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and a "do not judge lest ye be judged" kind of a guy.  Of course, before you all pile on me, you can quote the bible to support almost anything.

Don't even go there. First you add a bunch of bullshit like innocent people being convicted then guilty going free without any proof other then your own twisted logic. Now you want to bring Race into this.  No wonder Boston is such a fucked up town.

Going to jail is not the same as being executed.  ;)

HAHA, wow you are naive. I am fully awae of how the system works, I have degree in criminal law, and my father is a retired officer, but thanks for the schpeil.
It is well documented that innocent people were sentenced to death, especially black men in the south, for decades.
Just the fact that you are alright with state sponsored murder of innocent people, just to get some revenge speaks volumes as to how and why innocent people, and the mentally retarded  have wound up on death row, and why we should not need it currently.
But hey why don't you read Beccaria, the guy who's writings on criminal courts and rights was adopted almost word for word by our founding fathers when they created our system, and see why he was against the death penalty, having seen it abused.

Isn't this one of those stats that is misinterpreted?

It's like saying cops are more likely to be killed in a routine traffic stop than a shoot out.  It's true, more cops are killed in traffic stops than shoot outs ... because they perform about 10,000 traffic stops for each shoot out they're involved in.

Another one is that 90% of traffic accidents occur within 20 miles of your home.  That's because 90% of your driving occurs within 20 miles of your home.

You are a moron. So's your dad for not blowing the load in the sink the night you were hatched. Why don't we just go back to the 17th century as well? Black men were killed then as well. Since when did the death Penalty issue even become a race issue? Because Anti Death Penalty activists don't have ANY OTHER foot to stand on. I just wish you people could try to make a point without going there just once. Just try to introduce facts instead of deflecting the issue with Race baiting.  It doesn't matter what color you are. If you kill with intent you need to die. Its that simple. If 10 Blacks commit Murder or 10 Whites so be it. 

I reluctantly agree.

Hmmmm....

You know.... let me try something....


Is it just me or does that work for a lot of issues?

No.

If it were the NUMBER of black men vs. white men executed, then yes, it would be.  But it's the discrepancy in  PERCENTAGE of death sentences between blacks and whites that's so large.

*political incorrectness warning*

I have no dog in this fight.  I think all repeat offenders should be done away with.  I merely consider it taking out the trash.  However, I think we need to be careful about perpetuating/reinforcing the mentality of victimhood.


"Moreover, statistics show that the number of minorities who receive the death penalty is disproportionate to their composition in the general population." (link (http://www.msccsp.org/publications/death.html))
The racial composition of the general population is not the proper measuring stick.  I don't want to see a quota system for the death penalty based on the general population.  If there is going to be a racial quota for the death penalty it should be based on violent criminals.  We always seem to never hear about percentage of the general population and not the percentage of crimes committed in discussions such as these.  If those numbers are as equally disproportionate then yes, we have a problem.

Here's the first citation I found:
(link (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/angel/procon/haagarticle.html))

I'm not suggesting a racial quota.

I don't support the death penalty for a multitude of reasons.  One of those reasons is that the systems is unbalanced towards the way it treats different races.  With something as serious as life/death, I don't think that's just.

But that's not really the only thing -- or even the driving factor for me.

I think that it's ineffective and not cost-efficient.  We can have that "real world vs. ideal" argument right here.  If you want to find a serial killer guilty and shoot him on the spot, that's one thing.  But it's not how the system works -- the appeals process and everything that goes into it costs more than it should.  But it does.

The biggest problem I have with the death penalty though is simply that there will be some number of mistakes.  And life/death is too serious an issue to allow for any mistakes, in my opinion.

 


Sorry. Once again NOTHING is perfect. But the Majority of People I have seen on death row and the 9 I was involved with ALL had written confessions, physical evidence , Video Tape and /or EyeWitnesses. They couldn't have been more slam dunk guilty. Just burying your head in the sand for an absolute perfect system is not a Valid Argument.  The Jury's I've seen were fairly picked by both sides and contained Men and Women as well as all races and age types.

As long as 12 Men and Women from all kinds of race  and backgrounds can come together unaminously and to the same conclusion........and then they can also select the death penalty over Life in prison........What more proof do you need?

It's not valid because you don't deem it valid?

In something as serious as death, I think that the system has to be perfect.  Because it can't, and errors happen, I think you should err on the side of caution.  It seems pretty valid to me.  You don't have to agree, but damn...it's not like the concept doesn't make sense.

But there are lots of other reasons, too.  Above is just one of them.

- hypocrisy
- skewed towards class
- not cost effective
- against the very concept of government

I know people won't care too much about my opinion, but i am pro-death penalty for the most part, if we are 100% sure the person in question committed a murder, then i am for the death penalty, any less and i am bit skeptical.

on the original topic, I am thinking of being a police officer, i haven't decided if i want to work toward being local or state, i have been doing some research for being a Maine state trooper, i want to work toward being a detective.  this story proves the job is very dangerous.  But death doesn't really scare me so much, if it happens, oh well.

Bsmooth...save your typing and just argue with me.  This guy is beyond stupid.  Take his awesome arguing as an example.

http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php?topic=10589.msg109582#msg109582



Can you elaborate on the hypocrisy and against the concept of government aspects?

As far as being skewed towards class, are death penalty eligible crimes skewed towards class as well?

Defense5499 - is there a reason why everything has to be such a hard stance with you?  I think I have lost count with you calling this person a moron, that person an idiot, someone should have jerked off into a sink.

That's an awful lot of anger towards people that disagree with you.  If you snap that easily on a message board I wonder what happens when someone doesn't cower at your feet when you're on patrol?

You were a prison guard, a bailiff and now a - well, I'm not sure.  I'm going to assume a patrolman.  I hate to be the bearer of bad news here but that doesn't make you an expert on the death penalty nor give you the right to be as 'on the attack' as you are in this thread.

First - direct comment to me: You said that you hope I never experience a violent loss.  When / if i do I will drop my "he'll meet his maker" stance and I would want the death penalty.  I say this - you do not know me nor what I have and have not experienced.  I HAVE experienced violent loss and I am willing to bet it's more than most people on this board.  I was eight years old and my best friend, standing next to me, took a stray bullet in the head.  He died in my arms while two older people tried to revive him.  By the time I was 15 years old I had lost four of my best friends to gang violence.  Wrong place at the wrong time.  My stance remains the same.

You have spoken about your experience, I'll tell you mine in case you do not know.  Officer.  CID.  18 years experience between my duty as an MP and CID.  I have had to work hand in hand with civilian police - people in the military break the law as well. 

Bosnia:  A fellow Nato officer is shot and killed by a sniper and we are able to quickly ascertain the location of the sniper.  My platoon secures the building and I secure the suspect.  A fellow officer had just been killed in cold blood.  He's a married man, left behind two kids and a wife.  Married less than three years.  I knew damn well his punishment would not fit the crime going on.  It would have been entirely too easy for me to take care of that situation myself and not one person would have questioned it.  I probably would have had a letter of accommodation placed into my file.  A highly decorated officer with three tours of duty in conflict areas securing a sniper suspect in hot  zone?  Above suspicion, plain and simple.

It's not up to me to decide.  Turns out the guy was killed in prison by a fellow inmate while awaiting trial.

My point?  Your experience with our lovely justice system doesn't qualify you as a person that can take such a hurtful stance with people that disagree with you.  I advise you to stand down and allow other people to have an opinion. 

At the end of the day - I'm a former cop.  I have family in law enforcement.  My sister in law is in the academy right now, she was hired on 10 March.  Many of my former unit members are cops.  Of the eight groomsmen in my wedding, four are state police detectives.  I understand anger towards losing a mate.  We just had two Portland cops come under fire during a routine traffic stop.  They returned fire, suspect killed.  I would have hated to see anything happen to those two young men.  I get your anger.  I understand that you are pro-death penalty and I also understand why.

Your actions towards those that disagree with you isn't acceptable.  You need to take a deep breath.  I don't know how long it's been since you left the academy but I am worried the socialization aspect of your training needs to be revisited.

It's a message board on a computer screen.  Take a step back and think about what you're saying on it.

Sure, I'll elaborate for you.  But it's not really a point I can argue -- it's just my opinion on things.

I think that as a society, we put a value on human life.  Even on things like abortion, where I'm pro-choice, I understand the battle.  I get the other side.  It's a gray area.  So, with that value placed on human life, and with the goal of having people not take that from others, I find it kind of hypocritical to take life as punishment for taking life.

Not a biblical man, I don't put value in the "eye for an eye" concept.

As for the "against government", I think that it's the government's job to protect its citizens, even those that don't follow the rules.  I think that killing its own citizens isn't the place of a government.


In terms of the numbers of cases, I'm sure they are.  But, again, talking about percentages, a wealthy, well-educated man is much less likely to get death than someone who might not have the same means, for exactly the same crime.  I realize that this is a slippery slope, and that the same can be said about prison sentences.  But, I feel that a death sentence is too serious to allow for this kind of uneven justice.

Another thing that I didn't mention before is that I think it actually creates more suffering.  The family of the one put to death -- they then become victims.  You can say that it's the fault of the one put to death, and you'd be correct, but it still creates more suffering.

You can tell your insecurity because you always seem to be asking for help and want to team up with others because your too stupid to make a valid point on your own.
Maybe if you tried to make a point instead of just attacks people would take you more seriously. Did you call that number? Nothing to be ashamed for needing help bro.

Its not Valid because its impossible. So choosing an impossible task as a defense is invalid.  As far as the Race baiting goes........it reminds me of an IA investigation on another officer in my dept a few years back.

He gave a Black woman a ticket for blowing through a stop sign. She and her Lawyer Husband thought they would investigate the officer instead of just admitting guilt. (He had her on Video Tape btw  ;) ) They found that over 90% of his tickets issued were given to Black people and minorities and filed a Civil action against the Dept.

The Dept's defense was very simple. Yes he does seem to ticket people of color more often........but he is assigned in the North part of the county. The North Part iof the county is made up of mostly African Americans. Who do you think he is going to pull over!?  ::)

The Cased was dismissed and they scrapped her Ticket just to make her go away.

My Point is most violent crimes don't happen in wealthy Suburban neighborhoods. Sure crimes of passion happen and whites commit Murder. But the Majority of Blacks killed in America today are Black on Black crimes. Should we let them go to even the score on white offenders? Or do we take it by a case by case basis and let the hammer drop where it may?

Using color as an excuse is a crutch that the American people are getting tired of. Its why Obama will never win the presidency of the United States of America if he wins the nomination. Too many people are tired of special treatment and reverse racism.

What you speak of reeks with the same sentiment.

I'm growing tired of repeating myself.  You don't understand the math.  I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but that's the bottom line.  I'll explain it one more time, and then I'm done.  I'm not an algebra teacher.

Of course your statement makes sense.  90% of tickets to blacks in a 90% black population makes sense and a racial claim in unwarranted.

That is not the same as what I'm saying in regards to the discrepancy with death row.

I'm going to use numbers I make up simply to illustrate the point.  I don't have the real data.

Lets say that 500 black men commit murder.  50 of them are executed.  That's 10%.
Then, lets say that 200 white men commit murder.  20 of them are executed.  That's also 10%.

Even though 50 > 20, the percentages match up, so the system is fair.

However this isn't what's happening.
If 500 blacks commit murder and 50 are executed, while  -- (10%)
200 whites commit murder and only 10 are executed -- (5%)

This is what's happening.  It's not the discrepancy in total executions that troublesome.  It's the discrepancy between those that are executed vs. those that are not, within the same race.

And this is simplified.  When you start using the race of the victim as well, it's even more apparent.

----


I understand that the race-card is overplayed.  However, that's not to say that racism still doesn't occur sometimes.  I believe that the death penalty is one of those places, and the data supports that.   It's a shame that people cry wolf, like in your ticket situation above, because it takes away from cases where it's actually happening.

It's ignorant to cry race on every issue, but it's as ignorant to deny that race plays a part in some things.

You'd make a good algebra teacher.

If what you say is true, then yes, it is a problem.  However, I don't remember seeing any percentages such as your second example, only the raw numbers as in your first example.

The pragmatist in me wants to suggest that we just execute 'em all and let God sort 'em out, but I don't want to be accused of stealing 5499's cheese.   


Exactly. 

I believe that this is how people like Jessie and Al actually contribute to racism.  I remember a time when allegations of racism were met with a horrific gasp.  Now they're more likely to be met with roll of the eyes.

I don't think anyone can prove others' points better than you can without even knowing it.  Forty something years old and can't even respond to comments coherently.  Again...forty something.  Wow...

Edit to add: Yea, I'm the one that isn't taken seriously around here.  You're in your forties and no-one gives a shit about you or what you have to say.

And its YOU'RE as in YOU ARE not YOUR!!!!  :D You're in your forties and everyone else on this board is smarter than you.  (see?)  LOL...too easy

Look....... depending on what side of the argument you are on anyone can make up percentages or bend them to fit their point of view. 

For arguments sake lets say your percentages are on the money.  Whats to say taken by a case to case basis , that the amount of Blacks that were executed didn't deserve it?   


Take it anyway you want. If your against it , your most likely to believe anything you read or hear . I'm for  it so I guess I'm not. Fair enough.

But I have spent time with these SOB's. I've had long conversations during Jury Trial's and I can tell you these earth is better without them. The Prison system is better without them. Just separating society from them is not enough. Their very existence effects everyone around them.

^^I actually respect your stance on this.  I think it's warranted in some cases, I personally would like to see extreme caution in those cases.

I'm not saying whether or not they deserved it.  I'm saying that the fact that they were black caused them to face death more often.  Over a sample size so large, it's a statistical impossibility to just be bad luck.



No, I don't concede that.  I am not creating stats to fit my viewpoint.  I created my viewpoint because of the stats.  I have changed my position on issues over the years, when I found new information.  I do not ignore information when its inconvenient for me.   I'm not simply trying to win an argument.

Are you trying to say , That if a White man and a Black man committed the same exact crime under the same circumstances........that the black man is more likely to get the higher punishment because of his color?  I'm sorry Dave........But I have to strongly disagree.  I've sat through Jury selections. Hundreds of them. Do you know that in order to dismiss a black person from a jury panel you HAVE to give a race Neutral reason?  Such as .......the person made a comment on such and such. But to dismiss a white person all that is needed is your saying you don't like the person. The System goes out of its way to make sure that its a fair trial. Most of the time against the Victim's rights. I've seen so many things that go in the defendants favor that its not even funny. So many State Attorney's choose to go for life instead of death because the fight is so expensive and HARD.  That's the way Pro lifers want it. But when the fight is worth it and it goes the distance its because the person is a Guilty SOB and he deserves it.



If your percentages show that more Blacks are convicted and sentenced to death......fine then. But You can not prove to me that its because they were Black.
You can think that because your against the Death penalty and it gives you another tool to use against it, but you can't prove it.






I did not mean to imply you made anything up. I apologize if I gave that impression. I just meant that you choose to look at the percentages and see something that I don't because of the way you feel about it.
 

That is precisely what I'm saying, and statistical data backs it up.  There's nothing to disagree with.  Numbers are numbers.


I don't mean to diminish your life experience, but what does your experience sitting in on hundreds of trials have to do with the percentage of blacks that are executed vs. whites?  You make some points about racism, but it's for a different issue entirely.  It's sounds like you are angry at reverse racism in the system, and you have a valid reason to be, but it doesn't give you the right to dismiss racism in the system as well, when it occurs.


What do you think proof is?  If the numbers support a higher percentage of blacks being convicted for the same crime, that is proof.   That's statistical evidence to make that claim.  That's the only proof that we can have.  Evidence.

Now, you can question the statistics themselves, as to whether or not they're tainted or valid, but assuming that they're correct, what's to argue?

Another thing -- You come across very angry.  You've called them "SOBs" several times in this post, which makes me think that you're having more of an emotional response than a logical one.   In fact, it appears that your experience in witnessing cases makes you less rational as you're vested in the outcome.  You make a bunch of points that while they may be true, are unrelated to the point.

My position is a difficult one to take.  I'm essentially protecting the rights of the total dregs of society, in the hope of protecting the rights of a few that may not be guilty.  But I think that's important to do.

What your data is not saying is the reasons and the circumstances behind each case. Just saying he was black and executed doesn't cut it. For instance......A Black man stabs someone to death and a white person stabs someone to death. The Black man gets death Row while the white one gets life. There are So many other factors that lead up to death row. That's what you are dismissing.  Did the Black guy stab once or 10 times? Was sex involved? What was the age and sex of the victim? Did the Black guy have a criminal History of violent crime?  Its easy to look at a bunch of numbers and make a judgemental assessment. You know NOTHING of the cases or the actual crimes or the people involved.




 
   

Please don't judge me by a few words written on a forum. You know nothing of me , and what I'm like.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. I have a unique perspective into a lot of issues and I just thought you all would like to see a different side of what you may read or hear about on TV.  One thing I have come to realize through life experience and dealing with so many different people on a daily basis is there are 3 sides to every story..........Yours , mine and the Truth.

I know guys like Las Vegas are just too dumb to know any better  but I expect more from you . Its your place. Your rules. But If we can't discuss this without getting personal let me know and I'll just stay on the Dolphin boards. No harm done and at least we can remain friends.

Again, forty something and thats what he can put together.

I'm dumb yet its too dificult for you to grasp the elementary school break down of Dave's point without feeling attacked.  So since at your age you're not full of wisdom I wonder what the other alternative is?

You are flat out incorrect, and I'm tired of debating something that isn't debatable.

It's the laws of statistics.  In a single case, or even in a handful of cases, there can be circumstances that will skew percentages.  But in a sample size as large as we have, all of those other factors average out.  It's the basic scientific method.  Take a large sample set and change only one variable to make a conclusion about it

If you are unable to accept this basic principle, then I cannot converse with you any further...it's making my hair fall out.

I'm not saying you're wrong about your opinions on the death penalty.  You can support it and that's fine.  But you are wrong about reading statistical data.  You can argue that the data isn't legit (shit, I haven't even presented the data), but if the numbers are correct, you can't ignore the conclusion.

Maybe you misunderstood.  I'm not attacking your character or saying that you're acting inappropriately towards me.  I'm saying that by the words you choose, that you are clearly emotionally tied to this issue.  You are vested in the outcome because you see it so regularly.  I was merely suggesting that maybe you are unable to be completely objective because of it.

That's all.

(Although, on a side note -- please cool it with the personal attacks on others.  I've had several complaints from other posters.)

And I think thats the Problem. Its VERY debatable and an extremely one sided conclusion. 

What it comes down to is I'm involved in the System. When I see the result of someones actions I guess I tend to be less forgiving then others that just look at a bunch of numbers.  Lets Agree to disagree. I never set out to change your mind but I hope I presented a different point of view.

[quote author=Dave Gray link=topic=10589.msg110008#msg110008 
(Although, on a side note -- please cool it with the personal attacks on others.  I've had several complaints from other posters.)
[/quote]


Just look back at this thread alone and I have several other examples if you would like them. Then tell me where the problem is.

Slight hijack here - I'm curious what age has to with anything?  Do I agree with Defense's stance on this topic?  No.  I feel that he and Dave are actually communicating fairly effectively on a topic where neither will back down.  You're allowing your personal dislike for someone to cloud your vision on what that person is saying - and then you're using his age is a scapegoat to try to further your point.  I take a little offense at that, I'm 37.  There are quite a few of us late 30's, early 40's guys in here.  Using someone's age as a fighting tactic isn't appropriate.  You don't agree with him, he doesn't agree with you.  As it's not appropriate for Defense to make comments such as "your father should have jerked off in the sink" it's also equally as off color to bring something in, such as age, that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Outside of the personal barbs - you both are making valid points.  It's a good conversation otherwise.

Guys in their mid-20s know everything.  Just ask 'em.  Were any of the older guys here any different? 

The world is very black and white BEFORE you fully experience it.  In many cases you're just a fews year out from the shelter of your parents, and often not all the way out financially.  It's easy to young and idealistic.

Fair enough.Points well made and  I apologize for that remark.  Its just that I see race used as an excuse so much for so many things that when its presented at all I guess I can tend to not look at it fairly. To be honest and I really thought about the Topic before........Maybe my problem is I'm seeing the Whole discussion through the 9 cases that I dealt with personally.  Trust me when I tell you all 9 of those cases were well deserved. None were racially motivated, 6 blacks 2 whites and a Hispanic. All males. None of them are even close to getting executed but I have seen 2 back on appeal. I testified in 1 case.  It gives me great pleasure in knowing all 9 are sitting in a 6x8 basically waiting to die rather then living out a new life in a Max. security Prison learning a new Trade.

But What I'm trying to say is just because those 9 all really deserved it........I really have no personal knowledge of the other Thousands of cases in America. I'd like to think that the rest of the Law Enforcement and the State Attorneys who deal with those other cases put as much Time and effort as we did and felt as strongly as I did before choosing to ask to take another persons life.  I will sleep just fine doing what I did.

I am actually enjoying the debate between you and Dave.  I know Dave feels he is starting to repeat himself a little, but other than that it's a well spirited conversation.  Kudos, says I.

I think I've said all I have to say on the subject.  At this point, we're not even debating the death penalty, we're arguing the scientific method.  If I cannot get you to acknowledge that, then I think we're done here.

Good convo, though.  Catch you on the flipside.

It became an issue because more poor blacks have been executed percentage wise than whites, especially in the south. This is historical fact.
But I guess your nine case history is representative of death penalty application nationwide throughout the history of jurisprudence in this country. I guess the moratorium on death penalties in states due the the number of wrongly convicted people is just liberal judges throwing a bone to those whacky anti death penalty people.

Age has nothing to do with content of what is being said or what is being argued.  Calling people dumb, stupid, morons and they should have been aborted (more or less) hardly comes across as something a 40 year old would use as a defense.  That is all.  Its hard not to notice when 90% of a person's posts include some form of attack.  The fact that its coming from a middle aged person is astounding to say the least.

With that being said; Runz, is there anything more "black" and "white" to generalize everyone based on what you've experienced in life or what path you took.  Despite what you may think or how I come across I don't know everything and believe me, I'm fully aware of it. 

Yes. I've admitted I may have been looking at this through the perspective of the people I've dealt with both in the Prison system and on a Law Enforcement level. But I still believe that just numbers doesn't prove that the people that were executed didn't deserve it.  The way I look at it and this is the Crust of the Problem for me......Is instead of looking at the whole picture and dividing it up by numbers and percentages, Did each person Black or white deserve the penalty of death? Why should it matter at all the color of the person and that more were black or white? Did each person no matter what race they were.......deserve it? That should be the only question........unless you are just really against it and are LOOKING for other excuses to condemn it.

While I have you here I apologize for the remark I made. Some of the things you said in Post #44 I took the wrong way.  You kinda accused me of some things in that post and brought Race into this out of nowhere but it brought the thread to a low point so I apologize.

 
This from a person who thinks a drunk driver (Leonard little) deserves the death Penalty. I think the above statement is an understatement.  ::)

You misunderstood my point.  You were making a case for the death penalty based on giving the satisfaction to loved ones of a person who was abruptly taken away by another person.  I am against the death penalty.  I was just pointing out a little inconsistency in your argument.  But that my friend is the true understatement. 

What about the loved ones of the convicted?  Why should they be made to suffer?  The convicted does not suffer anywhere near as much as their loved ones when someone is executed.

I keep getting told this but I've never been shown the data.

No doubt they are Victims as well. But its their loved one that committed the act. The convicted will have time to make peace with his entire family, get his wishes known and is given every opportunity to do so. They are even given a last night to meet with them all and say good byes. That's something the Victim or his family never got.

Can you do that by actually taking the time to point out the inconsistency and trying to actually prove a valid point? Or is that asking too much? Cause.......nobody here has a clue what your talking about at this point.   :|

I realise that the victim never got that, but the loved ones of the accused still have to suffer their death.  They didn't do anything.  So what if they get to say goodbye.  It doesn't make it any easier and it doesn't bring back the victim.  I used to be for the death penalty, but I am not anymore.  

Clear enough?

Just a wild guess.  You're the only one who read both threads and didn't know what I was talking about.

Sorry. Can YOU please put together a sentence that spells out exactly what you are getting at?  I know what I said. Just re posting the whole quote and stating......... just ain't gonna cut it. Come on! I know there is an actual original thought buzzing around that brain of yours.  Take a moment and try not to make every sentence you make a dig or an insult just trying to get me.  Take a deep breath and lets just see you express an original thought just once and I'll be the first to stand up and applaud.  :|

Wow.  I've said all I need to.  I'm not climbing Everest/getting you to understand something any further than that.

I'm asking for a sentence!?  A Thought. Anything but a dig or an attack or a cut and  paste.  What are you trying to say? Trying to convey?  Its quite simple actually. If you can't do that, fine. Then Go away.