The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Didn't realize the first two weeks of the nba season were cancelled. Am i the only one that doesn't really miss the NBA?

Compared to other sports, basketball is just not exciting, plus the fouls committed are a joke, you barely touch a person and the other person gets two shots, or depending on if he gets the shot, then 1 shot, or three is other situations, the rules are a joke.

Compared to baseball, basketball is a crazy roller coaster of non-stop excitement, but that's just my opinion.

Normally, I'd be really psyched for the NBA season to start.  However, since my team won it all in June, I couldn't give 2 fucks if the season is canceled or not.  In fact, if it is, my team is still the reigning champs.  I almost don't care if there's a season at all.  It's true.  Winning does solve all problems.  :D

I would kill for the NBA right now.

Too much good football and too much good hockey going on right now for me to miss the hoops. If they announce tomorrow that the entire NBA season was cancelled, I really would have no problem with it at all.

I agree completely.

This might be a good time for you to take a stab at NHL hockey, Dave.  The Panthers are off to a good start and are showing signs of promise.  There are lots of great games on almost every night

Yeah, I was thinking of catching a game or two of the Panthers, since I'm home a lot with the baby.  I don't really know when the games are or what channel it's on.  I'm sure I could find it, but just haven't had the drive.

Versus, right?

Sun Sports, Versus, NHL Network...all have hockey on at different times. Panthers are usually on Sun Sports though.

I don't consider basketball season officially underway until the playoffs anyway.

I'm enjoying the start the Panthers are off to. It's entertaining to watch them, which is a change from the past couple of years.

I miss hoops a little bit, but I'm hoping for a half season - gives me Celts a much better chance with their oldness and all ;)

Not yet, because games would start in novemner (real ones).  Once the season start date comes, I will miss the NBA terribly.

I'll bet you'll be singing a different tune come the day after the Super Bowl if they cancel the entire NBA season.

^^^ I'll bet you're wrong...I just really don't give a rat's ass about the NBA. When the Super Bowl is done, I'm still watching hockey (as well as some AZ Winter League baseball action.)

Don't miss it. 

As long as it doesn't affect March Madness I don't care. 

Aren't you just as big an NBA junkie as I?  I'm floored by this comment, sir.  Floored!

Nah...I follow the Suns pretty closely, but I've become so disenchanted by the NBA the past few years that I really just don't care about it very much at all any more.

^^^But 'Stroke, how can you not like what's going on in Oklahoma City (other than it should be going on in Seattle)?  How can you not like what Memphis has managed to do?  I am a fan of neither team, but they're exciting.  I'm deeply intrigued by San Antonio/Boston/Dallas/Lakers trying to hold off the young teams (OKC, Memphis, Chicago) in their divisions, the development of the Miami "juggernaut", the rise of New York into a legit team, the improvement (arrival?) of John Wall, the demise of Robert Sarver and renewal of the Phoenix Suns (I had to pique your interest, even if it's with wishful thinking)...

There are a lot of good story lines to whet the NBA appetite.  I'm beginning to miss the NBA now.  Damn, please end this lockout... 

JVides my friend I am with you 100%. Just reading your post made me think more about it than I wanted too. The NBA is my 2nd favorite sport behind Football and the college version just will not quench my appetite for basketball. I do miss the NBA we had no free agency period and we should be in pre-season right now. Come November the season should have started and I will really start missing it even more then. Yeah the NBA really heats up after the beginning of the year but I love catching games at anytime. I will be really pissed if the call the whole thing off and much like the 99 season I hate strike shortened seasons and *champions!!!!!

It's simply a matter of priority. When I break down my "sports I like to follow" rankings, it goes:

NFL
MLB
NHL
College football
College basketball
Dwarf-tossing
Midget Thai Boxing
NBA
Soccer

You may have to point me to the next Dwarf Tossing match to fill up space in my empty NBA schedule!!!!!  ;D

Wow...what happened?

You used to be really into it.

I am:

NFL
NBA
UFC

The other sports, I will watch out of convenience, but don't really care if I miss them.

David "The Weasel from Hell" Stern happened... The suspensions during the Suns-Spurs series happened...lots of crap that made me go "aw, fuck the bozos" happened.

AZ, Don't go bagging on my '99 Spurs now!  They won it fair and square.  It's not their fault other rosters spent the lockout eating twinkies.  That reflects badly on the other teams, not the Spurs.

I knew you would catch that friendly shot I fired your direction!!!!!  ;)

I miss the NBA,  other than being a Fin fan, im also a die hard HEAT fan and was looking forward to this season because the Dolphins are looking like $hit so watching the Heat would have been more appealing to watch.  I want my B-ball dammit  >:D

Can't say I miss the NBA at all.  If they hadn't told me there was a lockout, I wouldn't have known. 

Eventually January would come around and I'd probably wonder why everyone at ESPN isn't on their knees blowing Lebron James, but outside of that, we're more college basketball and pro hockey here.

LMAO!So true,last time I cared about pro basketball M.J. and the Bulls were winning championships.I'm more
college football
NFL
MLB
and a little NHL
although I need to check my local listings for that midget thai boxing

Hopefully I won't have to. Sounds like the season may be saved.

I missed the Knicks being temporarily relevant again. Guess I will just wait another 14 years.

looks like games up until the end of November are cancelled

I miss the NBA- the REAL NBA- Bird, Magic, Michael, Barkley as a 76er, the Pistons Bad Boys, Dominique jumping out of the gym... not this garbage that's on now. I have to admit, I smiled inside a little when the Heat got beat by Dallas. I can't imagine Bird or Magic ever "teaming up" to bully the rest of the league- the whole point of competition is to prove you're better than the other guy, not to team up with him and kill everyone else. -EK

So, can we also assume that you cheered for the Lakers to lose when Shaq teamed up with Kobe? Same for the league-facilitated heist trade to give Kobe an "in his prime" Pau Gasol? I'm sure you raised holy hell when Boston teamed up Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, or when San Antonio tanked an entire season so they could team up David Robinson with Tim Duncan.

Or is it just easier to jump on a Hater bandwagon when there's lots of company?

Inquiring minds want to know! ;)

Quitness couldn't be the man on his own team and succeed.  He knew he had to go to Miami where he wouldn't have to be the man because he's gutless and proved it June.

Nobody is the man on their own.  He took a last place team to the finals on his own and got beat.  I think that's better than most anyone else.

I stopped watching altogether BECAUSE of what Boston did. I grew up on a Celtics team that won because they had a bunch of average guys around Larry Bird, who he made look better than they were, and who worked their asses off to win. ANY combination of "big 3's" is colusion and BS in my book. Does that satisfy your inquiring mind? I went from the BIGGEST Celtic homer to being disgusted by the way they bought their title. -EK

Kobe was drafted June 26, 1996.
Shaq signed with L.A. July 18, 1996.

If you categorize Shaq's signing with the Lakers as "teaming up" with a 17-year-old that had yet to play a single game in the NBA, then I guess that's a fair comparison to the Heat?

I have to agree with EK.  I don't like this collusion of players at all. 

Magic Johnson once said that when he began training for every season, he would look for ways to beat Larry Bird, not join him.

I cannot recall another player off hand who left the team where he was the SuperStar to play 2nd fiddle to another.

Quitness shrinks when it matters most.  He's never faced any hardship in his entire life and it shows.

Offhand:

Clyde Drexler
Charles Barkley
Dikembe Mutombo
Shaq (either with MIA or PHX, depending on how you interpret it)
Karl Malone
Kevin Garnett/Ray Allen (pick one, or both)
Jason Kidd

I think it's fair to say that all of these players are (potential) Hall of Famers.

Clyde Drexler, Chuck Barkley, Karl Malone were all at the end of their careers when they left.  They were trying anything possible to win a ring.  Dikembe Mutombo was never a star of any kind.  Kevin Garnett & Ray Allen played several years for a loser franchise and never sniffed a championship and welcomed leaving those teams after years of futility.  Jason Kidd needed to go where there was a scorer because no one ever brought one to him.  Plus, he was often used as trade bait.  Shaq on the other hand forced is way out of Orlando to be the undisputed king of the Laker franchise.  Only in his final years on his last legs did he migrate to other teams.

Quitness played a few years for a loser franchise, turned it around, and the team gave him everything he could want...and it still wasn't enough.  He made the Cavs a competitive team with his undeniable talent, but lacked the fortitude to see it through.  The Princess does not understand hard work, determination, or sacrifice.  If he ever wins a ring it will be on the coattails of another player.  He is only mentally strong enough to be a second banana, and it showed dramatically in the Finals.

Still, you can't argue that they left teams where they were the #1 star to play second-fiddle on another man's team.

Mutombo is an eight-time All Star and 4x Defensive Player of the Year.  If Dwight Howard qualifies as a superstar today, Mutombo was a superstar back then.

Are you saying that the Cleveland Cavaliers are a significantly better franchise than the Timberwolves or the Sonics?  Did Minnesota not do as much for KG as Cleveland did for LeBron?

If you are going to give Garnett and Allen a pass, this entire argument is moot.  Boston laid the blueprint for conspiracies to team up and get a ring (I would give the '04 Lakers credit for that, but like the '10 Heat, they failed to get the job done).

You mean like Vince Carter?

I thought you were just exaggerating for effect, but if you seriously believe that LeBron is the first NBA player to commit this egregious crime of teaming up with his rivals, that's just crazy.

Still, not one of them was in their prime or even a star when they left.  They were stars in name only if at all.    They were willing to put their ego aside for championship potential.


Mutombo was only a defensive player and never considered anything more than a defensive stopper.  He was also never "The Man" on his team.



No, the T-Wolves and Sonics didn't.  Garnett played for quite some time in Minnesota before the team was so horrible they were force to trade him to get better.  Also, Ray Allen was never a star.  He was just a good scorer, which apparently makes him a super star in your books.



He's the first player of his supposed stature to do this I can think of.  He's supposedly one of the greatest basketball players of all time and he'd rather play second fiddle.  Can you see any other greats of their eras doing that?  Your points are easily dismissed and knocked out to half court.  I should shake my finger at you like Dikembe did.  :P

Jason Kidd's game is to be the 2nd fiddle.  He was never more than a facilitator for another player.  He would be the first to tell you that.

Who was "the man" on Mutombo's Nuggets and Hawks teams?  Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf?  Dale Ellis?  Christian Laettner? Isaiah Rider?

If you think Mutombo is a nobody, these guys rate as sub-nobody.

Agreed that the Sonics did virtually nothing for Allen's entire time there.  Minnesota's front office put about as much food on KG's plate as the Cavs did for LBJ; they brought in Sprewell and Cassell in '03.

Ray Allen compares favorably to Reggie Miller and is one of the best shooters in the history of the game; he is the career 3PT leader and has three of the top five performances of 3PTs made in a single postseason.  I'm not sure why you think he's a scrub or something.

Most of the other greats were pure scorers, and simply needed to be surrounded with role players to do the other stuff.  The most glaring exception is Magic Johnson... who happened to be drafted by a team that already had the man who would be the NBA's all-time leading scorer.  If LBJ had the fortune to be drafted by a team that already had a dominant scorer, I doubt he would have needed to leave.

Why can't LBJ be a Magic-style facilitator?  Why must he be a failure if he's not a Jordan- or Bird-style scorer?

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, this argument again? They're old, tired and recycled words... now get over it. This isn't the first time its happened.


Bless you, sir.

Spidey, your fail arguments are fail.  You have absolutely no concept of what you're saying.  Accept that you got pwned and move on.  Your poorly considered strawman arguments only serve to embarrass your debate's weakness.

Parish and McHale were in no way average players.

Except that Garnett and Allen did not conspire together with Pearce to force trades to Boston.  But whatever.  Clearly, it wasn't nearly has heinous as Quitness' Cleveland situation.

Kobe was nothing when he and Shaq were united, and while clearly San Antonio clearly tanked to get the number one pick-it is not germane to this conversation.

So now you're claiming that three free agents who chose to sign with Miami is somehow worse than Allen and Garnett essentially forcing their teams to trade them?

Perhaps you should stick to bragging about the awesomeness of your arguments instead of, you know, actually trying to support them.

Except, that Allen and Garrett didn't force their teams to trade them to a particular team.  They wanted out because they were in no win situations.

I more than adequately supported my arguments.  You, however, did not.  I think you need to research the topic at hand further.  Your homework:  do it before you spout off.  Bring me a new list of candidates who equal the Quitness himself in 2nd banana land.  Everyone you listed was not a star of his supposed caliber.  Do you even understand what you're arguing for?

And yet the same excuse does not work for LBJ.

Let me see if I can get this straight:

A player who has won the NBA MVP award and made multiple All-NBA First Teams decides that he is tired of the futility and ineptness from the franchise that drafted him straight out of high school.  He decides that he wants to go play with two other peers (all of whom are less than three years apart in age), and assume a lesser role on another man's team for a chance to win a title.

If this man's name is Kevin Garnett, and he is under contract to the Timberwolves (a contract HE agreed to), this is an acceptable move.
If this man's name is LeBron James, and he is a free agent, able to sign anywhere he so chooses... well, NOW we have a problem.

If you want to bash LBJ, at least have the integrity to bash Garnett and Allen at the same time.  All four of them (Allen, Garnett, Bosh, and James) are equally guilty of the crime you accuse James of:  accepting that you cannot lead your team to a title and going to another man's team instead.

Ummm...superstars make it work.  They are the straw that stirs the basketball drink.  Quitness is not that guy and has already proven so.

Name me one person who is supposedly of Quitness' caliber that did this?  So far, you've only come up with some kind of weird equivocation to the Celtics.  (and the players involved did not force their teams to trade them to Boston...so there goes that point, but I'll give it to you again....Garnett's tenure with the T-wolves was filled with overall team mediocrity.  They only made the conference title once and were most often on the cusp of the playoff skirt most years.  Both he and the team wanted a change.

Your strawmen do not stand.

Did Magic force a trade to another team to defer to another?  Did Bird?  Did Jordan?  Did Shaq?  Did Wilt?  Your fail argument is still fail.   You've never even tried to argue the topic at hand.  You'd rather debate another point which has already been proven fallible to begin with.  Go back to school.

I think you're only arguing again for the sole point of arguing.  Your point has already been roundly refuted and you still come back for more.

Ummm...superstars make it work.  They are the straw that stirs the basketball drink.  Quitness is not that guy and has already proven so.

Name me one person who is supposedly of Quitness' caliber that did this?  So far, you've only come up with some kind of weird equivocation to the Celtics.  (and the players involved did not force their teams to trade them to Boston...so there goes that point, but I'll give it to you again....Garnett's tenure with the T-wolves was filled with overall team mediocrity.  They only made the conference title once and were most often on the cusp of the playoff skirt most years.  Both he and the team wanted a change.  Quitness' team was constantly in the mix and actually performed much better than the T-wolves did in the playoffs consistently.  The Cavs did everything they could to keep him and Princess James chose otherwise.  Fair enough...his decision.  And that decision only shows his will to defer to another.

Your strawmen do not stand.

Did Magic force a trade to another team to defer to another?  Did Bird?  Did Jordan?  Did Shaq?  Did Wilt?  Your fail argument is still fail.   You've never even tried to argue the topic at hand.  You'd rather debate another point which has already been proven fallible to begin with.  Go back to school.

I think you're only arguing again for the sole point of arguing.  Your point has already been roundly refuted and you still come back for more.

Free Agents are free agents.  You can sign with whichever team you'd like.  What's the problem?

Kevin Garnett?  I don't know how many times I have to say it.

Or are you falling back on the position that LBJ is simultaneously a quitting loser and a megastar that's far out of Garnett's league?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2387812

Garnett voices complaints as Timberwolves struggle

"I don't want to go through this any more," Garnett said after the Wolves squeaked out a win over the lowly New York Knicks on Sunday. "I think I'm more deserving of a better team and I think the city's more deserving of a better team, coming in here having something that's going to be competitive and having us getting back to the Western Conference finals. But I do know you just can't blink and it's going to happen; you have to actually spend the time and effort. So, we'll see."

[...]

"I've always said I'll be in Minnesota as long as they want me here," he said after the game. "I don't think I can take another one of these rebuilding stages. I've always said that I think I'm worth not only being listened to but I think I'm definitely in a position where I [should] have a team and ... a chance to win a ring. So I think, at the end of the day, they should at least give me that. If it's anything different from that, then it's a discussion we have to talk about."

He said he's not interested in rebuilding and that if he's not in a position where he has "a chance to win a ring," that would need further discussion.

LBJ was a free agent.  He didn't sign a contract and then tell Cleveland's front office what they needed to do to keep him happy.

Magic had a future Hall of Famer on his team from the start and had a front office that immediately acquired more future HOFers.
Same goes for Bird.
Jordan had a competent front office that got him the supporting cast he needed.
Shaq forced a trade from L.A. to Wade's Heat to get away from up-and-coming Kobe.
Wilt Chamberlain?  The man who was traded to a team that had Elgin Baylor and Jerry West?  Please.

If your argument is that LBJ is weak for teaming up with his rivals, I agree.  But in today's league, damn near ALL the top players are trying to do that!  Derrick Rose, last season's MVP, wanted the Miami Big Three to land in Chicago.  Carmelo and Amare did it.  Garnett, Allen, and Pierce did it.  Paul and Howard will be doing it.  So why all the hate for LBJ when you are happy to give Boston's players a pass?

Not ALL the top players are trying to do it. Three teams have done it- Knicks, Heat, Celtics. I've already said that I dispise ALL three of them for doing it. I found it so egregious that I stopped watching basketball altogether. It's the Yankees priciple all over- why do you think so many people hate the Yankees? Why do so many people cheer when they invest tons of money and make outrageous trades to build an all-star team and fail? Buying a team is pointless. The reason so many people hate what the Heat did even more is because at least when Boston did it, they didn't pop off at the mouth giving themselves nicknames (What the f is a Heatle, anyway? Obnoxious!) before they even step on the court.

Let me repeat this- I personally find it reprehensible that ANY team would do this, and that ANY player would take the easy way out- any combination of the "Big Three" in any team doesn't look like integrity, hard work, and greatness. It looks like "I don't have the talent or the work ethic to make my team better; it's difficult and I'm spoiled and want to win now! So rather than learn how to make my team better, I would rather just quit on them and get together with other guys of the same mentality to bully the league." THAT is why when the "Dream Team" Heat started 9-8, fans cheered. It's why when they lost 24 games after half the media was talking about them breaking the 72-10 Bulls record, people cheered. Hard work beats talent. People respect that. They don't respect colusion, bullying, or quitters. I don't think it's any coincidence that LBJ has been labeled a quitter for the way he left Celeveland, and his disappearance in the fourth quarter of games. If you are a quitter your whole career, and you try to remedy that by looking to others for help rather than fixing YOUR own problems, people are going to bitch about it. -EK

I don't know how many times I have to tell you why KG's situation is different from Quitness.  The only similarity between the two was that they were both traded.  KG played for a near perennial cellar dweller and got tired of it as his career was drawing to a close.  He put in his time in Minnesota and no one faults him for leaving a loser franchise with a front office even more clueless office than the Lolphins.  BronBron, on the other hand, forced his way out of a situation where he was the unquestioned leader of a highly competitive perennial playoff team to play somewhere where he wasn't the main focus.  The only person who might be close is Carmello, but who knows what the deal is with his crazy ass. 

EK's right.  Quitness tried to find a shortcut to a championship and when forced to put up or shut up, he completely deferred to other, lesser players in crunch time in the Finals.  When the going got tough, he checked out, which is why he left Cleveland in the first place.  He didn't want to work for it.  He wanted another to do it for him.  It appears it's a pattern for him.  The good news for him is that he's still young and his future is not yet written in stone.

BTW, Wilt was the unquestioned alpha dog of the Laker team he was traded to.  Wilt was always the alpha dog in any situation he was in and the HOF laden team he was traded to knew that.  And Shaq left because he couldn't get along with an egomaniacal Kobe.  He wanted the Lakers to choose between him and his rapist teammate, and Jerry Buss chose to go with a much younger Kobe.  Neither situation was close to what Quitness chose. 

Players force trades all the time.  No one is arguing that.  It's been happening for years.  But no one of Quitness' self proclaimed magnitude ever took the easy way out like that.  It's that cowardice that showed in the Finals. 

I assume you are comparing James (is he Quitness) & Garnett? James wasn't traded.

This is the criticism of LBJ I find most absurd.

You bash him for giving up on being The Man on his own team and going to Wade's team.  Fine.  But then they get to the Finals and you bash LBJ for not taking over the game and winning... isn't that Dwyane Wade's job?  Isn't that the entire reason LBJ went to Miami, and the reason why people bashed him for going there in the first place?  Why are you blaming him instead of Wade?

LBJ has apparently accepted that he's not going to be the next Jordan, and would prefer to be the next Magic.  So why are you criticizing him for not taking over a game like Jordan would?

Possibly because Magic STILL took over games. He did it by involving his team mates more and playing defense. Magic took over by getting triple doubles; LBJ gets those too, but one of his "triple" stats is often turnovers. Oh- and then there's the 42 point game Magic had in the finals his rookie year starting at center instead of point guard. There's a difference between differing to a better player and not showing up at all. Don't compare LBJ to Magic; he couldn't carry Johnson's jock. Or Bird's. Never mind MJ's. Keep in mind everything LBJ does- every single thing- was already done by the three guys I just mentioned in the eighties, and they did it against better competition without resorting to teaming up together. The WORST of those three was Bird, who has 3 rings, 3 straight MVP's, and is probably one of the best two small forwards of all time and a top ten all time player. People can't even agree on whether LBJ is the best player in the league (see Bryant, K.) or even on his team (see Wade, D.). Making any comparison to Magic or Michael is ridiculousness. -EK

Of all Magic's qualities to praise (and there are a lot), his defense is not one of them.  He was not a standout defender and never made an All-Defensive first or second team.  And you can't blame it on the team he was on; as a Laker, Kareem made 6 All-Defensive teams, Michael Cooper made 8, and A.C. Green made one.

All of this is particularly ironic given that LBJ has made the All-Defensive first team the last three years running.  If you want to talk about defense, LBJ is already CLEARLY better at that than Magic ever was.

He didn't have a double-digit turnover game in the entire playoffs this year.  I would hazard a guess that for every one of LBJ's double-digit turnover games (if they even exist), he has at least 10 triple-doubles.

No, LBJ is not as good as three of the five best players in the history of basketball.  Is this some sort of knock on him?

The point is, he is better suited to be a Magic-style player (i.e. facilitator) than a Jordan- or Bird-style player (i.e. scorer).  Is he as good as Magic?  Hell no.  But if he is going to pick a player to try to pattern himself after, Magic is a better choice than Bird.

Their front offices were drafting and trading for HOFers in their primes.  They had no need to "team up."

Furthermore, for the nth time, LBJ is not the only player committing this crime.  Virtually all of today's elite players either a) already colluded to join a team with their buddy or b) are openly colluding with other players to time their free agencies so that they can team up.

So again, why all the hate for LBJ but nothing to say about the rest of his peers?

With the emphasis on "at least" in that sentence... For his career, LBJ has 29 triple-doubles and one 10-turnover game. The 10-turnover game came on March 28, 2005, LBJ's second season. He had 10 turnovers in an overtime 1-point win over New Orleans. He also had 20 of his game-high 44 points in the 4th quarter and OT, when he pretty much put the Cavs on his back.


10-Turnover game:  http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=250328003 (http://ttp://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=250328003)

Triple double list: http://www.sportscity.com/nba/nba-all-time-triple-doubles-181/ (http://www.sportscity.com/nba/nba-all-time-triple-doubles-181/)

Did you ignore the two previous posts I had ripping the other teams who did this? As for the guess about his double digit TO games, in his playoff history he has six triple-doubles and 2 games of 10 turnovers. Let's see.... Not a mathematician, but that's NOT a 10:1 ratio.  Stop with all this LeBron love. NOT every elite player is doing what he did. Dallas didn't do that and they beat the Heat. That should say something. -EK

So, hold on a second.  If Miami had traded for LeBron and Bosh, then it would be OK?  It's only because these players had the audacity to do what they KNEW their front offices would never do for them?  No one in their prime was going to Cleveland to play with LeBron at a discount (like they used to for Chicago and do now for the Lakers).  LeBron did for himself what his front office could not do for him.  He could've stayed and had the honor of a carrer's worth of Antwan Jamison / Mo Williams or he could team up with another top 5 guy and another top 25 guy in Miami and play in 5 championship series.  That doesn't make him weak or a wuss, it makes him a sensible person.

Gladly...about 5 seconds after you stop with all the Lebron-hate.

Not sure where you got your stats, but LBJ has 2 10 TO games in the playoffs ALONE.
May 6, 2008 vs Boston 2-18 from the field, 12 points, 10 TOs
April 25, 2006 vs Washington 7-25 from the field, 26 points, 10 TOs.

-EK

^^^ You already said that two posts ago...I applaud your repetition.

I was looking at regular season games for the stats I posted...and I got my stats by going through each season's game logs on ESPN.

I'm not sure how this whole thing even turned into "I hate/love LBJ." I don't care about LBJ one way or another. I think the NBA sucks because of the BS that the Heat, Celtics, and Knicks did. The WHOLE NBA. The integrity of the game is shit because of it. For some reason, even after I keep posting that, people want to focus in on the "Heat" part of the equation. Believe whatever you want. The entire league isn't doing this stuff. 3/30 teams is not the entire league; it's 10%. You know what the entire league IS doing? Well, listen up. The reason there is no season right now is the same reason I hate watching it anymore. The greedy ass players believe that they "deserve" more than 50% of the profits. WTF? How much money do these guys need to make? Selfish, self-absorbed, arrogant, whining twenty year old toddlers. Any member of this board who disagrees with that- go to your job, tell the boss you demand half of the company's profits and see how that works out for you. 10% of this country can't get a job and these guys are bitching about getting even MORE money that most of us will make in our lifetime. And I'm supposed to miss this sport and feel like my life is somehow emptier without it? -EK

So for his career, he has 29 triple-doubles and a whopping THREE double-digit turnover games.  You're right, 29:3 is not even close to 10:1.

And for the record: you said (emphasis added), "Magic took over by getting triple doubles; LBJ gets those too, but one of his "triple" stats is often turnovers."  In the three games in which LBJ had double-digit TOs, he has NEVER had a triple-double, even if you include turnovers.

So basically, your statement that one of his triple-double stats is "often" turnovers is an out-and-out falsehood.  It has LITERALLY NEVER HAPPENED.

The majority of the elite players in the league are either doing it, planning to do it, or talking about how they'd like to do it.

So your problem with the NBA is that... the owners aren't making enough money?

I'm guessing that almost every employed member of this board would be free to quit their current job (at any time) and be hired by another employer willing to pay them more money.  Gee, I wonder what would happen if an NBA player tried that?

Please do not try to compare the jobs of everyday citizens to those of professional athletes.  As discouraging as it may be to hear, your skillset is not in the top 0.0000001% of the world at what you do, and you aren't personally generating tens of millions of dollars of income for your company.

It literally was hyperbole. I realize that it is hard to distinguish sarcasm in print. If it eases your mind, I will happily say that I mispoke. It STILL doesn't change my point of view on what these three teams did. Are you so fixated on one tree that you are unable to see any of the rest of the forrest? I seriously don't care one way or another about Lebron; I was laughing just as hard at Wade and Bosh when Dallas beat them. I was laughing just as hard when the Knicks failed to trade for Chris Paul (rats! foiled their big three!), and when the Celtics got bumped in the playoffs this year, although since it was the Miami Cheat that swept them, that one was bittersweet.

In response to your last post, NO the majority are not. Believe whatever you need to get sleep at night. They're not. 3/30.....3/30. Regarding my "skill-set"? Really? You know nothing about me. I'm premed and will make low to middle six figures with my "skill-set." I'm also a three time national powerlifting champion with a documented drug-free bench press of 420 pounds at a body weight of 143, and 370 at a body weight of 132. I know plenty about athletes, thanks. -EK

Hey folks.  You need to know your shit before you try to correct someone else. 

Both Quitness and Bosh were traded to Miami.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/418470-lebron-james-miami-gave-up-to-much-to-sign-lebron-to-the-team
http://www.scoresreport.com/2010/06/30/report-chris-bosh-traded-to-miami/

Both were free agents, however, they were both signed by their old teams and traded to Miami in sign & trade deals.  Not only could they sign for more money under the Larry Bird rule, but their former teams would at least get something back in return instead of losing them outright as free agents.  The NBA has/had wacky CBA rules where crazy stuff like this happens.

As for the rest of it:

My original contention was that Quitness showed his weakness in forcing the trade and then the weakness was shown again in the Finals where he was too afraid to shoot or drive in the 4th quarter.  Frankly, the evidence rests on my side.  We all saw him pass up wide open shot after wide open shot.  Hell, entire post game and analysis shows were devoted to "what happened to Lebron."  The Mavs and Deshaun Stevenson got into his head, rattled his cage and made him afraid to take action.  His character flaw that first showed in the collusion to go to Miami reared its head again when it mattered most in the Finals.  He couldn't take the "Heat" in any either scenario and ran away to hide in Wade's shadow.

Supposed all time greats do not act this way.

Your point is technically true but functionally irrelevant, in the same sense that I could claim that LeBron technically didn't choose to go to Miami at all... he just went where Cleveland traded him.

At the end of the day, for all practical purposes of this discussion, LBJ, Bosh, Garnett, Allen, Amare, and Carmelo all chose to team up with erstwhile rivals to get a ring.  Quibbling over the precise legal mechanisms of how they did it doesn't really change anything.

It's not his team, remember?

How can you criticize him for wimping out and going to another team to be a second-fiddle, and then criticize him for being a second-fiddle?

The Heat were supposed to be Wade's team.  Where was Wade at?  Why did LBJ outscore Wade in the elimination game?  All of your vitriol should be directed towards the man who was supposed to lead the team.

He's not going to be a scorer that takes over games.  He already admitted as much when he went to Miami to take the role of facilitator.  So why are you still bashing him for not being a scorer that takes over games?

Because facts matter.  More than one person in this thread tried to correct me, including yourself, I believe. 



His team wanted and needed him to step up and score points like he did in the first half.  In the 2nd half, he just stropped trying in several games of the series.  A champion does what's needed.  Quitness did not.  Wade is responsible also, of course, but at least he showed heart and determination throughout the entire series.  Plus, as someone who already has a championship in his pocket, Wade at least has shown that he is not afraid of crunch time. 

It's so rare that you see someone who lives his life in the spotlight, flat out shrink away from that light when it burns the brightest...but we all saw what happened and it will be his legacy until he can prove otherwise.

OK, so since facts are what matter:  LeBron didn't actually choose where to go at all, and merely reported to the team that he was traded to.  Your entire line of argument is nullified.  Q.E.D.

I mean, if you want to play the nitpicking game.

He's not a scorer.  That's why he's in Miami, remember?

I find it amazing that people want to pile on LBJ for not doing Wade's job, and yet you rarely, if ever, hear any criticism of Wade for his no-show (for his role) in the series.

Awesome.  So you have just confirmed two things:

1) you are not currently in the top 0.0000001% of your profession
2) you will not generate tens of millions of dollars per year for your employer

So what possible relevance does your current or future job (plans) have to that of an elite pro athlete with a multimillion dollar skillset?  Why should he approach his career decisions in the same way as someone making less than 10% of his salary?

Cool story, bro.  Unless you were making seven figures in this endeavor, it is mightily irrelevant to the discussion.

You might be the most judgemental AND hypocritical person I've ever met. It's ok for you to blatantly attack me, but god forbid someone attacks LeBron or you go nuts. What's your hard-on for this guy all about? You have NO IDEA whether I'm in the top whatever percent or HOW MUCH I may generate. Your entire statement was about how I can't compare myself to "elite" athletes, or how I'm not in whatever percent based on my "skill-set." You were wrong on both accounts, and when I showed that you decide it's somehow irrelevant? Tell you what- why bother having a forum at all? Why not just set up posts on your own so we can all learn from your greatness, and you can just tell us what to think? -EK

Oh, before I did not; I was guessing.  Then you confirmed it.

You just said you are premed.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but that means that you aren't a doctor yet.  So what is your profession right now... student?  Intern?  Whatever it is, it's nothing remotely close to an NBA player.

You then went on to say that you expect to make "low to middle six-figures."  Presuming that you actually achieve that, that's less than 1/10th of the average NBA salary.  Among doctors worldwide, I think it's fair to say that "low to middle six figures" is not someone that's even in the top 1%.  And even top 1% is commonplace compared to NBA-level ability.

So based solely on the information you have provided, you have confirmed that neither your skillset nor your expected income are anywhere near those of an NBA player.  Which is fine; neither are mine.  But I'm not the one running around telling NBA players that they should be grateful to have a job in this economy, or telling them that they have enough money already.  They can and should negotiate for as much money as they can, just as the owners do.

I'm confused- for three years I was the BEST in the entire country and top ten in the WORLD for at my weight class in a recognized sport. How does that "skillset" (stupid, obnoxious buzz-word, btw) NOT qualify me to understand or compare myself to an NBA player? Money aside- because you still have no idea if something I research or work on as may generate five cents or five billion dollars- I was responding to the comment you made, "your skillset is not in the top 0.0000001%" Let's see- world population just hit 7 billion. How man people do you know that can bench press right at three times their body weight, without the use of PED's? Probably less than the 450 players active for the NBA at any one time. I think that more than fits your criteria. -EK

Sorry, I was unclear.  When I'm talking about "skillsets" (in the context of NBA labor), I'm talking about professional skillsets; i.e. those used to make a living.  You might be really good at powerlifting... or frisbee golf... or Call of Duty.  You may even be a world champion.  Nothing wrong with that, and more power to you.

But that is not remotely the same thing as being in the top 0.0000001% with a skill that generates multimillions of dollars.  Sorry, it just isn't.  So your perspective (as an athlete) is not remotely comparable to that of an NBA player, and bears less similarity to the types of career decisions that an NBA player has to make than, say, Warren Buffett.

Sure Lebron told the team where to trade him, but hey, don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.  It's never stopped you before.

Spidey has been arguing for the sake of argument for a couple of pages now as is his M.O.  This thread has become extremely tedious and tiresome, and I'm going to take my talents to South Beach with Lebron. >:D

You're the one that's insisting on this absurd equivalency.  If you are going to strictly read the letter of record, the facts are that Cleveland chose to trade a player that they had under contract.

Does such a summary reflect the practical reality of the situation?  No, but neither does, "Both LBJ and Garnett were traded."  LBJ was a free-agent who participated in a sign-and-trade, which bears very little resemblance to a player being traded mid-contract.

Even if your perspective is completely accurate- and I don't agree that it is- my POV is closer to a "professional athletes" than yours is, so you have no business discounting my opinion on the matter or acting as if I have no validity on it at all. I have no clue why you keep ignoring the "big picture" of my point to narrow in on one aspect. The entire debate was whether or not I agreed with Boston doing what the Heat did, and when I said "No, I think ANYONE doing it is wrong," you somehow still fixated on an LBJ argument, of which I have no desire to debate. You further degraded the conversation into a personal attack on me by somehow invalidating my opinion on the matter because I don't make XX number of dollars or am not a professional athlete. News flash- you're not either, but I've never said that disqualifies you from having an opinion on it. Just because you disagree with me doesn't mean I'm wrong. -EK

Again, unless you earned a living doing it, your experience is less relevant than that of, say, a professional Starcraft player.

Pro athletes are paid entertainers, in a field that grosses billions of entertainment dollars.  You don't have any professional standing to give them career advice, no matter how you spent your free time.

Sorry, but you are the one that turned the discussion towards the occupations of the posters in this thread, when you said:

If you want to compare NBA players' career choices to those of "members of this board," then don't act all outraged when I compare them to... members of this board.

That's the most ridiculous logic I've ever heard. Because I didn't play, I can't have an opinion? Sports writers who never played make a living having and publishing their opinions on these matters. Are all of their opinions invalid too? YOU didn't play; does that make your opinion invalid? I have literally spent years working in strength and conditioning with pro athletes- both NBa and a current NFL lineman. I'm not average Joe outsider looking in; I DO actually have some firsthand insight with these guys (at least as much as some sports writers) so explain how my OPINION on this stuff (other than because you disagree with it) is invalid? -EK

For the third time, I'm not saying you can't have an opinion.

YOU are saying that based on the everyday job experiences of MEMBERS OF THIS BOARD, NBA players should just accept whatever the owners are offering.  I am saying that the career decisions of the middle-class members of this board have nothing in common with the career decisions of multimillionaire professional athletes.  And any "criticism" I've offered of your particular situation is only to the extent that you are clearly not a multimillionaire professional athlete, nor do you appear to be headed in that direction (based on your stated career path).

So any references to "walk into your bosses office and ask him for [xyz]" are irrelevant, because the relationship between you and your boss is vastly different than between the NBA players' union and the owners.

It's not though. No matter how you wish to twist it or how often you insist on it, it's not different, and it's elitist to believe it is. Because some people make less or more money, they should get special privedges or have a different set of rights? Apparently NOT because when the players said we deserve more, the owners promptly said, "no you don't- and we can solve the whole thing. LOCKOUT." Whatever the previous agreement was worked for the entire time it was in place; it is the players' greed that has caused them to be locked out. It's the EXACT same thing as a member of this board doing the same with his or her boss. Both are greedy and ridiculous, and both end up with the employee having no job. How is that different? If it was even remotely different- in the slightest way- there would be no lockout and we would have no thread here. -EK

Um, yes.  I'm presuming you've held a job before, so you should be familiar with the concept that in higher paying jobs, you get all sorts of benefits (like vacation time, retirement plans, stock options, etc.) that you don't get in lower paying jobs.

Comparing an NBA player's job (and career choices) to that of a construction worker, bank teller, or any other middle-class citizen is absurd.

Do you even know what a lockout is?

A lockout is when the OWNERS (<--- this part is important) decide that THEY do not want to abide by the current contracts in place.  The players don't want MORE; they want exactly what they have already been getting.  If they players want more and the owners disagree, the players' option would be to strike, which is the opposite of what is currently happening.

It would help if you didn't have the current scenario entirely backward.

That's not at all what is happening as I understand it. Correct me where I'm mistaken. The old agreement expired. The owners voted not to extend it into 2011-2012. The league has lost 400 MILLION dollars and has to restructure a new deal going forward. The players had previously been getting 57% of profits, while the league was losing money. Stay with me here- there's NO agreement at this point. The owners propose to have an even 50/50 split of the revenue, which the players decline, and this they are locked out. Where did I mess up there? There was no "current contract." The previous contract was no longer in effect. -EK

The players have contracts; Miami's Big Three obviously didn't sign 1-year-deals.

The owners do not wish to honor the existing contracts in effect.  Therefore, they lock the players out.

The expiration of the CBA does not immediately mean that all existing contracts are somehow voided.  If that were the case, every player would now be a free agent, free to sign with whichever team they like upon the ratification of a new CBA.

When players are not happy with current conditions, their recourse is to strike (see: 1994 MLB strike).  When owners are not happy with current conditions, their recourse is to enact a lockout (see: 2011 NFL lockout).  The current NBA work stoppage was initiated by the OWNERS, not the players.

Now, you could take the position that regardless of it's a strike or a lockout, it's always the players' fault.  But unless you're willing to acknowledge that, it's silly to rest the blame for a lockout at the feet of the players.  They only want to continue forward with the arrangements as they are/were.

The owners have no problem with the current contracts. No one looked at the big 3 and said, "your contract won't be paid." The existing contracts are not what is being disputed and not what I mentioned. The lockout is not about the current individual player contracts. The players have a union, so a topic like this isn't likely to ever come up. It's about the CBA, which expired. There was no agreement broken by the owners because there was no agreement to break. Why are you even bringing up individual contracts? No one said anything about them. The reduction in salary was not pertinent to individual contracts it was part of the 7% swing in profits. How short-sighted and greedy do you have to be to balk at 50% of the profits your company makes instead of 57% when the difference to owners means staying in business? If the league continues losing 400 million plus dollars annually because they succumb to the players wanting the extra profit, and the league has to declare bankruptcy, do the players really win? -EK

^^^EKnight, this lockout IS about current player contracts, in the context that the expired system has allowed for non-marquee players (see Lewis, Rashard) to make "max player" contracts.  You don't think the Magic regretted giving him max money to sit at the three point line and clank jumpers the past few years (then traded him to the Wizards, who have seen more of the same)?  The league is full of grossly overpaid non-star players, and owners don't like it.  I don't think many owners would balk at giving LeBron James even $40 M a year; he's the league's top draw!  However, giving Marvin Williams $7.5 M?  Baron Davis $13.9 M?  Al Harrington $6.2 M?  $11M for Hedo Turkoglu?  The owners want to push the reset button on these contracts (the trees) as part of the larger goal of gaining profitability (the forest).

Absolutely, BUT...they have the right to do so, as they own the company (team), and the system expired. -EK

They are locking players out to keep from paying them.

Their contracts are not being paid as we speak.

So then, is it safe to presume that you believe if there is a lockout, it's the players' fault, and if there's a strike, it's also the players' fault?

You state that the NBA is losing $400 million per year (the figure offered by the owners) as if it is incontrovertible fact.  Other independent analysis (link (http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/calling-foul-on-n-b-a-s-claims-of-financial-distress/)) indicates that as a whole, the league has made a consistent profit since the last lockout; the reason why teams benefit unevenly is because of the lack of (sufficient) revenue sharing between the teams.

So now the players are in a position where they are being asked to take less money because the owners of the Lakers, Bulls, and Knicks don't want to share more revenue with the owners of the Raptors, Bobcats, and Kings.  Why should the players care more about the welfare of failing teams more than the other owners do?  NBA player salaries, as a % of total revenue, are already right in line with those in the other major pro sports.

Put rather simply, if you are going to accept every argument the league throws out unskeptically, and insist that no matter the nature of the work stoppage (lockout or strike), it's the players who are at fault and should capitulate, then there is no point in trying to convince you that the players have a valid concern.  I strongly suggest that you read the article I linked for a more independent analysis of the lockout.

What's the NBA? Sounds familiar.  >:D

National Braille Association

When closing up is the owners' cheapest option, it kind of eats away at the players' leverage. 

Plus the guys that own these teams have more money than God.  Do you really think Kobe or LeBron can out-wait Mark Cuban?  Give me a break. 

This is 99% of their negotiating strategy.  The owners know that outside of the mega/superstars, the rest of the players cannot withstand a prolonged lockout.  The owners were prepared to not play this season long before it even was to begin.  The owners know that most players need to play in order to support their baby mammas, entourages, drug habits, etc.

I hate to sound so simplistic, but I really think this is exactly what's going on.  They're willing to forgo one lost season for long term gain.

Are the players?  For the majority of them, I don't think so.

Several players- including Kobe- have said they would have taken the 50/50 split, but the players' union, or whatever it is now that they have decertified insisted on this pissing contest. Dumb, dumb, dumb! -EK

The players are probably making a mistake and ultimatley hurting themselves at this point.  The 50/50 deal is probably as good as they're going to get.  If they keep at this, they'll lose an entire season of pay for a deal that's probably similar next year.

"Nothing But Actors" -- Shaq

Thankfully, I'm not going to have to.