The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Blue jays get

SS Jose Reyes
SP Josh Johnson
SP  Mark Buehrle
C  John Buck
Utilty man Emilio Bonifacio

Marlins get


SS Yunel Escobar
SP Henderson Alvarez
C Jeff Mathis
LHP Justin Nicolino (minor leaguer)
OF Jake Marisnick  (minor leaguer)
RHP Anthony DeSclafani  (minor leaguer)
SS Adeiny Hechavarria (minor leaguer)

There may be more or less in this deal, but from what i heard this is how the trade is.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8629079/jose-reyes-josh-johnson-verge-being-traded-miami-marlins-toronto-blue-jays (http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8629079/jose-reyes-josh-johnson-verge-being-traded-miami-marlins-toronto-blue-jays)

As a blue jays fan i am excited for this trade, and the ownership finally made a commitment to putting a contender on the field, and actually spending money.

Two of my favorite Marlins going away (Josh, Emilio)... I am pretty bummed about this trade.

Still think this year was the "new normal"?   A leopard doesn't change his spots.The Marlins just screwed over the City of Miami to get that new stadium.  They are nothing but a disgrace to Major League Baseball.

My buddy Ron posted this picture on his Facebook.  He titled it "A salute to the Marlins from the fans that are left"

(http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/s480x480/231096_434850286568952_11507321_n.jpg)

yankees need to get on the horn and get reyes ASAP

There should be an investigation into this. I am usually not one for quick reactions, but this is ridiculous. They swindled the city of Miami and aren't even pulling the same shit they usually do where they trade talent for prospects. No, this was just a salary dump.

Why am I not f**kin surprised...

This isn't as bad of a trade as everyone seems to think.  I think Marlin fans need to come off the ledge a little bit.  The only real piece you are giving up here that you're going to miss is Josh Johnson.

Jose Reyes is not a bad player.  Everyone is in love with the name brand.  Here is what he is in reality:

A dime a dozen player (for the money he is paid).

Lifetime BA is .291.  In ten years he has hit 92 home runs.  He does not have power.  Last year he hit 11.  Speed?  Sure, he stole 40 bases.  Would anyone like me to list off all of the players last season who hit .280 and stole 30-40 bases last year?  You'd be surprised at the frequency.  He was caught stealing 11 times.  Lifetime OPB of .342, OPS of .782.  Not bad numbers.  Amazing numbers?  No.

Now - tie those numbers into this:  He is owed another 106 million dollars through 2017 with a team option for 2018.  My understanding about the team option is if he is within certain percentages of his career averages in 2017 the team option becomes a mutual player option.  IE - Toronto may be stuck with him until 2018. 

21.2 million per year for a guy who hits .280 per year, drives in under 60, can't hit for power and gets caught stealing one of every ten times he makes an attempt.  Total SB are great (40) but not when your total CS are that high.

He also had 18 errors last season, good for .973 fielding percentage.

21.2 million per season.

By the way ~ he AVERAGES 18 errors per season.  He isn't exactly a wizard at SS.  He is average.  Not bad. 

I'm NOT saying Reyes is a bad player.  I'm saying at 21.2 million dollars I could find any number of short stops who could give me roughly the same production without crippling my payroll for the next five years.

Miami fans:  You have a bit of a log jam now at SS.  Along now with Yunel Escobar, who IS a wizard with the glove, I happen to be in love with Yordy Cabrera.  You probably don't know who he is yet because he was part of the Heath Bell deal.  That's okay, I know enough about him for all of us and I love the kid.  He is fast, plus arm, big kid. 

Oh...did I mention he has plus power?  That's right...a short stop who actually hits for power?  He isn't ready YET, I think he will be up for at least a cup of coffee in 2013. 

While I'm talking about the "kids" ~ just how closely are you Miami fans paying attention to your system?  Because I see a system loaded for bear in 2014.  You just grabbed two of Toronto's best pitching prospects to add to Fernandez and Heaney.  Yelich has all the tools to be an every day starting 1B.  The real prize, in my eyes, is a kid a lot of team have tried to pick pocket from Miami and haven't been able to - Realmuto (he's a catcher).  He really handles a staff well, has a freaking rocket for an arm, hits well (right around .260), has pop and is just a beast behind the plate.

Anyway, I'm not crying too much in my soup for the Marlins.  Not over losing a 21 million dollar SS, a #4 pitcher with an ERA creeping towards 4, a back up catcher and a utility guy you can find at any ball park.  The prize here is Josh Johnson. 

The Blue Jays know it.  I know it.  You all should know it too.  Added by himself, it's a powerful addition.  Added along with a solid #4, a good back up catcher for depth, a nice utility guy and a very good SS (however overpaid) and it puts the Jays in a good position to keep up in a head bashing AL East, which is only getting harder.

Josh Johnson is the piece of the this deal which makes the world go 'round.  If he wasn't part of this deal there ain't no way Toronto is taking on Reyes' contract.  They certainly are not paying 6 million for a back up catcher or 14.5 million for Buehrle.  Added all together and it makes sense.  Johnson is automatically your ace.  Buehrle is probably your 3, however most likely your 4 (only because of match ups).  I don't think Reyes hits lead off for the Jays, he will probably actually hit in the two hole. 

I will admit this doesn't pass the automatic eye ball test.  However most teams, including the Yankees, are trying to win with leaner payrolls versus bulkier ones.  Toronto could take on these contracts and still by mid level because they were so light in the wallet to start with.  Long term I like the Marlins better without Hanley, Reyes, Bell, etc.  I said last year it wouldn't work.  You can't win that way in this league.  The Red Sox built it right, rode a nice wave ~ forgot their way and now are paying the price.  They are getting back to the way teams should be built, from the inside out.  Have a core, sprinkle in some outside talent.

I like this move on both club's part.  Toronto obtained two quality arms (which is really what the deal was about) to help them keep pace in the East.  The Marlins were able to get out from under a few contracts they didn't want any more and obtain flexibility.  I am not sure they are done. 

I am willing to bet you this:  The 2013 Marlins win more games than the 2012 Marlins did.  The 2014 Marlins?  Based on what I am seeing from how they are growing the system?  Watch out.

I am so sick of defending the Marlins.  They have proven me wrong one too many times.  I'm not doing it anymore.  Jeffrey Loria is an asshole and a detriment to baseball, and until he sells the team, I vow to not give a penny to any Marlins-related activities.  I'm done with this team, and I'm disgusted by the way he swindled the city, pretended to give a crap, and then went right back to his standard-issue bullshit.

Maine - I understand what you're saying from a purely-baseball perspective.  Take off the names and look at production, and its similar to the Brandon Marshall trade (which I still support).  But its more about the principle.  Twice in team history has the Marlins sold off the "entire team" and tried to build with prospects.  However, prospects don't bring asses to seats.  The Marlins are always "building for 2 years from now" and never want to win now. 

Besides, EVERY time they build prospects, develop them, and trade them away when they become good.  The only reason they haven't dealt Stanton yet is because he's locked up for peanuts.  Wait till he gets paid, then see how long before he's gone too.  It happens all the time with this team.  Build them up, develop the player, and jettison for prospects.  It happened with Cabrera.  It happened with Hanley.  And now, it happened with JJ.

Moreover, its the stadium charade.  They convinced the city of Miami to fund their stadium, and then duped us all into thinking they were committed to winning.  Bringing in Guillen, Buehrle, Reyes, Bell, chasing Pujols and CJ Wilson and Cespedes made it look like thy had money to spend and were willing to represent the city of Miami proudly and COMPETE.  Now, they've completely UNDONE every move they made last offseason, given away the team's nucleus for what?  A possibility to win in 2 years?  It ALWAYS 2 years away with this team.  When does tomorrow become today?

I'm sick of it.  And it takes a lot to get me to walk away.  I supported them when they were the worst team in baseball.  I supported the Dolphins when they were 1-15.  I supported the Panthers when they couldn't break 28 wins for 4 straight seasons.  But this isn't about winning.  Its about betrayal, and CONTINUED and REPEATED betrayal.  And I'm sick and tired of it.

Jeffrey Loria has pissed off two baseball cities in two different countries. I don't think the guy has any desire to build winners.

I don't understand how MLB allowed him to buy the Marlins after what he did to the Expos.  HE should be banished from all sports forever.  Go buy some paintings and leave us alone.

Just read this on Wikipedia.  Sound familiar?

Here is a major problem with your stance, Brian:

The Marlins were not winning with the players on the field.  So I counter with this:  What would you have him do?  Hold on to a 21 million dollar SS when you can find the same production for under 3 million?  Hold on a closer who clearly couldn't close?  Pay 6 million for a back up catcher?

Your argument would hold water if the Marlins were a viable club the last couple of years.  They haven't been.  I tried to tell you guys that Hanley wasn't the same player, you wouldn't listen.  It is a BLESSING the Dodgers took that nut case off your hands.  I tried to tell you the Reyes signing was a bad move.  You wouldn't listen.  It's a GOOD thing he is gone.  I tried to tell you Bell was a high wire act, a gas can closer.  You would not listen.  He is someone else's headache now.  These are all very good things.

What you lost here is a top flight pitcher.  What you have in the wings are potential top flight pitchers.  You also lost a very solid innings eater.  Not exactly a license to print money.

I would understand the outrage if Miami had knocked on 94 wins last year and made noise.  They sucked from the beginning of the season until the end.  They finished 24 games under .500 and 29 games out of 1st.  What good did any of those players do for you?  2011?  19 games under .500 and 30 games out of 1st.  2010?  2 games under .500 and 17 games out of 1st.

What you're doing is not working.

They tried.  It doesn't make any sense to have a brand new stadium without anyone in it.  How do you put people in it?  You win.

Miami won 69 games in 2012.  I am willing to wager you this: Without Reyes, Hanley, Bell, Marky Mark and the Lefty Bunch, Johnson, etc...Miami will win more games in 2013 than 2012.

The TEAM will be better.  It will be a better product.  Do you want a winning product, or do you want to root for individual players?

"If we finished last with you, we can sure as shit finish last without you..."

-Branch Rickey.

How do the marlins still have fans?

I give Escobar until the all-star break before he blows up the clubhouse.

I hear you, and I agree.  I want the team to be better.  But what happens then?  What's the next chapter?  Its a cycle that has happened three times already.  You don't see other teams trading away their core players seemingly every year at the deadline.

So great the Marlins have tons of young talent!  Hooray!  The Marlins will be great in 2014!  I can't wait.  But in 2015, they will trade away Jacob Turner or Jose Fernandez or whatever good player some team comes asking about.  They will dangle some prospects and the Marlins will bite.  It keeps happening.

Would the Yankees ever trade Jeter or Rivera for some kids?  Would the Red Sox trade Ortiz?  It would be nice to keep a nucleus of core guys that are good player for more than 2-3 seasons.  Right now, that nucleus is Giancarlo Stanton, Logan Morrison, and Ricky Nolasco.  

I just don't know how many times they can keep doing this, planning to win later instead of now.  Especially when later never comes.

I am already upset with the nature of baseball, as I've been vocal about for the last 10 years.  This is the kind of reason why.  It's not just a salary dump.  It looks like a salary dump with no earnest attempt to improve your team.  That's hard for fans to swallow.

As a taxpayer, I feel bamboozled....like some billionaire came along with promise, in order to get a stadium deal.  As soon as he has it -- BAM!  Bye bye, payroll.

To be fair -
The stadium deal was in place LONG before he hired all those players.  The players were a shiny facade to make people come to the stadium.  In addition, YOU do not pay a penny of taxes for the stadium because you don't live in Miami-Dade county.

SI's Joe Sheehan tweeted this that sums up my opinion:
"The frustrating thing about the #Marlins trade is that evaluated on its own, it's not a bad baseball deal. It just sucks in every other way."

You said it yourself - the deal for the stadium was already done.

Here is the thing:  The wounds are too raw for me to talk any sense into any in that area.  I don't mean that to sound snide or flip.  I hear what you're saying.  Hear this, however:

New stadium would have been completed, either way.  So ownership could have taken two routes:

1:  The cheap route and people yell and scream.  "Where is the good product?"  No one comes to the games.
2:  Try to field a winner.  Put a name brand on the field.  It didn't work.

However, the owner is in a can't win position right now.  The "name brand" approach didn't work on the field, thus no one came to the games.  No one came to the games - he can't afford the name brands on the field.  It's simple mathematics.

Fire sales:  Yes, they have done this before.  However other ownership groups with the Marlins did this.  I would also like to remind all of you of something.  I have been preaching this for years:

Wayne Huizenga told you "I will put a winning team on the field.  I will spend every dollar I can to field a championship team.  If the fans do not come out and support the team, I ***HAVE TO DISBAND IT***."  I was on the freaking conference call with the guy when he said it.  It wasn't a huge surprise, or it shouldn't have been.  No one wanted a winner in Florida more than Huizenga, and the guy gave you one.

1997 the Marlins average 29,190 per game, although they were one of the best teams in baseball at 92-70.  They reached the playoffs in only their 5th year season, an MLB record.  The NLDS they averaged 42,000 per game, as they did in the NLCS.  It wasn't until the World Series they finally started nearing capacity at Pro Player Stadium.

The people in Southern Florida came out and really put their support behind this team for four games, really. 

One of the best teams in baseball ~ playoff birth, deep playoff run, WS title...and you can't average - AVERAGE - 30,000 per game.  The blame is on the owner, who told you what was going to happen if the team didn't get support?

Sorry, calling BS on that one.  Don't get me started on the attendance on the 2003 run, either.  People didn't come out and support that team, either.

Two World Series winners in your history, which dates back less than 30 years.  Yet, no matter what the team has done, the only real season the market has supported the team was the inaugural year...and that was just over 30,000. 

Am I missing something?  The "fan base" shares blame here.  Not just in Miami, but Tampa as well.

To be fair, not all seat in Pro Player were "for sale" for those games.  The only time they ever sold the upper deck in the outfield was during the World Series.  I'd argue that, in baseball format, "capacity" was around 40,000 seats.  Besides, how many other MLB stadiums have a capacity near 80,000 seats?  I don't think anyone would expect to sell 80,000 tickets to a baseball game. 

Regardless, I don't see how attendance has anything to do with it.  They were averaging around 25000 sold last season.  Considering they year before (I'd guess the number was under 10k), that's a huge improvement.

They tried the name brand - it failed.  You give up after 1 year?  How many teams in any sport reboot after every season?  Did they expect to go from 72 wins to world champs in 1 season? 

I've backed up a bit from the ledge since last night, but I'm still a bit ticked off.  I still don't plan on supporting the team financially, and we'll see what happens.  But, in all, this whole thing has left a sour taste, and I'm not alone.  Most of south Florida is on my page here.

This sounds like something I would have written about 9 PM last night, but its still a good read...

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/20972787/marlins-owner-rips-team-and-city-apart-with-despicable-trade-and-must-be-stopped

I REALLY hate to piss on the Marlins fans (whomever is left now),but it's been rumored already that the Marlins are shopping Nolasco,and Logan Morrison...Umm there goes that "core"  :'(
Several GMs expect #Marlins to trade Ricky Nolasco. Marlins also shopping Logan Morrison (https://twitter.com/joecapMARLINS/status/268791642394357760)
Tweet from the palm beach post..

I feel bad for the Marlins fans...

I heard that too.  I don't, for one second, believe that they are done giving away players.



Gary Sheffield: "I know a lot of players...they wouldn't dare touch the Marlins."

Yes, especially after finishing with one of the worst records in the league (1) and almost 30 games out of the division league.  Nothing there to think the current roster was going to do anything different if kept together.

Attendance means everything, Brian.  A viable MLB franchise needs to average 30,000 per game to come close to 2,500,000 through the gates for the season.  This is generally considered the mark where teams need to be in order to stay above water.  Teams who aren't hitting this mark on living solely on TV revenue and revenue sharing, which isn't fair to the rest of the league.

Does the owner care?  He's got a payroll at 16 million right now.  He's making a profit on revenue sharing alone.  Why should he bother?

I wonder how many MLB franchises are averaging 30k per night.  I expect the Yankees and Red Sox, but I watch games on TV and parks appear empty across the country.

Over half of the league averaged 30,000 per game.  If you factor in teams "close" to the mark (27,000 or higher) it was 20 teams or more, including your Marlins last season.

A few teams who did not hit the mark last year WILL this coming year:  Baltimore, Oakland, Toronto.  They were in the mid 20's and based on their performance last year (plus trades this season), they should see an increase at the gates.

So to answer your question, there are generally ten teams or less each year who do not perform to this level.  To Miami's credit, they were closing in on 30,000 this season ~ which clearly had more to do with the pull of the new stadium than the performance on the field.

Had that team been VIABLE on the field?  They EASILY would have gone past it.  27,000 per game and the one of the worst teams in baseball.  You do the math.

30,000 is not a magic number only pulled in by Boston and New York.  It's done by the majority of the league, not the minority.

I am hearing on the radio that this is actually a sensible deal for the Marlins, but it's one that just sucks.  I don't really understand.

Can someone explain to me like I'm 5 how this is in the best interest of the franchise?

^^ if you read Maine's post on the first page (the long one) it pretty much explains it well.

Some of the saved revenue has to immediately go back into baseball operations as well, however.  There is some really good, quality free agents out there.  There is no reason why Miami couldn't hover around .500 next season, with the right additions.

Think long and hard on that.  You just traded away your starting SS, closer, ace, #2, catcher...and I think you will improve by about 10-12 games next season.  I really do.  A couple things need to shake out your way, baseball is a funky, funky sport.  I think .500 is within reach for this core.

Maine, isn't there a value to Buehrle's ability to just eat up innings?  The guy is a reliable workhorse.  Not a star, perhaps, but valuable.

I won't necessarily miss Reyes.  I could forgive the power numbers if he were a defensive wizard (my favorite player of all time: Ozzie Smith) and was a consistent .300 hitter, but he's not.

Johnson could've been a #1 pitcher for years to come.  I will miss him.  Buehrle was steady and reliable.  Necessary for a good team.  The catcher?  He's a JAG (just another guy).

All that being said (written), I grew up a Cardinals fan and damn if I don't feel like the Marlins are just begging me to switch back...

The guy that's being overlooked in this deal is the guy I'm going to miss the most.  Emilio Bonifacio, while not a star, is a valuable player.  Capable leadoff hitter, can be a league-leader in stolen bases, and can play 7 positions where needed.  Last season, he was injured for 4 weeks before he lost the league lead in stolen bases.  And he was the emotional leader of the team and a fan favorite.  I don't see how he won't be missed.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, I really love Bonifacio. He and Josh are definitely my two favorite Marlins, and now both are gone.

The Marlins franchise has a stance that they don't give out no trade clauses. I am fine with that.

The Marlins gave handshake no trade deals to Reyes and Buerhle because neither wanted to leave Miami. They traded them anyway. I am not fine with that.

Christ, they just lied to these guys and traded them from Miami beaches to a different country. Hard to be a bigger douchebag than that.

Free agents are not coming to Miami - It's being said among agents and players. Why sign here when the chance they'll be traded in a year is so high.

With the way the Marlins and Dolphins are going, the Heat players must be swimming in Miami booty.

Players will always go to the highest bidder. They will just ask for that no trade in writing next time. If MLB had a team at the North Pole, Scott Boras would convince his clients to sign there if the deal was 8 years/$320 Million. The players would then lie and say they went there for the school system and how Santa Claus personally recruited them and they felt a community spirit with the elves.

Thats the problem. The Marlins refuse to include no-trade clauses

^^ of course because then they wouldn't be able to blow up the team every season.  That's why the Marlins front office blows.

Yes, a lot of value.  I wasn't trying to say he doesn't hold value.  On the open market he simply wouldn't hold his present value for the amount his signed is all I meant.  200+ each year, under 4 ERA, lefty.  He is a solid 3.  I'm not hating on the guy at all, I would take him on Boston's staff every day of the week.

And now the players know that the word of the owners and personnel mean squat, so they would be less likely to sign with them now if all money being relatively equal.

No trade clauses used to be because players wanted to stay where they signed, but now they are just an instrument an agent uses for power, same as the opt out clause. So, I am fine with a team having a policy not to give them out. CC Sabathia swore up and down that he would only use his opt out clause if he hated living in NY, since he is a California guy. Well, he opted out.....only to re-sign with NY so he could get more years at big money. It was a dick move, but I don't look at my favorite athletes to be role models. It's nice when they are, but it doesn't bother me when they aren't.

I wish Roethlisberger was a rapist in a Dolphins uniform. Then we'd have some championships.

I don't agree with the Marlins doing what they did.  However, I will say this:

GET IT IN WRITING.  It's like the line from Jerry MaGuire.  "I'm still kind of moved by your 'my word is stronger than oak' thing..."

Reyes and company saw the dollars and chased the dollars.  They knew the Marlins wouldn't do a no trade on paper.  They took a chance.  They had a chance to say "you know what?  Screw you.  Want me, put the damn no trade on paper and we'll talk."  They didn't.  Players pull this same stuff all the time as well while singing Nelly "hey, must be the money!"  At the end of the day, the contracts will be honored.  Just in Toronto.

The Marlins did them semi dirty.  You have to get that in writing.  Otherwise save the crying for people not making $106 million to play short stop.

Exactly, Maine.

I doubt the Marlins would refuse to sign Reyes last year if he demanded a no-trade, because that would've sent a clear message to all present and future free agents that your time in Miami will be short.

Now I see that the Marlins are shopping Giancarlo Stanton

They don't need to shop Stanton, he has another 4 years of team control. What package of prospects could possibly be better than Stanton himself?

Can I get a link to where the "Marlins are actually shopping Stantoon" I saw it referenced as a Yahoo article mentioning,"if the Marlins are rebuilding they Ought to trade him,like Dallas did with H.Walker"

JMO Stanton is a building block to build around...

I am sure they have received calls about him and they listened because that's their job and only a fool doesn't listen to an offer, but I don't think they are serious about trading him unless it's for Mike Trout straight up. Despite what GM's say, NO ONE is untouchable.

They're not trading Stanton.  They have stated that the offer has to be ridiculous for them to consider it.  He's locked up for under half-a-million a year.  Why would they trade him?