The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I was in first grade when it happened, so I obviously it didn't affect me, however, I've seen documentaries on it and questions still remain.  I'd like to hear from military personnal on this site who might be able to answer them.

1) Why does the military give soldiers Kevlar armour plates?  One of the officers in the shootout was wearing a Kevlar armour vest and the gunmen's bullets penetrated right through it.  With the high tech weaponry America's enemies possess, wouldn't it be more sensible to use aramid? 

2) The gunmen wore aramid body armour.  When SWAT was called, they used automatic weapons that were supposed to be able to penetrate it.  However, during the final shootout with Mataseranu, one officer shot him at point black range in the chest, however, Mataseranu was saved by his armour.  The officers had to shoot his unprotected legs to end the fight.  Is aramid capable of withstanding any bullet? That's what is disturbing about this to me.  It could happen again and this time, if the crimminals wear leg protection, that outcome could be much different, and much more tragic. 

I am not a military person, but I can answer some of your questions.

Kevlar is a type of aramid, in fact the most common type.  I think the robbers had kevlar as well.

The robbers were wearing military grade body armor the police wore law enforcement grade (lighter, less uncomfortable, but less protection than military grade.)
 
The other difference was the robbers had armor piercing bullets and the cops did not.  The robbers also had more powerful riffles than the swat team. 
 

Its like saying , why do the Police drive 4 door Fords when Hummers are available? Co$t.  My City Offered me up to $700 for my vest when I was hired. You need to remember you work in 90* heat at times and most of the time your going hands on with someone , not going to be in a shootout. Best option is get the best allaround vest. I paid and extra $160 for steel inserts on my chest . Every 5 years they will put another $700 up for a new one.

Defense I am guessing yours will repeal a knife or a .22 but wouldn't stop an M16 fired at close range.

Not a knife. Its not designed for that.  A ballistic vest absorbs energy and spreads it through the way the fibers are intertwined. A knife cuts, they have chain vests for prisons were shanks and stuff are an issue. I do have a steel metal plate in a pocket in the vest over my heart though. .22  ,9mm even a .40 might cause a cracked rib or a punctured lung, but no boo-boo through the skin.

The vest were wore overseas were heavy and cumbersome which reduces mobility and is very uncomfortable to wear for long periods of time. It also puts a lot of stress on the neck, shoulders, lower back, and knees. There have been a lot of injuries just due to the vest themselves.
The SAPE plates we used were replaced with an upgraded plate to better withstand the newer AP rounds from the AK's.
Even with the upgraded armor, not all rounds were stopped from penetrating.
My vest with regular plates weighed 30lbs. This was with no ammo or any gear that would go on the vest as you could not wear the other gear anywhere else on your upper body.
By the time I was geared up for going outside the wire, my armor weighed in at over 60lbs.
That is why law enforcement armor is so different than the military armor. It is a bitch to move around and to get in and out of vehicles.

Mataseranu's armour DID stop an M-16 at close range

He was wearing trauma plates underneath which might have helped. 

Exactly. I know some oldschool cops that wear nothing still. Its just too uncomfortable for them. They didn't really exist 20-30 yrs ago for Law Enforcement so its hard for them to get used to it. I feel naked without it. But you can only wear so much of it and still be effective day in and day out. Under fire I want to be able to run and get out the way then be bullet proof anyday of the week.

I remember this like it was yesterday as I have relatives in the North Hollywood area.  I remember watching it with typical arm chair QB comments, wondering where the hell SWAT was.  I couldn't believe officers in that part of the country, facing what they face on a daily basis, didn't have more fire power in their cruisers. 

What bs says is on the mark.  From what I understand, these guys carried an extreme amount of armor on them.  In addition to being woefully out-gunned, the L.A. PD were basically doing the equivallant of trying to bring down a polar bear with a .22 caliber weapon. 

These guys knew exactly what they were going to be in for and prepared for exactly that.  The extra weight these guys carried around was said to be that of about five bowling balls.  You can't expect patrol to be able to do that, not long term.

Here is something I'll never understand about the response to this:  Phillips and Matasareanu had been in action before.  They robbed a couple armed cars.  It isn't like the police didn't know their M.O.  The jacked an armored car two years earlier for something like 1.5 million. 

And, yet, the responding officers had a 9mm, a 38 and a 12 gauge.  Hooray. The responding 5-0 didn't have a prayer, God bless 'em.  Their suspects had full body armor and metal trauma plates.  In addition they were hopped up on barbiturates to slow everything down.  Those officers walked into a gun battle with soup spoons.

18 minutes.  That is how long it took SWAT to get there.  18 freakin' minutes. SWAT came to play but holy crap it took them too long to respond.  The 40th MP Company of Los Alamitos has a splinter MP / CID unit in Burbank, it would have taken them about 8 minutes to deploy if asked. 

I don't think I will ever understand the time it took for that SWAT to arrive.

I general am the last to go out on a limb to defend the action of the LAPD, but Maine I think you are being overly critical of the LA Swat team.

It is not like the LA SWAT team is kept in a state of readiness equivilant to a fire department.  It takes time to assess that they are needed, notify people, assemble, travel and deploy. 

I seriously doubt that 40th MP company would have gotten off base within 8 mintutes of a call to deploy let alone gotten to the scene. 

It wasn't a fair fight.  One side showed up prepared to have a gun battle with people carring armor piercing bullets, the other didn't.  But given how rare events like this one that occured over a decade ago occur, I don't see why anyone would expect cops to be prepared for it like it was an every day occurance.

It is however reason to prohit the sale and possesion of armor piercing bullets to non-military/non-LEO and prohibit body armor.     

^^^ I can see prohibiting the sale of armor piercing ammunition, but the moment you try to take away a person's right to buy body armor, you start treading on that person's right to protect himself in an increasingly nutty and violent world.

Not to pull rank on you here, however...

Me = former military

You = not

I am very clear on how long it would take an MP unit to mobilize when called.

I am also very well versed on how long it should take a SWAT unit to respond, in the least a partial response.

For my dollar, 18 minutes was a butt screw long time for SWAT to respond.  Ask one of the one of the uniformed officers that was pinned down while trying to defend himself by tossing pebbles at the guys if HE thought SWAT was a touch slow to respond and see what they think.

18 minutes of being pinned down by superior firepower.  18 minutes.  Man.

At the time this happened, The L.A. office had 15 SWAT teams.  The D team was supposed to be the rapid responder.  I guess I'm not considering 18 minutes a rapid response.  Even the robbers expected a quicker response, they were prepared for a SWAT invasion at 8 minutes.  North Hollywood isn't exactly an area that isn't well patrolled.

My educated opinion, based on my real world experience.  I get where you are coming from in that 18 minutes isn't a long time in other circumstances.  In this one it is...at least for me, based on the region and resources available.  If this were in Fall River and the 1st available SWAT was in Southie, I can buy 18 minutes.  Not North Hollywood. 

Nice BS way to try and end a discussion.

If you are former military than you should know damn well that an MP unit can't be mobilized for bank robbery.  So your 8 min stat is total BS and you are talking out of your ass.     




*edited to remove personal attack.  (Please don't do that.)

Logical fallacy = Argument of Authority
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

SWAT team members do not sit around playing cards waiting for a crisis. They are all in other parts of the force. Traffic, the Road, ect.  First up a Lt or higher has to determine the need. Then depending on the crisis they will meet at the station and suit up and get briefed and then respond .  In an extreme crisis someone can get the Van and they will meet on site and get briefed while getting prepared.

So.....

LT or Captain determines the need.

SWAT members are mobilized

They need to be briefed

RESPONSE


18 minutes sounds about right.

The one thing that I never got about that incident ........Why weren't they gassed? Armour or not, a couple Pepper bullets under the chin will bring almost any grown man to his knees.

Fire department High Powered water hoses.......Knock them on their asses. Oh thats right , fireman are pussies.  ;D  (just kidding)

What I don't get was why they didn't call for SWAT as soon as they heard the automatic gunfire in the bank?

And the fact is, SWAT couldn't penetrate the robber's armour, so what would the next step be?  A knockout gas?

Unfortunately its a buisness that's ruled by recent events. Very knee jerk reaction decision making. If a department chief where to arm people to the teeth without sufficent cause they could look like bullies or war mongers. its a very political chess game at that level. Most of the time it takes a tragic incident to occur before suffient action can be taken . You can bet that the NYPD and the LAPD as well as several other large Law Enforcement agencies now have armed forces level gear with ex Armed forces personnel manning it.  But to get the backing they needed events like this one and 9/11 to refer to.

Which would hinder law enforcement.  Giving police bigger guns 99% of the time will not doing anything to deter crime. 

Crime is solved and prevented by having citizen who trust the police talk to the police.  Having cops walk around with M16s isn't going to do anything to make them more approachable. 

The most effective cop is the a beat cop who looks like the folks who live in the same neighborhood he walks for 20 years, know all the regulars at coffee shop, knows what kids live in the neighborhood and which ones don't and has earned the trust of all the neighborhood gossips. 

While I agree with you I think you missed my point. We all now have AR15's and shotguns in our cars , we can't take them out unless justified. But we have'em.   10 Yr's ago that wasn't the case.  It took a tragedy to make it OK to carry them.

No, it was an accurate one.  I have experience in the subject matter.  You do not.


Please point out the part in my post where I said the local MP unit should have been deployed?  I didn't.  I said that based on the location of the unit to the location of the event, it would take about 8 minutes for them to reach their target "if asked."  So no, I'm not "talking out of my ass."  The unit is a National Guard unit and, thus, under the leadership of the esteemed governor of that state. 

That unit could be asked to direct traffic, if need be.  A nation guard unit, again under the directive of the governor (or territorial AG) can mobilize a unit for an domestic emergency.  Doesn't happen - but could.  Christ, my unit was mobilized once to fill sand bags and try to avoid the flooding of downtown area of Augusta, Maine and attempting to protect businesses.  Another time I was mobilized to go door to door during an ice storm and mass power outage on a search and rescue. 

Again, I served.  You didn't.  I know.  You don't.  Ain't no thing.

My statements are based on fact and experience.  I realize the audience I speak to (meaning you) and that little four letter word (f-a-c-t) scares you...but it is what it is.  Say it with me.  C'mon, it feels good...

FACT.

You could argue that this type of firepower isn't always readily needed in every day law enforcement, though.  Couldn't you?  I agree you should have it, however specialized units were developed specfically for these type of events.

An AR15 is a bad mo-fo. Say you were a first responder on scene at this event and had an AR15.  You still would have been under gunned due to the heavy armor these idiots were prancing around in.  It would have squared up the fight a little, to be sure, but either way you would have needed that hammer unit to bring the heat to squash it.  Yes?

That said, I'm glad you have that in your car.  The world is too crazy for you not to.  I pray you never have to use it.

That is a terrible, terrible argument.

I fogot how out of touch with the world I was in 1997. I was living in WV with no television and working at a ski resort where I usually spent the day from before sunrise to after nightfall. I didn't even know when this event happened.

Maine,
I understand what you are trying to say, but as a former serving member of the 40th ID there is one problem with your scenario.
While units are allowed to keep weapons in their arms room safe, all ammunition is stored at Camp San Luis Obispo. This is because there have been several high profile break in's to armories and weapons were stolen.
During the LA Riots in 92, the first units on scene had no ammunition. My unit did not recieve ammo until we landed at El Toro.
Unless they changed the rules after the riots, that MP unit, while well trained and I am sure eager to help would have had no ammunition.
A lot has changed after this incident. I know for a fact that the CHP now has equipped their cars with both a shotgun and a high powered rifle and extra ammo in the trunk in case a firefight breaks out. I am sure other departments have done the same.

I couldn't imagine this situation being one that an MP unit would need to be deployed to - I was merely trying to make a connection with response time. 

I think it's wild that you had to wait to get your ammo from El Toro!  Holy crap.  But, as you say, that was '92 that we're talking about. 

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.  You were on the ground for the riots?  I would love to hear your accounts of that.

Dave - of course it's a terrible argument.  Not lost on me.  Again, please consider my specific audience member in this regard. 

If a person can't speak from experience, what point of view are they able to?

In this situation, again, I've been in a position where rabid mobilization was required (1).  I understand what is required for that level of readiness.  I know the area that we're speaking of very well (2), so I can speak to the geographic challenges posed to get from 'a' to 'b.'

Combining my actual experience with 1 + 2 makes for one hell of an educated guess, one that - far and away - exceeds an educated guess of someone that lacks experience of 1 + 2. 

Experience in a subject matter, now and again, actually does provide someone an upper hand when it comes to knowledge regarding a subject matter.

Yes? 

You were not speaking from experience.  You were ending an argument, based on your perceived authority, rather than on the merits of your argument, from that experience.  It is pompous and it is also a poor argument.

It was an interesting experience. To go from growing up in a small town that had one black kid in the high school to south central LA was eye opening to say the least.

^I am the 180 of you, of sorts.

One of my grandparents is black.  I have a sister, she is very dark and quite clearly took that part of the family lineage.  She literally looks like she is from a different family.  Weird how that happens.  I am pasty white, I make Casper the Ghost look Latino.  I grew up in East Oakland and was one of maybe four white kids that I knew. 

When we moved to Maine I was 16...culture shock.  Short of my own family (the side that is white), I had never been around this many white people in my life...much less all the trees and open space.  We moved from Oakland, CA to Clinton, ME (until we settled in Augusta).  Clinton is about 30 minutes north of Augusta and home to less than 5,000 souls.  A blinking light on Main Street, a gas station that closes for the day at 4pm and one grocery store.  And lots and lots of white folk! 

I get what you are saying!