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http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/05/16/robert-mathis-suspended-four-games/

Another failed test. Suspended 4 games. Wonder when the Josh Gordon verdict will come down? Has to be soon

Robert Mathis released a statement that he was taking infertility drugs to try to get his wife pregnant.  He was misinformed by his doctor about the consequences of taking the drug with respect to the NFL drug policy.

I believe the story, and it sucks for him.  But its obviously not his first infraction.

Mathis is probably lying. The NFL laid it out perfectly in their statement

"The drug for which Mr. Mathis tested positive is not approved by the FDA for fertility in males and is a performance-enhancing drug that has been prohibited for years. Importantly, Mr. Mathis did not consult with the policy's Independent Administrator, a physician jointly approved by the NFL and NFL Players Association. Nor did he consult with his team doctor, the team's training staff, the NFLPA, the league office or the hotline established under the policy to give confidential information to players. Each of these sources would have warned against using this substance."

IF he is telling the truth all Mathis had to do was contact the team doctor or the league to find out if it was ok to take, he did neither. No personal responsibility. Anyway if he didn't have a failed test or two already he wouldn't have been suspended. This wasn't his first strike. Tough to feel sorry for him.

From his statement:


"I made the mistake of not calling the NFL or NFLPA to double check before I took the medication at the end of last season . . . I regret that I didn’t cross check what my doctor told me before I took the medication.”

Sounds like he is taking personal responsibility to me.

So then why did he appeal the suspension at first? Taking "responsibility" it admitting you messed up and not appealing trying to get out of it!

if you feel that it is a misunderstanding and that maybe the commissioner would be sympathetic to the situation and allow him to try to procreate under medical assistance, and NOT that he's roiding up, then of course you appeal.  Why would you not?

agree to disagree on this one. What he took was a clear PED and the NFL has stated such and if he was expecting sympathy or thinks he could pass it off as a misunderstanding he was fooling himself. I'm not sure many people are buying the "fertility" story anyway.

I am not buying.  

In order to get suspended you need to fail three tests.  One to get into stage one, a second to get to stage 2, and then a third to get suspended.  If you don't stop after the second warning you are an idiot.

The drug he took is not approved by the FDA for fertility.  So, let see..Mathis is lying or the doctor is grossly incompetent.

Mathis and his wife already have twins.   

The drug is on the list which is listed here:  http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/Banned%20Substance%20List.pdf

This isn't a story about some kid testing positive for heroin after eating a seed danish.

The NFL's list is in the public domain.  The drug is listed by the name that was prescribed, it isn't like he missed it because it was under a different name and didn't make the connection. 

You always appeal stuff like this. Gives you a chance to explain how you made the mistake in hopes that they let you slide

Under section D, Anti-Estrogenic agents.  

Do you know what Chlomiphene is?

Educate yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clomifene

Clomifene citrate has been found very effective in the treatment of secondary male hypogonadism in many cases.[12] This has shown to be a much more attractive option than testosterone replacement therapy (TRT) in many cases because of the reduced cost and convenience of taking a pill as opposed to testosterone injections or gels.[13] Unlike traditional TRT it also does not shrink the testes and as a result can enhance fertility. Traditional TRT has the risk of inducing a chemical gonadectomy, although with monitoring and low-dose hCG as adjunct, this is usually preventable and reversible.[14] Because clomifene citrate has not been FDA approved for use in males it is prescribed off-label.

You guys are being closed-minded.  Its possible that he was prescribed this by his doctor as a way to avoid other drugs that were against the list as well (testosterone injections would almost certainly be a violation).  Of course, he's a dummy for not checking it, but sometimes you have to trust your doctors.

^^^^ next paragraph....

Recreational use[edit]
Clomifene is commonly used by male users to bind the estrogen receptors in their bodies, thereby blocking the effects of estrogen, such as gynecomastia. It also restores the body's natural production of testosterone.[18] It is included on the World Anti-Doping Agency list of illegal doping agents in sport.[19]

---

Come on seriously...., if the doctor gave this to him by accident the doctor should lose his licence.  According to Mathis his doctor said it wasn't on the banned substance list.  I found it on the banned substance list in 30 seconds.   

^^ Again, I'm not saying he shouldn't have double checked.  Lesson learned.  What I am saying is that his story is completely plausible and I believe it.  You, and others, automatically assume he's lying and making up an excuse.

What's the difference, the end result is the same.  Banned substances are banned substances, period.  He should have checked it himself, and he admitted that in his statement.  The error here is (1) the doctor is clearly not familiar enough with the banned substance list to be making such statements, and (2) Mathis took a non-expert's word for it as fact.

I think he got caught and came up with a lame excuse with this fertility nonsense. No different than Ryan Braun blaming the UPS guy or the German Olympian claiming his toothpaste was spiked. Mathis is a repeat offender and he can't be trusted or believed.

Bingo.

Manny Ramirez is innocent too.  So is Lance Armstrong.  A-rod, & Barry Bonds too. 

^^ I never said innocent.  I don't think he's saying he's innocent.  I never heard him say "I didn't do it..."  It was pretty clear, he said "yeah I took it, but here's why"

You're both being ridiculous.  You believe what you want, but you're probably wrong.

Yeah... his story is real believable.  

According to his agent....the first time they had kids his wife took the drug to produce eggs, but she couldn't take it any more for medical reason so he took it instead.  

If the wife has infertility issues of producing eggs, the husband taking the drug to produce more sperm is going to fix the problem.  

Or maybe the 11 year old player was losing his edge in the game and decided to extend his career with drugs and when he got caught rather than admit what he did he decided to tell a story of woe about want to give his dying mother another grandchild. 

I have question to ask the Mathis defenders....

How many 33 year olds go from a season average from a 10 year average of less  than 10 sacks per game to 19.5 sacks and the lead leader in sacks for the first time?

Pretty amazing that a DE could show such improvement at that age, don't you think? 

At 33 years old be the first time he gets elected to the all-pro team.  First time he wins the AFC Defensive Player of the Year.  Of the four times he won AFC Defensive Player of the Month two of them is when he is 33. 

Clearly playing DE in the NFL like golf or chess a game where you get better with age and don't slow down. 

I want to just throw this in for all you smart mark know it alls- most of you clearly have NO idea what clomid is or how it's used! It's not- in any way, shape, or form, a performance enhancer. Athletes take it AFTER running a cycle of steroids to suppress gyno and other sides. It doesn't enhance performance at all. Educate yourselves. Next point- while it is not (yet) FDA approved for male fertility, many GP's prescribe it as such frequently and have for years.

Did Mathis screw up by taking something he should not have? Absolutely. Was it a PED or a mistake by his doctor? No. -EK

NFL views his failure as a failed PED test. They claim it boosts testosterone. I will go with them and their medical experts over someone like you who trolls an internet message board and is clearly uneducated on a lot of subjects!

That's why you're a moron.  Hoodie posted exactly what it does. If you don't believe me, call your physician. And they don't claim that it boosts test anyway. I know sometimes reading comprehension is hard for you, but stay with me. NFL banned substance list: http://images.nflplayers.com/mediaResources/files/Banned%20Substance%20List.pdf

Clomid is listed as an "Anti-estrogenic Agent" That means it suppresses estrogen (as in post-cycle). It's not listed under the Hormones or Anabolic Agents categories. 

You're in over your head if you want to argue this one with me. I've been around pro bodybuilders and powerlifters for the better part of 20 years who use this stuff. I know what I'm talking about. -EK

Pretty sure this isn't correct.

EK is right, clomid/nolvadex is run as part of PCT(post cycle therpy) to inhibit arimization of estrogen. When you run gear, you body tries to establish homeostasis and compensates for an overabundance  of androgens by converting them to estrogen. Hence, a SERM like clomid is taken to suppress the excess estrogen, which has negative effects for bodybuilding. You don't take just clomid. And I'm sure he would have popped hot for anabolics if he was actually taking one. Most types of gear are detectable much longer than SERMS are.

So you are both claiming the NFL is wrong?! Once again I will go with their medical experts over you two. Sorry

HA HA HA! sure ok


Only person in over their head is you. Once again I will go with the NFL medical experts over an internet message board troll who has no credibility

Didn't I tell you reading comprehension would be a problem? I linked you the NFL list and, once again, Clomid is NOT a PED- it's clearly labeled an anti-estrogen. What part of that in black and white is getting past you? The NFL "doctors" aren't claiming it's a test elevator. You are, but anything steroid or gym related is apparently far out of your wheelhouse.

So, I'll ask again- how is it a test booster when the NFL themselves labels it as something else? Love to hear how you dodge or manipulate this one. Again- over your head.


^^100% this.

What do you think, MikeO, that Pondwater and I arbitrarily came up with the exact same use for Clomid and it just happened to coincide with what the NFL lists the drug as being used for, but we're all wrong- he, I, and the NFL too? And you're right? Really? And where exactly did the NFL doctors say it boosts test? The official statement regarding the suspension reads that the drug is a performance enhancer and that it's not approve by the FDA for what Mathis claimed he used it for. NOTHING about increasing test. You just make shit up as you go as usual, and you're getting called out on it. The only reason it's even considered a PED is because it allows a user to take a cycle of steroids and then get test levels back within normal range, not because it elevates them outside of normal range or because it directly helps performance in any way. -EK

^^^From the NFL's statement...the first sentence says it all

"The drug for which Mr. Mathis tested positive is not approved by the FDA for fertility in males and is a performance-enhancing drug that has been prohibited for years. Importantly, Mr. Mathis did not consult with the policy's Independent Administrator, a physician jointly approved by the NFL and NFL Players Association. Nor did he consult with his team doctor, the team's training staff, the NFLPA, the league office or the hotline established under the policy to give confidential information to players. Each of these sources would have warned against using this substance."

The NFL says its a PED and you say it isn't. Once again, siding with them over someone like you!

Knew you'd change your story!


Now, where in that NFL statement does it say it elevates test levels? That's right- it doesn't. You just keep making shit up. Stop avoiding the point- the NFL lists it as an estrogen blocker. Why don't you answer that point? Stop ignoring the facts that don't agree with your incorrect opinion. I just explained to you how it is considered a performance enhancer.

You are talking in circles now and arguing for the sake of arguing. I never changed my story go back and read the thread its what I have said all day. It's a PED. It's a performance enhancer that has been prohibited for years as the league has clearly stated. Pretty cut and dry to me.

As a doctor on the NFLN said the other night, by taking this drug your testosterone levels increases....that is a PED! How much more simple is it than that?!  If taking this drug lowers your estrogen than obviously your testosterone levels will be higher. That's what a PED is, artificially enhancing your testosterone levels! Giving yourself a boost!  In the world of sports that's cheating!

I'm no doctor don't pretend to be. You can cut and paste from Wikipedia and other sites and try to pass it off as your own knowledge but the bottom line is Mathis tried to cheat its plain and simple. You want to spin this into something its not fine, but he failed a PED test by taking a PED. Case closed!

I don't think you are understanding the mechanism in which this works. A SERM inhibits estrogen. Therefore it will raise testosterone. However, it only raises testosterone after it is already converted to estradiol through aromatization in adipose tissue, certain brain tissue, and other specific tissues via negative feedback loop. If you don't take steroids to first raise androgens, clomid isn't going to raise your test levels above baseline. So, yes the doctor you are quoting is technically right, in that it will raise test levels. But, that only applies if your levels are already low due to testosterone to estradiol conversion. Your test levels would already have to be much higher than baseline for aromatization to happen. And you would have to be on gear or have a medical issue for your test levels to rise that much over baseline.

Never changed your story? Now you're flat lying.




So you went from "the NFL doctors say it boosts testosterone," to "an expert on the NFL network (but no one from the league) says it does, but my quote from the league doesn't say that at all."

You understand that not all PEDs raise test levels, right? Ephedrine is on that list for being a stimulant. In fact, there's more things on that list that DON'T raise test than do. Your ignorance seems to know no boundaries. -EK

And that is cheating! He raised his levels That's all I have said. Mathis is guilty he got caught. Debate over!

Mike, sorry buddy, I normally think you are a pretty good poster but you and Hoodie are flat out wrong here.

You're telling me that chlomid, a drug that helps women ovulate, ALSO doubles your sack numbers?  Wow.  How ridiculous.

Chlomid does not boost testosterone.  It reduces estrogen.  Different.  Mathis did NOT test positive for anabolics.  NFL calls it a "performance enhancer" because it is on their list.  Its a convenient label. 

Again, no one is claiming that taking Chlomid is OK - it is CLEARLY against the policy.  But the reason for taking it, while NOT taking other steroids, can only be for fertility challenges.  That's a fact, and somehow you can't grasp that. 

Sorry Mike, stop arguing, cause you're wrong.

I'm wrong yet the NFL agrees with me. Yeah, ok

I don't understand why you keep saying the NFL agrees with you.  I also don't understand why you think we are all saying Mathis is innocent. 

MATHIS TOOK A DRUG THAT IS ON THE BANNED DRUGS LIST.  The NFL said so, Mathis said so, everyone on this thread said so.  No one is disputing that.

The REASON Mathis took the drug has NEVER been broached by the NFL.  You're arguing that he did it because he wanted more sacks.  In fact, his statement was NEVER refuted by the NFL, and based on the surrounding circumstances, is likely true.

Think what you want.  You're being ignorant.

I am claiming he did to get a competitive edge and he is lying. He cheated and tried altering his testosterone levels to get an edge.  Period, that's cheating. I'm not going to spend a 2nd day going In circles over this. Your not changing my mind and I won't change yours.  The facts back me up but you disagree and see it differently....fine.i think you are ignorant and naive you think I am. Is what it is.

You can think what you want - but the facts don't back you up.

As long as he thinks it, there can be no contesting its ultimate truth...

We see the "facts" very differently.  He is a serial cheater and what he took was to give him a competitive edge.  

I'm not the only one who thinks it stroke.

OK, agree to disagree.  You're free to live in ignorance, thinking that a fertility drug gives football players a competitive advantage.

You are free to live in ignorance as well and be naive. I'm sure this won't be the last failed drug test by Mathis so we can continue this conversation when he fails his next one. He has a history of trying to get a competitive edge through cheating

Seriously, MikeO, since I've asked you this several times, how about actually addressing it- the facts don't back you up. I provided the list of banned substances. Clomid is listed as an anti-estrogen. How is that backing you up at all?

It elevates test levels BACK TO WITHIN NORMAL RANGE.

Are you even aware that when they run a drug test, they don't just look for compounds, they also look for testosterone to epitest ratio. Normal is considered 6:1. If Clomid elevated his test levels like an anabolic agent, they would have come back as 200:1 or 1000:1 like Ryan Braun's did. How do you explain that the drug that you insist elevated his test levels didn't return an elevated blood serum test:epitest result? Must be magic! -EK

Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to me that the reason chlomid is on the banned substance list is because it helps mask other PED's, not because it's an actually PED.  Is that right???  Now I don't know whether Mathis is telling the truth, I would lean towards the probabilty that he is telling the truth.  However, I can't argue with the NFL's penalty due to his prior infractions, if this was a first time issue I doubt the penalty would have been so severe.

While I don't normally post here much of late, I still stalk, and I've just really gotta post since this is actually in my realm in a couple of ways, both as a physician (seriously...Internal Medicine at UAB) and a gym *rat*, or as much as I can be nowadays.

Sorry, Mike, but the others are right about Clomifene.  It is indeed used for infertility issues, and I have seen it used in males.  While it is true that it can and is used by bodybuilders to inhibit the excess estogen production in the setting of a heightened androgenic state, like pondwater stated, if someone was using it for those purposes, you would almost certainly and invariably see an increased testosterone level, much above baseline.  It doesn't sound like that was the case with Mathis, though I agree, he made a mistake by not looking into matters further himself since regardless of whether Clomid would "boost" his testosterone or not (not), it was still on the NFL's banned list.

And don't hang your hat too much on medications used for indications that aren't FDA approved....you'd probably be very shocked how often that indeed is the case in the field of medicine.

No, SERMs don't hide PEDs. Actually, most orals are detectable from 4-8 weeks with most injectables from 1-18 months. Clomid detection time is ususlly less than a month. So in all reality, if someone was on any effective PEDs then they would probably test positive for the actual steroids long after clomid has left their system.

Like EK said, ephedrine is on the PED list and I would hardly call that performance enhancing. Hell, I don't even know why it's banned.

I heard the agent for Mathis come on the Mike and Mike show yesterday and he said that the NFL has granted an exception for other players to take this drug for the exact purpose that Mathis said he took it and that had Mathis' agent gone to the NFL and asked for a TUE (Theraputic Use Exception) prior to him taking it, that they most likely would have granted it and he could have used it.

Also Mathis was not appealing the fine, only the suspension. He said that he would be more then willing to pay the fine in the amount of what a 4 game suspension will cost him if he would just be allowed to play. Sounds to me like Mathis just made a mistake, not that he was trying to cheat. Now it could be that he was trying to cheat and is using all of this as an excuse, but based on what his agent said, he's not too bright then because if he had told his story to the NFL prior to using the drug, and asked for an exception everything would have been fine.

^^ this.


And this.

Be careful, though, Pondwater. You can't say I'm correct more than once in the same thread or Mike's head might explode. -EK

The 1 thing that makes me think that this isn't about him cheating is that no other compounds were found in his system. If he was trying to cheat by just using clomid, he's got to be the stupidest player in the NFL. As has been stated numerous times. Clomid alone will not enhance your performance, any positive effects would be negligible and inconsequential.

Well to be honest, I could care less if they all juice up. It would amp up the game and make it better in my opinion. As far as player safety goes. Most of the scare tactics about steroids and PEDs are just government propaganda. Doing these things to your body is a slight risk. So is everything you do in life.

Try telling that to Chris Benoit's family

It's my understanding that brain damage, not "roid rage" is what led to that tragedy. ESPN had a story on it: http://m.espn.go.com/general/story?storyId=3005520&src=desktop -EK

Not sure why their opinion about steroids would matter much. They may have a emotional attachment that may affect their judgement about the topic. It would be about the same as telling the sandy hook parents that we have a 2nd amendment right to firearms. Most people who lose family members have judgement clouded by emotion. They would rather blame anything other than their loved one or the person really responsible.

I think he's referring to to the fact he murdered his family before killing himself. They aren't here to blame anyone.