The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I'm a big fan of Penn and Teller.  They are doing a show in the UK called "Fool Us".  Basically, people come in and do a magic trick and Penn and Teller have to determine how it was done.  The contestants are competing to open for Penn and Teller's show in Vegas.  I've included one here that's pretty cool - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-rDXweytac&amp

This short clip is classic Penn and Teller.......of course there is a "twist" at the end - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WfVXb_y7Xw

That card trick was one of the most amazing tricks I've ever seen.

That show looks very entertaining.  I love this kind of stuff and can see myself watching it regularly.

That card trick was pretty cool, but it would have been even cooler if the person doing the trick didn't coax the last person into calling the nine of diamonds.

I love this show!  Why isn't it on in the US?!

I don't think that's it.  I saw someone say something about the cards being marked, so that he can arrange them to say whatever card he wants.

I read that it's a special deck that allows him to identify any card by reordering the cards.  I'm sure there are cards he would "prefer" people choose (making it easier to create the answer) and I bet there is some gentle manipulation taking place (emphasis on words, color of the ball, etc).

The deck can definitely create multiple outcomes; I'm not positive it can create EVERY outcome, but it sure looks like it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWUmk7Yuyqk

I am a big fan of their magic. I hate their Bullshit TV show. Stick to magic guys.

That was pretty cool.

I found Penn & Teller's "guess"as to how the trick worked completely mystifying. If they believed what they said, that the chosen card was indeed random, then it doesn't appear plausible that the little box could have contained enough different decks to cover all the possibilities. Personally, I thought he stuck those black bits on the cards, since he kept fidgeting with them. (Closer, but not correct).

YouTube offered a pretty interesting "related" trick, where some other guy fooled P&T:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYfjCUeCPMM

It's not as flashy, perhaps, and a bit too drawn out, but Penn's reaction is gold. He seems genuinely pissed that they couldn't figure it out.

^^I think I actually got this one.

I'm guessing that he actually has 6 envelopes throughout the trick.  The 5 with nothing in them "Something", "Nothing", "Yours", "Mine" and "Sex" and the one with the 100 pounds.  After 4 are taken, he's seemingly left with only 1, the one with the 100 pounds, but I think he actually has 2 envelopes at that point, the one with the 100 pounds and "mine". They are held tightly together so you can't see the extra envelope and when he flips the envelope over, you are actually seeing the one with 100 pounds in it for the first time, you just can't tell that he's actually holding the 2nd envelope with the word "mine" on it under it.

I've dabbled in Magic a bit myself.  I think I have this one nailed or I'm pretty darn close.

Actually the more I think about it, I'm wondering if Penn & Teller aren't "in" on it. This actually seemed like a fairly easy trick to figure out. I'm actually quite surprised they didn't come up with the right answer, which almost makes me think they may be doing a bit of acting to make the trick seem better than it really is.  Do the winners of this competition actually win anything or are they just supposed to "fool" P&T? I'm wondering if the ones being fooled is the audience. I certainly wouldn't put that past P&T. Kind of goes with what FYO said above, that their "guess" was pretty stupid and in fact seemed to be part of the trick when he opens the box to show "No". That seemed pretty staged to me.

Another thing that really bothered me was that wouldn't P&T be giving away the solution to these tricks if they actually "guessed" right? One of the first rules of magic is that you never give away the secret. In essence the very idea of this show is for P&T to violate the 1st rule of magic...unless....you actually don't which is what P&T are very good at. Seems like P&T are just part of the props to the tricks.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I think you may be right about P&T being in on the trick.  I suspect they know a lot more than they let on.  The winner of the show gets to open for P&T in Las Vegas, so they are looking for the best showmen, not just a magician that can fool them.  It would be just like Penn and Teller to be punking the audience.

As for never giving away magic tricks, P&T don't follow that rule.  In fact, I saw their show in Vegas, and at least 3 of the tricks were done and then redone with P&T showing how they pulled it off.  The reveal is just as entertaining as the show.  Of coarse, they don't reveal all the tricks, and like the 2nd clip I posted in the original post, sometimes there is a twist to the reveal.

Whenever I've seen P&T do a reveal, they follow it up with another better trick that they don't reveal.

If you watch the full episode of Fool Us (it's on Youtube), they actually do take pains to avoid giving away the secret.  They use a lot of jargon ("we believe that you 'rang in the cooler'") and at one point, Teller draws a diagram of how he thinks the trick worked and shows it to the performer, who accepts that he did not fool them.

FYI, there is a magician (with the American Society of Magicians) on staff with the show, who apparently has had the trick explained and acts as the "judge" of whether or not P&T were really fooled.

They did a trick with a cell phone and a fish that I defy you to explain.  Its on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRw69htzQnU

FF to 4:35 for the trick.

edit to add - I see how it was done, after some clever youtube searching... ;)

Yeah, that's an effective technique to really mess with your audience's head.

Ok, that makes sense, I guess they were just fooled. Heck maybe I was too, but I still think I nailed it. :)

Well now that you have seen it, I can tell you I pretty much knew how they did it. I looked it up on youtube, but the video I saw only showed Penn palming the phone and it being put into the fish offstage, it didn't show how Teller gets the fish into the box, but I'm pretty sure I know that too. I used to do a trick where a coin from someone that was marked with a black felt tip pen ended up inside a matchbox that was wrapped with rubber bands which was inside a bigger wooden box that was also wrapped with rubber bands. The hardest part of the trick was palming the coin which really isn't that hard.

I saw that fish trick live, in Vegas.  I think that there might be a trapdoor under the guy's seat.

Nah, it's much easier than that. Almost all magic tricks are easy once you know how they do it. The "trick" is making you believe the phone is in that fish all along. Most likely the phone never is really "in" that fish until the very end and it only really appears to be "in" the fish because of the way that Teller cuts open the fish and fishes out the phone (pardon the pun).  It's slight of hand and misdirection.

Here's a quick rundown of the things I noticed during the trick.

1) Teller goes into the audience to find someone with a cellphone. He's looking for a particular type of phone - - something like a smartphone. That's important because Penn is going to palm the phone, but convince you he still has it. Look at the way he holds the phone when he's taking her picture, covering the majority of the phone with his hand.

2) They go through a lot of trouble to make you believe Penn tosses the phone to Teller who catches it in the bucket and raises it up to the roof. That all just adds to the illusion for the audience. It's misdirection. If you believe the phone is in that bucket, you're mistaken.

3) They actually call the phone 3 different times. I suspect there's a reason for that. The first time they have it called is to find out what the phone actually sounds like when it rings so they can duplicate it. I suspect the phone you hear the 2nd ring is not her phone and it's not in the fish and it's not in the box.

4) Another bit of misdirection happens just after they open the box with the fish in it. Penn and the owner of the phone are at the front of the stage and Teller is taking the fish around to the back of the stage to put it on the table to cut it open, he's pretty much obscured from sight for just a second. There's a reason for that. They want you looking at Penn and the woman, not at Teller where the "fishy" stuff is happening.  After that he cuts open the fish to reveal the phone. I suspect the phone was never really "in" that fish until that very moment.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I know how they get the phone off the stage, into the fish, and into the box.  What I don't understand is how the guy pulls the box from under his seat and brings it to the stage.  Unless they are switching the "dummy" box under his seat with the "real" box containing the fish, once it's at the stage.  I think I remember them very clearly keeping the box in sight the whole time.

How do you know how they got the phone off stage, into the fish and into the box? Did you see the video that I saw showing what the phone recorded? If you did, the video I saw only shows a guy appearing to put a phone into a fish. I don't think that's exactly what happens, I think that's what P&T want you to think happens because that still doesn't explain how they get the fish and the box out into the audience. That's more misdirection. That's more P&T revealing the trick without revealing the trick. The phone is never in that fish until Teller puts it in there while cutting open the fish.

You ever see someone cut open a lemon or something and find a dollar bill or something inside it? You honestly believe the dollar is in the lemon prior to cutting it open?  As far as I know they don't grow lemons with dollars inside them. That's slight of hand to make you think the dollar bill is in the lemon when they cut it open. Same thing with the fish. It's very convincing, but it's not real.

Again, that's just my opinion, I'm no master magician, I could be wrong.

Actually I take that back, the phone you hear that 2nd time is probably not her phone and it's not in the fish, but it may be hidden within the box. I was thinking that it could be hidden underneath the seat, but that could be found by a nosy busybody like me, better to actually hide it within the box because no one is gonna be able to inspect the box once it's back on stage and there's no way for you to tell the difference between the phone being in the fish or just being within the box.

Because I saw it.  Between watching the video online and watching the show live, you can see.

They palm her phone early.  Then, they throw a false phone into the bucket that goes above the stage.  Then, they put the real phone in a pocket behind the Cris Angel cutout on stage.  When it is taken off stage, a stagehand takes the phone, puts it in a plastic sleeve, cuts open a fish, and seals it in the box.

I know that FOR SURE.  I watched it.

The only thing that you can't tell (because the phone is sealed in the box, is how the box gets under the seat.  (Assuming it's the same box.)  But, if I recall, Penn handles the box very clearly and gingerly at the reveal part, never attempting any sleight of hand or misdirection.  By that time, the work of the trick is over.

I have no doubt that's what you watched, it's essentially the same thing I saw and I believe all of that, right up till they cut open the fish, put the phone in and seal it in the box offstage. That part is a misdirection to thrown you off track. Let me ask you this, who made that video? Someone associated with the show I'm assuming, it pretty much would have had to have been. You think P&T may have known about this video? Perhaps even approved of making it? Why would they do that, aren't they giving away the trick? No, they aren't, because they haven't given away the MOST important part of the trick, how do they get the box and the fish into the audience. THAT is the trick. The video is to fool you into believing the phone is in the fish which is inside the box. I don't buy it. It's more misdirection. It's more P&T doing their thing only with a cell phone camera and a video of "behind the scenes with P&T".

That IS the trick. This is simply how P&T operate. Show you the trick, then show you how the trick is done without really showing you how the trick is done so that you're still left scratching your head. The reveal part of the trick convinces you that the phone is in the fish inside the box, put there by stage hands off stage, but that's not how they do the trick because that doesn't explain how the box gets into the audience. In magic, the simplest solution is usually the correct one, which is that they DON'T get the phone into the fish inside the box out in the audience. The phone gets into the fish AFTER they take it out of the box after taking it out of the audience and most likely it's put there by Teller as he's cutting open the fish. He's just very good at making it seem like the phone has been there the whole time. That's called slight of hand. It's not easy, but if done right it's surprisingly effective.

And I'm going back to my original thought that P&T are in on the tricks with this show. The whole notion of bringing in a "official" magician who knows how the trick is performed so that he can reveal whether or not P&T really were fooled, the part about using magician jargon so they can say how it's done without saying how it's done...it's all staged. It's ALL part the trick. The whole show is one big magic trick with P&T being the master magicians and the other magicians playing their part in the trick. It's genius. I'm convinced of it.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

One last comment. When the magician shows you the top hat and says "Here I have an empty top hat" and then proceeds to pull a rabbit out of the hat, was the magician lieing when he said it was empty?

What's the difference between that and P&T telling you that the show is real. They're magicians. Their job is getting you to believe something that's not real. That's the trick. That's what this show is. A big magic trick.

I'm not trying to bring the show down, I LOVE it. I think it's genius.

Penn and Teller announce that they are recording from the girl's phone.  It's part of the act.  They even tell you that you can go on YouTube and see how the trick is done, from the people who've uploaded the trick from their phones.  There are many versions of this same trick on youtube, just like I saw it. 

I think you're way off hat a switch happens and the phone is never in the fish.  The phone is most definitely inside the fish.  They have the girl take it out herself and, like I said, there's not any slight of hand going on.

I don't think that there's a question that there's a box, with a fish inside it, with the girl's phone inside it.  That exists.  They don't make an effort to misdirect at that point.


Just curious, have you actually seen the trick, or have you only seen the cell-phone camera portion of the trick?

That's a dead giveaway there Dave. They want you to watch the youtube video and see how they get the phone and they want you to believe they put the phone in the fish offstage and then put it in the box and sealed it up offstage. That way you're totally amazed that that box ends up in the audience and has been there since the beginning of the show. That leaves you scratching your head. They haven't shown you anything. They've shown you EXACTLY what they wanted to show you. That's what magicians do. Trust me Dave, that's the TRICK. Making you believe something that's not true, that they put the phone in the fish off stage and then sealed it up in the box.

That's the reason for the video. They don't want you to believe that they put the phone in the fish right there at the end. That's the deception. The video helps with the deception. You don't believe there's any misdirection going on because you believe you've already seen the phone going into the fish backstage and the fish going into the box. Well I'll tell you Dave that most magic RELIES on the fact that you don't believe there's any misdirection going on. The magician convinces you of something that's simply not true because you don't believe he could do it right in front of you without seeing it. That's called slight of hand and it's the oldest form of magic known. Teller is a MASTER. Teller is the magician. Penn is nothing but an engaging guy. Why do you think it is that Penn does all the talking and Teller doesn't say a word? It's so that when Teller is doing something sneaky you aren't looking at him, you're listening to Penn talking. That's called patter. Magicians rely on it. It's extremely effective in keeping you looking in the wrong direction when they want to conceal something. Now don't get me wrong, Penn is a great magician in his own right, I'm just saying that most of the time when they need to do something they don't want you to see, it's Teller doing it while Penn is distracting you.

I've only seen the trick performed in the link that Brien provided. I've also seen the video on youtube that supposedly explains how the trick is performed. It shows the video that was actually taken with the phone which just shows Penn palming the phone and the phone ending up back stage and then shows someone putting a phone inside a fish. There's no way to tell whether or not the phone that's being put into the fish is in fact the phone that the trick was performed with. There's also no way of knowing what happens to that fish. For all I know that phone isn't even the person's phone, it's merely a prop and that fish may end up in the trash, there's no way of knowing if that's the fish that Teller then cuts open to reveal a phone.

Let me ask you this, which is easier to believe? That there's a trap door under the floor of every theatre where this trick has been preformed and that they're able to get to it from off stage after putting the phone in a fish and sealing it in a box and then they are able to switch that box with a box that looks just like it right in front of about 6 people while the trick is being performed....or that Teller simply does a little slight of hand and makes you believe the phone comes out of the fish?

But, I can tell Dave that I'm not going to convince you. That's ok. That just proves how good P&T are at what they do. Even when someone tries to tell you that you are being deceived you won't believe them. That's a tribute to P&T.

I don't think we're on the same page.  I'm not really amazed by the trick.  I'm amazed at the simplicity of it, maybe.  The trick essentially comes down to the one move: the switching of the phones on the stage.

Once that happens, there's nothing else magical.

Why is the trapdoor under the seat such a crazy idea?  It's a custom built theater for magic.  I'm assuming that there is space under the stage.  I've seen them use that for other tricks in other shows.

I understand how P and T work.  They do slight of hand the whole show, in different ways, but this just isn't one of those cases.  They also talk about it, as well as how their magic works -- that they're tricking you.  In this trick, though, after the box comes back, it's not them handling the stuff, I don't think.  The girl is the one who takes the cell phone out of the fish....not Penn or Teller.

I just watched this again on youtube, from the Fool Us show.  It's a different version of the trick than I saw, but only slightly.

It's all the same, except for the end, the box isn't on someone's seat.  It's underneath a guy's seat.

I see. The fact that the phone ends up in a fish inside a sealed box thats been sitting in plain sight of several people in the audience for the duration of the show is just window dressing? That's the trick. That's what makes the trick "magical". The fact that Penn can palm a phone and replace it with a look alike is a pretty simple thing. Any average magician can do that.


So any time P&T wish to perform this trick they have to use that theatre? That's not exactly a great way to setup a trick. Even if they could get to the floor under the box, they'd still have to remove the box from the seat and replace it with another one that looks just like it without letting any of the audience members that are sitting right next to it see them do it. That's some pretty nifty work right there and its not done by Penn or Teller who are on stage at the time, it's done by a stage hand.

In the video that Brien linked, Teller kinda pushes the phone up from the bowels of the fish so that the woman can grab the top of the phone. All that is required is that there's a slit in the side of the fish that's wide enough for the top of the phone to be slipped into. Once Teller cuts open the fish, he pushes the phone completely through that slit in the side of the fish and out the gaping hole he just cut which makes it appear to be pushed up from inside the fish, but it never really was inside the fish except for that EXACT moment when he pushed it into the fish from that slit in the side of the fish. Prior to that moment Teller has to hide the phone and the slit in the fish from view of the audience and the camera. If you have ever cut a flap in a fish with a nice sharp knife and then layed the skin back down, it's barely noticeable. The skin almost seals itself, much like your own skin when you slice it open with a sharp knife. That's where the slight of hand comes in. In one quick motion, Teller puts the phone into that slit and pushes it up through the fish. He's probably practiced a few hundred times so that he's able to do it quickly and without anyone seeing him do it. It looks completely natural, like the phone is being pushed out from deep inside the fish, but it's merely an illusion.

I'm just telling you how I would do it. I've done tricks like this before. Obviously not this elaborate as I'm not nearly the magician that P&T are, but I understand how tricks like this work. A little slight of hand goes a long way towards performing a lot of tricks. Can you honestly tell me that there's no way that this would work?

After seeing the trick this way, I can see why you say what you do.  Again, the version that I saw didn't have the box in plain sight.  It was underneath a chair in their custom-built theater.

So they have improved upon it, wouldn't you say?  ;D

I'd be willing to bet when they first did this trick they didn't use a smart phone, just a plain phone. Then when smart phones became popular, they realized it would be even better if they turned on the camera of the phone so that you could see Penn palming the phone early on in the trick. Then they went one step further and decided to film them putting the phone in the fish and sealing up the box, even further reinforcing the idea that the phone is truly in the fish which is sealed inside the box.

Magicians often improve upon tricks as they do them. The first iteration is usually the worst and it gets better over time as they think up better and better ways to "sell" the illusion.

Pappy, what you're describing doesn't fit with P&T's MO. When they reveal how a trick is done, there's no misdirection about it. The reveal is totally authentic. They may (and often do) layer something on top of it, but that doesn't make their reveal "fake" in any way.

I've seen tons of P&T and never once have I seen a fake reveal from them. They don't always show all the parts, which is what happens here, but the parts they do show are completely on the level.

^^Actually the clip in the very first post in the thread shows an EXTREMELY fake reveal from Penn and Teller.  It's the one where they are sawing a woman in half. They lay the women down in a box and then put a saw blade through her and then pull her apart and then they proceed to remove a piece of the table she is laying on to reveal that her midsection is actually well below the blade and then "accidentally" the blade goes right through the midsection of the woman cutting her completely in half with blood and entrails hanging out. So I guess that part is real? No, the reveal was fake as was the rest of the trick.

The "reveal" was real; they showed how the trick would have been done, just with a fake body in place of the real one.

Using a fake body does not change the fact that they are showing how that trick is commonly performed.  It's just that P&T (obviously) were performing a different trick.

I think that cellfish is new.  I have only seen it done with an iPhone.

I think that P&T picking the phone is key.  I think that they pick a black iPhone 3G every time.  That way, they have a phone to switch.  I think the switch happens when Penn puts the necklace on Elton John (he put one on Cris Angel in my version). 

From there, there are 2 things that have to happen.  The box has to "ring" (which could be done with a speaker in the box, I suppose. ...as well as to show up in the fish, that, as Pappy said, could be done by inserting the phone in the underside of the fish while or before he's cutting the head off.

the phone has to ring because of th timing with the audience member.  What happens if the "friend" has no service or dials the wrong number by mistake or does something (anything) funky and the fish phone still rings.  What happens if the "player" from the audience has a unique ringtone on her phone like Back That Ass Up or something else that likely wouldn't be on a replacement phone.  They have to be prepared to deal with that, which means the real phone HAS TO be in the box.

And, if there is a trap door, wouldn't an observant audience member possibly notice movement under a seat in front of them?

So you're saying that they didn't really reveal how THEY do it, they revealed how someone "might" do it.  How is that different from what I'm describing in the fish trick?

After thinking about it, my solution would be to have the actual phone placed next to a microphone or something back stage that transmits the ring when the phone is called to a speaker hidden in the box or something along those lines. I think that would handle just about any situation.

No, they revealed how that trick is performed; that just wasn't the trick that they did.  But since they are not really doing a trick reveal with the fishphone, that's a separate point.

Essentially, you are accusing them of faking/altering video.  There is no reason to believe that if they say the video is from the point-of-view of the phone, that they are somehow altering that video.

Pappy13, do you actually have any professional experience with magic?  You seem to be representing that you do, or that magic is easily solved by a viewer using common sense.  Having read the blogs of a professional conjurer (James Randi) for several years, I do not share your opinion.

Aren't they "faking" a girls body being stretched between those 2 boxes? 

Essentially you are saying that I'm questioning the veracity of statements made by P&T while performing a trick. Guilty as charged. LOL

Professional? Well I've never been paid to perform magic, however I have performed in front of a live audience of about 50 kids a couple times and I was paid in the form of a board game once I believe it was when I performed for a birthday party or something like that.

I began messing around with magic when I was about 10. I started with a magic set I got for Christmas. The next Christmas I performed a few tricks in front of my family. Every year after that I would do a magic act at Christmas for them.  Every year I would buy a couple more magic tricks from a local magic shop and I would practice them all year. I also bought a lot of magic books and read up on guys like Houdini and others.  This lasted up to the time I was about 18 or so when other things in my life took preference. I still had most of my magic tricks until I was about 35 or so and would from time to time entertain my own kids. I have always been fascinated with magicians and I'll always stop to watch a good magician do his stuff and I would often try to figure out how they would do it. It's been a hobby of mine since I was like 10.

Well I don't know how easy it is, but the more you learn, you start to realize that there are basic concepts and principals behind many tricks. From there you just build on those basic building blocks. Often times I would think up a new way to do an existing trick after learning how another trick was done. I think that's essentially what a lot of magicians do. And while I said the 1st rule of magic is to never give away the secret of a trick, there's also an unwritten adendum to that which says you can teach someone to do the trick if they are going to perform the trick themself and if they agree not to reveal the secret. I used to go to magic shops and ask them to perform some of the tricks to see if I liked them. You'll find if you do that most likely someone in the store can perform the trick and is eager to show them to you. If you purchase the trick, they'll often teach you how to perform it or give you tips on doing it well.

Which opinion is that? That tricks are easy to solve by using common sense? I didn't say that, you did. I have maintained all along that I know a bit about magic and it helps me figure out how it's done. I don't always know how it's done, many magicians have fooled me. Sometimes I have a pretty good idea and given enough time to think about it, can probably come up with an answer that's at least pretty close if not right. If you've been reading along, I've kinda figured out more and more of the trick as we went along. At first I didn't really know how they got the phone to appear to be in the fish, but the more I thought about it, I came up with a pretty plausible explanation. At first I didn't really know how they were able to handle the ringing of the phone, but as time went on and I thought a bit more about it, I came up with what I thought would be a workable solution. I can't tell you if that's how they do it, only how I might try to do it. I could be wrong. I've said that from the very beginning and I haven't said that anyone else here is wrong, only that I think the solution is pretty simple.

And you should know by reading James Randi that he doesn't believe that anyone has any special powers. He's spent a greal deal of time debunking people who claim to have special powers and pretty much defies someone to prove him wrong. In essence he's saying that EVERYTHING is a trick and can be explained using common sense, so really I don't think what I'm saying is anything differnt from what Randi has pretty much staked his reputation on. Please show me where James Randi says that illusions are anything more than just that, an illusion.

It seems there is a greater overall issue we have.

The phone that is "in the fish" at the end is the original phone.
The phone taking the video (when Penn palms it, right before it "goes into the fish") is the original phone.

If you dispute either of these two statements, you are saying that the audience member is a plant, as well as the other person in the audience that calls them.  That is the laziest possible explanation of any magic act; namely, that the participants (the "marks," if you will) were "in on the trick."  (Notably, it is the same explanation you used for the entire premise of the "Fool Us" show.)

You can explain away 99% of all magic tricks (without even watching them) by saying that everyone involved is an accomplice.  That's not really explaining anything at all.

Agreed.

The phone taking the video is the original phone. I'm going from the video on youtube that I saw, there are more than 1 so I'm not sure which one you saw. Penn does not palm it right before it "goes into the fish". Penn Palms it and the image on the phone pretty much goes dark, probably slips it into his pocket or something at that point. The next thing you see is someone off stage pointing the phone camera at P&T on stage proving that the camera has already been taken and is now offstage. Then it's pointing at someone with a fish. I don't believe you actually see the phone go into the fish. At that point the video ends presumably since there's not much else to see, supposedly the trick has been completed. Perhaps there are other video's that show the rest of the video from the person's camera, but I doubt very much that you'll see anything other than darkness (presumably while the camera is in the fish) and then the audience when it comes out of the fish assuming it's still recording. If I'm off base, please provide a link to a video that you are watching.

How's that? Show me a video that shows me something other than what I just described above and then show me how that shows that anyone must be a plant. You've lost me.

I NEVER said that. Please show me where I said that.

I have explained 2 tricks and how I believe they were done, neither of which required plants. The only people I have claimed to have been "in" on the act are the magicians involved, P&T, the performers and the "official" magician. Yeah, usually the magicians are the ones in on the act.

If the phone at the end is not the original phone, the mark is lying, and is therefore a plant.
If the phone taking the video is not the original phone, the mark is lying, and is therefore a plant.

The premise of the show "Fool Us" is that a magician is performing a trick for P&T, who have to try to figure out how it was done in one viewing.  In such a scenario, P&T are the marks.  You said that they are knowingly cooperating with the performing magician (but lying about it):

If what you say is true, that would make P&T (i.e. the marks) plants.

Agreed. Neither person is a plant. The phone at the end is the original and the video (at least the one I saw) was taken by the phone that was involved in a trick that P&T performed. None of this is disputed by me in anything I have written.

P&T are magicians. Do you dispute this? Magicians lie about the tricks they perform. In my scenario, P&T are performing a trick. The trick being getting the audience (both the audience where the show is taped and the viewing audience) to believe that the show is about fooling P&T when in fact they are "in" on the tricks, know how they are done and only pretend not to know. This makes the tricks seem more impressive as they've been able to fool the great P&T. The magicians performing the tricks on stage are merely props in that trick, but they themself are in fact also performing a trick. It's a trick within a trick if you will, much like Shakespeare's play within a play. P&T are magicians, not plants.

A mark is someone who is unknowingly taken by someone else in some kind of scam, not someone who is cooperating with a magic trick, that would be a plant.

And now I'm done with this Spider as we have gone plenty far enough off topic as usual.

The premise of the show is that P&T are looking for someone with an act good enough to stump them.  If they aren't actually being stumped, what's the point?  It's no different than if the entire audience of that show were all plants.  The pick-an-envelope trick wouldn't even qualify as magic; the whole show would be nothing more than a poorly-written play.

Slightly OT, but I was just amazed at seeing the following video... a short conference talk by Teller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5x14AwElOk