The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Brandon Marshall...

Yes, I know more than most that stats can be manipulated using methodology which suits the personal opinion of the swinging dick compiling the stats.

HOWEVER......take the last game or 2 and look at a comparison of Marshall and Hartline. Forget the fact Hartline had no pre-season and oh yeah, forget the fact the Fins have a QB who has played 2 games in the NFL. Forget the fact Cutler is considered an elite QB and has a history with Marshall and also keep in mind the Bears have a better defense which puts less pressure on the offense to score.

All that said, are you ready???

Dropped passes:

Hartline: 0

Marshall: 3, one a potential winner in the endzone.

Questions???

Could be better than Marshall....am anticipating Hartline to out gain Marshall this season.....all for around 1/3 of that premadonnas salary!

I would have bet that Bess would emerge as Tanny's security blanket, but keep in mind a big part of JP's philosophy is to find and exploit the weakness of the defense. They did that today. The Raiders replaced one 3rd stringer for another at L CB.

Hartline was spectacular today. I don't think he is a #1 WR but I do think he can be a solid #2. In next offseason if Miami can keep Hartline and bring in a big stud WR to play opposite him I think a WR corp of that FA, Hartline, Bess is a nice little tandem. And in this league and with Miami having close to $60 mill to spend I am not against bringing in 2 FA WR's. Maybe a big-named stud guy and another lesser guy.

Use the draft to replenish the defense.

But that is a different issue for a different day

Hartline making 1.38 million this season.....still early, but would resigning him now, hopefully at a bargain,
price not be a bad idea?

Same goes for Bush...at 4.5 million also a bargain, considering he's 2nd or 3 rd in the league in rushing.

Did I not tell ya'll to have a little faith in Hartline? And don't sleep on Armstrong either. If he learns the offense and gets healthy, Hartline, Armstrong and Bess will be the most underated WR corps in the NFL.

I've always been a fan of Hartline and thought he was a Welker replacement. Please keep him and add a #1 WR.

No to both. It's just one game let's see how both hold up through the next 14 games.

I would love to see a wr and a solid TE I think that would really be special.  Hartline has always been able to do what he did today.  I've said in the past that Matt Moore didn't look his way enough when we had Marshall...Tannehill does make that long comeback route throw very nicely!  I haven't seen a QB that could throw that for us since Marino.

I wouldn't count on Hartline racking up numbers like that every week.  Defenses should be able to stop that comeback to the QB pretty easily once they've seen it.  Given that there is no speed to worry about from the WR position, I expect corners to play a lot of bump and run.

I'll give Hartline credit for having a career day, but we shouldn't be expecting him to consistently have those kinds of numbers.

Totally agree. The CB's that were covering BH yesterday (they switched twice) were both backups according to the announcers. Philbin said his philosophy was to identify and exploit weaknesses and that is what he did yesterday. Next week it could be Bess. 

No I don't expect it to happen every week either, but doing it once does force teams to adjust and that opens things up for other guys. They were single covering Hartline the whole game and Hartline made them pay, that's what he's supposed to do. I expect that Hartline will see a little more coverage rolled his way next week and that will free up Bess or Fasano a bit. That doesn't make Hartline's big day any less important, it was HUGE.

Hartline won't do this every week. Teams will start to key on Hartline. But if they do that it should open up things for Fassano, Bess, and which ever other WR is on the field.

Hartline if he did anything yesterday is at least he gave opponents something to worry about. Not like worrying about Calvin, Fitz, Andre, or AJ Green but at least its something.

With what Hartline did yesterday it should open up more for him as well!  He should be able to use some dbl moves and get behind some guys because they have to respect the comeback/out route.  He got behind guys last year but wasn't targeted on most of those routes.  We need someone else to make some plays because they will start to roll coverage towards Hartline to take him away.  If Armstrong can stretch the field it will really make things go because you'll have to keep someone over top and with Bess or Fasano roaming underneath it could make for some nice offense.

See what he does next week against a much better secondary.  Then we can start talking contracts and Marshall comparisons

Have always hated Hartline and 1 good week will not change that...


Don't see that happening by any stretch of the imagination. However if both players stay healthy and Hartline outgains Marshall I will send you $100.00 and never say another negative thing about him.  ;D

^^ Big words...  What if Hartline has more catches than Marshall?

What if it gets normalized by salary?  If they're even in the same ballpark in yards, and Marshall's salary is 4-5x Hartline's, isn't that better?

^^^^^If both are healthy and he out gains Marshall in yardage I will in fact pay the money. I would never state something like that if I didn't have the balls to back it up. I don't care about the contracts or the catches....I was referring to his out gaining Marshall comment. Bookmark this for refernece after the season if I lose I will send the man $100.00. That is how confident I am that will never happen.  ;D

I don't doubt that you will...  However, from a football perspective, if you can have a guy that gets 87 catches for 1400 yards and costs 16million bucks, or a guy that gets 79 balls for 1320 yards and makes 3.5 million...  What's the better bang for the buck?

^^^^Clearly the gentleman that makes 3.5 million is by far the greater bang for you buck.

I have stated this before though....I hate Brian Hartline.....I am very biased against him I admit it. I don't see him having a 1000 yard season. I hope like hell he does, I hope he proves me wrong and goes for 1600 yards and 12 touches.....I just don't see it. Everyone is all up on him because he had a big game and even I cheered for him this weekend. I just don't think he can do it consitently enough to be considered a true #1 wideout in this league. Time will tell as I want to like him, I really do....but you know how it goes there is alwasy one player you just don't care for.

Wow!  Probably a long shot, but I'll keep rooting for the Fins and Hartline and smile as the Bears with their 2 premadonnas (Cutler and Marshall) implode.

By the way:

Hartine >    161yds

Marshall >   143yds

 ;D

Hartline had great game against a very weak defender, and should do well in Philbin's short-passing offense, but let's not get nuts. At best he is a possession receiver. He gets absolutely NO YAC. Like, zero. And those short out routes are pretty dangerous. I HATE hearing about Darelle Revis all the time, but if he suits up this week Hartline might have 2 catches for negative yards, and if they try throwing him one of those short outs it's 50-50 Revis doesn't take it to the house for a Pick 6. Every team in the League has seen this now, and if the Miami Coaches keep trying that without introducing a wrinkle or two it's simply not going to work all year long. This is frankly where we see just how smart the Coaches are.

Anyone who prefers Hartline to Brandon Marshall is foolish. Even with the occasional drops Marshall's got twice the potential. I also remember Marshall pulling in a long TD pass last year with the DB dragging him down by his neck.

We still need a true #1 or a legitimate Deep Threat or the team goes nowhere.

This is one of those few times that I disagree with AZ but I think Hartline is pretty good for what he does.

Oh yes about Marshall's potential .... potential has never accomplished anything. You have to use it. I know many with potential who never accomplished a thing.

While I agree Hartline typically catches balls that result in little to no gain afterward, he averages over 13 yards per catch. Since when is that a short route?

Did we find EK's new message board handle? LOL Occasional drop??!! LOL, dude is like 1st or 2nd in the league when it comes to drops the past few years.

Give me Hartline every day of the week. Maybe Marshall has more physical tools but at least Hartline tries and doesn't trash his teammates and coaching staff. Nor does he get arrested like 5 times a year or are involved with the cops in some way shape or form constantly.

LOL I was fully aware of that when I made that statement. Still a lot of football left this year and Marhsall had a terrible week last week. I will be keeping an eye on this as I am sure you will as well!!!!!  ;D

Sorry CF that is not allowed....you must agree with everything.....all the time!!!!!  ;)

Hartline is excellent at what he does. Would be a great compliment to a #1 Receiver. But fact is Dolphins need a true #1 or a deep threat. Hartline is neither.

I'm going to get ripped for this...and Hijack it with a baseball reference...(returning back from a rah,rah speech from my boss  :D)

Marshall is that guy that with a man on second down by 1,in the 9th with 1 out....Swinging at everything,trying to knock the ball back to the factory it where it was made...Makes a non productive out......At the end of the year you flip over their trading card,they've hit 30 hr's and drove in 100 RBI's...but you remember all those failures,and rarely remember one of his "Clutch" moments.It's just the way I see Brandon Marshall now...

I'm sorry, I'm done talking about Brandon Marshall...He's a Bear,He aint comin' back.I'd rather focus on who's here,and this team....Here's hoping to Bess,Hartline,Fasano have more Clutch moments for us this year.....

Totally agree! Marshall is a clown and glad he is gone!

Sounds like you just described Hanley Ramirez...

(Sorry, AZ)

Now you're going after my baseball team huh? LOL  ;)

Say whatever you want, but last year, Hartline dropped a higher percentage of balls than Marshall did. Of course Marshall had more drops, because he got targeted twice as many times. You can't argue with the numbers- they're absolute:

Hartline- 42 catchable balls, 7 drops (16.67%)
Marshall- 95 catchable balls, 14 drops (14.74%)

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/17/drop-rate-2011-which-receivers-are-dropping-the-ball/

Love to hear the Marshall haters respond to this.

After 3 games THIS year, Marshall is ahead in yards, receptions, and TDs, as he should be. -EK

Good to see you again EK. We missed you last week. LOL

I kept quiet about the Jets game, so as not to be acused of being "Fireman EK." No real surprises. 4th quarter lead blown yet again; only Miami could lead a game for all but three minutes and still find a way to lose it. After three games, Tannehill is the lowest rated starting QB in the NFL with at least 2 starts (which I didn't think was possible after Cutler's second game). Sparano still fist pumping for Carpenter, just from a different bench this time. Everyone finds fault with the coaches, the play-calling, etc., but the fact is, the talent on the field flat sucks. It's 2012, and Miami has been "rebuilding" for two decades. -EK

And Marshall dropped another couple yesterday....One went off his hands and got Cutler picked...Wah,Wah,Wah...He's a Bear now...Not our Problem thankfully...

No he didn't. Still listed at 2, just like last week:

http://stats.washingtonpost.com/fb/leaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232

-EK

^^ I watched the game...The weeks not over,it might not be updated yet....
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap2000000064763/Rams-vs-Bears-highlights (http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/0ap2000000064763/Rams-vs-Bears-highlights)
25 secs into the highlights......hit's him pops right up...

You also kept rather quiet after a Dolphins win when there wasn't much to be negative about, but the minute the game was over and Miami lost you were posting negative comments again. I suppose it could just be coincidence, but it sure seems you're more interested in posting negative comments rather than positive ones. I'm OK with that, that's your right, just an observation on my part.

I included Tannehill's performance from week 2 in listing him as the worst starting QB in football. "the minute the game was over and Miami lost you were posting negative comments again." is a little skewed. I made no posts after the Jets game. This thread about Marshall is the first one I've said anything in, and I purposefully stayed OUT of either of the Jets threads, but let's not sugar coat things- call a spade a spade. Miami lacks talent at every healthy position on the field, IMO, and their play shows it.

That's really beside the point though. I commented here to point out that Hartline actually drops a higher % of balls thrown to him, and the numbers back that up. No one seems to have any repsonse to that, though, because it would buck the conventional wisdom of the board as a whole. #shocker. -EK

It doesn't change the fact that over the last 3 years Marshall is #10 in the league of highest PERCENTAGE of dropped passes (of those that have over 125 "catchable" passes). I'm not sure if Hartline didn't qualify for the list or just isn't in the top 15 of the list (I'm not a member of PFF and don't care to be one). This is of course only ProFootballFocus' numbers since this isn't an official stat and then there's the fact that Marshall was getting paid quite well for dropping all those passes whereas Hartline is cheap comparatively speaking, but NONE of that is important to you I'm sure despite the fact that's the main reason that most of us were glad to see him leave. It would be REALLY interesting to see a rating of percentage of dropped passes to salary for the last 3 years, my money would be on Marshall for the lead in that ranking. :)

Mine wouldn't be, but that's ok. You're either missing my bigger point or (more likely) I did a poor job of presenting it. Let me rephrase- multiple people cried and moaned the whole time Marshall was in Miami because of the drops, and were soooooo happy to have him gone, then a ridiculous thread like this is started (and let's be for real- comparing a multi time pro bowl WR to anyone on the Phins roster = silliness), but the truth is, at least last year, Hartline on the field WAS Marshall, just without the catches, yards, and TDs. What's that leave? His higher % of drops. If you're going to blast one guy for dropping the ball, at least be consistent- Hartline is no better and last year was worse. -EK

Hartline having a nice day...@ 165yds so far!

Make that 245 yards after that big touchdown catch.  A team record.

This guy is a gamer period!  Against arguably one of the better defences in the NFL!

Marshall has some work to do!

Hartline might have a bigger day when we play Indy and he gets to line up against Vontae! lol lol

Hate to quote myself but I've said Hartline can get behind people and he proved that today...  I kept saying our QB's didn't target him enough!  We need someone to step up on the other side... Bess had a good game but would be even more deadly if we had another decent outside receiver.

I think Hartline may have silenced some of the doubters today, who said he's not a true #1.  I think he showed he's as good as many #1 WR's in the league today.

He may not have the jukes and moves, but he's got excellent hands and amazing heart and fortitude (both things Brandon Marshall lacks).

I think he will continue to step up and be a stud of this team for the rest of the season.

And for once, he didn't fall down immediately after catching a ball!   :P

He's had two phenomenal games this season that are starting to make me come around on him.  I'm starting to think of him like he's Herbie the Love Bug going against all the big time race cars and beating them anyway.

He has a mental toughness and a never say die/don't quit attitude that Marshall doesn't have.

Marshall may have more physical qualities when you compare them on paper, but I would rather have the guy with the bigger heart and the better attitude (and less arrests).  Games aren't played on paper!

Brian Hartline is currently leading the NFL in receiving yards.

1. Brian Hartline - MIA 455
2. A.J. Green - CIN 428
3. Calvin Johnson - DET 423
4. Roddy White - ATL 413
5. Victor Cruz - NYG 388

I'm not taking anything away from Hartline, but where was the coverage on the 80 yarder? How do you let a guy get THAT open when he's already having the kind of day he was? There didn't seem to be anyone within five yards of him. -EK

I don't think there was anyone within 20 yards of him when he caught that ball.  The Cards were in a zone and failed to adjust for his long crossing pattern.  The only time a receiver has been more wide open is in pregame warm ups.

OK so that wasn't just me then? I didn't want to be accused of further being a hater. -EK

I am more than happy to be wrong about Hartline. I hope he plays lights out like this for the remainder of the season. He impressed the hell out of me yesterday.

So Hartline gets open against a zone defense and it is a knock on Hartline? The play doesn't count or something?

Just give the Fins credit. Right play called at the right time against the right defense. Hartline made a play. That's it!

Watch the play again - it was the best play action fake I've seen in a while.  Looked like the defense bit on it, as did the camera man, me (personally) and Reggie sold the fake amazingly. I could see how the safety would step up after seeing that fake and forget all about Hartline.  Credit to both Reggie and Tannehill for breaking that play.

At least Hartline didn't run out of bounds in the open field like Marshall did last year vs the Jets on MNF! lol

Who is this comment aimed at? No one WASN'T giving him credit. "How do you let a guy get THAT open when he's already having the kind of day he was?" <-- pretty clearly acknowledges that he was ALREADY having a career day. Looking to start an argument with anything that says otherwise. -EK

There were a lot, and I mean a lot of Dolphins fans in the stadium yesterday......we went ape shit crazy on this play.

That happens to every receiver in the league and a lot of that is the route you run. Busted coverage is the BEST type of way to get open. The play is designed to make defenders have to guess who is covering whom. If you watch the replay Hartline and another reciever (not sure who it was) cross paths down field and both defenders cover the other receiver leaving Hartline uncovered. That's partly poor defense, but it's also excellent play design and route running by Hartline and the other receiver.

Yes, as Fin fans we have seen this happen over and over again, just not when we are on offense. lol

I agree. Still trying to figure out how I "knocked" on the guy. There's busted coverage in every game, but not 80 yard play busted coverage. That was great speed by Hartline, and a good read by RT to find the open guy. Nonetheless, I'm not sure I've seen a guy go downfield that far untouched or with no one near him in quite a while. -EK

They kept showing green and orange in the stands.  I was impressed.

On pace for 1,820 yards.  if this continues I'm nicknaming him Brian Statline

And a nice pass by RT too. How many times have you seen a guy that wide open in the last 10 years only to see the ball thrown out of reach or 10 yards too short so the WR has to slow down and that allows the defense to recover. This ball hits Hartline right in stride so that he can immediately turn up field. That's the type of throw you expect out of QB's, but sadly it's been since Marino since we've had one that can do it.

^^This. I know I am low on RT, but he made some very clutch throws yesterday. -EK

Also we are running a professional NFL offense not some rinky dink Dan Henning or Brian Daboll crap. This is a proven offense that works. The fact Tanny has experience running it in college is only a plus. This offense has a proven track record.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving

Hold on just a sec. How in the world is Hartline credited with 20 yards after the catch? Didn't he just get about 40 on that one play?

I mentioned it a couple times to my friends while watching the game. I had no idea they were that popular out there.

Currently

Hartline: 25 receptions, 455 yards, 1 TD, 1 drop
Marshall: 23 receptions 352 yards, 2 TDs, 2 drops

Will be surprised if it finishes this way in terms of yards, but predict that Hartline ends up with more TDs by the end of the year. -EK

I watched Marshall last night and while I don't like talking about him, I thought he showed a lot more effort last night than he did the entire time he was in Miami. Maybe because it was Monday night. Don't know, but that is not the same guy who played in Miami.

P.S. I watched the game on TV as I DVR'ed it and they showed me twice!!!!!  :)


I went to my first Dolphins/Cardinals game here in AZ in 1996. I was shocked to see how many Dolphins fans there were in that place because I don't see to many people wearing Dolphins gear or that have bumper stickers and gear on their vehicles. I bet in the last few years I have seen maybe 10 cars with Dolphins shit on it including my Trucks. But everytime they play here the fans seem to come out in droves and this past weekend was no different.

Thought I might have seen you on TV but wasn't sure...

Just an update for Miamid45.....so far it is looking like I will not have to send you any cash....

Marshall - 1017 yards - 8 TDs
Hartline - 807 yards - 1 TD

Still 5 weeks to go but Marshall seems to be pulling away.

Marshall is definitely playing much, much better this year. 

I have to give him credit and I've been very vocal against him.

I still stand by (so far) the fact that he shrinks in crunch time.  I see Marshall playing well in blowouts, but he's not a guy who I've seen make big catches when they're really needed.  We'll see, I guess.

Yah I hear you, the only thing that could derail Marshalls season, will be that Oline not being able to protect Cutler...if he goes down ,then Marshalls numbers will too.

I see Harline ending up with roughly 1100 yds and Marshall with 1600yds...you called it right!  Cheers!

It seems to me like an unfair comparison to compare Hartline and Marshall. Main reasons are the experience of the QBs and the fact that Miami spreads the ball around and BM whines if not getting 75% of the throws.

All things considered, I keep Brian. If Marshall was 3" shorter he would be asking if "you want fries with that".

You can't polish a turd. 

Well, if you want to talk about details:

- of MIA's 208 receptions, Hartline and Bess each have 55
- of CHI's 200 receptions, Marshall has 81; a little less than 1.5x one of them, but certainly less than both and nowhere near "75%"
- outside of Matt Forte (who is nearly identical to Reggie Bush in performance this year) and Marshall, CHI's receiving corps is arguably even worse than MIA's

Additionally, Hartline historically drops a greater % of balls thrown his way- which was a big knock on Marshall. Despite the hate thrown Brandon's way while he was in Miami for his comments about his QB's and the offense, he seems to have backed up his words when he has a better QB throwing him the ball. -EK

I think there's more to it than that. Cutler isn't just a better QB than what Marshall had in Miami, he's a different type of QB. Cutler isn't afraid to throw the ball to Marshall even when he seems covered and let Marshall make a play. Cutler doesn't care about turnovers and he doesn't care what his coaches think about turnovers either. He's gonna do what he wants to do. That's not how Henne was coached. Henne was coached to avoid turnovers like they were the plague. One turnever would lose the game and with Sparano's anemic offense that was pretty much true, but Chicago is not like that. They have a great D. A turnover is not the end of the world. Cutler can make a lot of risky throws and get away with it because he's also going to complete some of those risky throws for big plays.

I said pretty much the day they traded Marshall he would do better in Chicago than in he did in Miami. He fits there so much better than he fits in Miami because of Cutler and because they have a great a defense. There's no way that Marshall was ever going to do for Miami what he's doing for Chicago now.

Sadly, we'll never know. -EK

Henne has more INTs/start (1.22) than Cutler (1.10), so I'm not sure where this theory comes from.

Exactly. Even though Cutler is considered a gunslinger and Chad's nickname is "check-down" Chad, Cutler still manages to throw fewer INT's per game. If Chad were a gunslinger like Cutler, how many INT's would he have per game? Henne is not the same type of QB that Cutler is.

Not even in the same stratosphere. Henne is lucky to be a #2 QB in the NFL, lucky. Cutler is great. If he had an o-line who could block who knows how good he could really be!

I honestly don't have an opinion on this theory, I just wanted to say that maybe Henne has more INT's than Cutler because Jay is a much better QB than him overall.

Bump for Marshall 10 rec 160 yards.