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OK ... I give!! I've had enough of being politically correct and really don't understand it anyway. Why isn't it Merry Christmas? Why isn't school getting out for Christmas vacation? Why are commercials and retailers forced to say "Happy freaking Holidays" when their store is littered with Christmas wreaths, trees, and baby Jesus music playing out of their speakers? Cities are holding Christmas tree lightings and decorating with Christmas items. TV commercials are pushing Christmas but saying Happy Holidays. Everywhere you look and hear it's Christmas!!!!! I've seen a million pictures or cards that say Happy Holidays but all of them have a Christmas scene on them. This is absolutely insane!!!!

I know several devout Jewish people, Hindus, and even Muslims and they do not have an issue with “Christmas” though they do not celebrate it. I’m not sure why the politically correct police outweigh them.

God Bless you if you are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu or even atheist but to pretend that the country is celebrating anything other than Christmas is just plain stupid!!

Everyone has the right to call it whatever they want.  I still say Merry Christmas, but I won't be offended if you tell me Happy Holidays or anything else that you feel appropriate.  If you're offended by that, you'll have to just get over it.

I personally prefer the phrase "Happy holidays."

It is the phrase I use with anyone for whom I don't know for a fact their heritage.  If I know someone is Christian I will wish them a "Merry Xmas", or if Jewish, "Happy Hanukkah." 

If someone assumes to know my heritage or knows my heritage and wishes me a "Merry Xmas" anyway, I respond by wishing them a "Happy Hanukkah."  (The only exception to this is the two days of Dec 24th & Dec 25th in which case I assume they are just telling me to have nice day) 

Nobody is forcing business to say Happy Holidays.  They choose to do it because it is more inclusive and means more money for them.

Because schools are publicly run, they are legally not allowed to support the establishment of any particular religion, so they are trending towards Happy Holidays because it is inclusive to all of their students.

It's not political correctness.  It's just that saying Happy Holidays encompasses everyone, while Merry Christmas can be exclusive.  Just because the latter half of December is about recognizing Jesus to you doesn't mean that it's the reason that other people are in the spirit.  That's all it is.  It's not like it's some conspiracy.

Agreed CF, been annoyed by that for quite a bit too. Really too bad that things changed. Give it time, soon it'll be a non denominational holiday season:

(http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/import/season_01/sp_0110_11_m4.jpg?width=200)

Happy Festivus!

The only thing I am celebrating is having a couple weeks off of work (love that mandatory shutdown) and that I'll get to see my parents.

I almost forgot, I'll be celebrating college football as well.

I'm not sure there is a name for my holiday.

The "War on Christmas" continues!

I'd like to know what the following have to do with the birth of Jesus of Nazareth:

- decorated trees
- Santa Claus
- reindeer
- elves
- candy canes
- snowmen

There are effectively two different, unrelated types of Christmas in the United States.  There's the nativity scene, baby Jesus, religious Christmas, and the Santa Claus, decorated tree, Yuletide secular Christmas.  And I daresay the latter is celebrated by more people than the former.

Not to mention eating candy out of your socks.  Yuck! 

Most people combine the 2 into 1 entity.  My family has both a nativity scene and plenty of snowmen, a tree, presents etc.  Many people celebrate a Christmas mass or sing carols that deal directly with the birth of Christ.  Most everyone I know combines the 2 different events into 1 celebration and calls it Christmas time.  There's rarely a seperation of the 2.  In fact Santa Claus itself is simply a retelling of the story of St. Nicholas who is the patron saint of children and used to give gifts to children.  Christ being a child and all, there's a very strong tie in.

That's taken from St. Nicholas Day, which is actually December 6, in which children put out their shoes with gifts for the saint and his horse and are returned sweets and a sackful of gifts.

Which has what to do with a pregnancy allegedly occurring without fornication?

^ Nothing.  St Nicholas Day and Christmas are two different days.  Americans have combined them.  Jesus was born in the spring anyway.

In our family, though my Mom is very religious and we were always churchgoers, Christmas wasn't really that important a holiday from a religious perspective, but we definitely did the gifts/fun/reindeer aspect of it all.  Although, my family never really did the religion thing outside of church and some small rituals like a standard blessing at dinner.  It's not like we talked about scripture or dogma or anything like that.

That's one way to look at it.

Another way would be that damn near everyone (even many Jews, Muslims, and atheists in America) celebrates the Yuletide part of Christmas, and then some smaller subset (I would say a minority) of that enormous group also celebrates the nativity part of Christmas.  Then you have an extremely small portion of the population that does not celebrate Yuletide at all (no Santa, no Christmas tree, etc.) and sticks strictly to Jesus.

That's what I meant when I said that more people celebrate the Santa Christmas than the Jesus Christmas, and I think it's almost indisputable, even in America.

FYI: The term Yuletide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule) effectively encompasses most things about Christmas that do not involve Jesus.  It originates from the pagan Germanic end-of-year festival, which the Roman Catholic Church absorbed and changed to "Christmas" (even though according to the bible, Jesus was born nowhere near December).

Santa Claus (Sinterklaas) predates Saint Nicholas.  And I think pretty much everyone was a child at some point, so I'm not sure how strong of a tie-in that is.

I, being a Christian, find it funny how we (Christians) celebrate the birth of our savior on a day no where near when he was born, yet are more...eh....church-going?...on days associated with his death (Easter).  I understand why, but find it funny.

The way I see it Xmas is for kids more than anything, birthdays are too IMHO. The older I get the more silly these things look to me. As far as the religion part, I'll leave that alone because this thread will go off topic quickly and I will get beat to death with keyboards, ha ha.

Trust me. I get the commercialization of Christmas over the last 50 years. I get that almost 80% of the U.S. claims to be Christain and only about 5% claim to be anything else yet less than half maybe practice any sort of religion. I get Christmas and Easter are the  time for the CEOs of the church as the "Christmas and Easter  Only" people come out in droves. I get that the Church has agreed that Jesus was born around May but why December was selected can be debated. I get that The colors of Christmas were selected for Jesus red-blood, green the evergreen of Jews "Now on the first day you shall take for yourselves the foliage of beautiful trees, palm branches and boughs of leafy trees and willows of the brook, and you shall rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days. " (Leviticus 23:40) Silver and gold for His rightousness. I get that holly represents the crown of thorns and blood. I get that most people are going through the motions.

What I don't get is why people "deny" this season is about Christmas. If it isn't then why have Christmas songs playing and singing about the Lord? If it isn't then why have all of the scenes of Christmas, whatever that may be, but act like its not? Many times whenever someone says happy holidays I say Merry Christmas back to them and its like Hallelauh or something as I many times get this yes, that's what I wanted to say experince. It's like Christians or anyone celebrating this holiday that has always been a part of this country,  has been relegated to a secret society or something. That's what I don't get.

Oh, I don't dispute that it's partially about Jesus.  But the Jesus part of Christmas has been overwhelmed by the Santa part of Christmas.  And that's my point.

You say that there are Christmas songs playing that are about the Lord, but again, I'd argue that the majority of famous Christmas songs today have nothing to do with Jesus at all:

- Jingle Bells
- Deck The Halls
- Santa Claus Is Coming To Town
- Winter Wonderland
- Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer
- Here Comes Santa Claus
- Frosty The Snowman
etc.

There are a couple of songs like Silent Night and The Little Drummer Boy that are pretty popular Jesus Christmas songs, but they are few and far between.  Santa Christmas songs dominate the chart.

Personally, I find it befitting that a holiday (Yule) which the Christian Church appropriated and changed to serve their religion has now spun back away from religious intertwinement.

As far as the religious part of holidays goes, I always thought, growing up, that Easter was a bigger deal than Christmas.  The balance of dogma vs. "fun" was more evenly weighted at Easter.  Christmas was all about the yule.

The chart or the radio waves?  And as far as the radio waves go, a lot depends on the station you're listening too.  Sure a lot of the stations that play pop, rock or country most of the year play a lot of the songs you mentioned at Christmas time, but if you go to a classical station, you'll find far more songs that are infused with more spiritual themes.  The other songs are there, you just have to be a bit more choosy in which stations to listen to and that only makes sense.  Those pop, rock and country stations have a different audience to play to than the classical station does.

^ I don't ever seek out Christmas songs, but they're around.  I hear most of the stuff while I'm shopping in stores or on television during shows or commercials.  The vast, vast, vast majority are the generic holiday ones.

Like Dave said, retail stores, commercials, TV shows, movies, you name it.  "Santa Christmas" songs outnumber "Jesus Christmas" songs by a mile.

Okay, I'll give you that stores and commercials are playing "Santa Claus" songs, they have a vested interest and it has nothing to do with the birth of Christ.

This is slightly off topic, but there is a really interesting show on the History Channel called The Real Story of Christmas.  They explore the origins of current Christmas traditions.  They did a similar one for Halloween.  It re-airs tonight.

Likewise, the vast majority of entities who are playing/singing Jesus Christmas songs are those who have a "vested interest" in promoting his birth.  But even entities with no solid vested interest either way (office elevators, hotel lobbies, etc.) go with Santa Christmas songs over Jesus Christmas songs overwhelmingly.

If you say so, haven't really been in a lot of office elevators or hotel lobbies lately.

Guess I'm just gonna have to make a special effort to have some good ol' fashioned Christmas music playing for my kids and grandkids this Christmas.  Remind them what Christmas is all about.  I really hadn't noticed that everyone else had forgotten.

This may vary from region to region of the country.  I would suspect Topeka, Kansas more office lobbies would have Silent night than in Manhattan.   

I doubt it.

I'd agree with Hoodie, and that has to do with population, etc. My company is based in Dalton, GA, and if you go anywhere near that town, you find the religious songs playing more than you would in NYC (where I just was last week), due to the multi-cultural, multi- ethnic population of NY.

I also get what CF is saying- and I think people here are misunderstanding him. It has nothing to do with the "Santa Christmas" vs. the "Jesus Christmas". I think (and I could be off here), he is wondering why people no longer even say the words "Merry Christmas". I think they feel they would offend people who don't celebrate Christmas (Jewish people, Muslim people, Atheists, whatever). I no longer celebrate any religious aspect of Christmas, but I still wish people Merry Christmas. That is, unless I know for a fact they are Jewish or Muslim (I have friends of both faiths, and will not say that to them, as I know they don't celebrate it in any way). I deal with some design firms where they are directed to not wish people Merry Christmas, because it may offend them.

I don't think Manhattan would have it at all.  Seriously: I think Jesus Christmas songs wouldn't make it into the rotation.

Even in the Bible Belt, I suspect that Santa Christmas songs greatly outnumber Jesus Christmas songs at any location that is not directly affiliated with a church.  Particularly since many of those songs are distinctly American and date to the post-war era.

^^  Well I think you would be wrong.  There are actually a lot of people that still believe that Christmas is still about the birth of Christ and they do in fact have "traditional" Christmas songs playing at Christmas time.  Now, most of these places are not public places, they are in peoples homes, like mine.  Public places tend to have the "Santa Claus" stuff because they don't want to offend people who don't believe the season is about Christ either because of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.  That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that most feel it's not appropriate in a public place, like me.

So yes, I will agree that public places do tend to vote the "Santa Claus", but I think there are quite a few people that still vote for "Christmas" in their own homes like me.  Are we the minority?  I couldn't say.  You are probably right, most have replaced the spiritual Christmas with the commercial one, but not everyone has.  And just because the mall is playing "Santa Claus", I can have "Christmas" music in my home and in my car and even take it with me if I want, which I do and I think there are a lot more of the people like me than you imagine.  Just because we go to the mall too, doesn't change are beliefs.

I think the conversation in regards to music is about public places, not private areas like homes.

The conversation was about which is more prevelant, location not withstanding.

In public places it surely is, because it's more appropriate even for those who would prefer more traditional music in private and that's what really counts.  What do you choose for yourself, in private.  Because if more choose traditional in a private setting, does it really matter that the public setting is more commercial?

I don't really know what the percentage is of people that are Christians and those that are not.  I know there's still a few Christians around however, even in Manhatten.

Sure.  But nearly all of these people also have a Christmas tree with presents under it, and I'm willing to wager that unless you're specifically buying Christian CDs to play, a significant chunk of the Christmas songs that you play are also Santa Christmas songs.

There just aren't that many well-known Jesus Christmas songs.

...or, Santa Christmas is simply more popular and relevant than Jesus Christmas.

What's wrong with that?  Why can't we have our cake and eat it too?  While we open the presents we will have traditional Christmas music playing and we will also go to mass.  And what do we have atop our Christmas tree?  A star or an Angel.  I see no reason people can't celebrate both sides of the season.

Well it's not JUST Jesus that we're talking about here.  There are plenty of songs that are simply a celebration of the time of year rather than about Santa Claus or what he represents.  Most of these songs are about family values or Winter traditions that don't really have anything to do with gift giving or the commercial side of Christmas.

Walking in a Winter Wonderland.
I'm dreaming of a White Christmas.
I'll be home for Christmas
Deck the Halls
Have yourself a Merry little Christmas.
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.
Have a Holly Jolly Christmas

And that's in addition to the songs that are more religious in nature.

Angels we have heard on high
What Child is this
Away in a Manger
Silent Night
Do You hear what I hear
God Rest ye Merry Gentlemen
Hark the Herald Angels sing
Gloria
It came upon a Midnight Clear
Joy to the World
O Little Town of Bethlehem

Do I really need to go on?  In fact just looking at a couple sites that I googled with "Christmas Songs", I think I see more of the Religious and/or Christmas time variety than of the Santa Claus variety.  I think you are VASTLY underestimating what is available to be heard.  Again, you just have to be a little selective.  And I'm not against a Rudolph or Santa song, we listen to them as well, but I actually get a much more "Christmas" feeling listening to one of the above songs.

After rereading some of the thread, I realized Dan that you actually had a few of the songs that I would classify as "Traditional" in your original list.  Perhaps this is where some of our disagreement lies.  I consider Walking in a Winter Wonderland as a "traditional" song.  It's a song about Winter time which I consider "Christmas time", it's not a song about Santa nor is it a song about gift giving.  The same is true of Jingle Bells and Deck the Halls.  They are simply songs about winter time and being festive.  They don't insinuate the reason for the festivities.  That's open to interpretation depending on why or how you celebrate "Christmas".

I like how Pappy breaks them in three groups....

Santa, season, religious.  Although I would stick Frosty in season (there is absolutely no mention of either Jesus or Santa in the song although the jolly fat man has a cameo in the movie).

As a non-Christian I don't mind either the season or Santa ones.  I find the religious ones as annoying as the Jehovah Witnesses that try to convert you.   

Which is why most people (including Christians) don't feel they are appropriate for public places and they tend to try to stick to the non-religious ones in those cases.

You tell me... why can't you?  Why are people complaining about Christ being taken out of Christmas when they themselves participate in Santa Christmas?  Why not just enjoy the holiday season?

You keep trying to frame it as the "commercial" side of Christmas, but "Winter traditions" have very little to do with the birth of Jesus.  And that's the whole point: certain segments of the population are complaining about "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" (i.e. seasonal winter traditions) that serve to exclude Jesus Christ, who is (in their view) the reason for the season.

All of these songs are secular and reference at least one of the following:

- sleigh bells
- mistletoe
- candy canes
- Christmas trees
- toys

They are perfect examples of "Santa Christmas" (i.e. "Happy Holidays") songs.  Deck The Halls and Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas are particularly bad songs for you to cite, as both of them specifically mention Yule.

I've heard of maybe half of these songs, but I do live in California, so...

They don't do a very good job.  Cause I have heard all of them, and it ain't cause I am seek them out. 

100% agree with you here.  I have no problems with anyone telling me Happy Holidays, as long as they don't mind me telling them Merry Christmas.

For Christians, Christmas is a time for celebration.  We are celebrating the birth of Christ.  Anything that is done as part of that celebration has everything to do with Christ for them.  Granted that trimming a tree doesn't have much to do with Christ, but it's all a part of the celebration and we will often put a star (which represents the star of Bethlehem) or an Angel on top the tree to again remind us of why we are celebrating.

How are sleigh bells or tree trimming "Santa Christmas"?  Granted it's not "Jesus Christmas", but it's not "Santa Christmas" either.  "Santa Christmas" for me is defined as "gift giving" which I'm saying is the commercialization of Christmas.  Again, I want to stress that I have no problem with saying "Happy Holidays", which to me is the equivalent of "Merry Christmas".  They are one in the same to me.  I don't agree with those folks that think otherwise.  It's not taking Christ out of the season, it's just not sticking it in your face.  There is a difference.

And what is Yule?  It's a Pagan celebration.  Pagan yes, but still a celebration.  Christians have merely folded Yule into our celebration the same way that we have folded Santa into our celebration.  I see your point that it's not religious in nature, but for Christians it doesn't necessarily have to be about Christ, as long as it's about a celebration and the reason that Christians are celebrating might be very different from the reason that pagans are celebrating. 

I grew up a Catholic in the midwest in the 60's.  My fondest memories of Christmas are going to midnight mass with my family and listening to the choir sing absolutely beautiful versions of many of these songs.  I think these 2 facts have LOT to do with our difference of opinion.

If you listen to the radio stations that have gone all Christmas all the time starting after Thanksgiving, you will hear all these songs.
If you listen to radio stations that include some Christmas songs into their rotations you will hear more of the classic songs (i.e. Rudolph, Jingle Bells, White Christmas, etc.).
I personally think both sids need to take a chill pill. Christmas has become highly commercialized from its roots as a religious holiday so the Christians lose some of their credibility by saying their beliefs are being attacked because of not saying Merry Christmas, and the other side needs to realize that because of this over commercialization, saying Merry Christmas to people has become as innoculous as saying have a nice day.
Basically both sides of the debae have become too sensitive to something that is really a non issue compared to the real issues affecting this country.

When I say "Santa Christmas," that's shorthand for all of the aspects of the season that have nothing to do with Jesus (most of which originate from Yule), including (but not limited to) Santa Claus, decorated trees, elves, candy canes, reindeer, mistletoe, stockings on the mantle, etc.

In America, "sleigh bells" are almost exclusively associated with Santa's sleigh; in America, if you are talking about the same type of vehicle that Santa has, but in a non-Santa context, you'd probably use the word "sled" instead.

Christians essentially usurped Yule and (successfully) turned it into a holiday about Baby Jesus, and it's turning back into a holiday about the season.

My point all along is that the Yuletide celebration is fundamentally the cause of the Jesus-free Christmas that many Americans enjoy.  Contrary to conventional conservative wisdom, the War On Christmas is not about non-believers trying to suppress Jesus; it's really about people of all beliefs coming together to celebrate the Americanized version of Yule.  And that war has been decided for a long time.

What does Santa have to do with Yule?  I only think of "gift giving" when I think of Santa, nothing more.

I disagree.  In the midwest before everyone owned a car, a sleigh was the way to get around in winter, not just for Santa, but for anyone.  This is when most of those songs originated.  Sleigh rides are still popular in the midwest in the winter to this day.  Pulled by horses of course, not reindeer.  Some of the songs that mention sleigh rides specifically mention taking a ride to someones house or riding in the sleigh itself, they have nothing whatsoever to do with Santa's sleigh.

No argument from me.  All I was trying to point out is that there are still an awful lot of us Christians that still believe in "Christmas", regardless of what you want to call it.  It is in fact the Christians who have gone a long way in attempting to fold our celebration of the birth of Christ into the various other holiday traditions. Please forgive me if I would still like to call it Christmas. 

It's misguided for me to tell you that you should call it Christmas, but it's just as misguided for you to be offended if I prefer to call it Christmas.  The argument isn't that it SHOULD be called Christmas, only that calling it Christmas SHOULD NOT be discouraged which is what it sometimes is.  There are just as many people saying we SHOULD say "Happy Holidays" as there are saying we SHOULD say "Merry Christmas".  I think everyone SHOULD be able to say whatever they want.

I do live in the bible belt, and haven't heard of quite a few of those songs  :D

I'll see if I can find a good website with some "traditional" holiday music.  It's never too late to broaden your horizons.

Edit.  Try this.  I'm at work and can't actually listen to this, so don't really know how good it is, but seems to have a nice variety, no matter what you are looking for.

http://music.aol.com/radioguide/christmas-music

I have to say after I made this post I had a fantastic Christmas!!! I was greeted by far more Merry Christmases than happy holidays. I specifically listened and Jesus music was everywhere, "O Holy Night"  was rockin in many normal secular environments,  and met some non-religous people who thought that Christmas music without Jesus was still "Christ"mas music.   I even loved watching the lighting of the national tree in Washington and listening to Obama ... which is a rarity for me.

Anyway, I think God opened my pessimistic eyes to a lot of things I was missing.

 

Maybe the message is that you get out of it what you put into it.

By the way, I found a lot of good music on Verizon Fios' "sounds of the season" channel.  Listened to it almost all Christmas Eve and Day.  Very good mix of religious and non-religious stuff.