The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I'm honestly sick and tired of hearing how QB is Miami's number one priority this offseason.  News flash:  It's not.  Ignore the media, and ignore the QB "woes" that we've had for the last decade, and look at the facts. 

2009: Miami was 20th in the NFL in Passing, and 4th in the NFL in Rushing

2010: Miami was 16th in the NFL in Passing, and 21st in the NFL in Rushing

Moveover, Ronnie Brown, and Ricky Williams will both be free agents.

So let's recap.

Miami will lose at least one of their RB's this year (Ricky already said he will not be returning to Miami), after a season that saw the Dolphins drop SEVENTEEN spots in the rushing rankings, and yet QUARTERBACK is the top priority in the offseason?!  Gaining 4 spots in today's pass heavy NFL wasn't good enough for you guys?  It make not be sexy, headlining signings or draft picks, but interior offensive line help should be one of the top priorities along with the obvious running back help..everyone will obviously disagree with me, because everyone still has a hard-on for Marino, and can't accept the fact that he retired over a decade ago, and will run anyone that throws and interception out of town, but the facts are there.  Let Henne play a full goddamn season for once, don't feed into the media, and let the team address the REAL needs they....need..that's all

Sure, RB is important, but you can "patch" RB and still do pretty well.  You can get late round guys, end of career mercenaries, or even bums off of your own roster, and still do fairly well.  You also don't really have to have a RB gel with an offense.  An RB acts alone, for the sake of this argument.  He gets the ball and run through the holes that are made for him.

You can't really patch the QB position.  A QB also needs to have chemistry with his receivers, which takes time.  It's just such a more important position.

You don't win Super Bowls anymore with crap QB's. You need a top flight QB to be a contender in the NFL.

QB IS the #1 need for the Fins.

Sorry if you don't like it, but its true!

 I disagree with both of you this team scores their points 3 at a time we need a TOP FLIGHT Kicker I want Olindo Back LOL.
 Get over it guys I love this game more then anything but at the end of the Day it is a Game and no matter who the Dolphins choose to put behind center He will never be Dan but he does deserve our fullest support.
 Im sure Tony knows more about football then the majority of us  and he would never email me and tell me how to fit pipe as that is what I do
 so instead of complaining about what you dont have be thankful for what you do have.

It's the fans job to complain about the the team they support. As long as we have such obvious problems everyone needs to complain. What we don't have is a super bowl or any meaningful playoff wins.  What we do have is a sub par team. If you don't complain you just don't really care.....

be thankful for a losing team??

 ::)

Disagree strongly with both parts of that sentiment... It's very easy to be a fan of a team and be unhappy with aspects of the team (just like the complainer is unhappy)...but still not feel the need to complain. Some people just don't like complaining, and quite a few equate the chronic complainers with the same level of annoyance as the crying baby on the airplane.

When I say "chonic complainers," I'm talking about the person who makes the same basic "Chad Henne/Tony Sparano/Bill Parcells (choose one) sucks..." comment 4 times a day for months on end, as if they hope that, through repetition, others will truly appreciate how much misery they are in.

Complaining doesn't make you a fan...it makes you a complainer. Supporting your team every season...going to the games, buying the jerseys/hats/etc..., spending your time poring over articles about minutia like the backup center's old high school garage band...that's what makes you a fan. Standing up for your team when fans of other teams say your team sucks...that makes you a fan. You can complain while you're supporting the team and still be a fan, but complaining really isn't a requirement.


(edited for typo-mania)

^^^ what sunstroke said. 

^^^^^^yup

If Chad Henne/Tony Sparano/Bill Parcells does actually suck then the complaining is justified. And just as you say that people that complain are annoying, I would agree with you. But I also think that people that are overly optimistic and live in fantasy land are equally annoying. 

A little complaining is justified... A little more is even understood, if the subject of the complaint warrants it, but when a person starts posting in basketball and off-topic threads about how much they think Henne sucks...

(Dear Tepop: Miss ya... Love, Sunstroke)

...then the complaining has gone beyond tolerable levels.

So the Dolphins are so winning the Superbowl this year...:)

A different spin on this is its more of a geographic thing.

In the south, fans are crazy passionate about their college teams. And less passionate and more mild mannered about their professional teams. (ie Atlanta and Miami being the 2 worst professional sports towns in the country)

In the north, fans are crazy passionate about their professional sports teams. And less passionate and more mild mannered about their college teams.

I think the "local, south florida" Dolphins fans don't have the same passion as the Dolphins fans who don't live in Florida and will complain less and have a longer leash with players/coaches. But the Fin fans that live in Ohio or New York or Pennslyvania who live in say Eagles, Bills, Giants/Jets country and live among with the crazy passionate die-hard NFL fans of those teams....have a shorter leash and will be less tolerable of failure with the Fins. It's a different breed of people when it comes to their professional team depending on where you live.

So...Syracuse basketball fans aren't passionate about their college hoops because they're from the North? Dallas Cowboys fans aren't passionate about their NFL team because they're from the South?

Do you have some sort of national demarcation line for the "passionate/non-passionate" sections of the country as it pertains to college and pro sports? Because, frankly, your whole statement smells like a load of horseshit to me.  Maybe it's because I'm from the Northeast South-Central part of Palm Beach County, where we're passionate about the truth.

So Mike-O, since you know everything..what do you suggest Miami does about their "GLARING HOLE" at the QB spot?

Make a move and improve the position. Either draft one at 15 and let him play, trade up and get one higher in the draft.  Trade for a Carson Palmer/McNabb etc.. as a 1 or 2-year stop gap (ie Pennington) and let the one you draft  sit and learn. Or just go with a stop-gap for this year and let Henne sit behind them and maybe he straightens out or  draft a QB next year since you would still have Palmer/McNabb on board. Not that difficult. Improve the position!!

WHATEVER they do you  they can't go into a the upcoming season with Henne/Thigpen as your 1-2 punch at QB. If you do then you are staring at 4-12 or worse.

Talk about spinning what I said. I never said "weren't passionate" I said not as passionate. There is passion there. Its dfferent levels of passion. Feel free to disagree, its just my opinion.

You must have some miserable life, all you do is come here and attack attack attack and call names. My god how old are you 12?

Back to the original thread topic, I agree with the OP, I do not think that changing the QB position is the most improtatnt thing to do this off season.  Yes, I would like an upgrade at that position, who woudn't rather have a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, it's just not the most important thing THIS YEAR in my opinion.  Secondly, I'm tired of hearing people say you can "patch" the RB position.  If that were so easy to do don't you think Miami would have been in a couple SuperBowls when they had arguably the best QB ever on their roster in Dan Marino??  I mean really, "patch" the second most important position on a team??  Do you have any memory of the 80's and 90's??

Here is part of the rub though. People seem to forget how little Marino allowed the team to run during his tenure. It is common knowledge that Marino would call off run plays. It is hard to imagine what the running game could have been because it was nonexistent in play calling as much as it was in performance.

Then you haven't been watching NFL football the past decade or so. The game has changed so much. The rules are set up for PASSING the football, not running. The exact opposite of the 80's and 90's which is why your analogy makes zero sense!!! You can't win in this league without a quality if not top flight QB!!! Look at the teams that go deep in the playoffs and win super bowls.

Pitt, Saints, Colts, Packers, Pats, Jets, Ravens, Giants, Chargers....whats the one thing they all have in commen!! GREAT QUARTERBACK PLAY!!!

No team wins anymore with sub-par QB's. You might sneak into the playoffs. Hell even win a game like Seattle did last year. But after that your done.

The Packers won a Super Bowl with a RB they picked up off the street. You can find o-linemen who can play right away in the late rounds of drafts or undrafted. Same with WR. If you don't put all your time, focus, energy, and resources into the QB position though, you will be a losing franchise for a long time!!

The #1, 2, 3, and 4 needs for the Fins this year is QB! Filling in the rest of the holes becomes a whole hell of a lot easier once you settle your QB position! Period! End of debate!

LOL. It's called audibling. Yes Marino was allowed to do it. No, I never once heard Don Shula complain about it.

It's also common knowledge that Marino also audibled TO running plays.

This is called "transference." If you ever see a therapist, I'm sure they'll explain it to you in more detail. Just try to remember who gave you the accurate diagnosis first.

Also...feel free to go back to my original post in this thread and note my comments about the "constant complainers" of the world.

Derailing another thread, what you do best!  Who's complaining? Not me!

Look in the mirror sunshine!

It's Sunstroke not sunshine.

It doesn't matter what his name is!

You seem to have just refuted your own theory.  If Mark Sanchez's career 70.2 QB rating (29 TD/33 INT) qualifies as "GREAT QUARTERBACK PLAY" then Henne is just what we need.

This is why people have a hard time discussing with you.  You are always right.  Like an encyclopedia.  No one else gets to have a say, because you are always right.

Try listening, reply with opinions.  "End of debate" is not a point of discussion, its a lack of further points.

Nah, the problem can't be MikeO, it has to be everyone else...


I'd argue (and always have) that Sanchez is a better QB than Henne. Not that The Dirty One is a great QB or anything, but I think he's better than Henne.  I still think Henne has the ability to be a decent NFL starting QB, but I've gotten to the point where I don't see any impressive upside to his game. I think he can develop into an average QB, or he can stay a notch below average...but neither is an attractive long-term plan for the most important position on the field.

Ummm, perhaps a solid offensive line, perhaps better than average offensive coordinator's and better than average head coach, perhaps very good defenses, and yes lcuk does come into play in some situations.  You seem to think if we had Tom Brady or Peyton Manning that the Dolphins could magically become a super Bowl Team, or that you build a team from the Top Down.  I disagree, I think you build a team from the bottom up (meaning you start with the offensive and defensive lines).  That is what Pittsburgh and other great teams have done.  BTW the Giants, Jets, and Ravens don't have GREAT Quarterback play.  If those teams had to rely on their QB's to win games they would be in last place.

This is my point, having a great QB does not guarantee playoff or Super Bowl wins.  To expand upon your point, Marino had a great passing blocking offensive line, but they were not great at run blocking.  The other unknow question also is did Marino audible away from running plays because he thought the running game stunk?? I like to think it was just because he had so much confidence in himself and wanted the ball in his hands, which is common among great athletes. We'll never know.

back to back AFC Championship games, so Sanchez sucks in your opinion  ::)

You can't be serious. Sanchez has more road playoff wins in 2 years than the Dolphins do the last 30!!!

YES IT DOES!! What great QB isn't in the playoffs consistently???? NAME HIM!   And NOT having a great QB guarntees you won't be in the playoffs or have a shot to win the Super Bowl though!!!!

MikeO, since you're equating great quarterbacks with consistent playoff appearances, there's little left to discuss, is there? Your definition completely rules out any counterexamples.

Well yeah because I am right!

Who are the great QB's that don't make the playoffs consistently?  And who are the bad QB's in recent years that win playoff games and super bowls? NAME THEM!! So when someone says the Fins top priority isn't upgrading the QB spot, well than what the F' is the priority? Because it all begins at the QB position and if you dont' have one, I don't care about the other 50+ guys, YOU CAN'T WIN IN THIS LEAGUE!!!

;)

You really included the Jets as an example of great QB play. You really have fallen into the media hype haven't you?

I think you are missing the point of my statement entirely. Yea, we never heard Shula complain. That wasn't the point I was making. The point was you cannot look at those Dolphin teams as a pure example of not being able to find a running back, because that team was hardly running the ball. They could have had quite capable backs, but they didn't carry the ball enough to know if they could have had a good running game. There is a big difference between a team not running the ball and a team not being able to run the ball.

Fact 1 - all great QB's make the playoffs every year

Fact 2 - any QB who makes the playoffs every year is a great QB

::)

Let me see if I understand you correctly:

You need GREAT QUARTERBACK PLAY to be successful.
Sanchez' team has been (moderately) successful.
Therefore, he has necessarily played great.

Using this logic, it's impossible to disprove your claim that GREAT QUARTERBACK PLAY is needed to win, because you will claim that any QB of a winning team has played great (no matter how horrible their stats are).

I repeat again: if Mark Sanchez is your idea of GREAT QUARTERBACK PLAY then we should be out looking for the next Trent Dilfer, not the the next Aaron Rodgers.

edit: MikeO, did Ben Roethlisberger exemplify GREAT QUARTERBACK PLAY when the Steelers beat the Seahawks in the Super Bowl?

While most people are focusing on the absolute moronic inclusion of the below average Jets into the "Great" QB classification.  Neither Pitts nor the Giants have great QBs either.  They have decent QBs.  The Steelers went .750 with Big Ben.  They went .750 w/o Big Ben.  Eli is a good QB and a better QB than Sanchez or Henne, but he doesn't belong in the same classification as his older brother, Brady, Brees or even Rivers (which isn't really even great either). 

Eli is a slightly-above-average QB that had one incredible postseason.

For which I will always be thankful.

agreed.


my opinion diverge with yours here.

NO. But in the playoffs that year prior to the Super Bowl he did. And in his Super Bowl win over Arizona he led his team 90+ yards on the final drive for a TD to win it.

To knock Big Ben is insane. The guy has been in the league less than 10 years, has 2 rings and been to 3 Super Bowls. To say he isn't great is laughable

Knock Sanchez all ya want, he is the main reason that team has been to 2 AFC Championship games. It's not their overrated defense.

And Phillip Rivers isn't great either you say.....do you people even WATCH NFL FOOTBALL???  Look at his numbers for christ sakes!!

I am asking for examples and you can't provide them. LIST the great QB's in the NFL and tell me if  every year (except for the occasional blip on the rader every now and then) are they esentially  in the playoffs?  Wanna shut me up, provide examples. What great QB has had a dry spell of back to back years of no playoffs? Or 3 years in a row of no playoffs? You can't name one. Look at the list, Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers, Cutler, Sanchez, Big Ben, Eli, Ryan, Flacco..etc). The great QB's of today are in the playoffs damn near every year. On occasion they might miss 1 year, but they damn near don't miss 2 years in a row or more!
 
Then look at the teams that dont make the playoffs on any consistent basis except for a year every now and then (Miami, Detroit, Tampa, Cleveland, Buffalo, Jacksonville, Washington, San Fran, St.Louis, Tenn...etc) what is the ONE THING THEY HAVE IN COMMEN?? THEY DON'T HAVE A GREAT QB!!!

It's not that difficult....have a great QB, you have a shot to win. Don't have one, and you are a bottom feeder team in the NFL. Which is why it is LAUGHABLE BEYOND BELIEF when someone says the Dolphins TOP PRIORITY is NOT quarterback. It's not the top priority, its the ONLY priority at the moment. Fix that, then move on to other things. Until you fix that you are just spinning your wheels in the mud going nowhere

I don't think any Fins fan doesn't want to upgrade the QB position, however some of us just don't think it's the #1 priority this year.  My reasoning is as follows: Believe it or not Football is a team sport.  The great QB's you mention in your posts are on teams that have filled all the major holes on special teams, defense, and other offensive positions; the Dolphins haven't.  If I wanted to waste my time I could go through past drafts and point out instances where sub par teams such as the Dolphis drafted #1 QB's and it didn't do them any good because the other pieces of the puzzle weren't in place.  I also take into consideration that this is not a strong draft class for QB's, nor are there any free agents that would be a substantial upgrade.  So, to review I'd like to see a QB upgrade, but IMO it's just not the #1 priority.  You can't win in this league without the other 50+ guys.

Its a team sport but teams have IMPORTANT players and less improtant players. QB is the MOST IMPORTANT player on the team and there isn'ta  close 2nd to that. Without a good one, your screwed! Especially in the NFL in the year 2011 with the rules set up the way they are.  Teh days of 3 yards and a cloud of dust are dead and burried. And if youc an't move the ball via the air and get "chunk plays", you lose!

This whole "team sport" you mention is a joke. In theory yes, but some guys (ie Peyton Manning) ARE THE TEAM!! If Peyton blows out a knee, the Colts are a 3 win team...maybe!  If Peyton is healthy they are a 13 win team. Same goes for the Saints, Packers, Chargers..etc.  If you can't see that then you are lost

Well, since you want to use actual statistics:

Drew Brees has made the playoffs 4 of his 9 years in the league as a starter, having missed 2 years in a row twice.
Eli Manning has made the playoffs 4 of his 7 years in the league as a starter, having missed 2 years in a row (current streak).
Jay Cutler (whom you specifically cited, for reasons unknown) has made the playoffs exactly once in his 5-year career as a starter.
Michael Vick has made the playoffs 3 of his 7 years in the league as a starter, having missed 2 years in a row.
Carson Palmer has made the playoffs 2 of his 7 years in the league as a starter, having missed 3 years in a row.
Kurt Warner has made the playoffs 5 of his 11 years in the league as a starter, having missed 6 years in a row.
Donovan McNabb has made the playoffs 7 of his 12 years in the league as a starter, having missed 3 years in a row.


If you want to throw out everyone you didn't name, (including Warner, the all-time leader in SB passing yards), sure.  The rest of these guys (all gentlemen that you specifically cited) have a combined playoff ratio of 9/21 (42.9%).  The illustrious Jay Fiedler made the playoffs 2 of the 5 years he started here.  That's 40%.

Jay Fiedler, your going back some 10+ years for that one. Really? REALLY? Please

I will give ya the Cutler and Eli numbners. But nobody is considering Palmer or Vick elite. Also some of thsoe guys were backups for years and you can't hold that against him (ie Warner) . Hell even McNabb was benched last year. Not to mention Palmer has been injured a ton and missed whole seasons or large chunks of them. FUZZY MATH by your part. Bad examples minus Eli and Cutler

What you fail to realize is the flaw in your circular logic.

A good team makes a QB look great.  A good TEAM makes the playoffs.  Thus giving the appearance of a great QB making the playoffs all the time.  Crap teams don't make the playoffs.

But you don't say anything about all the good teams with crap QB's that make the playoffs.  It happens every year, and occasionally they take it all the way.

You don't need a great QB to win, as long as you have a dominant defense.  This is a FACT, not up for debate.  Jay Fiedler is a great example.  Brad Johnson, Rich Gannon, Trent Dilfer are others.

I'm concerned about the current state of the franchise (Coach,Front office),and making a decision at the QB based on the roster now (current CBA problems,and how it will effect this years season),that will hurt the franchise in the future....

Edited longer post,to one statement.....

Flame away..

Jay Cutler is "elite" but Vick is not?  Do explain.

I only counted years in which Warner was starting.

Was he benched because of GREAT QUARTERBACK PLAY?

So now durability doesn't count?  In that case, get Pennington on the phone.

1) You seem to have completely missed the example of Drew Brees, who has made the playoffs less than half of his time as a starter.
2) I already gave you the benefit of excluding everyone but Brees, Eli, and Cutler; that's how I arrived at the 42.9% playoff rate.

By MikeO's logic:

Brad Johnson > Dan Marino. 

Fiedler/Johnson/Gannon had NFL success  a long time ago by NFL Standards, going back damn near a decade! And played in a league with different set of rules for the most part. The game has changed so much in recent years, those guys would have never won in todays NFL

Not at all. It's the opposite actually but your too dumb to understand my entire point and follow this conversation. Marino (a truly great QB) carried his teams in the playoffs damn near every year. Johnson on the other hand couldn't.

So MikeO's point is such an established, well-proven tenet of the National Football League that... it falls apart when applied less than ten years ago.  Got it.

If you are talking about "a long time ago by NFL standards," at least have the decency to be referring to the pre-salary cap era.  Otherwise, you're using time as a crutch, solely because you know your claim does not stand up to historical scrutiny (and in the case of Sanchez and Cutler, it doesn't even stand up to today's scrutiny).

No, I think you're too dumb.

Well now you've gone and done it!!(:))

thats it, can't argue the point. So lets go looking for typos and grammer errors  ::)

So you want your favorite team to have a crappy or poor QB and don't feel the need to upgrade or feel its a top priority. Thats your point then if you don't agree with me...  you are really showing off your football knowledge there!! Spider-Dan is for bad QB play and isn't worried! ha ha It's amazing!

Which rule changes in the last 10 years are you referring to? I contend the rules are pretty much the same today as they were 10 years ago. There's a few rules that have been enforced to prevent injuries, but nothing that I can think of that would impact the game so greatly as to make it a different game today then of 10 years ago.

You wouldn't happen to have any evidence of this drastic change in the last 10 years would you?

Exactly.  I never took a stance to begin with (hell I might actually agree with you to a point), but when you call some one dumb and you type something that makes you look dumb in the same sentence, I'm going to point it out.

No, I think when you say "You must have GREAT QUARTERBACK PLAY to win in this league... that's why the Jets have done well!" you have just invalidated your own point.

Going off of any metric but wins, Sanchez has been average to below-average.  And using the metric of wins to explain why he is winning is circular logic.

Yet you also assert that Sanchez is carrying his team to playoffs.  As if we were to put Henne on the Jets and Sanchez on the Dolphins,  the Jets would be 7-9 and the Dolphins would be playing in the AFCCG.

I contend if you put Sanchez on the Dolphins they are still a mediocre team and you could have put Henne or even Jamacus Russell on the squad the Jets had last year and they would have been contenders. 

^^ Yet not forget the Jets running game in 2009 was #1 in the league in rushing yards per game172.2 yards per game,and #4 in 2010 148.4 ypg...Total defense the Jets were #1 in 2009,and #3 in 2010..But hey who's arguing stats? ::)

^^^^^ Thanks B!

I am sure MikeO can explain this.....

The only reason why the Jets running game was effective was defenses feared the mighty Dirty Sanchez.  It is well known fact that teams game planned to stop Mark.  Teams would not even attempt stop Jets the running game focusing solely and preventing the pass.  Mark's down field threat was what made LdT so effective.   ::)

just getting to the afc championship versus winning the super bowl are in 2 different stratospheres. the jets are blowhards, who haven't won a damn thing. in both championship games, the team with the better qb beat them.

the dolphins need a hell of a lot better qb to even get to the playoffs, much less think about being super bowl contenders.

at this point the dolphins need to get away from spending first round draft picks on running backs, and swing for the fences. find a difference maker that can actually be a franchise qb to build around. draft mallet, pick up a veteran free agent qb, and cut their losses with the clueless, interception machine henne.