The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Should Sir Dropsalottaballs be cut or traded? I think he should be...but not to anyone in the AFC East. Send him to Cleveland or Cincinnati. If he can't catch passes from Chad Pennington, there's no hope for him.

Maybe add a poll to this?

I think that he's shown some progress this year. I say keep him.

What trade value does he have?  There is no reason to get rid of him if we can't get any value out of him.

Modified to add: I voted no.

I doubt anyone would take Ginn or offer much for him,  given his fat contract and limited productivity , unless it was to swap salaries with some other teams malcontent or underperformer. I can't imagine any team giving up a draft choice for him.

He has shown flashes (see buffalo game #1), but generally Ted has been underwhelming.

he's a first round pick, he will absolutely play out his rookie contract... after that, who knows.

he's improved, and here's hoping he gets better. its amazing though how camarillo has outplayed him, and the undrafted dreadlocked wonder (bess) is just better than him right now.

bess is the perfect example of why its soooo hard to project the receiver position at the nfl. bess posted incredibly slow times for his size at the combine, and lead to him being undrafted. however, bess understands how to create space, dunno if its route running or technique or what. but the kid can get open and create nice open windows for the qb to throw into.

Can you please explain what progress Ginn has shown? ???

I am far from a Ginn apologist, but did anyone see the play where Ginn had to SLOW down for the ball when CP threw that bomb to him, 2 defenders had enough time to catch up and deflect the ball (almost intercepted). Ginn is a (maybe a stretch, but not comparing talent) a Randy Moss type, a thin and fast no contact receiver. He'll get open down field, and if Miami had a Favre type QB you can count on a bit more production.

Where was Bess before Camarillo? He's taken his spot, and BOOM, production.

Is it any wonder that noodles' favorite receivers are the short route runners?

Like I said before, Pennington is what he is, and if dink and dunks are winning games, fine. But, don't be surprised when our WIDE receivers disappear from time to time.

there are a number of different skills, besides just running a go route, that make an effective nfl wide receiver. if the only way ginn can beat coverage is to go far down the field and just outrun them, then he won't last very long in the nfl.

ginn != moss

moss is a lot bigger and stronger so by just his physical nature he creates some space around him. ginn has to rely more on precision route running, coverage recognition, technique, etc... to create more consistent separation from the db's. on all those measurables, both camarillo and bess are significantly better. to his defense though, those guys are smallish wr's, not as fast as ginn, and have probably been working at those skills for a longer time.

You guys have it backwards.  You need to trade your players that are hot, not those that suck.

You paid a 1st round pick on Ginn.  You're going to get peanuts in return.

If he sucks so much why would you not want him to go to a division rival?

You gotta keep him, let him play out his contract.  if he's a 5 or 6 year vet and he still drops 4 or 5 balls a game, then no contract for you.  But, you guys have got to stop putting the microscope on Ginn so much.  He's never going to be a game changer as long as Pennington is our QB.  We just don't run that type of offense.

Don't get me wrong...I WANT to like Ted Ginn. But, he's had one or 2 good games in almost 2 seasons. I don't buy the theory that Ginn will be better once he has a QB that can throw the deep ball. Cleo Lemon could throw the deep ball, and Ginn dropped his passes too. A pass is a pass, and CP will put it right in a reveivers hands most of the time.

Agree to disagree.  Pennington can't throw the deep ball.  Its a documented fact.

Ted Ginn is a speedster deep-threat receiver.  Maybe its the fault of the coaching staff for not adjust Ginn on shorter routes.  But, if Ginn requires safety attention on every play as a decoy, then so be it - it opens up the field for the short stuff. 

You guys do realize that Ginn is our leading receiver this year?

In his second season, he's projected to have 57 catches for 771 yards.

He has 50 now for 675.

He's dropped a couple in the last games, however, he's generally shown to have sure hands this year.

And he does draw the attention of safteys, freeing up Bess and Camarillo for the short stuff.

He's improved greatly over his rookie season.  No reason to believe he won't continue to improve next year.

It is ludicrious to even think about cutting or trading him now

^^^

I really hope Ginn makes me eat my words, and if he does, I'll be the first to admit it. But, I won't hold my breath.

blame the qb, blame the offense, blame the coach, not my fault...

675/1 td for a starting wr is not very good no matter who your qb or offense. hopefully recognizes that he needs to expand his receiving skill set beyond just a simple go route on single coverage. he's improved a little, but it's slow go with him. maybe it'll all come together for him end of this year heading into the offseason and yr #3.

given his size, he needs to put in a whole lot of work to get better at the art of getting open besides relying on your speed. if it was just all about speed, you would send scouts to the track meet and recruit the best 100/200/400 m runners.

I see Ginn as a Joey Galloway type of WR


Cleo Lemon could throw the deep ball, but he never did throw the deep ball...that's why Lemon sucks....well, a lemon (among other reasons).

Ginn is scared to go over the middle, and that's what you have to do on short routes.  He's scared of taking a good, solid whack. 

This criticism of Ginn is laughable.

The guy has been a KEY facet of our offense.

He has been directly responsible for at least 3 of our victories this year.  (Seattle, with that amazing TD catch.  Buffalo, when he shredded the Bills defense, and Oakland, with his TD run and key fourth down catch on the winning drive)

He has been money in the clutch.  In addition to that fourth down catch against Oakland, don't forget, in the opener against the Jets, he also caught a fourth down pass on our second TD drive.

He is our leading receiver this year.  He and Camarillo/Bess make a great tandem.  We shouldn't break that up.

Let's not lose our heads with our team's recent success.

Why on earth would we cut a guy who has been KEY to our success this year?

Considering there are 9 "no" votes and only 2 "yes" votes, most of us think we should keep him, at least for now.

Just think when next year/2 years from now, when Henne is in there, we can actually have someone to throw the deep ball to Ginn...Ginn is open all day every day on those deep routes...not to take anything away from Penny (it took me this long, but I'm finally over the fact that he was a stinkin' Jet, until he has a shitty game again  ;D).  I don't think we would be having close to this kind of season w/o him....but man that Ginn/Henne combo is going to be dangerous when it happens.

^^^

True. I just think 2 years is enough time to know whether someone is a success or not. Most of the drops I've seen him make are right there in his hands. Its not like CP is throwing balls just to his vicinity, and Ginn just can't bend his body to get them.

Yeah, but TO drops a lot of balls too

I have no idea how good or bad Ginn really is because on 9 out of 10 plays we don't see down field. He could be getting open, drawing double coverage or sucking it on pretty much every play and we wouldn't know.

Comments from Camarillo have lead me to believe that Ginn almost always attracts safety help, freeing up Camarillo... but other than that, I just cannot tell (and neither can most other fans, I suspect - you really need to be AT the games, and paying attention, or have super secret access to the all-22 footage to have an idea).

I feel like Ginn has the Same Problem Chris Chambers had..Everyone listened to the guys in the Booth Calling Dolphins games...."Chris Chambers has the Potential to be A Number 1 Reciever,But...." Dolphin Fans Never took Chris For what he was a Solid Number 2 WR....

Ginn, IMO Will never Blossom into that Great Number 1 WR....That will Justify the number 9 over all pick,but his importance to this team right now is Huge...His Speed requires a Safety to stay over the top of him, Opening up the under neath routes for Bess, D.Martin,and A. Fasano....I think the Loss of Camarillo has Hurt Ginn the Most,We had Bess sitting in the Slot the Nifty Quick guy for the over the Middle, The Ginn Burner on one side,and Camarillo the all around OK receiver, He could run the Possession routes well,and still took the shots down the field with him occasionally (15yards +,Hey We're Talking Pennington here) I've noticed we haven't really Taken any shots down the field with Bess,and London,and Wilford have proved little threats there also....

I think Henne throwing to Ginn,would put him in the Hester area as a WR Hester Doesn't make alot of good catches right now..But being able to chuck the ball down the field gets the yellow hankies....

I'd personally like to see him put on about 15-20 lbs of upper body muscle and get rid of that lanky scrawny look and be able to challenge people over the middle.

  What a ridiculous idea.

There it is.

How did Ginn and Camarillo compare stat wise before Camarillo was injured?

One TD makes someone a KEY Facet?  This guy is a bum, and should be let go or shipped out at the end of the season.  I dont care if he was a first round pick and I dont care if he is our leading reciever this year, he drops to many balls, disapears for weeks on end, and is generally a pussy who shys away from any sort of contact.  It seems like everyone is still in love with this guy for what reason??  One TD catch this year, big freaking deal, this guy is not that much of a threat.

Do people here really think that coaches and teams lose sleep at night thinking, How are we going to stop Ted Ginn??  No, the answer is no.  We need a reciever that is a game changer and Ted Ginn will never be that EVER!  Its always excuses for this guy, Chad has a week arm, he was in a bad system last year, give him a shot.  Trade him to Baltimore for a 6th or 7th rounder and let him be with reunited with Cam.  This guy needs to go.

Lorenzo Neal has a total of one TD over the last three years.  He's made the Pro Bowl for all of those same three years.

You do realize that a player can bring more to a team than just catching touchdowns, right?

Yes, I realize this, but are you really comparing a FB to a susposed franchise WR.  Neal has touched the ball a total of 81 times in the last 3 years, do we really want this same kind of production out of the ninth pick in the draft?  This guy was susposed to change the offensive culture of the franchise.  I am still waiting! I understand there are a few similarities when it comes to planning on another teams part, but the only question I ask is Ted Gin really bring these things to the Miami Dolphins on a weekly basis?  I dont think so.

Kirby, you made two critical mistakes in your post...

No one ever said Ted Ginn was a "franchise WR" - that's preposterous.  Expectations too high much?

Nope, Cam Cameron was supposed to change the offensive culture.  Last I checked, he's not here anymore.

How is this preposterous??   This guy was taken with the ninth pick in the first round, for what to be a situational WR and return kicks?  It just seems to me that someone the Dolphins thought so highly of to use such a high pick, warrants the title, "Franchise WR."  I mean, isn't it just assumed that when we took Jake Long with the first pick, he was going to be our franchise tackle?

There is a whale of a difference between #1 and #9.

But more importantly, how often do you think the first WR selected in a draft turns out to be a "franchise player"?  I mean, look at the first WRs to be selected over the last 10 years (Ginn was the second in 07, after Calvin Johnson):

99- Torry Holt (6)
00- Peter Warrick (4)
01- David Terrell (8)
02- Donte Stallworth (13)
03- Charles Rogers (2)
04- Larry Fitzgerald (3)
05- Braylon Edwards (3)
06- Santonio Holmes (25)
07- Calvin Johnson (2)
08- [no WR taken in first round]

Most of those players were drafted significantly higher than Ginn.  Of those ten drafts, only two of those players are bona fide franchise WRs (Holt and Fitzgerald; jury still out on Calvin Johnson).  The rest are comparable to Ginn or worse.

Furthermore, if you look at most other franchise WRs like Harrison, Moss, Owens, Ward, Ocho Cinco, and Steve Smith, none of them were taken with top 10 picks.

Generally speaking, most highly rated WRs are outright busts.  Expecting Ginn to be a Pro Bowler because he was drafted ninth is fairly unreasonable.

The only way the jury is still out on Calvin is if you haven't watched Calvin this year...I'd put him right there with Fitz as far as top young franchise WRs go.

I think you're trying to assign the word "franchise" to a guy at every position.  How many teams have a franchise nose tackle?  or a franchise punter?  Realistically, each team MAYBE only has one or two franchise PLAYERS, and a first round draft pick is not what earns you that title.

Calvin Johnson hasn't even been in the league for two years yet.  Unless he was so incredibly awesome that he's already made the Pro Bowl (he hasn't), it's too early to judge.

Is he the best young WR in the league?  Sure.  But he's not established himself at the top level yet, from a consistency standpoint, and he hasn't made a Pro Bowl yet.

Calvin Johnson has 65 catches for 1165 yards 17.9 avg 10 TD playing for the worst team in football... he has also played with 5 different QBs this season putting up these numbers...  Johnson HAS already established himself as a top level WR despite playing for the WINLESS Lions. ;)



 

can we trade ginn for c johnson  ;D

note: i jokingly meant calvin johnson and no please not ocho stinko johnson

Expecting Ginn to CATCH the ball and to be able to run more than just ONE route is NOT unreasonable.

For what it's worth, I remember Nat Moore "disappearing" while David Woodley was the QB and then looking awesome when Marino took over.   

So you're saying that he's the best WR not to make the Pro Bowl?

One good season does not a franchise WR make.

and one "slightly above average" season does not make a bad RB (I'm talking to you Tepop).

sorry for the hijack

Talent..."does" a franchise WR make.

Calvin is as much a "franchise" WR as any WR in the league right now. You could take Calvin, put him in ANY other WR's spot for that team, and that position either improves or stays the same... There isn't a single example where I think you drop in Calvin and drop in talent. I'm including Fitz, Moss, Smith, Boldin, Owens...all of 'em. He plays for the worst team in the game, sees double coverage on damned near every play, has a no-talent hack with a hockey name throwing the ball, and he STILL is having a monster season in his first full season as the starter.  He's 6'5" and runs a 4.3. He's strong enough to beat DBs into a pulp, fast enough to embarrass them deep, and hands that can snatch a feather out of the air in rush hour traffic.

NFL awards a new NFL franchise to me and the city of Boca Raton tomorrow, and tells me that I can select 1 player from any other team to play for me...but it has to be a wide receiver.  Calvin is the WR I am taking, and I am not hesitating in the call.

And you have no idea about his durability, nor whether he will turn into another psycho like Moss/Owens/Ocho Cinco.

I am not willing to label a WR that has yet to make a Pro Bowl a "franchise player" during his second season.  Sorry.

His lack of psycho headcase status is actually a plus for Calvin, though it certainly didn't impede Moss or Owens from becoming elite WRs. As far as durability goes...if Fitz goes down tomorrow, is he still a franchise WR? How about Moss? Any talk about future player performance assumes that all will enjoy an equal amount of health. Injured players aren't franchise anythings... Talent-wise, you can't produce an argument against Calvin.


No problem...I recognize what he is clearly enough for both of us. ;)

How did Pro Bowls suddenly become a measuring stick worth a crap?

Because no one really gives a damn about the game anymore.  Every NFL player wants to make the Pro Bowl, but no one wants to actually play in it. 

If they moved the game to midseason, it would matter more. 

They've both been in the league for longer than 2 years.

If Fitzgerald or Moss go down tomorrow, they've already shown a long history of durability.  The same cannot be said of Johnson, yet.

If Moss goes down tomorrow he has already done enough to get his ticket punched to Canton.  He broke Rice's record. 

^^^ And played bumper cars with a car-less traffic officer...that has to get him in.

As far as Moss breaking Rice's single season TD record goes... Moss took 16 games to accomplish what Jerry did in 12. ;)

Moss did it in one season, Rice did it in once season.  If you want to claim Rice did it in 12 games you have to acknowledge Moss did it in 13. 

What are you talking about? Moss played all 16 games in 2007 when he broke Jerry's record, and he didn't break the record until week 17. Jerry played in 12 games when he set the record.

Moss, 2007:  http://www.nfl.com/players/randymoss/gamelogs?id=MOS699912&season=2007 (http://www.nfl.com/players/randymoss/gamelogs?id=MOS699912&season=2007)
Rice, 1987:  http://www.nfl.com/players/jerryrice/gamelogs?id=RIC128880&season=1987 (http://www.nfl.com/players/jerryrice/gamelogs?id=RIC128880&season=1987)

How about Ginn.  Another big play in a Dolphins win

4 catches for 44 yards, and a nice 31 yard run for a TD.

Ted certainly contributed today. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think this is the best we can expect. Drafted so high, Cam-moron planned to get a star probowl level WR, but his career arc will likely never reach that level. But if he can make some plays to help the team win and contribute like he did today, then that's going to be good enough.

I'm rethinking my stance on this thread.

Don't.  Anyone can have a game like he did today.  Let's see him do it on a consistent basis before we start acknowledging him as a #1 worthy receiver.

^^^

Not a number one. But not cut or traded either.

Which was precisely my point. Ted Ginn will likely never be an elite player, but he is good enough to keep on the team, and can do some things on the field to help the team win.

^^

At least I'm willing to concede unlike someone else here.  ;D

Why start there?

I mean, when Ginn has a big receiving game, you insist that the credit must be given to the QB.
When Ginn has a big day running or returning, why not just give the credit to the outstanding blocking?

That way, we can safely avoid ever giving Ted Ginn any credit at all.

Making the Pro Bowl isn't that impressive anymore... it is just a popularity contest.... there are alot of good players who should be in Hawaii who are not, and there are some players who made the Pro Bowl that do not deserve it.

As far as Calvin Johnson goes, Stroke made a STRONG argument for him being an elite WR in the NFL.

He hasn't been the game breaker everyone expected him to be.... matter of fact, he's been invisible a lot more often than he has been noticed.

WHO EXPECTED HIM TO BE A GAME BREAKER?!?

I expected him to be a servicable #2 WR.  A guy who could stretch the field and occupy a safety or two on short plays.  I expected him to make some noise in the return game, contribute in field position, and give us a speed threat on the outside.

I NEVER expected him to be able to single-handedly take over a game.  I think trading away Chris Chambers hurt Ginn more than we all want to recognize...

Exactly, ANYONE can have a game like this!  Why does everyone look at this guy with rose colored glasses on??  4 catches  for 44 yards and 31 yard TD that my grandma could of scored on from the grave, and we want to anoint this guy as the second coming of God!

It's funny how that 31 yard TD was so easy that any of us could have done it, and yet somehow the Dolphins don't run that play every week.  Why is that?

BECAUSE HE'S ON OUR TEAM!!

Get on board.

this coaching staff is really good... they make some mistakes here and there, but that's to be expected. if the personnel side of things stays equally as good, the dolphins organization is going to be a powerhouse.

ginn still has a lot to work on to continue to develop into a consistent receiver (what you would expect from a #1 wr), but he has a lot of natural talent. the coaching staff is putting him in situations to maximize his ability in helping the offense.

i have a feeling ginn is going to play a big role in the fins beating of the jets on sunday. the jets defense looks like its out of gas, and ginn is a nice piece to have in your playbook at this point against the jets.

i may be in the minority but i like Ginn. The only thing i care about in a player is that he helps the team win, whether it would be in a big way or a small one. Even if just his presence in the field allows for a receiver to get open.