The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Looks like there are some questions (http://www.si.com/nfl/2014/09/14/percy-harvin-sammy-watkins-controversial-touchdowns) as to how the Sammy Watkins and Percy Harvin "touchdowns" passed review:

All scoring plays in the NFL are subject to review. So what the heck happened Sunday?

Despite the league's (thus far) more effective reviewing process, which now includes a war room in New York to help in-game referees make calls, a pair of controversial touchdowns were hung on the board without a meaningful second look on Sunday.

The first occurred on rookie Sammy Watkins' first career touchdown in Buffalo. Watkins caught a pass from EJ Manuel while streaking across the middle, then turned the corner and reached the football out for the pylon.

But did he actually get the ball there? Watkins appeared to bobble the football around the two, then lost it entirely just as he was awarded the touchdown.

(http://chrisburke82.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/sammy1.png)

If the ball reached either the front tip of the goal line or the pylon while still in Watkins' hands, the touchdown call was correct. However, if he fumbled it early, with the ball then hitting the pylon and rolling out of bounds, it should have been ruled a touchback and Miami's possession.

The CBS broadcast showed several replays and it was extremely close. There may not have been enough evidence in the long run to overturn the call on the field, but there certainly was plenty to warrant an extended review.

Percy Harvin's touchdown at San Diego later Sunday was a far more clear-cut case. Harvin put Seattle in front 7-3 on a 51-yard rushing touchdown. Only ...

(http://chrisburke82.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/harvin.jpg)

... he stepped out of bounds. The Watkins play may have been a borderline decision. This one was rather obvious.

Worse yet (as you can see in that photo above), there was an official no more than seven yards away from Harvin, staring right at him when he crossed the boundary. That official did not rule Harvin out of bounds, the automatic review of a scoring play apparently found nothing out of the ordinary and no replay was initiated.

Coaches are not supposed to have to challenge scoring plays because of the built-in automatic review option. (You might recall that Jim Schwartz negated a possible replay by challenging a Houston touchdown on Thanksgiving back in 2012; that rule has since been changed to allow for reviews of scoring plays regardless of what the coach does.)

The NFL issued a statement after the game, saying Harvin's score was "incorrectly confirmed."

''Had the game been stopped for a replay review," the statement read, "the touchdown would have been reversed because Harvin stepped out of bounds at the San Diego 21-yard line."

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I called this in the game thread.  This play should have been a fumble and touchback.

Of course, since MIA got blown out and SEA lost anyway, this will all be swept under the rug.

We were down 16-10 at that point, correct?

Taking that touchdown off the board and adding a turnover could have been the momentum swing Miami needed. I thought Philbin should have called a timeout to force a real review.

It got a real review. ..all scoring plays are reviewed and the game doesn't start back up till the score is confirmed.  Philbin calling a timeout doesn't mean they review it twice!

I was disappointed by that call.  It seems pretty clear that he begins the fumble at the 1 and the ball was out of the endzone.  Touchback.  Huge call.

It got a glance review and you know it. That play should have taken longer to look at and you know it. If you have never seen this tactic before, watch more football. I've seen it happen. During the timeout I guarantee that play would have gotten more scrutiny.

The reviews are instant and come from the NYC headquarters this year.  You are making a mountain out of a molehill. All scoring plays are reviewed before the extra pt takes place

You are giving too much credit. Even if it wasn't going to get overturned how can you justify the review process of scores when seeing the photo of Harvin? The NFL got it wrong because they are just glancing at the reviews. You are brushing aside an issue that affects the game.

Mistakes will always happen even with replay, always have and always will. The NFL must do better but the process is correct and saying Philbin should have called a timeout like that would have mattered is just incorrect.

Yes, the play got a review. But it did not get an appropriate review. Fact is, Watkins started losing the ball on the 2 and never regained possession. He pushed the loose ball into the pile on.

Then explain how it has happened in the past? I told you I've seen the strategy used.

I agree with MikeO: they don't decide to re-review plays if you call a timeout.  That's not how the system works.

I would certainly like to hear of any instance in which a play that is automatically reviewed by rule was somehow reviewed more because a timeout was called.  The only way you could even know this is if they "froze the kicker" on the extra point.

You guys can agree if you want but a timeout (maybe I should add that pressure from the coach is also necessary) can cause a review of a TD. I've seen it happen and both of you should have as well since it was a Miami game that I know of immediately where this happened (although the review did not work in Miami's favor).

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-10-24/miami-dolphins-team-report-tony-sparano-safe-for-another-week

Although this is not a scoring play Mike Holmgren has also used timeouts to get the booth to review plays (this was the final two minutes when replay are only from the booth so in essence it falls under the automatically reviewed heading if you ask me).

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2239970

You have NOT seen the strategy used on scoring plays because there is no strategy.  The scoring play is reviewed and it's decided.  Can't call time out and hope the review it twice. That has never ever happened in the NFL on a scoring play

That is the difference!!!! Scoring play reviews are held to different standards than regular plays!

Never??? You must have missed the link and story where it did happen on a TD play and also happened in the final two minutes when a coach could not call a challenge. Seriously dude, I can't spell it out any further than to say it happened and provide a link. You cannot be any more wrong at this point.

It get's clearer to me every year. The NFL follows a script for ratings, and point spread/gambling deals.

The rule has changed in recent years.  And since Holmgren has coached. And has been tweaked since Sparno was a head coach.  Your links are outdated

The wording in that article is strange; it says that Sparano's TO caused the replay official to review the play when he (the official) had originally determined that it did not need to be reviewed.  My understanding is that all scoring and turnover plays must be reviewed, period.

MikeO, the first cited Sparano incident as from 2011; the first year where all scoring plays were supposed to be reviewed.

I cannot remember the game but back when throwing the red flag on TDs caused the officials to not review the play anymore (that rule was since changed) I remember seeing a coach call a timeout rather than throw the flag. That way he got the message across to the officials that he wanted the play scrutinized rather than glossed over as was done in both these instances.

That was before all replays got moved to the NYC headquarters

Man you can never admit being wrong. First it never happened, but it did. Now it happened before and would be completely different now. Well, check this quote from an NFL exec saying a stoppage in the game in Seattle would have resulted in the overturn of the Harvin call. "All scoring plays are reviewed by the instant replay official, in conjunction with the NFL officiating staff in New York, and are not subject to a coach's challenge. Following the first quarter touchdown run by Percy Harvin, the game should have been stopped for a replay review, either by the replay official or by the officiating staff in New York.

"The touchdown was incorrectly confirmed, and as a result, the game was not stopped. Had the game been stopped for a replay review, the touchdown would have been reversed because Harvin stepped out of bounds at the San Diego 21-yard line."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/heat-index/2014/09/15/nfl-admits-mistake-on-percy-harvin-touchdown/15664375/

What is a better way of guaranteeing a stoppage of play than a timeout? Is this current enough for you?

They confirmed the score  with replay once, they thought it was a TD and the game wasn't stopped. It was wrong, they messed up. At the time they thought they got it right, which is why the game continued..but hindsight it was wrong.After it was confirmed, the play is over.  You don't get 2 reviews on one play. They just messed up. And just because you call timeout you expect the replay official in NYC to read your mind and know you want the play reviewed again? Not happening

Yes mind reading is exactly what a coach would expect. He would never be speaking with the officials about it at all. Get over your hubris and admit it has happened, can happen, and should have happened.

It happened around 10 years ago under the old system and you linked to it from 2005 some Mike Holmgren example that is outdated. It can't happen under the new system. You are interpreting the rule the incorrect way where as a head coach if you just stall cause you don't like the call on a scoring play or want another review of a scoring play, you start  calling timeouts or walk on the field to just stall and by time and by magic, the review people in NYC know what your doing with no communication and poof....you will get a 2nd or 3rd review of a play that has already been reviewed and confirmed. The reason they made the rule change is to prevent just that and what you want.

Here is how it works,....

1) team scores a TD
2) Play is automatically reviewed in NYC Headquarters immediately
 a) if play is confirmed, ref is notified, ball is spotted for the xtra point kick, start the play clock on to the next play
  b) if play is not confirmed, the ref is notified the ball isn't spotted for the xtra point and refs sort everything out with NYC Headquarters

You want some layer in-between a) and b) where a coach can call a timeout and stop the game ask for a 2nd review. Doesn't happen. Not in the rules. But you are entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to be wrong. Keep thinking Mike McCoy and Joe Philbin should have just started using timeouts yesterday to prevent bad TD calls to get that 2nd review which can't take place. You live in that bubble and enjoy it there!

I am not wrong the NFL exec even says in the Harvin situation if the game had been stopped it would have gotten a longer review and been overturned. Maybe you should write the NFL and tell them their statement is wrong because in no way would they ever review something further if play was halted. Until they retract that position I'll keep mine and argue, with the NFL's own statement behind me, on how they would review thing further with more time.

Also, at least be on point if you are going to be wrong. The TD example I provided is from the current set of rules where TDs are reviewed. It wasn't 2005 and it wasn't Holmgren. You are way off point there. It was pointed out by me and by Spider but you can't grasp it. IT HAS HAPPENED.

More talk about how a coach can influence the review process with timeouts.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/play-in-giants-game-shows-replay-review-system-isnt-working;_ylt=AwrTHRT9UxdU3z4ANFtXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyc21xbzRlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMTUEY29sbwNncTEEdnRpZANVSUMxXzE-?urn=nfl,wp15595

Here is an article that states in many instances the replay assistant did not call for a full review of a scoring play. If it isn't a full review don't you think play stoppage and complaints could cause a little further look?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/03/14/competition-committee-proposes-changes-to-the-red-flag-rule/

A play,....yes with under 2 min in the half or game. NOT A SCORING PLAY!!! That has a different and separate procedure

The only way to stop it is to not mess up the call in NYC Headquarters to begin with, to say the scoring play isn't confirmed and halt the actino...so what he is saying is correct. How you are interpreting it is incorrect

this mishap(s) is a direct result of the NYC review process.  There are far too many plays to be reviewed in a central headquarters.  No one can review better than the official on the field.  I feel like this NYC review process allows for more errors like this because it prohibits people from dedicating the time required to really look at a play in detail.

We're going to see a break down of the replay system this year, and it started this week on these two plays.

There are, at most, 11 games being played at any given moment (usually less than that).  I'm sure the NYC office can spare a dozen people for replay review.

This replay system the NFL has adopted is the same the NHL uses and they are going off the NHL blueprint. Where every replay goes to the central headquarters in NYC. They have seen how the NHL runs it and how it works. Granted 2 very different sports and what not but this isn't some untested system.

Dude I'm well aware of the NHL system. They have MAYBE 1 or 2 goals per night to review. There are about 10-15 plays, between all scoring plays and all turnovers, PER GAME. There are 10-11 games going on at a time. Not even including coach's challenges and inside-2-minutes reviews... there is no comparison between the magnitude of how many plays the NFL needs to review compared to the NHL.

With all those reviews going on at once, it wouldn't surprise me if they just look quickly and say "yup looks good" in the interest of saving time.

No real bad calls this week. Unless I missed hearing about one.

Looks like the NFL refs got their act together for at least 1 week

There were quite a few headscratchers in the Broncos @ Seahawks game. Sure, no one stepped out of bounds and then scored a touchdown and the worst calls were not reviewable. Still, when a defenders jumps into the neutral zone with his hole head and the ref throws a flag, you'd expect it to be a good call... but, no, after a 10 minute on-field conference reminiscent of the substitute refs from a few years ago, the flag is picked up with the explanation that the guy wasn't in the neutral zone after all. (Then why was the flag thrown? And since only 1 guy has responsibility for this, and this was the guy who threw the flag, why didn't he either stick to his call or pick it up immediately. No one else could possibly have had anything to contribute.)

Contact to quarterbacks' helmets is apparently not really being enforced this year. Late hits also don't seem to be as rigorously applied. (The only thing I mind is the inconsistency.)

Those things are all judgment calls, though*... not something you would look at in slow motion and determine, "Yes, possession was lost at the 1.5 yard line."

*you cannot use video replay to determine offsides, silly as that may seem