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I followed up from another thread (Walmart) to read about Sons of Confederate Veterans and found these two things.  


1) the club rejects the notion that the Confederacy was fighting for slavery
and
2) the words from a  Confederate soldier Julius Howell who spoke of his time after he was captured. He addressed the Congress of the United States in Washington in 1944 at the old age of 98.

“I arose pretty early,” he says. “There were 20,000 of us there. I saw a flag pole, and a flag stopped halfway.”

...

“I stuck my head in a tent and said, 'Boys, there must be some big Yankee dead.’ ”

A guard told the men later that the president had been shot. Howell says he felt no hatred toward Lincoln, only kindness.

“We didn’t fight for the preservation or extension of slavery,” he says. “It was a great curse on this country that we had slavery. We fought for states’ rights, for states’ rights


I bring this up only because so many people see the Confederate flag as hate and racism. I've never seen anything in writing to show it is not until I had seen this. In fact it isn't just in writing, it is recorded.

Between 1781 and 1788 the American states experimented with a system of governing that had a very weak national government and strong state rights.  After much debate it was decided thru a fair and open democratic process that strong states rights and weak federal government would not work.  The American States than ratified the United States Constitution giving the federal government greater strength and weaking state independence.

In 1860 a Presidential election was held as prescribed by the Constitution of the United States of America which had almost a century earlier been agreed to by the states. 

The losers of this election disappointed that the candidate fairly lost the election decided to not honor the election but instead committed a series of acts of treason against the United States of America. 

In a long a bloody conflict the United States of America was able to force the traitors to end their treason against the United States of America. 

There is no difference between what these traitors did than what Timothy McVeigh did.  And there is no difference between paying tribute to these traitors than there is in paying tribute to McVeigh. 

Our great Constitution, which these traitors refused to respect, grants each person the right under the first amendment's freedom of speech the complete right to honor these traitors, just as the constitution give you the right to erect a monument honoring McVeigh. 

But honoring those traitors who committed treason and murder against the USA is no different than honoring McVeigh. 

Not to play Devil's Advocate (though he is a paid commercial sponsor)... If I were an organization that wanted to nuke the world, and I realized that nuking the world would be an unpopular position to the rest of the world, the first thing I'd probably do is put a quote up on my site from someone who eloquently denounced the nuking of the world.

Just saying... If someone who is reputed to be a white supremacist talks about "it not being about race," I won't take his comments as gospel without a good bit of support.

Hoodie, you would have made a great Tory during the Revolution.

I took a Civil War class and the first thing the teacher said was that the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about state's rights.  One issue of state's rights was slavery but there was a lot more to it than just slavery.  There is no way to know how people actually felt about race at that time.   Lincoln himself did not think blacks were equal to whites, but he did not think anyone should be a slave.

Here's how I feel about it.  It doesn't matter what one person feels about the confederate flag.  Over the years, the symbol has been adopted by these segregation movements, and there's no turning back on it now.

I'm sure that many Nazis didn't believe that their party endorsed genocide, and they weren't inherently racist, but that symbol no longer means "national socialism" like perhaps it once did.  If someone tried to re-launch the Nazi party, saying that genocide was a perversion of beliefs, they'd be laughed off.

We've seen the same with an attempted resurgence of the KKK, in the name of white pride (like the NAACP for whites), as opposed to a racist organization.  ...but it just ain't happenin'.

Ultimately, when you look at the facts, the Confederacy was a traitorous group that was granted a full pardon, given that they surrendered unconditionally.  Given that they accepted, I feel it inappropriate to still fly that flag with any pride.

I hear that state's rights argument alot.  Here is a question nobody has ever been able to answer with any specificity....

"What state rights had he federal government trampled upon the Southern states before the Civil war?  Other than possibly ending Slavery, what specific undermining of state rights had Lincoln supported undermining during his campaign to become President?"

^^^Since I wasn't alive then, I really don't know. But if you think there weren't any others then you are likely wrong. We are still fighing states rights issues to this very day. One right in the forefront is the use of medical marijuana.

I think its very difficult to argue this in 2010.

These people did not have access to any information. Most just knew their ways of life and a bunch of Yanks from up North was making them change. Thats it. Who are they to demand what I say or do? Life is different way up there. Our State should be able to decide it for us. Slavery was a part of it. But from what I read , it was not the slavery they were fighting for , but the fact they were not given options. No one likes to be told anything.  Imagine being brought up in those times. Then hearing a voice from 1000 miles away telling you to change. No if ands of buts. But its more dramtic to make them out as evil sinful terrorists. Different times .

Excellent point . Somethings need to be considered on a state level from those that actually live there and are educated on the subject. Who is some person 1000 miles away to make a judgement on a place he hasn't even visited?

I get that medical marijuana is a state's right issue TODAY.  It wasn't in 1860.  And today is hardly a reason to take up arms against the USA.  Might be valid reason to support one candidate over another.  

So going back to my question....what issue other than the possible ending of slavery, what was there that justified committing treason against the United States of America.   Specifically not the generic "states rights" or drug laws that were passed 100 years after the civil war.  

So, you want me to repeat that since I wasn't alive, I don't know? Google it. See what you can find.

I heard they Banned Lynard Skynard in several Yankee states...........Lincoln was a Zepplin Fan.

Fact is Yanks hadn't told them to do anything.  The emancipation proclamation occurred after the civil war began, and it is highly unlike it would have happened if the Civil War had not occurred.  In fact Lincoln was still the president-elect and not yet in office.

He got a bullet in the head for something.............

So did JFK. 

Those who argue that Confederates were in the right and Lincoln was in the wrong are no different in my book than those who would argue the Nazi's were in the right and FDR was in the wrong.   

I'll  give you another: same sex unions

As much as they try to claim that it was not about slavery look at actions of the fine sons of the south when it came to Reconstruction and its aftermath.
The southern economy and way of life with its grand manors, balls, and other English royalty type ways was predicated on an economic system that was only sustainable with a massive work force of slaves. If they had to pay a fair wage to the laborers, the owners would not have been able to afford their grandious lifestyles.
Also most of the skilled labor such as blacksmiths would have commanded top dollar and the majority of these craftsman were slaves doing it for free.
They also feared that the freed slaves would vote their own kind into office and take power as their were more slaves than whites in a lot of places.
This actually happened during the Reconstruction as freed slaves voted fellow former slaves into state and local offices and even into sheriff's office.
The southern Democrats were so worked up over Reconstruction and the realization of their worst fears that they sold the White House to the nothern Republicans when the presidential race was a tie if the Republicans would agree to end Reconstruction and pull out federal troops.

As soon as Reconstruction ended and the last troops left the south, the terror began as duly elected blacks were forcibaly removed from office, sworn in sherrifs were killed, poll taxes and IQ tests were set up at voting stations, grandfather clauses were put into place to remove legally owned land from freed slaves and to deny their right to vote.


So do not believe for a minute that slavery was not the main reason for the seccesion. Every reason that the the defenders of the south bring up has a dark slavery undercurrent swirling beneath it. Those southern whites had a mortal fear of freed slaves with the power to control their own fate. All you have to do to know the truth is to look beyond their words to their actions leading up to the war( i.e the fight to allow states in as slave or free states), and after Reconstruction. For in this case actions do speak louder than words.

Also, much of the South's prosperity and wealth was built on the back of slaves.  It wasn't just a racism issue, but a money issue that threatened to cost some rich families their fortune.

I have a few points on the matter...

The South seceded from the Union, they didn't declare war.  The North were going to use force to prevent the South from seceding, thus the South taking up arms.  Saying Timothy McVeigh's actions were the same as the South seceding is a very weak argument.  McVeigh was a terrorist.  The South were defending themselves and their beliefs, whether misguided or not.  Whether they were right or wrong on the matter is another discussion.  How is the Revolutionary war any different?  Are you saying that we are British terrorists?  The South was just as justified to secede from the Union as the U.S.A. was from England.  I like Defense's argument that people don't like being told what to do from thousands of miles away.  The U.S.A. didn't like being told what to do from England thousands of miles away, and the South didn't like being told what to do by the North thousands of miles away.

As far as waving a confederate flag in this day and age, I see it the same as someone from Puerto Rico or Cuba flying their flag in America.  They do it because it is their culture (yes, a lot do it because they were born there, but just as many do it because their parents or grandparents are from there, and have instilled the culture into them).  The confederate flag shows someone is from the South, and proud of it.  Don't say that is a slap in the face to America, because I've seen many people fly both flags (American and Confederate) from their house, or both decals on their vehicle.  I, personally, wouldn't fly a confederate flag, but I do understand why people do it.  It's not a racist thing, or an unpatriotic thing, it's a cultural thing.

I rest my case.

A letter from John Wilkes Booth:

"I have ever held the South was right. The very nomination of Abraham Lincoln, four years ago, spoke plainly war upon Southern rights and institutions."  The institution of "African slavery", he had written, "is one of the greatest blessings that God has ever bestowed upon a favored nation" and Lincoln's policy was one of "total annihilation".

History review.. King George was not elected in 1775, with the Americans being pissed off about the fact that the candidate they supported didn't win.  The Americans did not have a vote in each of the houses of parliament one based on population the other giving each colony two votes. 

The fact is the South wasn't being told what to do by the North.  The South was a part of congress, and voted in the presidential election.  If it was not the south but Washington, DC that seceded than your comparison to the American Revolution would have some merit as that city has no representation in congress.

The south did not want to accept the democratic process.   


I have seen people waive the Puerto Rican flag.  I have no problem with that.  Nor do I have a problem with some one flying the Texas flag or the modern flag of Germany or Japan.  Or for that matter the flag of Afghanistan.  I do have problem with someone flying the Nazi flag,  the Japanese Rising Sun flag, or the Taliban and judge them as I do someone one who flies the confederate flag.  The first amendment protects their right to fly such a flag, but doesn't make them any less of an asshole. 

Its easy for us to look back 150 yrs later and say what a complete ass this guy is. But Slavery , although completely inhuman, was the norm for many generations in a society that had the intellect of a rock. Even past Presidents and founding Fathers had slaves.    Making something legal like weed would be very easy. So many accepting souls.  Now try to just take away Tobacco or alcohol . Just banish it and make it illegal. Its clearly bad for you. Try it and see what would happen.

That means he didn't ease into it. He didn't just ban it Up north and work his way south, let them get used to it a bit. Let the state Representatives go back and explain why its wrong. He just said , I make this illegal and thats it. Not very intelligent people your dealing with back then .

And how this is relevant today is beyond me? Lynard Synard can't raise the rebel flag at a show because some people are LOOKING to find anything to be offended about?  And Budda has the nerve to say she isn't influenced by the current Black Leaders. If she wasn't she would be able to at least discuss it openly and intelligently , without getting so defensive. Its wrong because they say it is doesn't cut it for me. Explain why or YOU are the stupid one.

As someone who grew up in a family where the "n word" was thrown around a lot, I will say that when I see the confederate flag, I do think of racism because the KKK uses it.  I realize to some people it is a symbol of Southern Pride but to so many it is a reminder of what was and is offensive.  If the majority think it's offensive, it needs to go.

As far as being "influenced" by certain leaders, we all have the ability to think for ourselves.  People follow and listen to others who are of similar opinions already.  I have found that most people are not quick to give up their own opinions.

Anti-semitism was the "norm" in Europe for a millenium.  Should I look at the Holocaust in that light and be less critical of the Nazis? 


I don't think she ever said that she isn't influenced by them.  But she doesn't need them to know that racism exists or that you are a racist. 

 Man you guys are fucking horrible at picking examples. I don't remember the black race looking to be exterminated.  Big difference between Exploiting one and Killing/ending one....... ::)


 

Fair enough.  I took it a different way. But why get do defensive? Why can't she openly and intelligently discuss anything? And saying I'm racist because I do look to discuss these things is just more proof of how ignorant you are. These leaders prey that most will think just like that so it gives them free reighn to say and do whatever  they please and things.....nothing will ever change. Good job Hoodie!  Keep up the good work of the ignorant liberal.

Your comment just go to show how much you trivialize slavery and its accompanying murders and rapes.  Kidnapping people from their homes, transporting them across the ocean in which many of the died in the middle passage than enslaving them for generations is a pretty fucking serious violations of basic human rights.  The southern view of blacks and the nazi view of Jews were not different, subhumans that can be treated as property and done with as you wish.  Plenty of blacks were murdered by their owners (it wasn't a crime).  And Jews were enslaved.  The only difference between the USA slave owners and Germany slave owners is the US was smarter when it came to economics and allowed most of its slaves to live until they were too old to work. 

 

I thought we were talking about Slavery. Please show me were anything was said about murder rape and torture?  ::) Am I denying it happened? Of course not. But it was hardly in the discussion so how can you just add it to make a point?



Damn right it is. Stop stating it like I EVER said it wasn't. FYI most of it was done by Africans themselves.  ;)




You really are an ignorant one hoodie. You will try to twist anything to make a point. The agenda of the German Nazi, the whole point was to EXTERMINATE the race. 4 Million were killed in a little over 5 yrs?

Had that been the agenda people like Budda wouldn't even be here today. Jews were Killed. That was the # 1 priority. They kept a few around for sex and experiments , maybe to do a little menial labor. But they were to die. And NONE got pregnant. EVER.

Slave owners themselves knocked them up. Sure many were killed over ignorance , but it was never the agenda. There was no Hitler screaming at them to die. Just work.Who would do it if they died?

Again , I'm not making light of it, just saying the two were completely different. I guess that makes me racist too? Because I won't admit it was the most horrible thing ever done to humans on this planet?   

Jews were being exterminated, slaves were an expensive commodity.  Slaves cost a lot of money to replace, therefore, I don't think they were killed for trivial reasons.  There is a reason why the Chinese and the Irish built the bridges and railroads: they were cheap labor and expendable.  Slaves were not used in dangerous labor because they were too expensive to replace.

Was slavery wrong? Definitely.  Was it attempted genocide? No.

I love that I'm always on Defense's mind.

Perhaps by some of the higher-ups, but your average Nazi didn't even know about the extermination game, much less the average civilian who supported the movement.

Realize this: Nazis are painted as pure evil by history (and rightfully so), but before they got into killing Jews, they were a political party since during World War 1, almost 25 years before the holocaust went down.  While antisemitism (blaming Jews and a whole slew of other non-Germans for economic strife) was part of the platform, genocide wasn't a selling point.  It was an anti-communist, anti-democracy, anti-liberalism, anti-homosexuality movement, with the belief that those woes were contributing to the economic problems in Germany.

It's not really accurate to simplify the plight of Nazis to Jewish extermination.  While it evolved to that in the last few years, and to what I'm sure many Nazis felt was the perversion of their beliefs, it began much like slavery, with the belief that a certain sect of people were not due basic human rights, and reaping the economic benefits from that belief.

In fact, I think that slavery and the holocaust is a very apt comparison in this case.

Without debating which was worse:

Can you agree both were extreme and unforgivable violations of basic human rights? 

If yes, can you agree that it wrong to pay homage to those who commit extreme and unforgivable violations of basic human rights? 

Can you agree that the confederate flag was the flag and symbol of those who took up arms against the government of the United States to defend this extreme and unforgivable violation of basic human rights? 

Can you agree it is wrong to pay tribute to those who would go to war with the United States to defend this extreme and unforgivable violation of basic human rights? 

Can you agree that flying the confederate flag is paying homage and respect to those went to war with the United States to defend an extreme and unforgivable violation of basic human rights?

And without deciding which wrong is a worse wrong, can you agree that is wrong both to march thru Skokie, Illinois with a Nazi flag and wrong to waive the confederate flag.   

I knew you were Teasing me! Sorry married though......... :'(

If you honestly beleive this then you just publicly denounced many of our country's Founding Fathers.

Hoodie, Your one of those people that just likes to put labels on things. You won't delve deeper or try to understand anything further. Just look at the flag and throw a label on it. Have you even left that little hole in the NE and traveled and met with southern people? Ever get thier views, what they have seen. What is going on right now?  I thought you were more intelligent then that.

Really?

According the records that the Nazi's kept and were used against them during the post war trials the total number of Jews killed was closer to 5 million than 6.
The travesty is that in all the sympathy the Jews have gathered for the crimes committed against them, the other and bigger genocide has been buried by the suffering the Jews went through.
The Nazi's killed over twice as many Slavs as they did Jews as they wanted to turn all of Eastern Europe into vast farmland for the Reich and they tried to remove every Slav. Whole villages and cities were liquidated years before the mass exterminations of Jews started in the camps.
I would suggest reading a great book called Masters of Death which goes over the whole genocide of over 20 million people and how it was planned and executed.

LOL!..........Your right, I was trolling a bit on that one!   :D

GOD BLESS AMERICA!!
 Our forefathers would never dream of doing the things the Nazi's did. After the Union took care of the Confederacy and joined this country as one they finally had time to get on to bigger and better things!

            THE EXTERMINATION OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN!!

Without commenting on the discussion, refer to the Kansas-Nebraska Act to learn all you need to know about how "state rights" tied in quite nicely with slavery in pointing the nation towards civil war.  The South was concerned that new states would enter the Union as free states, thus diluting the South's power in Congress.  The tension regarding free-slave states goes back to the country's formation, even, but began to get really tense in the early 1800's (The Missouri Compromise of 1820 being an example or this being addressed).

The Civil War was all about slavery, couched as state rights.

Yeah , but they live Tax free now and are Millioniares. All we did is gave the black race BET and Oprah..........ohhh, And Tyler Perry movies!!

The strangest thing is only a minority of people owned slaves. As an outsider it seems very odd to me that 90+% of the people would die for a small minorities right to own slaves.

All were immigrants from the UK area. They had problems with different counties, Ireland, Scotland all the time. It was how things were done.  The Civil war had alot of issues other then slavery. But there are those that like to rewrite History to fit their agenda and their purpose. The will seek out injustice everywhere in Lynard Skynard and in Walmart Cretins , anywhere to make themselves into Victims.

That same minority was also the power elite that controlled everything in the south. The people who willingly went off to die were fed the line that they were doing it for states right and to protect the southern way of life from those yankees.