The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I choose whoever was chatting during the 4th and 1 play. Who was that?

DEFENSE  ----  or lack thereof

This game shouldn't have been this close.  Miami's D is good on first and second downs and then they don't even play on 3rd down.   don't get me started on the 2 4th downs that they got blown out on.!!!.   Miami has to step up their D big time if they want to win against the harder teams that we will be playing soon.    Henne has to stop staring down the receivers before he throws to them.     

The refs

Our defense played startlingly poor considering the time of possession.  I don't know if it's scheme or if it's players just yet, but since the Minnesota game, I'm not happy with what I've seen.

I don't want to criticize the starting QB in a road victory, but sooner or later, he's going to have to learn to be more accurate.  He missed an awful lot of receivers today...by a lot...and one was an interception.  He's nowhere near as inaccurate as Frerotte, for example, but he must improve.

GB was 3/13 on third down.  I think that's a pretty good job by the D.

I agree with Dave.  Whichever of those guys were "chatting it up" as Rogers walked up to the LOS for the *sneak* (how appropriate a term in this instance, huh?) for the tying score have gotta be right there for the Shame.  I noticed Yeremiah and I believe Chris Clemons were two of them, and maybe that was it.  While I realize they weren't merely "chatting" but discussing what would need to be done, how does this keep freaking happening?  I know someone else mentioned it in another thread, probably the live game blog one, about how this seems to almost routinely happen to Miami on 4th down within the 1.  Remember @Houston 2008 (I believe) when Schaub so easily ran the draw through an empty middle for yet another victory by those jokers over us?  There's at least one other game where this happened recently, though it wasn't at the end of the game for the win but I'm pretty sure that team also beat us.  Now this play where it wasn't a QB draw straight up the middle but might as well have been the way the middle was so completely open.  With our recent history, I was sitting there screaming that that was what would happen, and sure enough it did. 

Co-shame goes to which referee placed that spot on the 4th down Ronnie run and whichever ref to follow still decided after the review that the spot was correct.  God, that was such garbage.....I was thinking, "Man, you wanna talk about some home-cookin'".   :D

Fulcher...SEE YOU IN CINCY!!!

Anyway, I'd like to invite Ed Hockey League over for some vittles myself. lol

Bell was the one who was chatting and was walking away as Rodgers stepped under center at 4th and goal.

That was pretty bad, but I'm upset at the defense for a few other 3rd and 4th down plays on that same drive.  After stopping GB twice,  GB had a 3rd and 10, and the defense called a timeout. Now when you call a timeout before a down like that, its usually so you can set up your defense, because you didn't feel you were lined up correctly. After the timeout, Rodgers scrambles quite a bit, the defense allows him to scramble, and he completes a 24 yd pass to Jordy Nelson to allow the drive to continue. Grrrr. GB continues on the drive, gets another first down. But then after a short run, a penalty against Bulaga, an incomplete pass and a short pass,  GB ends up with a 4th and 7 on the Miami 29 yard line. The defense then gives up a 20 yd pass play to Jennings.

I'm going to take a different approach and put this on a Miami fan (I hope all her friends aw her and give her a hard time for this). Did anyone else notice the Dolphin fan on the front row when Rodgers did his leap (she was about two people away) after tying the game? She was cheering and smiling. I don't care if Lombardi rises from the grave and leaps up next to me after a Packers score to tie the game, I'm not going to cheer him.

I saw that, but I thought it was a little boy? It looked to me like a kid, and sitting next to the kid was the Dad (also wearing a Fin hat).

I thought it was Husband and Wife, the Husband wearing the jersey,and the wife in the coat, hugged the Packer player.... :P

Also, I'm going to have to give an honorable mention. Who made the decision to down the ball with :04 left on the clock and a tied football game. I know the chances of hitting a Hail Mary are slim, but so are the odds of having it returned against you. Maybe we get lucky with a pass interference or something (also slim odds on a play like that). Why not try to win the game in regulation rather than settle for overtime? I hated that call and an honorable mention goes out from me to either Sparano or Henning, whoever made that call.

As much as it pains me, Yeremiah Bell gets the shame.  You don't EVER take your attention off the QB once the offense is lined up and set.  Jeez, man, fundamentals.

Bell plays so hard and he's probably my favorite Dolphin player right now but this was a bonehead move.

I have to give that to coaching. We just came out of a timeout and our DBs were confused. That seems to be coaching as they couldn't figure out what to do. I don't know that YB was ever supposed to cover the QB.

That was just a poor play call on the goal line anyway. Even if he was paying attention, there were only about 3 or 4 people at the line of scrimmage on defense. There's no way they're going to stop 6 guys blocking for a QB.

^^^ agreed. I think the confusion was because Clemons had to cover the TE, but Bell was left to fill a gigantic hole on the d-line and was asking for help, maybe?

Either way, the spread formation got them scared and I can't figure out why that huge hole was on the d-line.  I think they probably should have manned-up on 3 WR's, leave Clemons as help on the strong side, and everyone else should be in the box.

Didn't we give up a couple of TDs at the goal line the same way last year? They spread us out and the QB walks in.

Vontae Davis gets my Shame of the Game.  Burned by Greg Jennings on an 86 yard drive and got beaten on several other pass plays. 

Honorable mention to the officiating crew for that horrible spot on Ronnie's 4th and 1 run. 

Yes. Every time I see us on the goal line with only 3 or 4 guys, I think to myself, we lose this situation every single time, why do we do that?

And if we have 5 or 6 guys bunched up in the middle and Rogers throws a pass to the outside everyone would be complaining about that.  Give the Packers a little credit, it was a well designed and excecuted play in a crucial situation.

I guess we could have just let them score on first down too and saved a couple minutes for our offense to get the game winning FG in regulation.  Man we really screwed the pooch that whole series! /sarcasm off

Dan Henning for his questionable playcalling yet again. I do not understand why they don't try one or two plays down the field. The pitch to Ronnie on 3rd and 13 was a terrible call. On the 4th and 1 I give the ball to Ricky or Polite in that situation. Someone who can bull their way through the line and leave no question we got the first. (Ronnie did nothing wrong on this play and this is not a knock on him. In my opinion Ricky and Lou are stronger runners in that situation.) Downing the ball with 4 seconds left and not taking a shot is atrocious as well.

Just my 2 cents.

^^ They had just given the ball to Polite on the previous play and he was stuffed.  Ronnie actually had the first down in my humble opinion, but got a bad spot.  I don't have a problem giving him the ball there.

The kneel down at the end of regulation was a bit curious.  I'd like to think that was a Sparano decision and not Hennings.  I'd love to hear his thoughts on that, but I didn't really question the call.  Shows a little bit of confidence in your team that you would rather take it to overtime and try to win it there rather than risk throwing a stupid pick or something else bad happening in a desperation throw.

The 3rd and 13 to Ronnie was a bit "safe", but we did end up with a FG out of it.  Guess Henning/Sparano didn't want to take a chance of getting sacked or a turnover and not getting points.

One question for those that know.  The guy I was watching the game with and I both noticed the same thing, that it looked like Sparano was calling plays when we were on offense.  Is he just relaying the plays into the QB or is he giving input to Henning or what?

I give the Packers plenty of credit but that wasn't the play call.  Rodgers audibled when he saw the chance.  They came out lined up in shotgun...

Oh, yeah...I can't wait, Frimp!  (or is it alright for me to call you Bill on here?  'Course, if you do likewise, my *secret identity* will be ruined, and people will realize I'm really not the semi-famous former strong safety for the Bengals from back in the day  :D ) It should be a blast!  Hopefully our boys will pull it out this time!

And how do you know that wasn't the play called?  Line up in shotgun, spread the field, walk up to the line like you are audibling and sneak it while the defense is spread out and thinking your audibling?  I think that WAS the play called.

Most of the people here know my name is Bill. I tailgated with Dave, Brian, and Househead at the Jets game, and met quite a few others in 2005. Maybe I should ask them to change my name to Phinvader Bill here. lol

As for the Cincy game, after the Tropical Storm comes through, leaving a battered Bengals offensive line in its 'Wake' and we blow the kittens out, hopefully there will be no SOTG thread. lol Has that EVER happened before?

Pappy, if you re-watch the play, you can tell.  He saw the confusion and the huge hole and said "take what I can get"   I believe it was an audible on the field as a reaction to the defensive confusion.

I don't think it's happened before and I don't think it will happen.  I will see to that.   

I finally had a chance to see Sparano's response to this.

“To be honest with you, there were more bad things that could happen than good things in that situation. I just didn’t feel like at that point a Hail Mary, a strip fumble, any of those kind of things — you don’t want to put yourself in that. I believed in this team. I felt we’d be able to win this football game in that circumstance, so that’s what we did.”

Bullshit reasoning. I don't recall ever seeing (and challenge anyone else to find an example) a hail mary pass being returned 100 yards the other way.

I remember the Bills handing the Jets a win 2 years ago when they tried to throw a pass while leading in the last minute or so of a game, had the ball stripped from the QB and the Jets ran it in for a TD to win the game.

There's lots of bad things that can happen, not just a 100 yard return.

To be fair, the end of half miracle play has already occurred once this season:  Redskins vs. Cowboys in week 1.

That being said, I don't like the decision to sit on it on the last play of the half.  Henne's got a cannon, so why not let him use it.  Plus, it's not like he was under any pressure on Sunday.

Yeah ... we had our offense in there and not the special teams Tony!!  :D

Pappy, bad things don't happen in overtime either? I'll take my chance on a hail mary any day rather than rely on a coin flip.

That Redskins Dallas play was only like a 30 yard return. That can happen in any point of a game.

It worked out, but it was still not the call I agree with.

Fine, but that doesn't mean the reasoning is BS just because you don't agree with it. 

I think the important think to remember is that Sparano liked his chances in overtime better than the chances of a Hail Mary finding the endzone.  I think that says something about the team and him as a coach and to be honest, I like that attitude.

I didn't call it bullshit because I disagreed. I called it bullshit because he specifically said more bad things could happen than good. I disagree with that statement because an INT in that situation is going to play out as a neutral basically, unless they do the fluke return all the way which I already said I can't recall ever happening. You have more chance of something neutral happening, a medium chance of something good, and a very limited chance of something bad.

You honestly trying to tell me that you believe the chances of scoring a TD there are better than the chances that something bad happens?

Here are a few possible bad things that can happen.  It's not an all inclusive list, just a few.

1)  Int returned for a TD.
2)  QB is stripped and fumble returned for a TD.
3)  Ball is snapped over the QB's head and returned for a TD.
4)  QB is sacked and injured and removed from the game.
5)  Another offensive player is hurt and removed from the game.

You really think the odds of scoring are better than the odds of one of those things or something else bad that I didn't think of happening?   I don't and neither does Sparano.  #5 alone is a GOOD possibility on ANY play, not just a Hail Mary, much better than odds of scoring anyway.

And yes I realize that any of that can happen in OT as well, but the odds of a successfull play in OT are a LOT better than getting a 53 yard TD play when they know that it's the only possible play you can run.

1) As discussed, I've never seen it happen on a hail mary and no one has said they have either
2) Very unlikely as teams drop in coverage on hail mary plays. No one blitzes or hardly even rushes more than 3
3) I'll give you the snap over the head, but returning for a TD I still say unlikely. Fall on the ball and again it is what I called a neutral play. Remember teams don't pressure much in this situation.
4) Again highly unlikely as teams don't pressure the QB. Chances of that happening are probably greater in OT anyway.
5) That can happen on any play as you pointed out. You could lose them in OT where you are going to be playing more than one snap. The chances again are probably better of suffering an injury in OT. You shouldn't coach with that philosophy.

Look we can agree to disagree on this because you are not going to change my mind. How many times do you see a team lose a game while throwing a hail mary with a tied score? I've seen more team win than have the play cost them the game, so yes the odds are in your favor that you win or stay tied. Either way, you gave winning a shot.

How many times do you see a team win a game while throwing a hail mary with a tied score?  Show me an example of a game winning over 50 yard TD on the last play of the game that was tied.  Not where the team was behind and you have to try the play, but one where the game was tied and going to overtime and they decided to throw it up for grabs and they scored.  NFL game please, PoP Warner doesn't count.

I've seen countless times where a team that was losing attempts a Hail Mary and it's either intercepted or falls incomplete.  The difference is that the team is already winning, there's no reason for them to attempt to run it back for a TD or even attempt to intercept it, they are already winning the game, the game is over.  In the situation that we are concerned with the game is not over if it's intercepted, it's still tied, running it back for a TD is a real possibility.

Show me the percentage of games that go into OT anyway (a small percentage so my pool to choose from is rather limited). Give it a break. I said you aren't going to change my mind.

They showed the replay of the Dolphins/Packers game last night on the NFL network and they showed Rogers talking about that 4th down play after the game.  The play was indeed designed to work exactly like it was run.  It was not a case of Rogers seeing the middle of the field open and changing the play, that was the play called, spread out the field and sneak it, right down to the fact that he's supposed to walk up to the line and make it look like he's audibling and then sneak it.  If you watch the play the center even touches his leg to indicate to Rogers which side of the center he's supposed to run.  It was a beautifully designed play, almost on par with the "fake spike" that Marino ran.  Give the Packers play caller credit.

I also watched the replay of the Ronnie Brown 4th down attempt and I'm more convinced than ever that it was a 1st down.  At no time did he even look mildly down until he was well past the 26 yard line.  When you watch it on replay his foream does not appear to be down, he simply puts his hand down to maintain his balance and his elbow bends a bit, but then he pushes himself back up and continues to move.  His knees never touch the ground and his elbow never touches the ground.  The refs simply blew the spot and they declined to overrule the play although I'm still not sure why.  The only thing I could come up with is that you can't really see the ball when Ronnie's knee does touch the ground, you only see his back and therefore you have no definitive spot of the ball from that angle, but it's clear that it was passed the 26 yard line unless the ball is between Ronnies knees which clearly it wasn't.  Maybe they decided since you can't definatively spot the ball, you have to go with the spot on the field.

My point exactly.  Most teams don't even attempt a hail mary with the game tied, it's a very low success rate.  Your chances of winning the coin toss and winning in OT are better.  We agree to disagree.

I would say yes.  I think the chances of something good (TD catch, defensive penalty of any kind) happening far outweigh the chances of something bad (turnover resulting in TD).

INT, fumbles, etc -- they only matter if it's returned for a score.  Even things like offensive penalties won't matter, because it runs out the clock.

Turnover combined with penalty means you lose the game on a FG.

I don't know if its been said or not, but by kneeling on it, you are also putting a lot of faith into luck: winning the coin toss. Its possible the other team wins the toss, and you don't even see the ball. So with that being the case, you may as well throw up a hail mary and try to win without relying on luck.

You're also relying on the ref correctly hearing your call on the coin toss- I still remember the Steelers game where Jerome Bettis called heads and the ref said "Steelers called tails, its heads, Steelers lose the toss". (I think the Steelers still ended up winning the game)

Philly, the coin toss was changed after that incident.  The ref verifies your call before he even tosses the coin.

And let's not pretend that these decisions take place in a vacuum.  Sparano faced no media criticism for kneeling on the ball, as the pundits practically always encourage extreme conservatism in playcalling.  Yet had he went for the low-percentage victory and somehow fallen victim to the even-lower-percentage catastrophe, the media would have been all over him (see: Dallas in week 1).  If MIA loses the coin toss and GB wins, the story is the broken overtime system; if MIA fumbles the snap on a hail mary and GB recovers and kicks a FG, the story is the idiot playcalling (especially after the debacle with Dallas just a few weeks ago!).

You can talk about wins and losses all you want, but PR matters.  PR is why the special teams coach had to be immediately fired, even if the only replacement was his assistant.

You don't know about the unwritten rule.  The unwritten rule is that there's no such thing as defensive pass interference on a hail mary.   It's every man for himself on that play.

I take it you didn't see the end of the Broncos - Jets game...

That wasn't a Hail Mary play, just a long pass play with 1 on 1 coverage.  Completely different animal.

It was a Hail Mary pass, but for some reason the moronic Broncos decided not to cover deep. The safeties (both of whom should've been deep) were caught short.

It was 4th down and 9 with like a minute and a half left in the game.  All they needed was a first down, they didn't need to throw deep so that's why the Broncos were covering short and the Jets caught them off guard by throwing deep which is why the play worked.  That's a completely different situation to what the Dolphins were in and what is typically considered a Hail Mary play where your only option is to go deep.  It was not a Hail Mary pass, it was just a long pass in the 4th quarter of a game to a receiver who was single covered.