The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I'm going with Philly's suggestion and continuing the discussion here. 

Grabbing Ginn over Quinn was a major blunder on Cam Cameron's part, and the first of many signs that I saw that this guy was not a good coach. 

Having Anthony Alabi working with the first team offensive line all through training camp was another.  This guy rode the pine for two years, and only played in two games. 

Having Ronnie Brown return kickoffs in the preseason, taking a night off from coaching in the final preseason game, the guys sucking win in the 4th quarter against Washington, the list goes on and on. 

What sealed my opinion of him was the way he singlehandedly blew the Houston game. 

Tommy I agree that Cameron made a blunder in the draft, however I was never sold on Brady Quinn either. Cameron made many mistakes, and it really cost us allot particularly a 1-15 season. But Brady Quinn can't even win the starting job in Cleveland, the Browns signed Derek Anderson to a longer contract. It appears that the deal that went down in san Diego is going on in Cleveland. I think Ginn has potential, if he can learn to run good and clean routes, but I would have never drafted in the 1st round at the 9th spot.

  I was not a Ginn fan.  In fact he was the one player I was 100% against Miami drafting & uttered the words  " WTF" when I heard Miami drafted him.  I viewed him as a Desmond Howard type player.  Plus he looks to be way too frail. In fact I voiced my opinion about how much I hated the pick.

However, I put my biased opinion aside once the season began & watched him as a rookie Wr last year & understanding he was raw.  I came away impressed & encouraged with what he did.

Ginn actually caught the ball.  If he dropped an easy pass I do not remember seeing it.  Ginn may never be worth the No. 9 selection, but if he can be equal to a Joey Galloway early days then I will be happy. 

I was prepared for Miami to draft Quinn, even though I was also against that.  Just flat out too much hype for what I viewed as mediocre play & poor accuracy.

I wanted Okoye or Willis ( But a LBer that high is a question for me )

I agree with you 100% on this. I was all for Quinn. I even was on the phone with Brian and Dave every few minutes during the draft, anticipating him falling to the Fins.
But just like you, once I saw Ginn live (at the Eagles game), I became a fan. His speed is incredible. If everything we are reading is accurate, he is learning to play full speed and we will see the results this season.

I didn't want Quinn or Ginn, but we got the better deal out of the two I feel. I can't believe some of the arguments I have seen for taking Quinn. One person actually has gone on to say that if Quinn is a complete failure and Ginn isn't that it would still be a mistake for not taking Quinn. That is just pure craziness.

I didn't think Quinn looked good, from his highlights.  His throws were too lofty and much of the stuff that looked like great throws in college would be picked off in the NFL.

I thought that since he was supposed to go early, that he would be good value at 9, but that was it.

I think that we reached on Ginn, regardless of how he pans out.  We could've gotten him later, I bet.

I thought there were "reliable sources" claiming that the Texans would've grabbed him at #10?

Oh well, I was surprised at the Ginn pick and am nowhere near sold on him now. That doesn't mean I think Cam blew it. He may well have, but I'll reserve judgment. Despite what others have said, I don't believe Cam should have played it safe and gone with a "popular" player. That's cowardice. If your own research and analysis says this guy's the best, grab him - unless you believe you can get him or a player almost as good much later.

As for not picking Quinn... sorry, I'm happy on that account. I just don't get a good feeling about Quinn when I see him play.

I think one of the major reasons Cam took Ginn is that there weren't any other offensive players to grab, if you don't grab Quinn (and. let's face it, the next 12 teams passed on Quinn as well). The only one was Marshawn Lynch and THAT would have pissed me off completely. Considering our needs (and without resorting to 20/20 hindsight), I think we should've gone defensive tackle or end. Who knows what Cam's draft board looked like, but Amobi Okoye and Adam Carriker were the next players picked at those positions.

In addition to my questions about Ginn as a player, I more question the Ginn pick as a position.  To draft a kick returner, when you have so many pressing core needs, seems strange.  It's the same way I felt when we drafted Fletcher some years back.  It wasn't so much that I had a problem with Flethcher, as with drafting a corner, when we had Sam Madison, Patrick Surtain, and no offense.

Which again, goes back to Cameron's complete incompetence as a head coach.  He was worse than Wanny.

To keep referring to him as a "kick returner" pretty much means you have blinders on in my opinion. I wasn't thrilled either, but don't you see that he had the most consistent hands and caught virtually everything catchable?

Considering Cam Cameron referred to him as a kick returner.....

But he didn't only call him a kick returner like you guys are. That is revisionism.

I dont understand the Ginn apologists. No matter how great a niche player he becomes you do not pass up a franchise QB if you're the Dolphins in that draft. We were in the need of a cornerstone & went for luxury picks

  I was highly critical of the selection of Ted Ginn Jr.  However, as time passed and the season went along, Ginn won me over and I thought "the Dolphins may have something in this kid."  He's raw in his route running, but what rookie WR isn't?  The one thing he did well that none of the other Miami receivers did was CATCH THE BALL.  He literally caught everything that was thrown his way.  As Philly alluded to earlier, Ginn's speed is incredible.  You saw that speed on some of his punt and kick returns.  He may not be as shifty or quick as Devin Hester, but he hits open field...  see ya later.

  Now as far as Brady Quinn goes.  I didn't believe the Dolphins would've had a shot at Quinn.  I thought that the Browns would snatch up Quinn with that 3rd overall pick, Joe Thomas would've gone to the Cardinals, and Miami would wind up with Penn State OT Levi Brown.  Well, that didn't happen.  Personally, out all the quarterbacks in that 2007 Draft Class, Michigan State's Drew Stanton was the one quarterback I wanted the most.  When people talk about Brady Quinn on here, what bothers me is how people can actually sit there and say: "Well Quinn is a better pick, Ted Ginn Jr. sucks.  Blah, blah, blah."

  What are you people basing this on?  Both Ginn and Beck have played more meaningful NFL snaps than Brady Quinn has.  How can you say Brady Quinn is the better pick when you have nothing to base that on?  You have NO arguement, none whatsoever.  Until Brady Quinn sees more meaningful playing time in the regular season, there is no basis for comparison between Brady Quinn vs. Ted Ginn Jr.  One game, 3 completions, 8 attempts, 37.5% Completion Percentage, 56.8% QBR.  This is supposed to tell me that Quinn was the better pick?  I can't tell anything from those stats!

  Finally, just because Cam Cameron called Ted Ginn Jr. a kick returner doesn't mean that is what he will always be.  Ted Ginn Jr. is a wide receiver.  The current coaching staff looks at Ted as a #1 wide receiver.  This current regime has brought in several other return guys to lighten Ginn's load on returns and focus on becoming the receiver he is capable of being.  Cameron's poor choice of words only made the fans more irate over the pick, when in reality he should've advertised a Ginn as "a speedy threat who will open up the deep passing game and make more opportunities available for Chris Chambers and our other wide receivers."

  Time will tell whether Brady Quinn or Ted Ginn Jr. were the better picks.  Hell, it could turn out that neither are good and Patrick Willis and Amobi Okoye should've been the guys that were taken.  Until we have enough evidence to make such a determination, this subject needs to be put to rest.  Sitting around here and moping about the past accomplishes absolutely nothing.  I'm moving forward.  Between John Beck and Chad Henne, one of these two young stallions is our future quarterback.  I'm looking forward too seeing who that will be, and when one of those guys steps up and finally claims that role, it can only mean, bigger, and brighter days ahead for Ted Ginn Jr.

^ Nice post! 

Calling Quinn a franchise QB at this point is just so ridiculous I don't know what so say about it.  He may be, but we don't know that, yet.

  That is great that Teddy has good hands, but a #1 receiver must also be able to run good crisp routes, BLOCK DOWN FIELD for other ball carriers and receivers, be able to seperate from defenders, STAY HEALTHY, draw double coverage to open up other options for your offense etc.   With Ted Ginn, I am unsure he will be able to handle the #1 wr job for the Miami Dolphins.  His size and ability are both questionable as a #1 wideout.  Ginn is a very good KR/PR with great speed, who might turn out to be a very good #2 or slot receiver in the NFL.  He definetly was not worth a top 10 pick with Brady Quinn falling into our laps at # 9.  Quinn will be a very solid QB in the NFL.

  For the record, I watched that game and the Browns dropped 2 of those passes with one of those a sure touchdown.  So Quinn should have been 5 of 8 with a touchdown.  Not bad for a rookie backup cold off the bench. 

I didn't know the NFL kept stats on would have,could have or should have.
Ginn would have,could have and should have ran back to kick offs for td's, if it wasnt for penalties.

For those who wanted Cam to stay after this monstrosity of a season, is a guy who gets called out for stuff like below a guy you would want leading your team?

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7644170

http://dolphinsindepth.blogspot.com/2008/01/stuff-of-novellas-and-soap-operas.html

  Again....  based on what?


  Not bad, but it's certainly not that impressive.  Eight whole passes in garbage time isn't enough to form a conclusion on Brady Quinn one way or the other.  Nice try, though.

I don't know if this has been mentioned by anyone already but I look at it by the possibilities that may come out of a quarterback.  I would take a QB that throws for 40 tds a year over a reciever who catches 10.  Let's say we took Quinn and he didn't pan out, it won't be half as nasty if he turns out to be the next Marino.

I'll admit that I've skimmed through the previous posts here but I've read enough "I have not seen anything out of Quinn to convince me".  I'll just say the same about Ginn and he's had way more play time. 

I don't think a single one of us here would be confident enough to begin a season with a washed up Jay Fiedler twin, one hit away from shitting out of his belly button.  Cam Cam, however, an "offensive genius", did feel that way.  NOW, instead of having a possible college star start this year with Chad Henne waiting in case it doesn't work out, many of our eggs are put into one basket.  Please, don't even mention McCown.  Also, I refuse to acknowledge the existence of the other player because of my belief that he does not play football and he's really a Soviet spy here to turn us red.  Mormon my ASS!!!

Bottom line.  If QB's didn't have such a monstrous impact on teams then GM's wouldn't RISK high draft picks to acquire them.  They are never a sure thing.  However, the benefit of one panning out nicely is priceless. 

Do you guys even watch games? And by "you guys" I mean everyone who thinks he might be a good slot receiver.

Slot receivers in the NFL very rarely run deep routes. They are, however, required to BLOCK a lot. Even when they're not blocking, their routes often go through a lot of traffic, so you'll typically find more "compact" players at slot than at WR. Wes Welker is a prime example. Reggie Bush *would* be a prime example, if the Saints would only admit that he's not a good fit at RB in the NFL. It's not just about size, it's about being tough, intelligent (huge number of reads compared to wideouts) and precise.

The very things you criticize Ginn for not having are the very things that a slot receiver needs to excel in the NFL. Pegging him as a  perennial #2 receiver makes for a much better argument, although I think it's too early to tell. A #2 receiver can be more 1-dimensional, relying solely on speed to stretch the field.

Am I the only one this doesn't make sense to?

Do you honestly believe we would have drafted Henne had we taken Quinn last year? We will never know, but I seriously doubt it. So our eggs would have still been in one basket, Brady Quinn and I couldn't stand that. If we had taken Quinn we probably would have still taken the old man last year because we had to have a veteran QB. We would probably still be stuck with Lemon and Beck wouldn't be here either. Our QB roster would likely be Quinn, Lemon, and some unknown goof. I don't feel confident with that at all.

A) why are we still talking about this?

B) Tommy, you've had blinders on regarding Cameron since day-friggin-one

C) Get back to me in 5 years when Brady Quinn = Gino Toretta and Ted Ginn is a legitimate deep threat

Brady Quinn is a career backup in the NFL.  I can't believe over a year later you're still harping about how you would have drafted Quinn. ::)

^Coming from a guy still harping on Trent Green!  Let it go, man.  :)

Never thought I'd say it........but I side with Guru 100%.  Like I've said many times before it doesn't matter how Quinn turns out. Nobody had the benefit of hindsight like we do now. AT that time and place in time The ONLY pick for the Miami Dolphins was Brady Quinn. And some first timer like Cam making such a stretch was just unforgivable.  can you imagine how much better the Miami Dolphins would be with Quinn and Henne battling it out? Plenty of great receivers availble last year in the 2nd round I'm sure. I'd mention some names but I don't want to get this thread locked............. ::)

What would make anyone, much less two people think Miami would have drafted a "franchise QB" in round one last year and then another QB in round 2 this year? You complain about bad drafting decisions, but doesn't this sound like one to anyone else? Hell, let's just pick a QB in every round until we get one who can be a starter and then we will worry about the rest of the team.

NO QB could have Succeeded in last years atmosphere. But your right........Parcells might have not have picked a QB at all if we had Quinn on the rooster as opposed to Beck. Maybe much more of a project in the 4th rounds or later.

  WRONG.  Brady Quinn was not the ONLY pick the Dolphins could've used at that time.  We could've drafted Patrick Willis, there was a need for another young MLB.  We could've drafted Amobi Okoye, Keith Traylor was entering his 17th season at the time.  We could've drafted Joe Staley.  We needed offensive line help.  Brady Quinn was not the ONLY pick for the Miami Dolphins at the time.  Brady just happened to be the "sexy" pick.

  One.  Ginn is not a Kick Returner.  He is not Devin Hester.  Ginn is a Wr who happens to excel at returning kicks.   You guys that keep referring to him as a KR must not have noticed.  He is playing Wr. & catching the football.

Two.  Miami got abused in the '00 season by not having a solid No. 3 Corner.

  I've ask this time & time again.  Since when do Qbs who are franchises type QB available at No. 9?   & end up getting drafted at No. 22?  Quinn's draft position tells me one thing.  NFL teams had major concerns about him.

I do not get the people saying Miami should have drafted Quinn simply because they needed a QB.  What about Beck who was drafted only 18 picks lower in the draft?

People who are still angry that we did not take Quinn will never accept Beck, even if he becomes the next Marino, because they would rather be right than happy.

  If Ginn turns into a solid No. 2 guys, then I'll be happy.  Its not like teams have not knowingly drafted No. 2 Wr high in the draft. 

Blocking from a Wr is a plus, it has no bearing on being a No. 1.  I want my Wr to catch the balls thrown their way.

What is so special about Quinn?    Some of you guys are talking as if Quinn came into the NFL as the next Manning.

Uh...yes he is.


So is Hester.

   


This is true, but it's widely known that he was taken where he was for his ability at returning kicks, moreso than his receiver ability.  (Of course both matter.)  The front office even compared him to Hester directly, for those reasons.


Yes, but I question whether it's worth spending a #1 pick on a #3 corner.  Seems like that a spot for a free-agent veteran on the decline or a later round selection or something.  ...not a potential super-star.

  Zach denied that ever happened.

  I do not put much stock in Jerry Porter calling someone spineless.

Remind me how many buddies of his jumped Levi so Porter could hit him?

Coaches loss teams all the time.  Coughlin if you forget lost control of his team in '06 & had to begged for his job, plus Coughlin was a experienced HC. 

I'm not saying Cam did not make mistakes, but he was also a rookie HC.  Sparano will make mistake next year.  That is a guarantee.

b I agree that no Qb would have succeeded last year.

If Quinn had played like Beck, then I believe Henne would have still be in Miami.

 For the people " Yelling " that Miami should have drafted Quinn.

Tell the rest of us what you know about Quinn's ability.  What makes you think he brings franchise type talent to be drafted that high?

Hester is actually a defensive back (cornerback, I think) who they're trying to morph into a WR.  Problem is he has no hands.  Hester is a crappy cover guy with good speed and great blocking up front.

Ted Ginn is a speedy WR with deep-threat potential and, oh by the way, he can return punts as well.

You can't compare the two, at all.  Ginn was drafted to fill a need at WR, not to be the team's KR.

  Uh No.  A KR simply returns punts & KO then returns to the sidelines to watch the offense.

The man has caught 20 passes in his career.  That is an average of 10 Per.

The jury is far more out on Hester's ability to play Wr, than it is Ginn's.

   
Young WR are often KR early in their career.  I fall back to the No. 6 pick in '88 ( Tim Brown ).

Steve Smith also returned kicks, but he was not a first Rd. selection.

They spoke of Ginn that way, because they knew rookie Wr need developmental time & that is the way Ginn would impact the team the most his rookie year.

  Wasn't that what Miami had been doing with no success?    Outside of a young Qb to develop, CB was Miami's greatest need that year.

  I watched this kid play lots of football over his 4 years at Notre Dame University.  Brady displayed leadership skills on and off the field, intelligence,  great work ethic,  a strong arm, accuracy ( he made bad throws, as do all qbs), moved around the pocket pretty well etc.  Quinn has all the TOOLS and the CHARISMA to play in the city where the great Dan Marino played.  He played all 4 years at Notre Dame and improved each year.  It is my opinion that he will be an outstanding NFL QB.  If you disagree, that is fine.  That is what makes for good football discussions.
   BTW,  I am not a Notre Dame fan by any means!!!! ;)

And what posistion would you say was more pressing though? The Number one position on the team that we have had a hole in for the last 8 years.........or a MLB who we have pretty decent depth at......we did draft Joey Porter at the end of last season.    QB goes beyond Sexy...........I suggest you start reading some more of the posts you just cut and paste.  ::)

Yes, but Ginn was drafted for his ability of a kr, not as a wide receiver.

Hmmm thought he was a free agent, I didnt realize we drafted him.

Good Question. It had nothing to do with Quinn or Ginn for me.  Its the fact that our brand new Head coach at the time made such a figging Leap on his first pick. It brought back flashes of Dave Wannbe and Eddie Moore.  I wanted to throw up.  Its like.........why can't Miami ever just go with the flow? Pick the popular pick just once. Out of the box HAS NOT served as well.  We are were we are because of our drafting. 

Valid Question. Too me it wasn't about Quinn or Ginn. Its the fact that our brand new head coach would take such a chance on his first pick.  It just brought back the Horror of the E

You put him on a team were he has a chance to start and he's gonna excel. Miami would have been perfect for him.

This is about logic. You are in the need of a cornerstone for the franchise, most successful organizations build around a QB. Maybe Quinn is not a world beater, but you justify passing up a potential franchise QB for a specialist? An injured one at that? Ginn would have been nice later in the round, a steal in the 2nd, but MIA that year needed an anchor at QB in the worst way. I know you bring up Beck, but to reiterate about the Mormon he's too old for a rookie, unproven, & doesn't have the upside that Quinn has.

You say Beck is unproven, but so is Quinn.  Some guys who excel in college become stars in the NFL, some become average, some become busts.  Only time will tell.

  What is the difference between Beck & Quinn?   Hype, is the major factor.  You guys at as if Miami ignored the QB spot.

They were drafted only 18 picks apart.    Its will always be up in the air as to wheret Ginn would have been picked had Miami not drafted him.  However, we know Quinn was not picked until 13 slots later.  That tells me all I need to know about how NFL teams viewed his talent entering the NFL.

As I've said before.  This does not mean he cannot or will be a quality QB.  Just that NFL teams viewed him with such weaknesses in his game that they were not willing to invest a top 20 1st Rd. pick on him.

The major factor here is most fans knew of Brady Quinn & not John Beck.  Just because you come from a big named school with lots of hype does not mean you are a better QB than a player from a smaller named school without the hype.  Had Beck played on the East Coast then we would have known more about him.

Ask yourself why is that? Its because Quinn's reputation comes from playing against better competition & was in more big games than Beck. Beck lovers point to his workouts & camps. You tell me which you think holds more clout. As to Quinn maybe being a flop that applies to anyone so pointing that out is moot we are talking about potential here. Beck may very well be the superstar that you see in your pipe dreams but the fact remains that on draft day it was a reach to pass up Quinn & go for a KICK RETURNER or slot receiver at best. And his family.

I couldn't agree more; right now Ginn, Quinn and Beck (sounds like a law firm) are all unproven commodities. "Only time will tell" whether each one becomes a total out of the league bust, a serviceable backup, a solid starter, or a pro bowl level star.

It would be fun to grave dig these posts in oh, about 2011, and see how things turned out. Then those who guessed wrong can be appropriately mocked.

  I love how you simply refer to me as a "cut and paste guy with no mind of my own."  I'll say this, I would rather be a "cut and paste guy" than a racist.

  Anyways, what position was more pressing?  The same position that was most pressing for the Dolphins leading into the 2008 NFL Draft....  the offensive line.  As I stated in one of my previous posts, I was hoping that the Dolphins would be able to draft Levi Brown with their first overall pick and then grab a quarterback in the second round.  Well, Levi didn't fall to the Dolphins.  The next best offensive lineman available was Joe Staley out of Central Michigan.  We could've drafted Staley, put him on the left side and kept Vernon Carey at his natural RT spot.  Some would've considered Staley a bigger reach than Ginn had we drafted him at that spot, but Staley would've filled one of the team's most pressing needs.

  That's just crazy talk!!  Staley was drafted at # 28 by San Fransico.  Miami had the 9th pick in the draft.  That's not a reach.......That's just insane.  There was a QB that was projected as high as # 1 available at # 9.  A QB which Miami desperately needed.  A QB that dosen't have happy feet in the pocket or deer in the headlight syndrome.  Also, a QB who is alot more value then a KICK RETURNER. ;)

Umm, is it really that hard to grasp?  Granted, its not a very Shakespearian sentence but the idea isn't that hard to comprehend.  We draft a Quinn in the first round, he turns out to be a bust, OH WELL.  Its happened.  The rewards are well worth the risk.  We skip a QB (WHICH WE NEEDED TO ADRESS LAST YEAR!) to draft a broken "fast guy".  THEN that QB we skipped turns out to be the next Marino.  Sunstroke's foot wouldn't be enough to stuff the mouths of those who opposed Quinn.  No matter how awesome Ginn turns out to be, it would never compare to a good QB. 


Could be that we still would have taken Henne.  I mean, we do have Beck and we still picked up Henne!  ;)  But lets say we picked up Quinn with no obvious need to address QB this draft.  I'm sure there are very suitable picks that we could have used to address KR/PR/WR with the pick used on Henne. 

  Stop referring to Ginn as a kick returner.  That's not what he is, he is a WIDE RECEIVER.  Return duties are secondary.  Just because the guy who drafted him used a poor choice of words, and labeled him the wrong way, it shouldn't define the kid as such. 

  Brady Quinn was projected at #1, but he fell all the way down to #22.  Had the Browns not traded up to that spot, Brady may have fallen even further.  Some of you guys are still living off of the ESPN and Notre Dame hype that surrounded him.  You say you watched Brady for four years at Notre Dame?  Well so did I.  I haven't forgotten that his first two years were absolutely awful, and his knack for choking and completely dissappearing in the big games are still fresh in my mind.  Who's to say that Quinn wouldn't have had the same look that John Beck had this year had he played with the surrounding cast that Beck had?  Fact of the matter is, to call Quinn a franchise quarterback is laughable and is rather presumptious considering he hasn't played a meaningful down of NFL football.

You got it all wrong, Ted Ginn Jr is a KR who happens to play WR also, not the other way around. I believe he may be the next Desmond Howard.

  Sure Quinn played in a few big games.  How did he perform in those games?  Also, don't fool yourself either into thinking Notre Dame plays a tough schedule.  They play a lot of bigger named school with very average football teams like Purdue. Mich St.   I'm not saying BYU plays any better, just that ND is not playing the heavy weights of college either.

You have yet to explain why it was a reach to pass on Quinn?  Was his name simply to big to not take?  What the special qualities Quinn has?  If Quinn is so good then why was he not drafted until 22?  That is lower than where Rex Grossman was drafted.  Ouch.

Also, might want to understand what a slot Wr does.  Ginn is no where a slot type Wr.   Also to include " At best " means you would rather Ginn fail than to be wrong about it.  Shameful.

  What?  Drafting a player that went 28 is crazy, but drafting a player that went 22 wouldn't be?

   Key word is " Projected "   Projected by people who are simply playing fantasy GM.  Not by the people who actually do the job.

That is extremely huge.

   Just about every rookie Qb will have happy feet, especially when they have no running game to slow the D down.

LOL! Here we go.......I must have hit a sore spot Mr. Cut and Paste if you felt you needed to go there.  :D Sorry the truth hurts. Glad to actually hear your opinions though instead of just another article that you copied.  Please keep it up.........

 


You don't send a #1 reciever on Punt retuns. I don't know when the last time I saw Chambers taking punts..........

 
Thats how the Draft works. 

A. He dropped after Miami becuase not many Teams had a need for a QB. 

B. Some of the teams felt that Miami and Quinn were so made for each other I'm sure they were all second guessing themselves........like what does Cam know that we don"t? They soon got the answer.........nothing.  ::)

C. #22 in the FIRST round is not Too Shaby. Dan Marino got picked at #27 and was the last out of the famed 83 QB class to get drafted. WTF does that mean? Round 1 is round 1.

  Last time you saw Chambers taking punts and kickoffs?  How about 2001?  In his rookie year.  36 kick returns, 811 yards, 22.5 return average, and a longest return of 47 yards.  It's not totally uncommon for #1 receivers too see some time as PR/KR, O.J. McDuffie did it.  McDuffie was also a PR for the Dolphins for seven years during his eight year tenure with the Dolphins.  He returned kickoffs in four of those seasons as well.  I don't think that made O.J. McDuffie any less of a receiver.  Nobody slapped the label of "returner" on McDuffie as much as some of you do with Ginn. 

http://www.armchairgm.com/O.J._McDuffie#Punt_Return_Stats
 

  Really?  What teams felt that Miami and Brady Quinn were made for each other?  Secondly, Those teams haven't gotten an answer because nobody has seen Brady Quinn play a meaningful down in the NFL.  So, a lot of teams still don't have a clue as to what kind of NFL quarterback Brady Quinn is.  A lot of you are overlooking this point.



  Not too shabby, but it's still a fall from grace for a guy that was projected by the number one overall pick before the college football season began.  Marino did go later than Quinn, but that was for a totally different reason.  Marino fell because of alleged cocaine use, and that really hurt his stock.  Had that rumor not been put out there, the Dolphins would've never had a shot at Marino.

That's a BS argument. If draft evaluators for REAL TEAMS had actually considered Quinn a potential franchise quarterback (one whom you keep mentioning in the same breath as Marino), they would have taken him regardless. You NEVER pass on a franchise quarterback - unless you are 100% positive you really do have a (young) franchise quarterback already.

Let's look at the teams that drafted after us who PASSED on Quinn:

Texans: Matt Schaub and Safe Rosenfels had both performed about average (mid 80s passer ratings). I doubt anyone, Texans staff or otherwise, believed either of these two to be franchise quarterbacks.

49ers: Alex Smith and Trent Dilfer. While they did have a lot invested in Smith, the uncertainty about his talent should certainly have been enough to at least consider going for a true franchise quarterback. But, OK, it was probably a year early..

Bills: JP Losman and Trent Edwards. Not a year early here. Losman had played 3 years, starting for two, and never rising above average. In that case, you don't let a franchise quarterback slip... you grab him just like the Chargers did with Rivers. And if your old guy turns it around, well, that's not exactly bad ;-)

Rams: Marc Bulger and Gus Frerotte. If there was even a decent chance Quinn was franchise quarterback material, the Rams should have been all over him. Bulger had turned 30 and despite still performing well, at times, he was clearly on the downside of his career. Perfect time to draft you young successor and let him sit for a year or two, learning behind a good (but old) quarterback.

Jets: Chad Pennington and Kellen Clemens. To pass up a potential franchise quarterback, you really had to be sure that Clemens was the future of the franchise. Otherwise, you do what Parcells did this year and get someone else (Henne) as insurance.

Steelers: Ben Roethlisberger and Charlie Batch. Pittsburgh had their franchise guy and was convinced of it. No reason to grab a QB this high when what you really needed were the last pieces for a Super Bowl run.

Packers: Brett Favre and Aaron Rogers. Like with the Jets, you really need to be sure your unproven guy is the real deal. If in doubt, you don't let a potential franchise quarterback slip.

Broncos: Jake Plummer and Jay Cuttler. Denver clearly believed Cuttler, who had shown flashes of great play, was the future.

Bengals: Carson Palmer. Two great seasons from him with a lot of years still left, so no reason to grab a replacement for another couple of years.

Titans: Vince Young. The Titans were still praying Young was going to be great. Getting another first round quarterback was just not in the cards. With another disastrous season under his belt, that's changed. But passing on Quinn was understandable, even if they believed him to be a potential franchise quarterback.

Giants: Eli Manning. The investment in Eli didn't, and doesn't, allow for any spending on quarterbacks.

Jaguars: David Garrard and Byron Leftwich. Two very mediocre quarterbacks with 5-6 seasons under their belts. There's just no excuse for NOT drafting a potential franchise quarterback, if they truly believed Quinn to be that. Sure, Garrard turned out to have a really good 2007 season, but the gamble on a career backup approaching 30 (which he is now) was too great and there's no way they would have passed up a potential franchise quarterback.

In short, I disagree with your premise that the next 12 teams were not in need of a new quarterback. Even ignoring the fact that ALL teams could use a FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK, many of the 12 had big question marks at the game's most important position. Clearly, they didn't believe in the media hype surrounding Quinn.

Time will tell if media "experts" were right and the paid professionals wrong...

Why was it stupid to pass up Quinn at # 9? Because we needed a young QB to build around, & instead picked a KR.

Why Quinn & not Beck? Big name/hype like you suggest? Let's see. Quinn has size, experience against more formidable competition (than BYU anyway), an arm, & definately more athletic. Oh yeah & he's about 5 years younger. 37TD to 6 INT ratio behind a crap o-line at ND. What do we have in Beck a skinny, older, less mobile prospect with an allegedly strong arm. So in short, Jay Fiedler with a stronger arm. --> PASS

Its not so much a love for Quinn as it is contempt for picking Ginn at #9. I say Ginn is only a slot receiver at best because he is too small to be a #1 & maybe even a #2. Physical CB's will toss him around all over the place. He would need to get open under coverages matched up against LB's like Wes used to except he doesn't have the same hands. He's best in open space, which is why he is only suitable as a KR.

Im not going to debate this anymore if you fail to see how picking an injured KR over a potential franchise QB is a reach then we will have to just agree to disagree

True Miami has ignored the QB since drafting Marino in 1983. Hopefully one of these two young QBs can get the job done. The word POTENTIAL does not make a great sell to me, technically Beck has the potential to be a franchise QB. Though I disagreed with drafting Ginn but if the opportunity came up again I would chose him over the not so mighty Quinn.

IF QUINN HAS SO MUCH POTENTIAL THEN WHY DID CLEVELAND SIGN DEREK ANDERSEN TO A CONTRACT EXTENSION ?

Because Quarterbacks are a valuable commodity. If anderson works out the browns can trade Quinn and get some value in return. I'd love to be in the browns position.

Ron Wolf when he was GM with the packers drafted a QB almost every season.

Dallas got Cleveland to give up it's first round pick so they could acquire Quinn.

Someone next season will be beating down cleveland's door to inquire about Quinn. Also what if Anderson goes down with an injury, quinn can step right in. You need two capable QB's in this league.

Look how long David Garrard stood behind leftwicth. Garrard turned out to be the better fit in the jags system.

Anderson only signed a 3 year extension, so the browns didn't really make any long term commitment to him. I'll take cleveland's problem any day of the week.

Well this has nothing to do with the draft but Andersen got an extension because he had a Pro Bowl year so it made perfect sense. The Browns at some point will have to make or break with Quinn because we will need to start somewhere & deservedly so.

Exactly... Derek Anderson's contract means nothing to Quinn's ability to play QB. We talked about this quite a bit leading up to the draft, but I am all for drafting at least one QB in every draft class...or signing at least one undrafted rookie FA QB every year. However you get the QBs into camp, bringing in fresh blood at that position does nothing but increase your chances of picking a diamond out of the dirt.

  I wonder if we would still be having this conversation had we choose Edwards or Stanton, and not Beck.

 

 I don't believe Chambers was listed as the #1 receiver in his rookie season. .........lets see if Ginn returns any punts in training camp or in the reg. season. #1 Receivers DO NOT return punts .
 
 
  Probably ever Team, Player, personal director analyst, and Fan that was at the draft that all Gasped at the pick together and said "HOLY SHIT", all together.


 


He did pretty good for a coke head huh?  ::) My point is everyone makes like #22 is such a disgrace. He is still a player that another Team felt was enough of a good Risk that they spent several draft picks to TRADE UP to snatch him. If Anderson continues his play , They might even get them back in trade for the Kid. I sincerely doubt ANY NFL team would give us another Round 1 pick for Mr Ginn. No way Jose........ ::)

  O.J. McDuffie did it.
 

  So in other words, you have no names to backup your claims.


  You don't know that.

Steve Smith returned punts for Carolina, and there isn't any doubt that he's the #1 WR for the Panthers. Adrian Peterson (the real one) returned punts for Minnesota last year, despite his being their stud RB.


You know I love ya, 619...but do YOU really think that, right now, any team in the NFL would give up a first round pick for Ted Ginn jr?

  Right now, no of course not.  Down the road, it's a possibilty if Ginn lives up to the talent he's capable of.  Of course, if that happens I don't expect Ginn to wind up being shopped around.

  You have that QB in Beck.  Who again was drafted only 18 spots lower & is only 3 years older, not the 5 you say below.  Which leads me to believe you either do not know & are just spouting things or you are trying to skew the facts to help make your point.

  Fiedler's mobility would make Quinn look like Marino..  Beck has added something like 20 Lbs this offseason.  If true, then he & Quinn will be almost the same height & weight.  Both are listed at 6'2"

Beck had 32 TDs / 8 Ints.  The one thing you forgot to bring up was he & Quinn were on two different poles of accuracy.  Beck was considered one of the most accurate passers, while Quinn was rated as one of the worst.

Might want to tell that to Steve Smith also.  Not sure he knows it.
Smith is 2 inches shorter than Ginn.   Hines Ward is only 1 inch taller.  Joey Galloway is another smaller Wr that has been a No. 1.

  It would be different if Miami did not choose a QB with their very next pick.

Its the same this year & I do not see you complaining about Miami passing on a higher rated QB in Ryan than Quinn was, for another position.

Why are you not complaining about this year?  Hypocrisy?  Simple hatred of Ginn?  Just flat out love for Quinn?

  Don't think they will.    Most teams appeared to have deemed Quinn not worthy of a 1st Rd selection, so Quinn will have to do something on the field this year in order for a team to be interested in trading for him.

Other than that he will be just another potential young Qb.

Cleveland gave up this years (2008) #1 pick to move back into the first round to acquire the right to draft Brady Quinn at Dallas pick #22.  There were also a few others picks given up by Cleveland to Dallas in order to get Quinn.  Wow, they must have really thought highly of his ability to give up so much!!! ;)

  They thought so much of his ability that they passed on him with the 3rd pick of the draft.  Shows what they actually thought of his ability.

The trade:

Cleveland gave up their '08 1st Rder ( No. 25 ) & a '07 2nd Rder ( No. 36 ) to move up.   So basically they gave up a 2nd Rder for Quinn ( No. 22 ) & spent their '08 late first Rders on Quinn.   

The fact is Cleveland who was in just as bad of a spot for a QBs as Miami thought Quinn was not worthy of the third pick of the draft.   That tells me Cleveland had doubts about his ability & was not willing to gamble the pick & the money for him at that spot.

However, in the 20's he was worth the gamble.

   


Show me were I EVER mentioned OJ Mcduffie and was he ever listed as our #1 Receiver ?   ???

 Yeah......I had wire taps in every John in every war room during the draft....... ::) Are you trying to say that nobody was surprised when Miami didn't take Quinn? 


I'll use your logic then........So in other words   you have no data to back up your claims?  :D


You know damn well that Brady Quinn could get at the very least a conditional 1 st round pick for his services if Anderson continues his Play.

No one would give us anything close in comparison for Ginn.
 

  Yeap.  In the mid to late '90s he was. 

ooooOK........ ???

Don't know what he has to do with Ginn but........rock on guys.   

In fact.........this thread should be locked for mentioning him.  ;D
 

There should be a post should have Miami drafted Quinn, Ginn or somebody else.

C'mon now...that says a lot more for what they thought of Joe Thomas' ability than anything, and the fact that Cleveland paid high to go back into round one to get Quinn says plenty for what they thought of him.

  Are you telling me you believe a team would rank a franchise LT over a franchise QB?  If so, it would be the first time a team did that.  It tells me a little of both.  They thought highly of Thomas & had questions about Quinn.  Questions most Miami fans have paid little attentions too.

Paid high?  They paid a 2nd Rd. pick.  The number one they paid is cancelled out by the No. 1 they got in return.  Dallas fell back ~13 slots. 

Sweet jesus on a unicycle...You know as well as I do that the first rounder they got was in no way related to the Quinn deal, so stop using irrelevant smoke and mirrors...this isn't a political thread.

Smoke and Mirrors is all they got.   

A team that already had a good QB just might. It motivated Anderson into a Pro Bowl year And they will probably get a first rounder for him in the future . Smart move by Cleveland.  I hope to heck the Ginn turns into a pro-bowler......but if he doesn't what do we have in return?

Actually, Miami picked a franchise LT ( Jake Long) over a franchise QB (Matt Ryan) in this years draft.  It happens more then you think Dphins4me! ;) 

Excellent point.  At the #1 pick you gotta go for the surest thing. Nothing is for 100% sure......but Jake had the least amount of failure.  At #9 however......its worth the risk.

  What the hell are you talking about?   What No. 1 was not related to the Quinn deal?    The deal involved two No. 1 picks & a 2nd.

Maybe this will help.

Cleveland gave up
2008 1st Rd. pick ( No. 25 )
2007 2nd Rd. pick ( No. 34 )

Dallas gave up
2007 1st Rd. pick ( No. 22 )

That was the whole deal.  Where are you having trouble following this simple deal?  Where is the smoke & mirrors or are you just without any other retort so you are throwing anything up against the wall?

  Sure a team with a good QB might.  Cleveland was not a good team & needed a QB desperately.  Why would Cleveland trade a PB QB for an unproven Qb?  The only way Anderson is traded in the near future is if he starts to suck again.

  What do the pro-Quinn have?  To draft a QB who fell 13 more spots?  One drafted lower than Rex Grossman.   

  Where is the proof that this happens?

The only time a team drafts a franchise LT over a franchise Qb is when they already have one or they do not think much of the franchise Qb.  Cleveland did not think enough of Quinn to draft him over Thomas, just as Miami did not think enough of Ryan to take him over Long.

Excellent point, well done.

actually a team drafts a franchise LT over a franchise QB, when they don't have an o line that is good enough to protect the QB, whats the point in getting a franchise QB when the guy is going to get killed every time he snaps the ball from a crappy offensive line.

So NFL teams never draft a franchise QB with a bad offensive line ? Happens all the time.

  What it has to do with Ginn is, you stated that "number one receivers don't field punts."  However, as others have stated that's not true at all.  When O.J McDuffie was our top receiver, he fielded punts.  Stroke pointed out that Steve Smith in Carolina fields punt returns.  Also, Adrian Peterson did some returns for the Vikings last season.  Yet nobody labels them as just a "kick returner."

Actually no.  You do not pass on a franchise Qb because you have a weak line. 

There should be lots of proof of this type stuff, if it happens..

Remember there has to be a franchise QB & LT in the draft.

QFT.

Every QB looks great riding the pine.   ;)

Tim Brown?

Let it be stated again, Ted Ginn Jr was drafted as a KR who played WR also, he was not drafted for his ability as a wide receiver. Peterson was drafted as a rb, so not a comparison.
Oj McDuffie was not drafted as kr, He just happen to be a wr who could play KR.
The facts remain we need to deal with the hand dealt to us. Ginn needs to step up and produce, as a dolfan I am willing to forget 2007 the Cameron hostage crisis. So Ted you get a pass, Beck you get a pass, but no excuses this year.

  No, they did not draft Ginn just as a KR.  No one is foolish enough to draft just a KR with the 9th pick of the draft. 

Yes, Ginn is raw as a Wr, but that does not mean they did not expect him to be a valuable WR in the future for the team.   You guys floor me with this silly stuff.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/031601415X.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_V46974069_.jpg)

dude just admit that you have serious wood for ted ginn and we'll call it even. the guy is a bust I dont care how good a KR (YES KR!!! cuz thats what he is whether you like it or not) he turns out to be, he was a REACH. I'm amazed at your level of denial its amazing are you sure you're not in the Ginn family too?

With all the replies you could have made, this is how you choose to express yourself?   That was the best you've got? 

I'd kept my fingers off the keyboard if that was the best I had.

Is that like Cameron's Fail Forward Fast thing? ;-)

You have to be kidding me. Ok try answering these question's, let's look at his rookie season.
1.Did Ginn return KR and punts from day one of the season ?
2.Did Ginn play on the field as a wide receiver from day one ?
3. Where on the depth chart was Ginn in KR and Punt returns ?
4.Where on the depth chart was Ginn listed as a wide receiver ?

  Yep.  This thread has definately run it's course.  It's time for this thread to die.

Nope. We're going to let it run for 18 more pages or else people will bitch about it.

  HE WAS A ROOKIE!!


   I would think people who follow football like some claim they do here, then they would know that a high majority of rookie Wr do not start from day one.  Not even top 10 picks.  Rule of thumb it takes a Wr 2 years before they get adjusted to the NFL.  That is why you see a 3rd Yr breakout list for Wr every year in Fantasy Football leagues.   


Would it have made you guys feel better had Ginn not excelled as a returner and sat on the bench until he was up to speed as a Wr?

Wr drafted early in first round do start from day one. Cameron drafted Ginn because of his special team play, plain and simple.
Dwayne Bowe from Kansas City who easily outshinned Ginn was drafted 24th pick in the first round and played all 16 games as a starter and HE WAS A ROOKIE.
What about Calvin Johnson too ?
You question if people watch football but yet you can't notice rookie wide receivers drafted in the first round often get a starting job.

Great post Simeon, unfortunately logic & reasoning won't work with the Ginn lovers. For them Cameron & Ginn can do no wrong & picking a KR coming off an injury at #9 with as many holes as Miami has was a great choice. Nevermind that Akambi Okoye was still on the board, who fell to the Texans & garnered them 4 sacks in his 1st month, or Patrick Willis, who ummmm only got DRPOY & made the Pro Bowl his 1st year with San Fran, then of course there's Quinn. Maybe it will take a couple of years for it to sink in with them, that while other teams chose perennial pro bowlers to their roster we chose this generations Randall Hill.

Bowe did not start from day 1 & did not start all 16 games.  He did not start Wk 1.  CJ did not start Wk. 1 either.   Bowe & CJ were also more NFL ready & which was information readily available to fans in most draft publications & on NFL/ESPN shows.  Bowe's upside was not as good as CJ or Ginn.  Bowe was thought to be about as good as he was ever going to be.  That is just how they viewed his talents.  Now, we do not know if they judged him correctly.

It was well known that Ginn was far more raw as a Wr than the others & would take more time to get up to NFL speed. The NFL draft is not about getting someone that can come in & help you the following year.  Its about down the road, regardless of what Mel Kiper says how much they can help.  Fans anymore think rookies should come into the NFL & be wonderful right out of the gates.  Some do it more quickly than others, but it does not mean the ones that take longer will not be quality players in a year or two.  Bowe had a great rookie year.  Now, is that because he is that good or just had a great rookie year ( Micheal Clayton )  Rookie year is generally a year of adjustment.  Players make huge strides between their rookie & 2nd year. 

Sure, the fact Ginn could help out on ST while learning the Wr job had to be a factor, but he had to be projected as a Wr who could be a quality Wr before they ever would have spent a No. 1 on him.  If he were simply viewed as a returner then he would not have been drafted in Rd. 1 at all.

There is a difference between watching football & understand it.  I question the understanding of things, not the simple viewing of a game.  Fans that simply watch call rookies bust a game or two into their careers.

If you would stop with the Ginn lover BS, then your opinion might be more valuable.  No one here is in love with Ginn & believes he was the player without doubt Miami should have drafted.

 No one is arguing that Miami might should have consider Willis or Okoye.  I personally wanted Okoye & in no way shape or form wanted Ginn. Ginn was about the only player I was 100% against Miami drafting.   However, as I posted before.  I watched Ginn & put my opinion of him aside & he showed promise as a Wr & believe as he learns more will be a valuable Wr for Miami.

Just pointing out.  Great rookie years does not mean great careers.

One thing if Ginn turns into a PB will you have the backbone to post that he was a good pick?  or will you still say he is just a KR?

Is there any chance we can stop dwelling on the past and look toward the future?

Who really cares why he got drafted anyways, hes on the team now, and thats the important part.

Do your home work!!
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-msgr&p=Dwayne%20Bowe&type=
Dwayne Bowe played all 16 games  70 catches for 995 yards with 5 TD's.
nothing personal here but I most likely been watching and understanding football longer then you, over all Ginn's rookie season was a bust!!! But all is forgiven after all he was cursed by Cameron, it's not his fault Cameron was a moron and picked him. With many players more worthy to pick we chose a KR, stupid move but hey it was Cameron's idea.
Now he has a clean slate to go and prove you right and the majority of us wrong, if I was a betting man I would wager he will not prove us wrong. Many people on here except you understand Ginn is a KR, and should never been drafted by Miami, then again you claim your vast knowledge of football is so much more then ours. When this season ends we will see where you are on this subject.

WRRRRROOOONNNNGG again. When you are in rebuilding mode which MIA clearly is then your 1st round pick needs to be an immediate impact player, not a luxury pick. Ive stated before & I will state again, Ginn wouldve been a nice pick for say, Indy or NE where he can run free in open space as a slot receiver or KR as Welker does for the Pats. But those teams already had their more important positions addressed, MIA has holes all over the place - & instead of going for the jugular Cam addressed a secondary skill position. This is the point youve failed to address as if Ginn making the Pro Bowl is important. He was a reach because we passed up higher talent at more critical positions  period.

Look, it's simple guys (on both sides):

You can either believe that either:

a) Cam Cameron and Randy Mueller were so incompetent that they drafted a punt returner with the 9th overall pick

or

b) Cam "we drafted the Ginn family" Cameron has absolutely no PR skills and no one to prepare statements for him.

Your choice. Pick whichever you think is the more plausible. Personally, I believe b) to be the more plausible, but, hey, whatever rocks your boat. We're obviously not going to get anywhere by discussing this further, though.

All that said, if anyone's interested, I dug up Cam's little post-Ginn-pick speech and transcribed it (minus intro and thank yous):

And let me tell you about a young man we just drafted.

There's a young man named Tedd Ginn. Tedd Ginn Jr.

And we drafted the Ginn family. I've known this family for over 10 years.

I watched this young man for a long time.

You're going to be thrilled every time you watch him as a punt returner.

Cause he's gonna be a great returner for us.

He's gonna to be a young man who's gonna wind up a great ... (interrupted by applause)

And let me put it to you this way ... (interrupted by chants of BRADY BRADY)

Let me tell you this: Tedd Ginn is a Miami Dolphin.

Tedd Ginn is someone that you're going to be proud of.

Tedd Ginn is... Tedd Ginn and his family will give us everything they have, I promise you that.

Tedd Ginn is gonna be someone that you're going to enjoy watching play for a long, long time as a Miami Dolphin.

I would say this: We're gonna put together a draft class, and again, it's nice to be able to step out of the draft room for a few minutes and I'm gonna hustle back in because we've got again... we got some more picks coming up.

But you're going to see a tremendous draft class put together.

And it's a draft class that's gonna to make you proud.

And it's someone that you're going to be proud of to say that they're part of the Miami Dolphin family.

  I agree, but it is the offseason & the things to actually discuss are limited.

How about stop changing the parameters. ( Check your previous post )

  You said Bowe played in every game as a starter, which is what I replied to.  Now you are saying he played in every game, which is correct, but it does not change the fact you previously stated he started every game.

  My daddy can beat up your daddy.

  No more of a bust of a year than Calvin Johnson.  However, I doubt anyone here would be upset with Johnson’s production in his rookie year & the fact he was injury prone in it.

Do you think CJ is as good as he is going to get? 

  There is nothing to prove me right or wrong about.  My point in all of this is that he was not drafted just as a KR.  Now, he may end up being a bust at Wr.  However, being a bust at the Wr spot is nothing new for even college stud Wr, much less raw college Wr.

Many people hate Ginn simply because he was not Brady Quinn.

Find where I claim my knowledge was vast.

Find where I have said Miami was correct in the drafting of Ginn.

I’ll save you the trouble.  You cannot.

As I put it earlier which no one replied.  Would it have made any of you happier had Ginn not been able to return kicks?

At the end of the season odds are we will know a touch more, but no enough.  If Ginn has a quality season then we still will not know if he is for real. If he has an average season, then as I’ve pointed out before it is a well know fact that the majority of Wr have a 2 year period before they are up to speed.

What impact did Russell have for the Raiders?  What impact did the injury prone CJ have for the Lions his rookie year?  What impact did Gaines Adams have? What impact did Jammal Anderson have for the Falcons?  All drafted before Ginn. 

Do I need to go back to older drafts to point out the unproductive of some others rookie years?

  Be great if he actually played slot.  Ginn is not an over the middle type Wr.

  What higher talent?  or faster impact?  Two different things.

Being the fastest out of the gate, does not mean you are the best. 

My point is simply give Ginn a chance, before declaring him a bust or a simple KR.  Should Miami have taken someone else?  You bet. 

  However, that does not mean Ginn cannot be a quality player.  Right now Willis looks like Miami missed out.  However, this coming year he could be a total bust because of some reason like he thinks he does not have to work hard.

Lets remember Micheal Clayton put up 1100 Yds. his rookie year & in the 3 years since not total 1100.