The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

The other two threads are all over the place.  This comes down to one simple question: does baseball have a future in South Florida.

So I ask in this way.  I am going to wave a magic wand and do the following:

1:  Create a Marlins stadium.  It's a baseball only specific stadium in a decent part of the city.  Baseball only is important, no bad seat in the house.  I get that Joe Robbie isn't a great place for baseball, this stadium will be much like Camden Yards.  In other words: baseball friendly.

2:  Retractable roof.  The roof closes when the heat index is over 88 degrees.  I concede it's not fun sitting in 100 degree heat with 100% humidity.  The hottest you'll ever be is 88.  Hotter than that and the roof closes and the air temp is 70-75.

3:  Mid week games are all moved to night games.

4:  Ticket prices will be in line with medium sized teams.  You get what you pay for.  Box seat behind home plate will run you more than bleachers, but won't drive you out of house and home.

5:  The team is exactly the same as right now, same players, same payroll, same record.

Does this team draw enough to create a loyal base in South Florida under the conditions in which I have layed out?  They aren't far fetched, they are reasonable.  Under these conditions would the team ever have a minus 600 attendance game?  Will they break 2,000,000 per season?

Discuss.

I would hope so.  I can't say that these conditions laid out would make ME follow the team any more.  But I don't have an answer for you, since I'm apparently not the one with the problem.

The one exception I have with your discussion is that you're fixated on one single game out of a 162 game season which had terrible attendance.  Its not like the Marlins can't draw more than 600 people for any one game.  They regularly draw in the 20-30k range for weekend series.  Let's be fair in this discussion, please.

Now, the one thing you left out here is the biggest factor, IMO.  The stadium location.  Design the stadium however you want, make it the greatest stadium ever, but place the stadium in the middle of the hood in Little Havana with no parking structure and no surrounding roadway infrastructure, and you have an even bigger problem.  If you want to draw fans, put the stadium where the fans are and more fans will come.

The proposed stadium site is where the Orange Bowl was.  I have been to numerous Hurricanes' games and that location SUCKS.  Knowing the attendance problems the Marlins have now, how many people from north Broward and Palm Beach are going to drive 1 hour+ to get to a game.  Especially on a weeknight, after work, or when the kids have to be up for school the next day?

None.

They're catering to the latino population, expecting that "only hispanic people go to games." ::)  While there's a large latino population and a lot of them enjoy baseball, this thinking is flawed, IMO.  The fact that you have to know Spanish to be able to get to the stadium is a huge turn-off for a lot of people (myself included).

I don't know what the answer is.  I don't think the team does either, because they seem to think that a new stadium suddenly means that all the Yankees fans will LOVE the Marlins.  Doubtful.  Maybe they think that all the local Cubans will flood the seats of the new stadium?  Also doubtful.

Seems to me like baseball is doomed in South Florida.  I should just stop following them now and cut my losses.

You're right, I am focused on that one game - and for a couple reasons.  It's happened at least twice that I know of.  So the question is this: is that a symptom of a deeper problem or merely a hiccup in an otherwise growing fan base?  I think it's fair to focus on this one game when overall attendance is as low as it is.

In other words - if that exact same game on 9/4/08 had been played at night versus day - would that attendance figure have been the same?

If you take away all of the issues - put the stadium in a better place, make it a better stadium, remove overheating fans issues, make night only games if they are mid week...is this a non issue?

If things were more comfortable, in general, would that area embrace the team a little more?

No brainer - YES.  I can't say that it would have been a sell out but they'd have had ten times the amount of fans there, easily.

Again, yes.  If you're only looking to eliminate 600-person attendance, then I don't see this being an issue.

You made a jump that I can't confirm.  I don't know what you can do to convince people to support the team more.  I don't know what would make people want to go get Marlins logos tattoos and name their kids after Mike Jacobs.  This is the type of embrace I'd like to see.  I'd like to find "die hard" fans who never miss a game on TV, and know Chris Volstad's ERA off the top of their head and buy the Marlins baby blanket when they have kids.  This is not uncommon in Red Sox country.  But it will never happen in Florida.

I kinda point the finger at the team's marketing folks.  I get phone calls from the Panthers and Dolphins trying to sell me tickets.  I don't get phone calls from the Marlins.  Other teams have attractive ticket packages available if you buy a bunch of games up front, but the Marlins make it more sensible to buy single game tickets cause the packages suck.  They have post game concerts after Saturday night home games - all but 2 acts have been Latino artists.  Why?  Why don't they focus on trying to get asses in the seats?  Why don't they try to convince people that, hey, its a good time, and you can see guys like Manny Ramirez and Ryan Howard and Johan Santana when they come to town?  I think the entire marketing department needs to be fired and some big-name firm needs to come in and do the right thing.

I can only speak for myself.  The reason I'm not hardcore into baseball, like I used to be is probably because of the economics.  That said, I still enjoy going to the game.  It's fun to hang out and watch -- have a hot dog and beer, and just enjoy getting out with your friends or family.

But, we don't have a "stop by" kind of stadium.  Currently, we have a stadium that's not located near anything else.  It's sorta in no-man's land.  I think that you could build a much bigger "impulse buy" crowd if you had it in downtown Ft. Lauderdale.  There are bars and clubs all around and a lot of people actually live and work in the heart of that city.

If you had a small, intimate stadium that was easy to access to the regular casual fan, I think you'd have much better, long-term success.

All these plans I see to build a new stadium way South, or near where the Orange Bowl is, is a complete disaster in my opinion.

Want some more issues?

Greedy ownership.  There's land up the ass available in the Sawgrass (west Broward) area near the Bank Atlantic center.  But, of course, greedy-ass developers scooped it all up and now that the housing market sucks their projects have fallen flat.  They could easily drop a stadium nearby, instead of more luxury condos that won't sell, and it would be great for the Marlins!  There would be easy access in and out with the Sawgrass Expressway, and lots of restaurants and stuff in the surrounding area, not to mention having the other stadium nearby.  Its cetrally located to everyone from North Dade to West Palm Beach.  Its a great situation!

But the team management wants a gift of land and doesn't want to pay for their own stuff.  They want the city to donate land and that's why they want to stay in Dade county.

Seems to me like everything falls back on the front office.

I don't think a stadium would work at the Sawgrass.  You need to put the stadium in a population center.  Unfortunately, the Orange Bowl site is a slum and people who live there damn sure aren't going to baseball games.  I think that Ft. Lauderdale is the perfect place.

Problem is there's no empty space in fort lauderdale that's not also slum.  You can't put it downtown because the traffic there is congested as it is.  I agree the you'd want it in Broward county and in a "populated area."  But, there's more office buildings than you realize in the Sawgrass area (I work in one of them) and I have no problem going to Panther's games after work. 

Regardless, Broward county isn't buying the Marlins land any time soon.  I wish they'd just stop asking for handouts.

I have no idea how they'd fund it, but Maine's question seemed to be a hypothetical one -- he did mention a magic wand.

If they put a stadium in downtown Ft. Lauderdale, they'd almost certainly have to redesign some infrastructure to account for the traffic spike -- new 95-ramps, tri-rail stations directly into the stadium, etc.

I'd love it if they had a tri-rail that went to the stadium, that'd be awesome for sure.

I think there are a lot of things that could be helped with Maine's magic wand, I definitely think they'd improve attendance of the casual fan, but you still won't get fans to be as passionate about the Marlins as Red Sox fans or Yankees fans are passionate.

I think the Marlins themselves are to blame for marketing to a limited demographic and I think the pretentious attitude of South Florida in general is also to blame ("who takes public transportation, that's so ghetto?!" ::) )

You can't make fans be passionate.  That has to grow over a generation.  But you have to start somewhere.  The Marlins goal should be for us to be able to take our kids there and have that bonding experience...then, when they grow up, that experience will mean more.

One of my fondest memories of my Dad is going to the World Series with him.  He isn't a sports Dad and he's a lot older than most Dads with kids my age.  ...but that was a defining moment for me.  And when he's gone, that moment will stay with me.  And if I have children and I take them to a game, I'll pass that on.

That's loyalty.

That's what the Red Sox have -- generations of stories and hardship and celebration and memories.  ...and what I hope the Marlins fans will have in a generation.  But we have to grow to that point first.  And to do that, you have to make it accessible.

I agree - that was my "long standing tradition" argument.  My brother and I used to go to games with my dad several times per month.  It was something I'll never forget.  But, we're ignoring that for the sake of this discussion.

Do you think it has anything to do with prices?  Let's see, Dave, you're a dad, and you have a 10-year old son and a 6 year old son.  You wanna go to the game...

Tickets: the cheapest seats in the house are $12 x3 = $36
Parking: $10
3 Hot Dogs: $15
3 Cokes: $12
2 Ice creams: $10

You just spent $83 to take your 2 kids to the game.  Granted you could bitch slap them when they ask for ice cream.  Do you think this is a factor, though?

you could get the 4 for $40 deal the marlins do .. 4 tickets, 4 hot dogs, 4 cokes for 40 bucks

I don't think price is that much of a driving factor.  $82 bucks for an evening that full, for 3 people is not THAT much.

I spend that much going out to dinner and drinks with my old lady.
So, no.  I don't think that's it.

I think we're missing the corporate crowd, too.  The local businesses who buy tickets and give them to their employees to stop by for a few innings after work.  ...that kind of thing.

There are nights on a whim that I'll go down to Ft. Lauderdale to go see some live music.   I would never do that for a Marlins game, as is.  It's too much of an ordeal to get down there and do it.  And there's no atmosphere.  Shrinking the size of the stadium would really help for that.

I don't think this is still available this season.  I can't find it on their website anywhere.  They have this now:

http://florida.marlins.mlb.com/fla/ticketing/group/all_you_can_eat.jsp?partnerId=120x240_ticketsspecific_FLA_ayce080108

edit - this is available thru ticketmaster:
For the CBS4 for $54 package, tickets must be purchased in multiples of 4. Fish Tank seats are $54, other sections are available for the offer at a different price. Included in the offer is 4 tickets, 4 Sodas/Waters, 4 Hot Dogs, and 2 programs, and it must be bought in multiples of 4. Vouchers for the food and drink will be included with your order

I think it would be in the best long-term interests of the franchise if they aggressively pursued the "father bringing kids" demographic. Free tickets on certain days, hot dog/ice cream specials for kids, promotions where the kids run the bases, etc... All of that, if done consistently for the next 15-20 years, profit-be-damned, is what can turn this into a baseball market. Kids need to grow up knowing that when thay want to have fun, they go see the Marlins. They need to know that it is "normal" to go to a game every couple of weeks or so, instead of once per season. These kids need to know this so that they understand that part of their job, once they grow up and become dads themselves, is to take their kids to the ballgame.

And we, as fans, need to understand that the type of fan-loyalty that is present in some of these older franchises doesn't happen in one generation. It has to carry over, and over, and over, so the local baseball team is as much a part of our world as going to the movies or Mickey D's.

Sunday is family fun day and all kids under 12 can run the bases after the game - Marlins have been doing that for years.

This is actually a great price for a night out at a ball game.  Parking in Boston will cost you $50-$100 alone.

When you look at what the Marlins draw it's not awful (as I said before).  16,000 per game is more than the Panthers drew on average - and the Marlins play a heck of a lot more games.  My entire concern are these random less than 1,000 'hiccups.'  

If you move that game to the night time - and it isn't raining - the general thought seems to be that the attendance might have been much more.  That is really all I have been trying to get at this entire time.  You guys have got to see how that number is really unacceptable for a pro team.  But you're also right in that there are circumstances that weigh in:  amazing heat, the heat index and mid week game all factor in.

Stadium placement makes a lot of difference.  Anyone on this board ever been to the Trop in Tampa?  That stadium is VERY hard to get to.  Tampa would seemingly have everything that you would think would work in Florida:  dome, good team, newer stadium built solely for baseball.  I wonder how many people stay away in Tampa based solely on the fact that getting to that stadium is like trying to solve the Rubik's Cube while drunk on Boone's?

I've been to the Trop a few times and I agree - its a nightmare.  Getting out after the game is much easier but if you don't get to the game 3 hours early, you're walking a mile to get to the stadium.  No joke, a full mile.  Not to mention that its really easy to get lost without a GPS navigator.

But, I don't think its "hard to get to the stadium" where the Marlins are concerned.  Jump on the Turnpike and there's a dedicated "Stadium" exit that basically drops you into the parking lot.  I think things that hurt include lack of public transportation (trains and such so people can come from far away) and the fact, like Dave said, that its in the middle of a residential neighborhood.  But, neither of those factors keep the Dolphins from selling nearly 80,000 tickets each week.

While I think a baseball stadium would make for a more enjoyable experience, I don't think the stadium is the Marlins' problem.

Okay - but I keep hearing recurring things that keep people away:  the fact that it's a football stadium and the seating is weird (at best) for Marlins games and heat.  If the Trop were in Miami (a dome built for baseball) you don't think that would help?

I don't think it's fair to compare the Marlins and the Dolphins.

1) The Dolphins have been around a lot longer and are a lot, lot more popular.
2) The Dolphins only play at home once every 2 weeks.
3) Dolphins games are on the weekend, not in the middle of the week.



Things that are hurting the Marlins, fan loyalty aside:

1) Location
2) Surrounding entertainment, food, and nightlife.
3) Stadium size and layout.

------

Go watch the Heat play.  They are hard to get to, as well, but they have 2 of the three things listed above.  There's a lot to do around the stadium.  There are bars, clubs and restaurants that are active whether the Heat are playing or not.  If you had a similar setup for baseball, where a family is having dinner and the game is starting soon, maybe they'll swing by.  ...that's what you're missing by placing your stadium among government subsidized housing in a residential area.

Its hard to say, because I personally am not one of those that have that problem. True the heat is brutal during day games but we still went to two this season on Sundays and if you keep yourself hydrated with $4 gatorades, its not that bad.  I went to a Sunday afternoon in July and a gain in August and yes, a dome would help that.  But, I don't think "lack of a dome" is the root cause of why people don't go to games.

I can only speak for myself, and for me, the problem lies in the fact that people just don't give a flying rat's ass about the Marlins.

Dave, a baseball game isn't a "hey we're having dinner at Bubba Gump and there's a baseball game going on, let's swing by" event.  In New York, games are sold out, you can't swing by, you have to fight people months ahead of time to get tickets.  I don't think anyone is going to go to a baseball game any more if they built a bar next store...  People (usually) go to watch baseball.

I think that the firesale right after the world series in 97 hurt a lot.  I think if they didn't sell and were a decent team again in 98 they would have picked up a ton of bandwagon fans. 

I think excitement creates more excitement.  Sell-outs make people want to buy tickets.  Right now, that cycle isn't in effect.

So, by making the stadium easily accessible to people who just want to make a fun night of things, on the easy and relatively cheap, it's a tough sell, as is.

Going back to Maine's original post.  I can see all of that happening, but not with the current plans in place.  Unless they can have some sort of shuttle service to take people from the MetroRail to the Orange Bowl site, it's not gonna fly.  Traffic was tough enough for Hurricanes games in that area and that was only 6-7 Saturdays in the fall, plus the Orange Bowl Classic on New Years night.  Imagine 81 games, most of them played on a hot, muggy weeknight in midsummer. 

The Orange Bowl site is just a bad place to be.  It's way far South, and much of your fanbase can't access it.  It's in a bad neighborhood and there aren't people already there.

I think you're going to have to bring the baseball to where the people already are.

When I went to Columbus to visit, we walked right up to where the Blue-Jackets play.  We weren't there for that reason, but the way that downtown is designed, it's among the other things.  We ended up going to some sports bar to hang out.  There was a nightlife outside of that game.  I think that's what we need down here.

nice.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  A downtown Miami ballpark on the BiCentennial Park site would've been the best option.  Ease of access from the Metrorail/Metromover, and Bayside is right there. 

You'd still lose a lot of Palm Beach/Broward fans in that location. Getting to downtown Miami after work? For a 7 PM start?

I'm a baseball nut, I want my ass in my seat well before the first of 10,000 ceremonial first pitches is thrown

Our stadiums and hockey arena are all downtown.

Probably right.  Problem is that you can't be in a 'could have / would have' world.  The firesale happened and now the marketing department needs to find a way to grow that 16,000 per game fan base.

If you can grow that 2-3% a year things will be fine.  This season won't hurt.  Smallest payroll by a mile in the league and the team is GOOD.  Don't think that folks won't notice that come next spring training.  I would think that you'll see that 16,000 per game creep up to 18,000 ish per game as long as they build on this season, and I think they will.

Ooh, ooh, ooh... Can I play the coulda-woulda-shoulda game??

The Marlins shoulda started their franchise back in 1920, so the last 3 generations coulda followed them closely. Then, maybe I woulda not have to listen to AL Elitists whining about the attendance in my ballpark.

They would be better off if they moved to Orlando, FL. Orlando has the logistics, transportation and infrastructure to support the Marlins. SF doesn't. You can put the park 15 miles South of Orlando or by the Sports Complex where all the other attractions are and it would work. Keep the name Florida Marlins and everything is cool.

...says the Padres "fan"...

AL Elitist...yada yada yada...yawn...
(http://www.newmexiconuts.net/catalog/tumbleweed.jpg)

What does that make if I agree with Maine?  ???

A very smart woman, wise beyond your years? :)

Who knows.  A broken clock is correct twice a day, every now and again I might stumble across something too. 

I've wanted to chim ein on this,but I'm in podunk and plowed ground here.....But I look at teams like the Royals,and say The Royals ARE part of the attraction to K.C.. The Royals,and the Chiefs (Ok I think they have a soccer team too) The Royals are something to do in between Chiefs seasons....It's part of the reason why I think the Oklahoma Thunder will work..They're the only game in town....We don't get to se Royals games here....We barely get a score here...

I know you can make the arguement for other teams too....I think each situation has it's pluses and minus'.Which would I rather sit at a day game in August? K.C. or Miami...K.C. anyday of the week....No Beach bunnies in K.C.

The only expierence I can equate it too was the moinor league teams we have here...The Ozark Mountain ducks,were not Affiliated with MLB,they built the stadium in Ozark Mo. (About half way between Springfield And Branson).It worked for a few years,the team was pretty good in the league they were in.Even though the Area was growing and the money was there,you couldn't grow the love for it...Then John Q Hammons stepped in,built a stadium smack dab in the middle of of Springfield,and brought in the AA Cardinals affiliate to play in...They draw good crowds....IT works....(it also helps you can see major leagers on their way back to the big leaguies..Hell the St. Louis Cardinals have played here twice...(I think Pujols Damaged my Roof with one of his moon shots...)

I see both sides of this....and think Both sides have Legit arguements....