The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I'm not suggesting that we bench Henne.  I do, however, see better performance from our team when Pennington plays.  I don't know exactly what it is, and since they're not both playing with/against the first teams, it's an apples to oranges comparison.

But, I don't see Henne improving.  I know that he's the plan for the future, but at what point do you go with the guy who helps you win now?

It is an apples to orange comparison. 

At the earliest you bench him week 10.  And then you draft a QB in 2011.  This organization is not going to win a playoff game with Pennington ever.  You give Henne as many chances as you can and if he doesn't develop, you try again with someone else. 

play the best qb which is pennington.  it isn't like henne is going to get worse by not playing.  lots of qb have sat for several years before starting and it didn't hurt them.

First of all, hi to everyone.  I'm new to posting here, but have been lurking around for a while getting a feel for the board.  And now is the time I must comment.

Secondly, I have to give my 2 cents worth on the QB situation.

When teams game plan for a Chad Pennington lead Dolphin team, the Dolphins lose.  He does not have the arm to lead a NFL offense anymore.  He can't throw deep accurately.  He can't throw simple out routs with nearly enough zip.  Everything he throws has an arc on it that would make Jay Fiedler proud.  All he has is moxie...which is only enough to come in off the bench and steal a game when the opponent isn't ready for him.  His tremendous physical limitations make him very easy to game plan for, and frankly, I was hoping he would retire in the off season and be a QB coach in Miami.  Besides, wasn't his lack of ability what caused the Dolphins to start using the Wildcat offense in the first place?

I saw very little from Henne tonight and was thoroughly disgusted with not only his play, but the play of the entire first string on both sides of the ball.  That being said, there's nothing wrong with developing Henne as the starter.  I don't think this is a Superbowl team under the best case scenario, so I don't mind him learning on the field...there's not much to lose.  I thought Henne played pretty well in the first 2 preseason games, but hasn't done much since Jacksonville.  IMHO we already know what Pennington can do.  Let's see what the kid with the rocket arm can do.  His only competition should be from Thigpen with Pennington holding the clipboard unless injury dictates otherwise. 

Henne's got to play some more regular season action where the coaches actually coach and game plan for an opponent.  Thankfully, that first opponent is Buffalo, who's not a good team, so that should help everybody on the team out.  The early schedule gets pretty tough after that, and I'm very curious to see what he and the team can do.  The early bye week should help out, too.

^ Welcome to the boards.

As for your comments, I agree on pretty much everything.

Ultimately, I don't think you can play Pennington because he's not the answer, in terms of the goal of winning championships.  In the short term, however, I think he can win you games, even if you're game-planning for him.  He doesn't, however, have the physical skills to get it done against playoff caliber teams, and never will.

With Henne, the upside is considerably higher than with Pennington.  But I don't think he's as good a player right now.

And I think there's something to the balance of planning for the future, but also continuing a culture of winning.  Let's not forget that Pennington led us to a pretty great season just 2 years ago.

Everyone overlooks Thiggy. I would have Henne, Thiggy, and then Pennington on the depth chart when the season starts. Pennington should be a last resort, he is too fragile.

backup qb is always the most popular guy with fans on the team...

as painful as it is or may be, you have to develop a qb. if henne is going to be the guy that can truly be a game changer on this offense, it's going to take some time. you stick with him as starter good or bad the entire year (unless he gets hurt), then re-assess in the offseason.

it might be a rough start for this team out of the gate, but the second half of the season you should see significant progress.

If we want to be a contender in the future - 1, 2, 4, 10 years from now - it has to be with someone OTHER than Pennington.  Right now, the best option is Henne. 

If Henne doesn't work out this year, don't be surprised to see the Fins chase a 2nd round QB next draft.

But, I don't think you can bench Henne.  He needs to take his lumps and learn from them.  If he sucks, then fine, but it does us no good to just win games for no reason, playing spoiler, etc, by starting Pennington.  Just like mecadonzilla said, Pennington's balls sail and float and are generally pick-off-able.  We had a guy named Fiedler who had similar skills and you all couldn't WAIT to run him out of town. 

Pennington is smart, serviceable, and accurate, but he's not going to bring this team to the Lombardi Trophy.

Why are we even having this conversation in preseason? We all know the games mean nothing. No one gets concerned about the Colts in preseason. Lets get into real games where players actually play a full game and then discuss if we have issues. I think they shouldn't even televise the preseason because it sucks. It isn't a real NFL product although they like to act like it is.

Amen... Someone needs to let the Chicken Littles of the world know that the sky can't even begin to fall until the regular season starts

I was at the game last night and from my seats Pennington looked terrible.  His passes have absolutely no zip.  Everyone of them looks like a touch pass regardless if it is to a runningback 3 feet away or 20 yards down the field, it just hangs in the air.  Luckily he's so good at placing the ball where he wants it doesn't get picked, but he's not the answer at QB if you expect to have a balanced offense and the way the running game looks, I think you better have a balanced offense.

If it were up to me, I'd have Thigpen as the backup to Henne.  His passes are so much crisper.  We really haven't seen a whole lot of Pennington this pre-season, I honestly think a little bit of that "Pennington moves the ball better" is wishful thinking.  Thinking that he's going to look like he did 2 years ago.  I have seen no indication of that in preseason.  Here were his plays from last night and remember that Dallas played almost no starters the whole game.  They were playing 3rd string guys by the time Pennington was in there.

Result of play  Dist    Target   Comments
sacked           -5      
incomplete      short   none     Thrown away
incomplete      short   Hartline  Dropped
complete        9        Bess   
complete        2        Bess   
complete        1        Bess   
complete        14       Moore   
complete        5        Hartline   
Scramble        10      
complete        13       Hartline   
incomplete      deep   Martin  
incomplete      deep   Cobbs    
complete        2        Hartline  TD

The 2 incomplete deep balls are the ones that really shocked me.  The one to Martin floated and gave the Safety plenty of time to come over to make the play.  Martin really had no chance to catch it.  On the one to Cobbs the ball was well underthrown and Cobbs had to try to come back to the ball, luckily the defensive back never turned around and it hit him in the back and was called for the pass interference, but it was a terrible throw.

I know it doesn't look too good for Henne in preseason, but I still think he needs more time.  Not just more time in this offense, but more time with Brandon Marshall.  Those 2 guys do not look to be on the same page a lot of the time.  Remember that Marshall was hurt and hasn't had a ton of reps with Henne.  I know he has tremendous physical ability, but I'm not sure that he's figured out the Dolphins offense completely yet.  He looks out of rhythm.  Even when Henne hits him right in stride a lot of times it doesn't end up a completion.  I'm hoping that he's still just pressing will calm down once the season get's going and he gets a few plays under his belt.

I have to agree with everything B Fein said above.  I said last year it takes some time to develope a QB (every year there is a team that sucks who drafts a #1 QB and they throw him in there with an O-Line that sucks, no RB's and no WR's, and they wonder why they wash out).  That said, it's time for Henne to step up, so you have to play him and keep playing him to see what he will turn into, by the end of the year we will know.  Hopefully he comes out in Buffalo and has a great game to build his confidence for the season ahead (I'll be at the game right near the Dolphins sideline).  Furthermore, hopefully the Dolphins are trying to work on things in preseason games that they feel they need to improve on, and that we are not seeing some of the plays they feel they have mastered.

Excuse me, but this is going to sound a bit like a whacked out rant.....

I feel,as soon as you start talking about failure,and contingency plans,and jerking QB's in and out...You're breaking them....It seems like young QB's that get shots to start,then get in these QB controversies,never seem to get "it" back.I think once they're in the league for 4-6 years,they tend to be able to handle it better...Those young guy's (in a lot of cases) end up as very questionable back ups....The Dolphins  have two of those guy's that ***I***perceive as "very breakable" Thigpen,and Henne...

I think I'll avoid watching the replay of this game.... :D

  you could say those qbs who get the chance to start and then lose the job werent that good to begin with and it didnt matter whether they stayed as the starting qb or got pulled.  they would have peaked as bad backups either way.

Any time of year, including preseason this conversation is worth having.  It is not a calling for heads to roll but just an idea if circumstances arise.

If Henne isn't helping the team by week 6 it will be time to look for someone else for a little spark.  By no means does this mean Henne would be finished.  We have a very difficult early schedule and any of our QBs could struggle.  But you don't want to show the team that you aren't trying to win, so you have to give someone else a shot for at least a game or two to show accountability IMO.

In my mind this is a discussion based on O-line performance.  If our O-line isn't giving consistant protection I think we should look at Thigpen.  He handles pressure very well and seems reasonably durable.  In all honesty, he could be as good as any of the QBs but suffers from small school syndrome.

If we have a decent run game and fair or better protection, Pennington is a master of the dink and dunk and we should probably look to him to keep our offense on the field, ball protect and pull out some low scoring games.  I hate watching games like that, but it is probably the best way to go to put a few wins on the board.

I have said this before, but I really look at Thigpen as a solid future possibility.  This is not just me liking the backup.  I prefer for Henne to get his shot and he deserves it.  I am not very concerned with preseason performance.  But if he proves not to be ready via regular season play, I would like to see a fiesty winner type like Thigpen play.

Lastly, if this offense struggles this year I am probably going to look at Henning as the one to fault.  He has plenty of talent, but he is too conservative too often.  Today's NFL is not designed for conservative play to get you to the big one especially with such a young defense.

guys - let's be realistic when discussing a timeline here.  Look at our schedule...

@ Buffalo - this should be a win, a good warmup game
@ Minnesota - This team took the Super Bowl champs to overtime in the NFC Title game.  In their house.
Jets - the unanimous media decision for "most improved" and some people's pick to win the AFCE
New England - Always a tough opponent and perennial title contender
@ Green Bay - Probably the best team in the NFC in their house.
Pittsburgh - good team, will have Big Ben back by then
@ Cincinnati - decent team, not the best, but not an easy game on the road
@ Baltimore - good luck against these guys, best defense in the league
Tennessee - League-leading rusher and improved play at the end of the year last year leads to a better season.

I could see a realistic opportunity for the Dolphins to start the first 9 games 1-8.  The second half of the schedule eases up a bit, but the first half is possibly one of the hardest in football.

So, let's be easy when establishing these time lines.

I think they could also drop the first game @ Buffalo! On the road, new corps of RBs and an improved defense / coaching staff could see the Bills come out pumped up for their first regular season game. Don't sleep on the Bills - they've looked FAR superior to the dolphins in their preseason games.

Let's be sure that we understand what we're talking about, here:

Benching Henne, at this point, means you need to replace him.  Period.  I cannot recall a single instance of a young QB being handed the starter's role, being benched for his poor play in favor of a veteran backup, and then turning out to have a productive career later on.

At this point, we either need to ride Henne or trade for/draft a replacement.  Talk of switching to Pennington seems pointless.

Here are the preseason stats for Henne as far as I can tell. 

Henne 32-58 346 yards 2 TD's, 1 int, 1 fumble, 1 Spike, 2 penalties and 3 sacks in 63 plays.

While that's not stellar that's certainly no cause to call for his benching in my opinion.  Below are the breakdowns by target.  In my opinion the least productive for the number of attempts has been Marshall.  I believe that's because they've not had enough time together yet and I think that Marshall is pressing.  I expect that combination to get better as the season goes on.

Bess 5-6 61 yards.  The 1 incomplete was a drop by Bess
Brown 3-3 31 yards.
Fasano 4-8 87 yards, 2 TD's.
Hartline 5-10 44 yards. 1 Drop.
Polite 2-3 13 yards.
Williams 7-9 32 yards.
Marshall 6-15 78 yards. 2 Drops.  He also had one that was clearly a completion and fumble but was ruled incomplete on replay.  Have no clue why since he got 2 feet down.

I'm not looking at stats.  I'm just looking about how I feel after each game, win or lose, about his performance.

I think that Henne is not doing a very good job right now of:
- touch passes
- checking through his options
- accuracy on the deep ball

In general, he doesn't seem to be getting it done, in terms of managing the offense.  I'm concerned.  And while I understand development time and that it's just preseason, at what point do these become excuses and not reasons.  He is a 3rd year player, but I don't see much improvement so far.

Again, I'm not calling for heads to roll.  I'm not unrealistic.  I just think that at some point, you have to decide whether or not he "has it" or doesn't.  ...and I think that time is fast approaching.

See Young, Vince

The jury is still out on him.   If he performs well this season, you can add him to that list.  Same for Alex Smith. 

Pennington 17-28 145 2 TDs, 0 INT, 1 sack, 3 scrambles, 3 penalties in 35 plays.

Pennington's furthest completion is 20 yards and that was on a jump ball to Marshall.  His longest pass to a receiver other than the jump ball is 14 yards to Moore.  And remember that all of this has been against 2nd and 3rd string.  Everyone needs to relax about wanting Pennington to start.

Bess 3-3 12 yards
Brown 1-1 10 yards, TD
Cobbs 0-2
Fasano 1-2 8 yards
Hartline 3-4 20 yards, TD
Haynos 1-1 5 yards
Hilliard 1-1 3 yards
Lumbala 1-1 14 yards
Marshall 2-4 27 yards
Martin 0-1
Moore 1-3 14 yards
Wallace 1-2 10 yards
Williams 2-2 23 yards

But I think that can be misleading.  No, it's not just about stats I agree, but sometimes how you feel about a performance doesn't really match up with how they did when you go back and really pick it apart and study it.  I've done that with all of the games.  A lot of times it seems like Henne didn't move the ball, but when you go back and review the drive, you'll see there was a dropped pass, a penalty, a sack, a run that lost 5 yards, etc that killed the drive.  Every one of the sacks that Henne has taken were not his fault, he's getting hit well before he should have had to throw the ball and in fact there have been at least 3 times where he's had to throw the ball away to avoid being sacked.  Those are not his fault.  There have also been at least 2 passes where there was obvious miscommunication with the receiver, both times with Marshall.  It's hard to tell who made the mistake, but since Henne has been with the team for 2 years and Marshall has been with the team for a couple months, I'm giving the benefit of the doubt to Henne.

No question that Henne needs to play better, but he also needs a LOT more help from the guys around him or this offense isn't going anywhere no matter who the QB is.

I'm in the "if we pull Henne, we've given up on him" camp.

And, as such, the time to pull Henne is when you're absolutely convinced he doesn't have a future as the starting quarterback of the Miami Dolphins.

At that point, I'd put in Thigpen and see how urgent it is to spend a top pick on a quarterback.

(I'd want Pennington as the #2 until such a time, however)

Thigpen 28-50 373 2 TD's, 1 INT, 1 Fumble, 7 Sacks, 4 Scrambles, 1 Penalty, 2 Kneel downs on 65 plays

Brown 1-1 2 yards
Camarillo 0-1
Cobbs 2-2 20 yards
Haynos 0-1
Hilliard 4-5 28 yards
Lumbala 1-1 8 yards
Moore 6-10 89 yards, TD
Nalbone 2-2 42 yards
Pruitt 3-4 31 yards
Sperry 0-1
Turner 4-10 80 yards
Wallace 5-12 73 yards, TD

White 4-4 27 yards, 1 sack, 1 scramble and 2 kneel downs.

Moore 1-1 -1 yards
Turner 1-1 10 yards
Wallace 2-2 18 yards

Any time the dolphins are on defense or playing the special teams unit. 

Didn't it take Drew Brees a while to develop?

I cant beleave what im hearing from some of these die hard dolphin fans henne is the best qb weve had since dan you got to give him a chance compared to some of those bums we had before

at this point one of the things i certainly hope is just smoke and mirrors is the g damn wildcat. look i think it was pretty innovative at the time, and served its purpose, but for freaking sake why the freak keep do they keep running it when they now have a qb to develop?

they drafted henne, they picked him as the future of this franchise, freaking coach him up and develop him. taking him out on certain plays just screams you have no confidence in him making a big play. i don't care if you have to throw the ball to marshall 100 times a game...

Because it's still a pretty effective run play.  If you can average 4+ yards a carry you're gonna keep it around.  I noticed that at the beginning of the year they weren't taking Henne out, just splitting him out wide which means you can always put him in motion and toss him the ball on a pass play like they did with Pennington when they first started using the wildcat.

splitting him out wide is effectively taking him out as the qb for that play.

your basically saying, kid we don't have a play we are confident in you running that would be better than the wildcat right now. it's cool when you don't have a qb you are trying to develop, and you are just trying to mix it up in order to be a little more competitive. taking snaps away from henne, especially in critical situations when he should have the ball in his hands to develop his decision making will not help him improve as a qb.

I don't think MIA splits the QB out wide for the Wildcat any more; they take the QB out and put an extra blocker on the field.  It has been emphasized several times that when MIA runs the Wildcat, you have 1-on-1 football, so defenders have to get off of their blocks to stop the play.

And I don't understand how QBs supposedly "get out of their rhythm" by being taken off of the field for a play.  Does it get the QB out of their rhythm if they score a quick touchdown, or if you kick a field goal instead of going for it?  Who cares?

MIA has unique talent for running the Wildcat.  Given how many other teams have tried it (and utterly failed), I doubt Henne takes the Wildcat package to be an insult to him more than it is a compliment to both Ronnie/Ricky and our line.

Last season they took the QB off the field for Wildcat.  During the preseason, they haven't been.  Taking the QB off the field telegraphs the upcoming play to the defense while they're in the huddle.

I could see running Wildcat as giving the coaches a chance to talk to their QB for 1 play in the middle of a series, to iron out a kink, or perhaps tell him something they're seeing from above...

How is that any different than when he hands off to a runningback?  Basically all you are doing is cutting out the middleman and snapping directly to the runningback and there are options in the wildcat for getting the ball to the QB.  They did it the first year with Pennington and it resulted in a TD.

Here are some differences.

1. The QB can do a fake pump down field to keep the safeties honest before handing off, or at the very least the defense doesn't know that it is a run play when they line up.  Worked in 2007 cause defenses didn't know what Mia was up to at first.  Now you see the QB lined up at wr and you know what MIA is going to do.  That means you don’t need to worry much about covering the CB and can stack the box.

2. QB safety.  You can jam a wr at the line.  A QB that gets hit after handing off the ball is a flag and a first down.  If I was a DC opposing the Dolphins I would put my most physical cb on Henne with instruction to make him pay for the play.   Maybe even stick a linebacker on him instead. Not do anything illegal, but jam him and jam him hard.  On Monday when he wakes up sore he should remember every wildcat formation as much as he remembers every sack.  And no, I don’t care if being this physical or allows Henne to get open on a slow linebacker, the Dolphins ain’t throwing him the ball.  This exposes your franchise QB to more risk of injury.  Didn’t matter with Pennington he was intended as a one year rental.  Henne is suppose to be the QB of the future, you don’t want him on IR.

Here's one more difference, Hoodie:

With the quarterback split out wide and the tailback taking the snap, the offense has 1 more power guy for the running game, meaning the defense has to block 1 more guy.

Now, does that (offensive) advantage outweigh the disadvantages of signalling that it's going to be a run play? That's the real question.

If there's no threat of throwing the ball, I don't think it'll continue to work. For some reason, it still managed to most of the time last year, but if you allow the linebackers and strong safety to push up, it's a problem.

I hope we see some interesting stuff out of the Wild Cat this year, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Point taken, however how is that different for the QB which is what I was getting at?  A handoff to a RB doesn't include the QB any more than having him split out wide does even if he does a fake pump.

Won't happen.  I've seen the play run a hundred times and not once have I seen the QB even touched.  I don't know if it's an unwritten rule or what, but the QB isn't touched.  The DB responsible waits till he's sure the QB is not part of the play and then breaks off his coverage to defend the run, he's not going to take himself out of the play wasting time hitting the QB for no other reason than to harrass him.  Beside you're talking like the QB can't get injured on a running play. LOL

You made the assumption that there's no way they throw him the ball, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a "wrinkle" there that has Henne streaking down the sidelines.

The RB taking the direct snap is not really the reason it's effective, it's the unbalanced line and the RB in motion that make the play.  With a RB like Ricky, you give him a head of steam and he can outrun you to the corner, but if you overplay it to the outside and Ronnie keeps it the 2 tackles can make a nice running lane to run it up the middle.  Even if you know it's coming it's still difficult to defend effectively.

Besides, most teams stacked 8 men in the box last year even with the QB under center.  They really can't commit any more than that to the run even with the Wildcat because Ronnie is decent throwing the football. Now my guess is that this year teams won't be stacking 8 men in the box as often and the wildcat won't be used as much.

when i think of developing a qb, i think getting the qb as many reps as possible in the live game action. letting him learn by getting all those reps in all different types of live game situations. in other words, developing the qb in in-game decision making.

im not debating whether or not the wildcat is an effective play. it does however limit the amount of reps the qb gets by its very nature.

^^^ I just want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, so you think that handing the ball off to the running back develops the QB more than splitting out wide does?  Is that your position?

huh?

a qb runs all the offensive plays running or passing. it's his responsibility to line up under center (or out of shotgun), look at/interpret the defensive formation and run the called play. the more reps he gets doing that, the better hopefully he can become at being a qb.

the wildcat play, effective or not, takes reps away from the qb performing that role by its very nature.

The plays taken away are designed RUNNING plays. Those are reps that do absolutely nothing for a quarterback's development.

Except the Dolphins didn't use the unbalanced line for the vast majority of Wild Cat plays last year...

And the running back in motion is easily done with the quarterback taking the snap, so that's not a *difference*.

What the Wild Cat does is improve the match-up by 1 player and (at least initially) present the defense a look they are not used to, hopefully causing them to hesitate momentarily.

I'd agree with you if Henne had the option of audibling out of the run to a pass if he sees something that he doesn't like, but I doubt very seriously that Henne is given this option.

His job in the wildcat is the same as it is on a run, make sure the RB gets the ball and get the hell out of the way.

When is this done other than in the Wildcat?

2 years ago yes, now every team in the NFL is prepared for the wildcat and know exactly how they are supposed to defend it.  It's not just Miami that is running it anymore, most teams have it in their arsenal even if they don't pull it out but once a year.

not sure what you are getting at here... wr is the same as qb on running plays?

the qb runs all the plays running or passing for the offense. henne isn't very experienced doing this, so he should take as many reps as possible within the live game to get this experience. on running plays an experienced qb will get everyone lined up, read/interpret the defensive formation, recognize certain players that may adjust blocking or technique, snap the ball with a certain cadence to get timing of the play correct, etc... it isn't simply a "mindless" snap and handoff role.

i remember back when manning was up and coming, some specials that they did on him around the work he put into the running plays in order to ensure a certain "sameness" with respect to play action pass plays. the amount of precision involved in a "simple" handoff running play is significant.

Absolutely not.  WR's are expected to block on running plays, a QB does nothing but hand the ball off, rarely are they asked to block players and if so more often than not it's more like simply get in their way then block them.

Every player on the offense runs the play, not just the QB.  The QB CALLS the play.  The QB still calls the play in the huddle on a wildcat.  Granted he doesn't call the snap on the play, see my comments below.

And yet none of that "develops" a QB in my humble opinion.  I'm pretty sure that Pat White, Chad Pennington or Tyler Thigpen can do all those things as well as Henne can.  Developing a QB is done on pass plays where he has to go through his read of the defense and progressions.  That's simply NOT done on a run play regardless of whether he lines up wide or takes the snap.

This is the key point for why we should keep the wildcat.  All that about stopping a QB's momentum is garbage.  The wildcat is simply (as far as Henne is concerned), a running play that may require him to block someone.

The Dolphins actually did this quite often last season. Usually, it was Ricky coming in motion left-to-right and getting the hand-off from Henne. I don't recall it as being particularly effective. The most memorable thing about it was probably that the announcers mistook it for a Wild Cat play every once in a while.

And possibly the best reason for running it is so that defenses have to prepare for it which gives them less time to prepare for a traditional offense.

Right now? Afraid Thigpen maybe our best q.b?

This statement would only be accurate if Henne was a threat to run the ball (as a designed offensive play) upon receiving the snap, as there is a significant difference between being forced to defend against the jet sweep (which demands that you commit men to defending the sidelines) and defending a between-the-tackles run (which demands precisely the opposite).

The major advantage of the direct snap to Ronnie is that it significantly reduces the time that the defense has to recognize and react to the play.  Either Ricky gets the ball and is headed to the edge with a full head of steam, or Ronnie gets the ball and is immediately up the gut.  Substituting Henne in the jet sweep takes the inside run out of the picture, which reduces the options to "contain Ricky" or "defend the pass".  Even if Henne were to hand off to Ronnie for an inside run, that slight delay makes a world of difference at the NFL level.