The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

A friend sent me this link:

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/05/21/zach-thomas-hall-of-famer/?ncid=txtlnkusspor00000002

Here was my response:

He might be right, but I think Zach has a shot.

Just looking at career stats and comparing Zach to other linebackers in the Hall of fame is a little tough for a lot of reasons.  First of all many of the members were from a much different era and it's hard to compare today's LB's with those of 30 or 40 years ago.  Second of all, the main bread and butter of linebackers is tackles and the NFL didn't keep track of them consistently for many years.  NFL.COM doesn't keep track of them prior to 2001 because tackles prior to that time were kept track of by the teams and could be wildly inconsistent from team to team.  Only since 2001 were tackles accumulated by an outside source and fairly reliable.  On top of that there are really 2 types of LB's in the hall of fame, outside linebackers who tend to be pass rushers and inside linebackers who tend to be pass defenders.  Zach was an inside linebacker and pass defender not a pass rushing outside linebacker.  Many of the most recent Hall of Fame LB's have been pass rushing specialists; Andre Tippet with 100 career sacks, Derrick Thomas with 126, Lawrence Taylor with 132 and Ricky Jackson with 128.

There have been 2 recent Hall of fame inside LB's like Zach; Harry Carson and Mike Singletary.  Comparing stats Harry Carson had 8 sacks, 11 INT's and 0 TD's; Mike Singletary had 19 Sacks, 7 INT's and 0 TD's and Zach had 20.5 Sacks, 17 INT's and 4 TD's.  Zach's stats are better than both Singletary's and Carson's.  Singletary was credited with 1488 tackles, Zach has been credited with over 1700.  I couldn't find any stats for tackles for Harry Carson.

I agree that pro-bowl selections can be a popularity contest and because players are chosen from both the AFC and NFC, it can lead to to dubious players being selected because so many are chosen.  All-pro on the other hand is voted on regardless of NFC/AFC and only 8 LB's (4 inside and 4 outside) make it every year and I think's it's a pretty good measuring stick.  Harry Carson was voted to 7 All-pro teams twice as first-team and 5 times as second team.  Singletary was voted to 9 All-pro teams, 8 as first team.  Zach was voted to 7 All-pro teams, 5 as first team and twice as second team.  That's better than Carson, not as good as Singletary.

I would vote for him, but that's just me.  There are tons of players that probably should be in the NFL hall of fame that aren't, so if he doesn't make it, I won't be upset.  The Dolphins SHOULD put him in the ring of honor however which is the same as what Dallas does with their great players, put their name up around the stadium.  I think that will happen over the next couple of years along with Jason Taylor's.

Zach is one of these guys that are difficult to call. He is going to have to wait and the longer a player has to wait the less their chances become each year.

Unfortunately, I think all of the coaching changes (re-building modes) and the concussion issues at the end are going to keep him from having what it takes to get in.  He really should have had a hall of fame worthy career but I think he comes up a little short.  Damn shame!

If we had done more in the post season with him at the helm, then we would be talking a much different story.

He isn't going to be in the HOF. He wasn't even the best mlb in his era.

That's debateable.  Who do you think was?  If you say Seau, I would agree he's Hall bound, but that doesn't necessarily keep Zach out.  There's no rule saying you can't have 2 players from the same era in the Hall even if they are from the same position.

I agree completely, though there were probably a few MLBs better than Zach during his era of play, with Junior Seau and Ray Lewis popping up off the top of my head. I might even throw Urlacher up there, but the Dolphins fan in me wants to think that Zach was the better player.

Jesus why do you even support this team, I mean really just end your angst with a bullet or something already.
During his prime Thomas, Seau, and the felon from Baltimore were all three mentioned as the top three in the AFC and among the tops in the whole league.
So yes angsty Jtex on steriods, Thomas was considered one of the best LB's in his time, year after year.
Now go cheer for another team.

Stroke,
Thomas's numbers were about the same as Lewis and Seau during their prime. Seau and Lewis got a lot more coverage, especially Lewis with that defense he was part of. It could be said that Lewis's stats were better because he was surrounded by a far superior group of players than Thomas or Seau was.

Urlacher has a ways to go to compete with Zach in my opinion.  Ray Lewis has the lead on Zach in stats, but Zach is a true class act whereas Ray Lewis might lose a few votes for his off-field troubles and how he's received by the voters.

So he was the third best in AFC during his time.  Definitely not HOF worthy. Not to mention in 13 years he missed 10% of the games due to injury.

That damn Henne holds everyone down.  :P

I think he will get in, eventually.

While there is no rule that says you can't have two people from the same era at the same position...there a limit to the total number of inductees.  So it doesn't just come down to where ranks as a linebacker but was he a better linebacker than someone else was a safety, cornerback, etc.

Its possible he gets in but he is far from a sure thing.  One thing that will hurt him is played in a total of one playoff game.  While that says more about the Dolphins than it does about him. Fact is success of the team is a factor is close cases, and Zach is a close case.  

That's not fair since almost half those games were missed in 1 year and because of concussions.  The rest of the years he was extremely durable.  If he had played 10 years earlier when they patted you on the butt and told you to get back out on the field after a concussion he probably would have played in about 14 games in 2007 instead of only 5.

I have a feeling that he won't get in.

Had he played his days out in Miami and built up more of a media legacy, maybe.   ...but he just isn't "sexy" enough to get the votes.

You had better check your facts on this one. I'm not completely positive but I don't think there are any limits to the number of inductees. They just have to reach the minimum point total and they get in. Zach also played in more than one playoff game.

Not according to....

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomZa01/gamelog/#stats_playoffs

Sorry I didn't click the article,so this might have been mentioned...

I'm on the fence about Zach....Too many Lean years by the Dolphins hurt Zach, Seau and Lewis both played on teams that went to the Super bowl (won (Lewis SB MVP)and lost)

I feel he's 60/40 against him getting in...I think he's got a small window,where his chances are high....off the top of my head,I'm trying to think who has retired the past year or so,and might retire next year,that are definite first ballots...I think Farve,Walter Jones...I 'll need to think....

ignorance is bliss.

That site is incorrect.

Alright, I'll buy that.  But since you can't be voted in until you have been out of the league for at least 5 years, who has retired in the last say 3 or 4 years that deserves in?  They could select someone else who's been missing the vote for a while, but I can't really think of any glaring omissions up to this point.  Seau is the most likely candidate but I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that he doesn't play this year which would mean he wouldn't yet be eligible.  Favre won't retire until no one wants him anymore and the Vikings still want him to play.  I figure Favre should sign a contract around game 4 of the regular season of next year at the rate he's going now. LOL

Another thing about Zach:  I can't remember him being even the best player on the team.  ...ever.

In our power defensive years, both Taylor and Surtain were better players.  Zach was more known for his toughness, nose for the ball, and being a fan favorite, because he was undersized.

He was never the spotlight.  While I don't think that a guy like Urlacher was all that much better, he was the highlight of his team and would get promos and video game covers and stuff like that.  Zach was always second fiddle to another player at the same position, or even other defensive players on his own team.

...not that he doesn't deserve the HOF -- I'd love to see him get in.  I just don't think the he's as recognized league-wide as a guy like Taylor or Urlacher, and he will get overshadowed.

By my count, Zach has played in 8 post-season games.  That link above only shows games where the player has scored, registered a sack or an interception or had a return.

I don't know about that.  Taylor didn't come to the Dolphins until '97 and it wasn't really until about '2000 that he really had a breakout year.  Up to that time I thought Zach was the best defensive player on the team and even after that, I never considered Jason Taylor to be the best defensive player on Miami, I always kind of put both of them together as the best players each with different strengths.  Zach made the tackles and covered players like a blanket while Taylor rushed the passer.  As for Surtain, I didn't even consider him the best corner that Miami had at the time, I always thought Surtain and Madison were toss-ups for that distinction and it could be argued that Madison had the better overall career.

Debatable if you are the best player on a sub-500 team, typically doesn't equate to HOF. 

The dolphins were 97-95 while zach was here. I know it probably is hard for you to make statements that are both true and relevant to the discussion.

It worked for Singletary.

^^ Singletary,played on a defense that is arguably one of the best D's to ever suit up in the 85 Bears,Zach didn't...It also goes back to Daves point of the Best player on the team...

You mean the one the Dolphins beat?  The Bears had a great team in '85 and '86, other than that the Bears were pretty ordinary for Singletary's career.  I grew up watching the Bears and my Mom & Dad are huge Bears fans and even they will tell you there have been far more lean times than good times even though they've had the likes of Walter Payton and Mike Singletary.  A player or 2 doesn't a superbowl make.  Any Marino fan can tell you that.  Singletary may not have been the best player on that '85 bears either.  Richard Dent, William Perry, Dan Hampton, Otis Wilson, Wilbur Marshall, Dave Duerson, Gary Fencik.  That was one of the most stacked teams in the history of the NFL, it wasn't just Mike Singletary.

No Zach was never fortunate enough to be on a team with a great D, which might just make his accomplishments even more impressive.

<<--Family is all from Chicago, and Bear fans...(Only Dolphin fan)

Still Zach was known for the Grunt work on the team...Remember We're Dolphins Fans, it's not us that are getting him there....It's how he's Viewed by people that arent Dolphin fans....Not Playing in a lot of playoff games, never making it to the Super bowl,Not having lots of Highlight reel type plays, Playing with Jason Taylor, Patrick Surtain,Sam Madison....All hurts Zach...


Modified to add...Too Many Non Dolphins fans see Zach is a very good player,but not Hall of Fame....

Being the second best player on the 85 bears is different then being the 2nd best player on 07 dolphins. 

I'm not putting Zach in the hall either, I just think that because he didn't play for a great defense is a pretty weak reason not to put him there.

And if playing with Taylor and Surtain hurts Zach, why wasn't Singletary hurt by playing with Hampton (who also is in the hall) and Fencik and Dent who probably should be.  I don't buy that.  By that reasoning you have to throw out either Singletary or Hampton, they both can't be there...but they are.  Not to mention Payton is there too who just happened to play on the '85 bears team as well and they were coached by Ditka who is there too.

No there's no reason you can't put multiple players from the same era or even the same team in the Hall.  The greatness of one does not overshadow the greatness of the others, if anything they perhaps help each other.  I'd love to see Taylor and Thomas go in as a pair one day.  Probably never happen, but if it did, it couldn't have happend to a better pair of guys.

My family is all from Chicago as well.  I'm the only Dolphins fan and I won $20 off my brother on that Monday Night game in 1985.  One of my fondest momories of all time.

And you don't get into the hall based on 1 year either.

I just can't agree with this......Zach again is known for the Grunt work (Sideline,to sideline tackler) on defenses that weren't that great...Jason Taylor most notably known for being the play maker.

While Dent should be in there Playing with the other players hurt him IMO.

Singletary also brings 2 time defensive player of the year, to add to his pro bowls,and all pro accomplishments.....Was known as the Man on the 85 defense, (Even though Perry was biggest character) Great team, arguably the best of all time,can have multiple HOFs from the Same era Jason Taylor,I'd put 85% chance he makes it,Zach 40% chance....

Zach is a 7-time All-Pro, with 5 of those being first team.

When you have been judged to be the best ILB in the league for 5 different years, there is no way to spin that as mediocre.

If you are judging individual statistics, compared to his peers:

PLAYER TKL SK INT FF
Lewis- 1349 36.5 28 14
7 First Team All-Pro, 2 Second Team All-Pro, 11 Pro Bowls
Seau- 1524 56.5 18 11
6 First Team All-Pro, 3 Second Team All-Pro, 12 Pro Bowls
Thomas- 1106 20.5 17 16
5 First Team All-Pro, 2 Second Team All-Pro, 7 Pro Bowls
Urlacher- 816 37.5 17 8
4 First Team All-Pro, 0 Second Team All-Pro, 6 Pro Bowls

Thomas should definitely get in before Urlacher does.

I have to add something your stats forgot,Zach also has Zero Super bowl appearances.....The others all have at least one...It's perception,There are only 19 Linebackers in the Hall of Fame...Not MLB's, Linebackers...I think There's a chance, but it's an up hill battle...

Derrick Brooks retired in 2008,I'm curious to see how he fairs in the HOF voting....

Losing in the Super Bowl is a credit on your resume?  Someone should inform Dan Marino.

^ It is when Zach hadn't sniffed the playoffs the last 7 years of  his career......Gets cut from a 1-15 team,that goes to the playoffs the next year,after they cut him.....

He is in like Flynn...........On top of his outstanding play, he has outstanding character. A man among boys.

Where did you get your stats for Tackles?  It's a tricky subject because stats on tackles prior to 2001 were not compiled by the league, they were compiled by the teams themselves.  Thomas is credited with over 1700 tackles by the Dolphins and I believe he was listed at 4th all time, Seau being one of those ahead of him, but not Lewis.

Being one win away from hoisting a Lombardi is more a credit on your resume than being one over time win from tying the '76 Bucs. 

A disporoprationate number of players in the HOF have SB rings.   Even more like Marino have conf championships to their credit.  You need to be knock your socks off better than everyone else in your group to get in without having gone deep into the playoffs. 

And yet Zach has 17 INT's to his credit, Taylor only 8.  Zach returned 4 of those for TD's, Taylor only 3.  I don't have any numbers on Fumble Recoveries, I believe Taylor is ahead there.  Taylor is far ahead in sacks, but Zach is far ahead in tackles which is just the nature of the inside and outside linebacker positions.  In my opinion Zach was very much a big play guy and they both played on the same defense so if the defense wasn't that good, than you can blame both Taylor and Thomas.  I think your selling Zach short and I believe the reason is because Zach got much of the early credit for the sucess of the Dolphins D from '96 thru '99.  Taylor came on in 2000 with 14 sacks and became the face of the D after that, but Zach was it first.  He was voted AFC defensive rookie of the year in '96.  You don't get that by just being a grunt.

Jason Taylor's playoff drought was just as long, and MIA made the playoffs the year after he was gone, too.  Does this mean JT is also not qualified for the Hall?

^^ Then you can say Zach had a great 5 year run, not a great career....Comparing Zach to Jason, doesn't fly either....Jason is running up the all time sack list 127.5 sacks 43 Forced fumbles,6 of those for Td's....Taylor has the stats,and the honor of Defensive player of the year,to add to the All Pros,and the Pro bowls on his HOF resume.


You know what's so sad about this whole conversation,I'm a Dolphins fan,and watched just about every game from 2000 till this past year.You guy's can't convince me (Who's just on the fence) that he's truly hall of fame worthy,Who's going to stand up for Zach in the Hall of fame committee? Who' going to convince the people that didn't see Zach all that often,the ones that covered other teams. I know Peter King is a fan of Zachs.

Look at the list of of candidates that didn't make the HOF this year, Chris Carter,Tim Brown Top 5 in career catches,yards,Td's etc etc. Neither first ballot,HOF...Ray Lewis,Junior Seau,and Brian Urlacher  (then I even mentioned Derrick Brooks) have already been mentioned as possible HOF candidates that are Zach's contemporaries...
Then look at all these guy's that didn't make it this year,but were finalist....
http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2009/9/19/2010-preliminary-nominees---by-position/ (http://www.profootballhof.com/enshrinement/2009/9/19/2010-preliminary-nominees---by-position/)

Depending on who retires when,and who does get in off this list,ALL affect Zach getting in the HOF.

pro-football-reference.com

Again, that's funny, because I never hear anyone say that Shaun Alexander is better than LaDainian Tomlinson because Alexander made it to a Super Bowl (and lost) and Tomlinson didn't.  And I've certainly never, ever heard anyone talk about Marino's career and use the words "Super Bowl" as anything but an argument against him.

So JT had a "great 5 year run" too?  If missing the playoffs means that year doesn't count, why doesn't this affect JT?  Hell, if that's the standard, the Nnamdi Asomughas and Andre Johnsons of the world are going to have a rough time of it.

I'm sorry if Facts are scratching your aqua and orange colored glasses Spider,re read what I posted....Or ignore and read what you want,you're doing it anyways!

Love how you completely changed your post from Chris Carter,Tim Brown to L.T. and Shaun  Alexander.... ::)

Again you guy's haven't convinced me of Didly....Of why Zach is the Best, of the Best to make it into the Hall of fame....

Zach has over twice as many tackles and INTs.  Big surprise; the DE/OLB gets more sacks than the ILB, who gets more tackles and INTs.

Zach also has 1 more Pro Bowl and 2 more First-Team All-Pro selections on his resume.

I love how you didn't actually address either set of players, and how you completely discarded the "Zach only had 5 playoff years" argument when Andre Johnson and Nnamdi Asomugha were mentioned.

^^ that's because I'm not arguing your hear say....., I'm arguing facts...
And Reasons people in the HOF committee are going to over look Zach Thomas....

Modified to add..I think Zach will make it to the Finals,in voting,I think too many "other factors" will hamper him....

It is not a single factor.  One can make the HOF simply by being extremely good on a shitty team.  One can make the HOF by being one of the better players (but not the best player) on great team.  One can't make the HOF for being one of the better players on a crappy team. 

Please explain how it is a "fact" that Zach only had a "great 5 year run" because he didn't make the playoffs in the other years, yet JT (who was on all those same teams) somehow built a vastly superior resume while also not making the playoffs?  Let me guess: was it his DPOY award that he won in a year when MIA missed the playoffs, finishing last in their division at 6-10?

Some consistency, please.

Ah, I see what you did.  1106 is his solo tackles.  He had 627 assists as well which is a total of 1733.

That's fine, and agreed, but beside the point.

I have never heard anyone make the argument that simply appearing in the Super Bowl (but never winning) makes you more likely to become a Hall-of-Famer, or enhances your legacy in any way.  Making the Super Bowl (and losing) is almost exclusively used as a "Yeah, but..." to a player's career.  So any claims that Urlacher benefits from losing in the Super Bowl ring quite hollow.

I'm not the one that needs consistency.(TWICE here say)...Obviously you don't understand Defensive player of the year.....He's better than Linebackers, Defensive backs,Defensive Lineman,Everyone on Defense in that conference....the BEST Player on Defense that year in that conference...


Whatever Spider...

Now I see why you are having a hard time with this.  Go back and watch the games from '96 thru '99.  Zach was the man and Taylor was a nice DE but nothing more.  I've already said how things changed in 2000.

Here's some stats to help give you an idea.

Zach
1996 - 2 sacks, 3 INT's, 1 TD, 2 FF, 2 FR, 154 tackles. Defensive rookie of the year.  Pro-bowl alternate.
1997 - 1/2 sack, 1 INT, 2 FF, 128 tackles.
1998 - 2 sacks, 3 INT's, 2 TD's, 2 FF, 137 tackles.  First team All-pro.
1999 - 1 sacks, 1 INT, 1 FF, 133 tackles. First team All-pro.
2000 - Hurt and only played 11 games - 1.5 sacks, 1 INT, 1 FR, 99 tackles.

Taylor
1996 - Not in the NFL yet.
1997 - 5 sacks, 2 FF, 2 FR, 42 tackles
1998 - 9 sacks, 3 FF, 52 tackles
1999 - 2.5 sacks, 1 INT, 2 FR, 1 TD, 40 tackles
2000 - 14.5 sacks, 1 INT, 2 FF, 2 FR, 1 TD, 63 tackles.  First team All-pro.

So obviously if you started watching the Dolphins in '2000 you'd have a much different view of both players than someone who'd watched since '96.

Pappy,I understand what your saying, I'm concerned that What we saw (and loved) in Zach's whole career,Others wont...Especially the HOF selectors,that Followed other teams....

Modified to add...I've never lived in Florida,So until I got the NFL Sunday ticket..I was lucky to see a couple of games....When Dan Marino Retired, I didn't have Cable,or internet...I was furious, the local news,just posted a picture of Dan,and said Future HOF QB Dan Marino retired to today....Zach wasn't a Blip on the News here,and he played for the Chiefs :(

LOSING the superbowl doesn't enhance your crediblity.  But WINNING the conf championship (particularly multiple times) means you weren't one of the better players on a crappy team, but one of the players on a very good team.

Consistency?  You're the one claiming that you are only speaking of FACTS, yet you arbitrarily declare that Zach's non-playoff years simply don't count (while JT and others' do).

I happily admit that I take into account what I hear people say about players when I consider their HOF viability.  Unlike you, I'm not trying to pretend that HOF admittance is a purely empirical evaluation of straightforward FACTS; opinion is probably the single most important factor.  But if you want to wave the "I only speak of FACTS" banner, then you need to stand behind it, not duck out with unsupported (and contradictory) opinions like only-Zach's-playoff-years-count-on-his-resume.

But we didn't make the playoffs that year, so by your logic, it must not count.

Zach was the best player at his position in the league (first team All-Pro) for 3 years (02, 03, 06) in which we did not make the playoffs.  According to you, that completely invalidates those years, and only the 5 years that we did make the playoffs "count."  But only if you're Zach Thomas.

Like I said, some consistency, please.

You're splitting hairs; every single team that loses a Super Bowl is necessarily a conference champion.  Saying that Super Bowl losers don't have enhanced legacies but conference champions do is a statement completely devoid of content.

I realize it is spliting hairs.  But the fact is if the team you are on loses the superbowl, you are on a better team than one that misses the playoffs.  You seem to be missing that point.  Zach was the 2nd best defensive player on a crappy defense, that is different than being the 2nd best defensive player on a team that wins their conf.

Being voted all-pro does NOT mean you are the best player at your position (unless your position is QB) in the case of inside linebacker it means the AP views you as one of the two best players at the position.   

No, I get that point; I simply think it's completely invalid.

Prior to 2006, nobody was saying, "That Peyton Manning... he sure has his teams in the playoffs every year!"  It was, "Manning is a choker who can't win the big games."  Hell, Zach's Dolphins made the playoffs 5 years in a row, and we're still having this discussion right now, precisely because nobody gives a damn about playoff appearances, or division titles, or conference championships, unless you are using it as a way to bash a player for not sealing the deal.

You're right; I thought All-Pro was using a 4-3 defense (which would mean that there is only 1 MLB) but it looks like they used a 3-4.  So instead of being the best player in the league, he was merely top 2.  I stand corrected.

2 first team mlb and 2 2nd team, so 6 out of his 13 years he wasnt a top 4 nfl mlb.  not very good.

Actually it is very good.  Zach Thomas was a very good player and deserves to be inducted into the "hall of the very good."  But alas, there is no "hall of the very good" there is a "hall of fame", Zach isn't quite to that level. 

^ Exactly

Please list one stat that Makes Zach Thomas Stand out as the Best of the Best Linebackers to play the game.....Tackles? wasn't an official stat till 2001....

Spider you're trying to compare one player to one player.....
This is Bullshit...I never said it, Your implying and picked what I've said and tried to twist around....
....
What Has Zach Done that sets him apart form Brian Urlacher, Junior Seau, Ray Lewis.....The 3rd and 4th Best LB in an era aren't likely to make the HOF.....Other than His All PRO annd Pro bowls The All Decade team of the year 2000...Opps wait the 2000's all decade team included Ray Lewis,Brian Urlacher,Derrick Brooks,Joey Porter Zach Thomas, and Demarcus Ware.

Again, I think it depends less on what Zach has Done, but the people that are going to get in between the times he's eligible

Last Post I'm even going to Bother...So Spider Can Twist this around how however he sees fit....It's a harsh reality, that Zachs Whole Career can be summed up this way....

Zach was an over-achiever with Good stats,but never Great stats on a under achieving team,that never won anything....

It's called perception.....

Junior Seau: 20 years in the league, 6 first team All-Pro, 2 second team.  12 out of his 20 years, not top 4 at his position.  Not very good.
Ray Lewis: 14 years in the league,  7 first team All-Pro, 2 second team.  5 out of his 14 years, not top 4 at his position.  Not very good.
Brian Urlacher: 10 years in the league,  4 first team All-Pro, 0 second team.  6 out of his 10 years, not top 4 at his position.  Not very good.

Emmitt Smith: 15 years in the league,  4 first team All-Pro, 1 second team.  10 out of his 15 years, not top 4 at his position.  Not very good.

Do you guys seriously realize how hard it is to be named first-team All-Pro?

your denseness is amazing.

You: "[...] Zach hadn't sniffed the playoffs the last 7 years of  his career......"
Me: "Jason Taylor's playoff drought was just as long, and MIA made the playoffs the year after he was gone, too."
You: "Then you can say Zach had a great 5 year run, not a great career...." (direct quote)

Feel free to explain how that has been "twisted."

Or percieved to be the best. That defense, much like the Ravens defense Lewis have the lucky fortune to play with was stacked with very good players, making it a lot easier to make plays and look like a stud.
Does Lewis stand out anymore than Zach if he was on a lesser defense?

If Zach had stopped after 11, he still would have had 5 firsts and 2 seconds.  Why is this relevant?

That's funny, because during those same 11 years I just mentioned (Zach and Ray entered the league in the same year), Zach had the same 5 firsts and 2 seconds as Ray.  I guess if we had this discussion in 2007, you would have been just as skeptical of Ray Lewis, right?

The same number as Kevin Faulk?

awesome, comparing a special teamer to the starting running back. holy ignorance.

Listen, I'm not trying to compare Zach Thomas to Emmitt Smith.  But for you to say that Zach was "only" an All-Pro for 7 of his 13 years (as if that's some sort of insult) is a pathetic joke.  That's a far better ratio than most of the players in the HOF (and dramatically better than Jason Taylor, whom most of you seem to see as a shoo-in).

Jason taylor was named defensive player of the year once, and has good stats to go with his career. Ray lewis was named defensive player of the year twice, great stats, and won a super bowl.
zach thomas has good stats and nothing else.

Spider Losing in the Super Bowl is a credit on your resume?  Someone should inform Dan Marino. (Stupid Smart ass comment)
Which I replied:^ It is when Zach hadn't sniffed the playoffs the last 7 years of  his career......Gets cut from a 1-15 team,that goes to the playoffs the next year,after they cut him..... (Referring to the other people that Zach will get compared too)

Spider: "Jason Taylor's playoff drought was just as long, and MIA made the playoffs the year after he was gone, too."

Under the Post I was directing  this comment to Pappy

Which apparently you didn't read.....and quoted the First line,and keep trying to Hammer at the 5 years point,by inferring something I'm not....but ignored the rest...




Unfortunately the Defensive Players of the Year twice,for Singletary,and Lewis To Zach None...I agree it's perception,It's the Same one Urlacher will probably get because His team went to the Super bowl Despite a horrific QB.... The team was perceived to be a Great Defense that Bailed out the Shitty offense.

Zach Thomas will be a fringe Hall of Fame guy.  He may get in eventually.  He came in when Ray Lewis came in, and Lewis may be the best MLB ever.  He also played while Brian Urlacher played.  Basically, Thomas never had a stretch where people said "he is the best MLB in the league", while Jason Taylor did (at DE).  That's why Taylor is likely a shoo-in, and not Thomas.

Of course, I'm just a dumb fan, so I don't know how this will shake out.

I concur with you, Spider-Dan.  When I saw Tepop post his comment about Zach "only" being First Team All-Pro 5 out of 13 years, I was thinking, "Seriously....seriously???!"  It's almost like a putdown or something.  While I understand that he is using that as part of his *argument* as to why Zach isn't Hall of Fame caliber, I just think the wording is messed-up, to say the least.  I can see where that might not be as exemplary as, like, one other player that is his peer and plays the same position as he (Lewis), but to comment on it like it's a garbage achievement?  That's beyond me. 

Besides the fact that I'm with bsmooth on Lewis and let's take it back to Singletary, too--Zach may have had some good to even great players around him (JT; Madison and Surtain some of the time), but he was never on an absolutely stacked defense like Singletary was a lot of his career and Lewis has been pretty much his whole career.  Just comparing Zach with Ray, the only time I'd give the 'Phins defense an edge was early into Zach's career, when JJ quickly built up a defensive-based Miami team...like '96-'98.  But, by '99, the year before the Ravens won the SB, they began to have a dominant defense, and that's more or less been the same since then (I'd probably give the '02 'Phins D an edge, too, because they were just dominant at times that season, for all the *good* that it did them, but that's still one season out of nine).  Not that Ray doesn't have a lot to do with that, because he does, but I also think it has a lot to do with Phil Savage and then Ozzie Newsome to follow with putting all that defensive talent around Ray, which is as important to a MLB as it is for any other defensive player on the field.

To answer the OP's question, though, I guess I'm like Lil' B.  Of course my heart wants to see him make it in, but I think it'll be a close call, if he even does.  I'd probably put it at about 40/60 also, because knowing myself, if I say 50/50, that means I think he's gonna make it regardless.  :D

Ray Lewis and Urlacher have both benefitted from being part of the most dominant defense in the league. I do not think Lewis is the best MLB ever as has been stated he has been playing within a stacked defense for the majority of his career and his stats still are not that much better than Zach or Seau to justify that distinction of being the best ever.
Lewis is also lucky he played in a weak league leader wise or he would have missed at least a full season or more for his part in and covering up of the murder of two gay men by his "boys".

LOL, it is pretty homerific to think that zach is close to ray lewis.  Ray lewis makes his defenses great.

Stat wise which you are so fond of there is not a huge difference. Most of that difference could also be logically concluded from the fact Lewis had more opportunities due to the legendary defense's he played on. It is easy to look great when the offense cannot just focus on stopping you because the rest of the defense will eat you alive if you do.
Most of Zach's and Seau's careers they had offenses geared to send a lineman to tie them up and try and neutralize them. Lewis had dominant d lineman that took care of this problem for him.
Also Lewis's stats are not that much better to justify being called the greatest ever.
By not taking into account a players stats who got the opportunity to spend the majority of their career in a dominant offense or defense surround by all pro talent, you put players who had the misfortune of playing for bad teams at a significant disadvantage.
Also explain how I am being a homer when Zach was consistantly talked about being one of the top three lb's in the AFC with Seau and Lewis, and one of the top lb's in the league.
But your hatred of this team and its great players will not let you even remotely consider the fact that Lewis's career and fame got a huge bonus from playing in the what has been called the "greatest defense ever". But yeah you are right, that defense would have been utter shit if Zach or Seau had been the mlb instead of Lewis.

Bullshit there isn't a bunch of difference stat wise. You want to post retarded shit about how ray lewis' team had great defensive tackles that allowed lewis to make a bunch of tackles, yet according to pro-football-reference, ray lewis played in a 3-4 for 7 years while zach played in a 4-3 for almost his entire career. 

Ray Lewis 1349 solo tackles, zach 1109
ray lewis 28 interceptions , zach 17
ray lewis, 36.5 sacks, zach 20.5
zach led 16 to 14 in forced fumbles

ray lewis led 2-0 in being named the best defensive player of the year
ray lewis led 1-0 in being named super bowl mvp.

6-0 advantage to lewis in being named to the sporting news all-nfl team.
4-0 advantage to lewis in being named pro football writers all nfl team

Bsmooth, it's not that I don't think Thomas is worthy (I think he is), it's just that I read articles by HOF voters who say that one of their criteria for voting is "was he ever the best at his position?".  Zach was almost always top 3-5, for sure, but never the clear # 1.

Also, as Tepop said, Lewis has played in a 3-4 for a large part of his career.  I may be mistaken, but 3-4 ILBs are not supposed to go sideline to sideline like 4-3 MLBs do.  Again, I could be wrong there.  Either way, a 3-4 ILB has another ILB gunning for the same tackles, so I'd imagine that a 3-4 ILB's tackle stats would be lower to a comparable 4-3 MLB's.

Let's not tilt my view too much. Zach was a great player, and the team was lucky to have him.  He just isn't a hall of famer, and not in the same class as ray lewis.

On the other hand Ray Lewis isn't loved by the media the way that Zach Thomas was either.  Ray Lewis had a bit of a mean streak off the field that rubbed some of the voters the wrong way and then there is the off-field issues that Ray has had.  Zach is squeeky clean and always made himself available to the press regardless of whether the Dolphins won or lost.  Anyone who thinks that doesn't matter, just doesn't know how the voting for the Hall works.  It's not ALL just about stats.

LOLLLLLLL.  so you think there is a chance that ray lewis doesn't get in the hall of fame, while zach does? 

Nope.  But they BOTH might.

I think a lot of you are using the wrong standard when comparing Zach to other Hall of Famers.  Sure a guy like Ray Lewis is a shoe-in, but that's not the only guy to compare him to. 

Question:  Name the most recent LB to be inducted into the Hall of fame?
Answer: Derrick Thomas

Compare resumes of Derrick Thomas with Zach Thomas and then tell me that Zach doesn't belong there.  I'm not saying Zach's it's necessarily BETTER than Derrick's, but it's at least as good as.  Derrick was never a defensive MVP.  Derrick was never on a SB team, the closest he got was a Championship game they lost 30-13 and he had 3 tackles.  His teams were never considered defensive powerhouses.  He was selected 1st team all-pro 3 times and 2nd team 3 times.  Yeah, he had 126.5 career sacks, but only 1 INT for his career.

So what does Derrick Thomas have that puts him in the hall?  Well mostly that he died tragically in 2000 in a car crash.  Would he have gotten in on his stats alone?  Maybe.  Voters put him in the hall to honor him and rightly so.  My point is not that Derrick Thomas shouldn't be in the hall, but rather that it's more than stats that get you there.  It's the voters that put you there.

126 sacks, 41 forced fumbles and 3 safeties. I am not sure you can count all-pro since it appears that there is only 1 ROLB chosen, and atleast 2 MLB chosen.

Nice try.  They don't vote for ROLB.  They vote 2 inside and 2 outside.  Which side is not important.

lol, not very smart are you? If they voted for 2 centers and 2 tackles, would that be fair?

Well there's not quite as many teams that use 2 centers compared to teams that use a 3-4.  It's a small distinction and you insinuated it had something to do with the fact that he played on the right as opposed to just an outside linebacker.

Yeah and it is a lot easier to rack up stats when lineman cannot get to you because of your d lineman, when the qb is being pressured to make mistakes by the same lineman, and a secondary that is shutting down his recievers.
You seem hell bent to not acknowledge that Lewis benefitted greatly from being an excellent player on a stellar defense.
The SB stat is meaningless because Zach never got a shot to play in one, and the only reason Lewis did was that defense is considered one of "THE BEST EVER".
So it begs the question. Does Lewis's still get better stats than Zach if they played on equivilent defenses? How about if Lewis played his whole career at mlb istead of switching to right or left side as he did frequently? Lewis as of 2009 only played 6 years at mlb. Would Zach still fail to achieve similiar stats if he were to have played on that Ravens D?
Why are you so loath to admit that Lewis's image and stats are inflated some because of where he played, and that is going to help him in the long run towards getting into the HOF?

Wow, you homers just aren't very smart are you?  seriously saying that a 3-4 mlb has an advantage in compiling stats over a 4-3 mlb. You guys seriously are just ridiculous homers. Why don't you go to a non-dolphin website and ask if zach thomas and ray lewis  switched teams would zach be considered better.  You will get laughed off the board.

You know what else is funny, is that when Ray lewis won defensive player of the year in 2000, the dolphins had 5 defensive pro bowlers, and the raven had 3.  You argument is so retarded.

number of pro-bowl defensive players not including lewis or thomas.

1996 - 0 - 1
1997 - 0 - 0
1998 - 1 - 2
1999 - 1 - 2
2000 - 4 - 2
2001 - 1 - 2
2002 - 5 - 1

Miami is the first number.  How bad is your argument?????

Umm, no, Tepop, I'm pretty sure Pappy's right on this one.  Unlike the offensive line, where it does matter which *side* you choose because the left tackle is always gonna be the left tackle if the quarterback playing is right-armed and the right tackle is always going to be the right tackle in the same situation, and vice versa if it's a left-armed quarterback, the defining of an OLB as either "right" or "left" is pretty arbitrary, at least in any 3-4 I've ever seen, because it's more based on strong- or weakside.  Therefore, an OLB could be on the right side of the field if it's the weak side of the offense (less skill players to that side of the field) but might be on the left side of the field on the next play if it's the weak side on that play.  I'm not trying to be facetious here and you probably already knew this, but at the same time, it's pretty relevant to the discussion since you apparently thought all the (right/left, weak/strong) OLB's are vying for one spot/side, when that's not the case.  Basically, the two best OLB's will get on there, regardless of side, unless it's based on weak- or strongside assignment.....but I don't think that it is.

(sorry, had to break my post up because I guess it was too long initially as it was all together, but I wanted to make sure everything got on here)
I think it's too simple to just look at pure Pro Bowl selections for a given season, especially since they were so close in every season besides that 2002 season (which I will come back to in a second, don't worry) because while having multiple Pro Bowl players on a particular side of the ball definitely suggests that that side of the ball is probably adequate or even good, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are inherently amazing as a unit.  For instance, one defense can have 2-3 good-to-great players (which, as we know, the Dolphins' defenses of these years always had at least that, with other players right at the cusp of that such as Trace Armstrong and Tim Bowens [and, yes, I know that they got their Pro Bowl selections, too, just they weren't perennnials.]), but depending on how the other 8-9 players play obviously has a huge influence, too.  If those guys are just adequate or maybe even mediocre or, perish forbid, awful (a la Gibril Wilson, and I'm sure we had a few of those back then, too, just none that are coming to my mind right now [was Jamar Flecther that bad?]), that's going to have a huge impact on the defense's performance, no matter how good you are at your MLB/ILB position.  I don't think you can even sit here and deny that.

(sorry I'm so obtuse, mods/guys, just wanted to break it up even further to make sure it posted, Word is being funny on my computer right now so I can't trust it for copy-and-paste functionality if it didn't post correctly. I hope that's okay.)

So, going back to that 2000 Baltimore Ravens squad in particular, and this is just off the top of my head (seriously), I can recall "The Goose" Tony Siragusa, Sam Adams (back when he was still good, i.e., became way too fat like with the Pats those season(s)), Michael McCrary, Rob Burnett, Jamie Sharper, Peter Boulware (basically I've just named their entire front seven, excluding Lewis, of course), Rod Woodson (one of the best EVER at his position, even if he was a safety at this point in time), and Chris McAllister.  I also remember Duane Starks, to be honest, but I acknowledge that he wasn't that great and was probably only deemed "good" because of the talent around him at the time.  I can't recall their other safety, but he wasn't a stud, either...I think it was Brian Walker or somebody like that.

While I won't deny that I have a good memory, particularly for sports, that's still pretty ridiculous for me to remember, nearly ten years later, nearly their entire damn starting defense, if other players weren't memorable besides Mr. Lewis himself (and I'll give you Rod Woodson).  They were, as I've said earlier, stacked.  Granted, he really only played with that particular defense for the 2000 and 2001 seasons, but still ,the man's had great talent surrounding him defensively pretty much his whole career.  It may not have always been to that extent, but it's been there, whether all of those guys were getting PB selections or not.  Whereas with Miami, we obviously had a few other players who were getting selections once in their career or even multiple seasons, but we were never really stacked front to back like that with the exception of.....


Yeah, not necessarily *relevant* to this particular discussion since it was only one season, but I did hit on this in my other previous post on this thread.  We were stacked defensively in 2002, there's no way around that, and we let it all go to waste with one Jay Fiedler (Jay Fiedler?!?!) injury and *brilliant* coaching decesions by The Wannstauche and crew.  Yeah, I had to get one more poke in at Dave while I could.  ;)

actually the player played in the early 90s when most teams were using a 4-3. so picking 2 olb and 2 mlb isn't fair as most teams were using 2 olb and 1 mlb. 

deny what.  that the poster was wrong when he said that it is easier for a 3-4 mlb to accumulate stats and that zach thomas played on terrible defenses and ray lewis' defenses were so great that he could accumulate more stats easier. 

Even though this doesn't really relate to your original comments concerning voting strictly for a ROLB vs. a LOLB, which I addressed in the first of my three consecutive posts, what you're saying here is probably true, from what I recall from that era (I started watching the NFL around '92/'93). For DT's career (1989-1999?), most defenses in the league were 4-3, though there definitely were some 3-4 defenses throughout that time, with Pittsburgh classically always running a 3-4.  So, in that regard, if most of the defenses were a 4-3 during that time, there would have been more OLB's than MLB's/ILB's (if we're talking 3-4 for the latter) and thus an All-Pro selection would be harder to obtain as an OLB than a MLB/ILB just because there were more of them (OLB's) playing/starting in the league.   Still, that's the way that the AP (or whoever chooses those teams) decided to list their defenses, as 3-4. 

If you ask me, though, it's not the OLB's that have the gripe in that situation so much as the DT's, since only one is getting selected in a 3-4 lineup, and there were tons of them out there since most of the defenses were 4-3 at the time.  .....But, that's another argument altogether. 


I'll let bsmooth defend himself on this one, but I'll say this, in regards to team (actually, defensive) talent: whether Ray was playing as a 4-3 MLB, with Siragusa and Sam Adams keeping interior O-lineman off of him, or playing as one of two ILB's in a 3-4, with Kelly Gregg and Trevor Pryce and Haloti Ngata (that's a bad man there!) and crew keeping interior o-lineman tied up and away from him and his cohort, the guy's always had a lot of help in front of him to allow him to be the playmaker and tackling machine that he has been.  I do understand that Ray has played most of his career as a 3-4 ILB compared to a 4-3 MLB, and that in the 3-4, there's another ILB there that the defense is hoping will be relatively free himself to make plays. 
As for Zach, he did play most of his career as the lone MLB in the 4-3, there until the end of his playing days with Saban (4-3/3-4 hybrid) and I think Cameron's last season, we ran a true 3-4 with Crowder and Zach as the two ILB's.  But, even as a 4-3 MLB most of his career, I don't think Zach had as much help around him (directly in front of him) as Ray has most of his career, though I will say that early in Zach's career, Tim Bowens and Daryl Gardener were both pretty big to his success, which Zach himself admits to in that 20 questions piece currently on the board. 

So, again, I'll let bsmooth defend himself in that regard, but I think regardless of whether we're comparing a (primarily) 4-3 MLB to a (primarily) 3-4 ILB, besides the scheme, you've also got to take into account pure talent and efficiency of the D-lineman, too, because whether it's a 4-3 with the two DT's or a 3-4 with all three D-lineman actually, their job is to preoccupy the interior lineman so that the MLB/ILB won't have to fight and shed as many blocks as he otherwise would and the OLB's are more able to easily rush the passer when they're not playing the run or dropping back into coverage.  While I would never say that it is easier for a 3-4 ILB to accumulate stats compared to any 4-3 MLB, it's certainly possible that a 3-4 ILB can, depending on the talent around him.

All this slicing of the ravens defense from 2000 and the subtle difference between linebacker positions is just smoke and mirrors to distract from the bottom line about ZACH THOMAS.

When has there ever been a general feeling league wide (not just among Dolphin fans) that Thomas was the best player in the league at his position (not among the best, but the best)?  What records has Thomas broken?  What championships has Thomas been apart of?  What history has Thomas made?  Twenty years from now what about Thomas would make a fan of 31 teams want to pause and read up the history of Thomas while walking thru a museum in Canton Ohio?

It is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Very Good. 

You can make this same argument about a lot of members that are currently in the Hall of Fame.  I've already mentioned Derrick Thomas.  What about Harry Carson?  Since when were they considered the best player in the league at their position league wide?  Not among the best, but the best.  Even amongst the hof voters you don't need everyone to vote for you, you only need to get more votes than the other guys on the ballot.

I still think Zach has a shot, albeit a small shot.

^^^ Pappy you picked one question I asked and only one question I asked.  Getting in the Hall is not a simple formula where we pick a single criteria and measure it. 

Joe Namath was hardly the best QB of this era.  However, he scores big on some of the other questions. 

Derrick Thomas is the only player in NFL history to record 7 sacks in single game.   He also was DROY. 

Harry Carson was the the team captain for a team that won the superbowl.  A team that was known for having a great defense. 

So don't tell me that there are other players that don't meet one of the questions I asked.  Tell me how Zack meets one of the questions I asked. 



 

I believe that Zach Thomas has more tackles than anyone in the Hall of Fame and is 4th ALL-TIME.  He was also DROY in '96.  That's at least as good as what you answered for Derrick Thomas and better than Harry Carson in my opinion.  The Giants may have had a great defense in '87 but that was more because of a guy named Lawrence Taylor than anything that Harry Carson did.  Carson had 1 sack and 0 INT's in '87 the year they won the SB.  His time had passed by the time they won a SB.

I completely agree with you that getting in the hall is not a simple formula where you pick a single criteria and measure it, so why are you trying to make it so?  Getting in the hall is simply a matter of getting the voters to give you more votes than the other candidates.  That's it.  To say that Zach has no shot is short sided.  To say that he has a good shot is also short sided.  I give him about a 50-50 shot, we'll just have to wait and see.

Wow that is quite impressive since tackles weren't recorded officially until after 2001.

Weren't recorded officially by the NFL until after 2001.  Prior to that the stat was kept by the teams themselves.

Simeon Rice was the DROY '96 not Zack.

According to the DC of the Giants Carson was the best linebacker he ever coached...thus better than LT.  I will take his opinion over yours.

Stop trying to only take a portion of the accomplishments of those already in the hall and claim Zach is equal. 

You can get in solely on individual merit (Dan Marino).  You can get in as being a leader on a historic team w/o being the absolute best at your position (Joe Namath).  But you can't get in on being pretty good on a team that doesn't nothing.  It the Jets don't win SB3, Namath isn't in the hall.  Carson doesn't get in w/o a ring. 

Zach neither has the individual achievement of Marino nor the being a part of something great that Carson had. 

Sorry, he was the AFC DROY in '96 according to Wikipedia which of course could be inaccurate.

I didn't know that you made up the procedure as to who gets into the HOF.  I guess you're right, I guess he's not gettin' in.  What's up with this whole selection criteria thing that gets talked about every year?

That's it, you take your ball and you go home.

of course he is!!!  Is he worthy ? thats up too debate. Lots of better players not in. Lots of lesser men are in.  What a great few years that d. had. Can we put Darrell Gardner in? FOR a couple years he was the best dolphin lineman ever!!

Damn, you beat me to it. LOL

The point is that your selection criteria are invalid, because there are already existing HOF members that do not meet them.  I mean, seriously... Derrick Thomas had 7 sacks in one game, so therefore he deserves to be in?  When did this become the Hall of Random Single-Game Records?  Drew Bledsoe has the record for the most completions in a game... should we start working on his bust?

If I take your selection criteria at face value, there are plenty of players who actually did make it into the HOF that would be evaluated as a "no."  Let's look at them again:

What records has [blank] broken?
What championships has [blank] been apart of?
What history has [blank] made?
Twenty years from now, what about [blank] would make a fan of 31 teams want to pause and read up the history of [blank] while walking through a museum in Canton, Ohio?

Now fill in the blank with:

John Randle
Randall McDaniel
Andre Tippett
James Lofton

And those are just players from the last ten years of inductees.  You mean to tell me that those 4 guys deserve to be in but Zach Thomas clearly does not?  Please do explain.

Alright, let's leave that sort of non-logic to the political threads... You're inferring in that sentence that the 7 sack game is the only reason he's in, rather than the career sack number (126) that puts him only 6 behind the greatest linebacker to ever play the game, Lawrence Taylor. The 9 Pro Bowls and 2 first team all-pro awards probably helped. Seeing as how he died of a fluke blood clot while still active as a player, it'd be pretty easy to argue that he would have ended up top-5 all-time in sacks had he lived a few more years.

He had a Hall of Fame "career," which is why he ended up in the Hall of Fame.

I agree with your second statement, I too thought he deserved into the Hall based on what he had done during his career, however I have a problem with trying to project stats for a player.  Let's not forget that Zach's career was cut short by injuries as well, he lost the last 2 years because of concussions.  Had it not been for those he'd still be playing and racking up tackles as well and could very well have been the leading tackler of all time, but that's not really the issue.  Several players in the Hall had their careers ended early for one reason or another and that should not preclude them from the Hall.  The issue should simply be did he have a hall of fame type career while he was playing?  There's no criteria to look at that for that.  It's not how many Super Bowls he played in.  It's not how good are his stats.  It's not what kind of player he was, it's just simply a judgement call by the voters.

tackles weren't official until after 2001.  and zach thomas has like 250 less solo tackles than ray lewis.

Once again the same slicing bullshit.  He didn't get in on one thing.  But along with having a better overall career than Zack Thomas, he is in the record books.   


John Randle -- 137.5 career sacks is the most by a defensive tackle in NFL history.  He was named All Tackle Machine of 1999 by Tackle The Magazine.   Made the all decade team.

Randall McDaniel – Set NFL record by starting in 12 consecutive Pro Bowls (1989-2000).

Andre Tippett NFL’s 1980s all-decade team, highest two-season sack total by a linebacker in NFL history, In January, 2008, he was voted by a panel of former NFL players and coaches to Pro Football Weekly's All-Time 3-4 defensive team.

James Lofton - first NFL player to record 14,000 yards receiving,

I am done discussing players already inducted.  I am not going thru the entire list of players enshrined and explain to you how they made history.   And the above is not a total list of each players accomplishments. But every single one of them has done something to earn a place in history.   

Thomas didn’t make an all decade team, he hasn’t broken any records, he wasn’t a part of any championships.  He hasn’t been named to any all decade, or all time lists.  So what has Zach Thomas done to earn a place in history?  The list of non indcuted playes who have made as many pro-powls as him is pretty dam long. 

Post some reasons why Thomas should be in.  And listing another player is not a reason for his induction. 

What fucking history has Thomas made?

I'm probably not inferring his total sack count as a reason because, you know, that wasn't what he mentioned.  I also find his relationship to LT's sack total to be mightily irrelevant; Chris Doleman has almost 20 more sacks than LT, so what does that mean for him?

Unlike Zach's 7 Pro Bowls and 5 first-team All-Pros, I suppose.  But hey, who wouldn't take 2 Pro Bowls over 3 first-team All-Pros?

Are we now citing what players could have done as evidence for their Hall of Fame inductions?  Because if so, my argument quickly changes to "The Man With The Most Tackles In The History Of The NFL."

I fixed your post, but even that isn't true.  Do you homers just not understand anything. Zach was great at getting assisted tackles.  Ray lewis has 250 more solo tackles than he does. He wouldn't even be close to being the leader since ray lewis is so much better than he is.


Also, Zach was named best MLB in his conference 1 time. That is a HOFer right there.

Except for, you know, the 2000 NFL All-Decade Team (http://www.nfl.com/news/story?confirm=true&id=09000d5d8161b0e9&template=with-video-with-comments).

But I'm sure you will quickly spin that into a meaningless accomplishment (immediately after touting it for Randle and Tippett).

That's because Pro Bowls are pretty damned insignificant (at the potential-HOF level), particularly when you have large groups of players sitting out (with "injuries") and the 4th and 5th backup choices at a position (in that conference!) playing.  David freaking Garrard was a Pro Bowler this year.

All-Pro is a different story.  There are no substitute All-Pro selections, and it doesn't matter if your conference is stacked or weak at that position; it's simply the best of the best in the league.  Zach has more All-Pro selections (particularly first-team) than the majority of HOF candidates; hell, he has more first-team selections than a lot of the players already in the Hall.

That, to me, is the key; not stats like tackles or sacks (which vary from era to era) but simply: how was this player compared to his peers?  And empirically speaking, Zach was selected as the best in the league (first-team All-Pro) more than all but a tiny handful of players ever to put on the pads.

That's what the Hall of Fame is about: not the Willie McGinests of the world, who have Belichick and Brady fall into their lap and ride the coattails for a few rings, but the players who prove that they stand out among their peers even when not on a high-profile championship team.

Sources, please.

I didn't give you he entire fucking bio.  I was answering what history he made. Each of the players you want to compare Zach to has done "something more".  

Yes, Zach has been to the pro-bowl multiple times and for that reason he deserves to be in the Hall of the Very Good.  

What nobody has yet to make the case for is what has he done to be in the Hall of Fame.  

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/ThomZa01.htm

pro-football weekly.  It was the year that ray lewis only played 5 or six games, and zach was named to the all-pro team that year.  and one of zachs second team all pros was the other year ray lewis only played 5 or 6 games. 

Zach:
 
Ray Lewis

That's funny, because to me, it looks like he was voted best MLB in the league 5 times (the five times he was 1st-Team All-NFL).  Unless you're talking about the Pro Football Weekly award that no one cares about?  Why not cite the ESPYs while were at it?

Zach aint no Ray-Ray thats for sure. But he had a h.o.f. career even though he stuck around too long they all do if thier body lets them. i'm scared of Ray Lewis and i've never even met him kinda like Mike Tyson. What he brings cant be summed up in stats alone. Zach was one of the best of his time even though he might not have been top 3 on that d. Yes he thrived in a system where as lewis would have dominated anywhere. This started off as a pro Thomas post.

Best forward flip into the endzone to score a TD on a game winning INT.  Lights out man. LOL

Agreed.  That was so awesome if that's the game I think you're talking about (Dolphins-Titans 2001?)   :D