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They used those weapons against peaceful protestors in Lafayette Square.  But restrained is used against coup invasion.

Antifa just took over the US Capitol building.

...oh, wait, sorry.  I mean the proud MAGA patriots, complete with Confederate flags.  (It took 155 years, but the Confederacy finally stormed Congress!)

This is the logical outcome of Trumpism.  He's a traitor and they are all traitors.  Try to imagine BLM invading the United States Congress without being riddled with bullets.  You can't.

I have been watching all day.  This is total insanity.

I think that it ultimately might be good, because it really is all of the bullshit come to a clear, horrific outcome.  This may get worse and more violent -- it may die out without more issue, but either way, the result will be the same.  Then the Republican party will have to figure out what they're going to be.  The fight isn't us vs. them.  It's them vs. them.

I've had it on, This is complete stupidity.

If these were BLM protesters a bunch of people would be dead already. But nothing says privilege like white men storming the capitol and taking selfies with the police.

on another note .. this is specifically the "fa" that alot of people are "anti"

In other countries, this would be called an attempted coup.

That is what it is in this country too. 

https://mobile.twitter.com/RepKinzinger/status/1346937986907299843

Republican congressman calling it a coup attempt and laying the blame squarely at Trump's feet, calling the acts of Trump what they are "these treasonous acts".

Remember kids, an attempted coup of our seat of government is a total nothingburger and you're being hysterical for making a big deal about it... unless it succeeds, in which case there's also nothing to worry about (any more).

There are some pretty disturbing videos around that sure as heck seem to show the officers on guard outside the Capitol just letting crowds through the barriers, even helping them move the barriers. These are short clips and there's not enough context to be absolutely sure what's going on, but they look pretty bad and you have to wonder why insurgents storming the Capitol with both houses in session were not impeded in any way.

I wonder what difference there might be the reason for the different treatment when compared to BLM.

Here you go:
https://mobile.twitter.com/JoshuaPotash/status/1346931235176783873

Here another fun video of Capital Police taking a selfie with people who have invaded Congress to overthrow our government:
https://mobile.twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/1346920198461419520

And in case you forgot, this is what the steps of the Capitol looked like when black people were protesting against police brutality:
https://mobile.twitter.com/williamlegate/status/1346904942666244109/photo/1

Trump accomplished what Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee couldn't: a Confederate banner flying free in the halls of Congress.

(https://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/were-i-a-black-man-in-america-right-now-600x415.jpg)

This country was already well on it's way to being a banana republic.  Yesterday put an exclamation point on it. 

I find it very weird that there's no response from the police.  Regardless of who did it or intent, how did unarmed people get inside the capital building with very little pushback?  Why has there been no press conference from the chief of police to explain the breakdown, additional measures of protection, etc.  Whenever there's anything even remotely like this, there are press conferences all day long -- think what happened on Christmas day with the Nashville RV explosion.  This was thousands of people storming the goddamn capital.  ...how is there not a word from anyone about it?

And who shot that woman?  A person is dead and there's no statement?  Something is weird about all of this.

What are the odds that the very few people arrested yesterday receive a presidential pardon in the next few days?

I would place it at even money.

The woman was the first to try to climb through a broken door window into a protected area of the house, she was shot by capitol police in the chest.  No-one else tried to climb through that window.

While this is probably true (though I think she got shot in the neck), is there any statement on this or is it just your assessment from watching videos?  Normally, when someone attempting to overthrow the government is killed breaching a government building by state or federal police, there'd be some official explanation.

I watched the video so it's a description of my observation.

The end result here is that a MAGA hat to me is no different than a swastica armband.  I see alot of people that are excusing these domestic terrorists by saying they were lied to by Trump or they were victims of conspiracy thinking.  I don't really care. They support and defend terrorists and have no place in american society.

If you support Trump and think these people were justified, then you're just as bad, and can go fuck yourself.

The police just released a statement, explaining this woman's death.  It's long -- they only read excerpts on the news.

The security is much higher today.  Something is amiss.  How were these people allowed to just walk into the building without pushback?

It must be hard being this unhinged.  I'm in no way defending what happened yesterday, but come on man.

At one point sure, a maga hat was a political symbol of support .. not one i agreed with but whatever.

But after years of this bullshit and then what happened yesterday by the maga crowd. It's now a deliberate statement that you support the violent overthrow of our government in order to install a dictator. So is it really that different than the nazis in 1933? doesn't look like it to me.  Either way, fuck those people and fuck people that wear that hat or fly a trump flag after yesterday.

ah the Nazis, of course.  That old argument.  Nazi nazi nazi...everything is the Nazis, or compared to the Nazis.

If you are still wearing a MAGA hat on Jan 7th AFTER the events of Jan 6, that is no different than wearing a swastika armband.

This not to say everyone who voted for Trump is a Nazi.  But if you are still supporting overthrowing the democratically elected Biden Administration which is what that hat stands for TODAY, then it is really no different than wearing such an armband.  Continuing to support Trump’s attempted coup is treason.  

those who fail to understand history are doomed to repeat it

Dave, I don't really understand what's so hard to understand. The security wasn't there because they weren't seen to be the same threat as others. That was obviously a mistake, but there's no mystery here. We've seen the videos of the officers allowing them past the gates. They obviously didn't think they weren't going to have a violent confrontation. Misguided though that idea was.

The answer to why the police acted differently on Jan 6 than June 1 is black and white.

Symbols change -- the confederate flag flown today has a very specific meaning that doesn't have to do with States rights.

If you continue to fly a flag or wear a Trump hat (he's not the president, he's not running for anything, he's a disgraced politician), you're making a new statement.

Well said. I'll add that if you don't see the difference you are part of the problem and not part of the solution.

As I have already said the answer is black and white.  If you can’t see that you are the problem.

If you learn nothing else from yesterday, it should prove beyond all doubt that the BLM complaints are 100% valid.

The capital police leadership doesn’t view white nationalists to be a threat because many of them sympathize with white nationalist. 

The cops taking selfies weren’t deescalating the situations, they were taking photos with people they sympathize with.  Just like the cops that took a knee with BLM protesters were acknowledging the racism that exists in policing. 

The police leadership weren’t caught off guard, they were complicit.

I agree with a lot of what Maine says but Hoodie has points also. The lack of preparation from the top put the guys on the ground in a no win spot. If there was enough of a show of force from the start it is a lot easier situation than waiting for backup while outnumbered.
Much easier to stand your ground initially than to try to recapture it. I'm just glad things didn't get worse yesterday.

^^^ And BLM protested because they were tired of getting shot by law enforcement, while the Trumpians protested because their hero couldn't admit that he lost and created crazy conspiracy theories to get them riled up.

These are not equally compelling reasons for a protest.

Okay then you understand.  Note the word “if” in my statement.

The difference between Jan 6 and June 1 is black and white.  *IF* you can’t see that then you are the problem. 

He's saying that if you can't tell that the difference between those two situations stems from race, then you (or one who doesn't see that) is part of the problem.

Since it goes along with the thread, and I post on Facebook so infrequently... Here is my post this morning about what happened to me while the DC insurrection was happening yesterday:

Still trying to get a grip on what went down yesterday...not in DC, but in West Boca Raton, Florida. I stopped in a Dunkin Donuts on the way home to get an iced coffee, which is pretty much standard for me during the week. I walked in, and the TV on the wall has CBS or NBC's coverage of the DC madness. Standing there, watching the TV, was a Broward County deputy, in full uniform. He had a look on his face that I  construed to be some sort of mix of anger and disappointment.

I was, at the very least, half wrong in that assessment...

I decided to be polite and social and say something to the deputy, so I looked at him and said "Did you ever think, in our lifetime, we'd see armed Americans storming the Capitol?"

To say I was shocked by his response would be doing a disservice to anything that has ever shocked anybody, anywhere...ever. He looked at me, his voice dropped into a semi-growl and he said...

"It's about goddamn time."

At this moment, I realized how dangerous a minefield I had inadvertently wandered into. Not only was he not shocked by the lawlessness, but he was in full support of what I considered to be armed insurrection and treason. So, basically, my political diametric opposite, but with a gun and a badge.

Normally, when someone says something to me, I have multiple responses ready immediately. That was not the case yesterday. After staring at him for a full 3 seconds, I simply said "Really? Well, I can certainly respect your opinion." I then walked up to the counter and placed my order.

The deputy didn't say another word, just stared at the TV on the wall for another minute or so until they had his order ready, and then he left.

Really not sure how I feel about that incident...disappointed? A little confused? Perhaps a little angry?  Still working that out, I guess...

You guys really need to get away from the TVs. Like Maine said it is very suspect these extremists basically just waltzed in. Almost like it was meant to happen.

As well BLM extremists have burned many cities and taken over government buildings with no resistance. I don’t give a rats ass why you do something illegal it’s a crime. In my personal opinion in this day and time if the media is reporting it or a politician is saying it then we are being manipulated. I have little faith in our republic these days.

Btw ... just as the stimulus bill shows it isn’t the down and out poor people getting our money. It’s the foreign interests who are making our politicians rich that are getting our money and both Republicans and Democrats are dirty as hell.

I can’t say for sure but I do have a ton of law enforcement friends so I’ll give it a try. I’m just guessing he’s been attacked so much in the last few years that he has lost all respect for our politicians. These men and women have endured quite a lot and had to bite their tongues.

^^^ Perhaps continuing to bite his tongue, at least while talking to a complete stranger civilian in a public place, might have been a better...or more professional choice. I certainly did not come away with more respect for law enforcement.


Would a ton of law enforcement officials be 5 really fat people, or a dozen smaller ones?

Then get ready for this twist: what if the guy who is responsible for providing a large force to suppress such a riot (like the force that we already saw back in June when black people were protesting police brutality) is actually the same guy who SENT that mob there in the first place, specifically and explicitly to prevent Congress from counting the Electoral College votes that will confirm his successor?

It's almost like yesterday wasn't an accident!

Feel free to share pictures of BLM rioters with their feet up on some governor's desk after taking over the state capitol, because I can't find one.

As I mentioned before, we already have an existing apples-to-apples comparison here: the legions of troopers in full riot gear in the Capitol mall back in June when BLM was protesting, vs. the "suspiciously small" law enforcement presence yesterday.

Just in case anyone doesn't appreciate how close we came yesterday to becoming a dictatorship:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/06/politics/pence-national-guard/index.html

tl;dr:  As the situation escalated, Congress contacted the Dept. of Defense and requested the DC National Guard to be deployed. DoD declined, ostensibly under orders.  Pence contacted DoD and instructed them to deploy the National Guard (to be clear: the Vice President does not have this power) and military leadership elected to side with Pence and Congress over the President.  This was a legitimate coup attempt, executed by the head of our government.

Heads.
Spikes.
Walls.

In more ways than one.  When the DOD creased taking orders from the CIC and started taking orders from the VP there was by the very definition a coup. 

I knew this liberal circle jerk would be especially good. Thanks, you guys never let me down.

Seriously? You are arguing semantics about something this serious? That’s why it’s pointless to discuss anything with many of you guys.  Even with the internet censorship you know you will find hundreds of images of burning Gov and public buildings. In fact you will find compete police dept takeovers where people were killed weekly but yet police were kept out so as not to incite the “protestors”. They are all extremist criminals. I don’t give a crap who they vote for.

The guy equating a Minneapolis precinct police station with the literal seat of our federal government accuses me of "arguing semantics."  Cute.

It's crystal clear that there is literally nothing that Trump could do to cause him to lose your support.  You and yours will make any excuse necessary to rationalize or downplay anything he does.  You're fine with whatever it takes to stay in power, votes be damned.

The irony is that for all of y'all's bleating about how the 2nd Amendment is needed to prevent tyranny, yesterday proved that I was right to say it's irrelevant.  If you're a white right-winger, police will remove the barricades to let you in and take selfies with you, as you invade the Capitol and elected representatives are hiding under tables fearful for their lives.  And you didn't need a single gun to do it!

Meanwhile, putting a pistol in the hand of a BLM protestor won't do a damn thing when there are tanks rolling down the streets.

Regarding the police response:

There are some videos appearing to show people being let through barricades, but a lot of context is missing and at least for the most popular one the guy who shot the video says that the crowd basically pushed their way through (as opposed to being let through). We also don't know what orders were handed down, how the officers were briefed etc.

I've seen very little in the videos that really points to any specific failures by the officers on the ground. There were plenty of failures in the overall response, but the distinction is, IMHO, critical. The officers inside protecting those who hadn't been evacuated have, by all accounts, acted very professionally and courageously under extreme pressure. Short videos don't show the whole picture and while it would have been the only sensible thing to have hundreds of well-armed officers / guardsmen stationed outside the Capitol, that is not a decision that can be made by the officers on the ground. They had to live with and navigate the situation they were put in by their superiors. Nothing egregious stands out in any of the footage I've seen regarding their conduct.

The leadership, however, was disastrous. Aside from the obvious 20/20 hind-sight, there were a ton of warnings, including from current and former intelligence officials, and the Capitol Police reportedly rejected at least two offers of assistance - one from the Pentagon offering National Guard manpower in the days leading up to the (legally) announced demonstration and one from the FBI as the demonstration turned mob and descended on the Capitol.

I have a reasonable amount of confidence (perhaps naively) that the truth, whatever it is, about these decisions will come out in the days, weeks, and months ahead, but such an investigation takes time and while we should certainly hold leaders accountable, we should refrain from condemning the officers and other responders. Last I heard, 15 officers were hospitalized following the attack, 1 of whom died, and as many as 60 sustained injuries.

While holding our leaders accountable, let's also appreciate the job these people did under very difficult circumstances.

Why is it that every single fucking video of police officers gets this response?

The video shows a cop pepper spraying a BLM protester in handcuffs....but what you didn’t see off camera was.....

The video shows a cop shooting a black man in the back....but what you didn’t see was...

The video shows police take down a barrier down and wave Trump rioters into the capital....but what you didn’t see was....

The video shows the police posing with a terrorist .....but what you didn’t see....

The video shows white cops buddying up with the terrorist and letting their black coworkers get assaulted by the mob....but you didn’t see...

That is all bullshit.  Show me video that justifies it. 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I always try to get the full context instead of judging events based on 5, 10, 15 second clips from a random angle.


Are you saying that you cannot imagine a situation where that would be acceptable? (Going by your 1 sentence description only, if the video showed a completely pacified individual, then it would clearly not be acceptable.)


Unless that person was running towards someone else with, say, a gun drawn and reasonable belief they would should that someone, then no, shooting someone in the back is NEVER acceptable and the perpetrator should be charged with first degree murder.


See, that's what one of them looked like initially, but it actually wasn't possible to tell who was doing the barrier moving and the person shooting the video said it was the protesters. That's what I mean by context. It also wasn't at all clear which areas were being "granted" access to. From one of the other clips I saw, it appeared that the mob (at this point still "just" a mob) was already beyond the barrier and unless you have some aerial footage... We also don't know what INSTRUCTIONS were given. I am perfectly willing to criticize the overall response in a myriad of ways, but if you want to criticize an *individual*, that would require more context. Even for an individual *action*, more context would often be required (not always - and criticizing an *action* and criticizing an *individual* isn't the same).


Yeah, I don't like that shit. It happens at all sorts of demonstrations with all sorts of people. Some of it is genuine sympathy for whatever "cause" and some of it is a deliberate deescalation technique. Even in the latter case, it often rubs me the wrong way and although I'm a big proponent of deescalation, I would rather see other techniques employed. I'm not sure I'm capable of telling which case is which based on a still-photo or short video clip, but considering I've not been hesitant to call the attack "terrorism", "insurrection", and "sedition", I would clearly have a huge problem with any officer having (even without expressing) sympathy for that "cause".


I didn't see any video that showed anything like that. Link?

Except you do see a knife, and the police officer saying drop the knife...

I don't care if he has a rocket launcher. If he isn't an immediate danger to anyone, shooting should never be considered - let alone be considered lawful.

Yeah, it's not like the van he was getting into couldn't be used as a weapon either, not like cops have never been run over before.  It's pretty simple, if you have a weapon and the cops tell you to drop it and you don't, that's on you.  I don't know why you want to defend a rapist so badly.

I have no desire to defend anyone. If the guy is guilty, we have a criminal justice system for that.

I am opposed to shooting people in the back, though.

(And your "supposition of future events" is just stupid - can't shoot someone for what might occur sometime in the future.)

I don't think you understand what we are getting at. Yes, it was very suspect and the implication is that those responsible for the protection of the Capitol were flawed in their planning. Why do you think that was? The answer is obvious. It's because they didn't perceive a large crowd of trump supporters as dangerous. They didn't have any trouble perceiving a large crowd of BLM supporters as dangerous. What's the clear implication of that? That for them BLM supporters were implicitly dangerous but Trump supporters weren't. So now that we have seen what happened do you think those that planned for the security around the Capitol were CLEARLY biased in their planning for it? If you don't believe they were, then you have your head in the sand and don't want to see the truth. Bias was the clear reason for the difference. That's it. Simple as that. There's no mystery here. Anyone can see it. I certainly didn't need CNN to point it out to me. I would have had the same thought if I watched it on TV or was there in person.

I'm sorry, Maine, but I can't grant you either of these points.

It would be one thing to step away or withdraw for fear of their own safety.  But taking selfies (or letting people in) is several steps too far.

I will concede that the police were grossly understaffed and what seems like intentionally unprepared for what was coming.  And they were denied help when things got out of control.  The whole thing was an utter failure of policing, both in preparation and execution.

Let’s assume that the capitol police were in fact unable to prevent the breach.   Why once backup arrived were the invaders able to leave rather than be arrested?  This would have prevented the theft of congressional computers that for all we know are currently being analyzed this very moment in Pyongyang, Moscow or Beijing.  The capitol now needs to be completely searched for bugs and could be compromised.

(https://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/respite-ish-open-thread-e1610142942683.jpg)

An interesting analysis based on security experts from US allies that train alongside US agencies for these exact situations:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1?amp&r=US&IR=T

Woman with ‘Don’t tread on me’ flag trampled to death at Capitol riot (https://www.dailydot.com/debug/woman-with-dont-tread-on-me-flag-trampled-to-death-at-capitol-riot/)

Newly emerging details from Wednesday’s U.S. Capitol riot in Washington, D.C. that left five people dead included a cruelly ironic one—a woman who died in a crowd stampeding to enter the Capitol was carrying a “Don’t Tread on Me” flag.

According to a news report from CBS 46 in Atlanta, 34-year-old Rosanne Boyland of Kennesaw, Georgia, had traveled to D.C. with a friend, Justin Winchell, to attend President Donald Trump's "Save America" rally.

The two of them went to the Capitol after Trump's speech, following his advice to cheer on the lawmakers supporting his efforts. According to Winchell, Boyland was trampled in the crush of people attempting to breach security to enter the building.

CBS 46 said Winchell noted that a few demonstrators began pushing people. “They basically created a panic, and the police, in turn, push back on them, so people started falling," he explained.

The report then described the crowd as "clashing with police, trampling over one another, pinning Boyland to the ground."

“I put my arm underneath her and was pulling her out and then another guy fell on top of her, and another guy was just walking [on top of her],” Winchell told the reporter. “There were people stacked two [to] three deep…people just crushed.”

---

A tragic and unnecessary loss of life.  But at least on the positive side, it was a valuable lesson for her frie...

Despite the tragedy that cost his friend her life, Winchell didn't blame Trump for what happened when the reporter put that question to him. Instead, he shifted the blame to "antifa" and other instigators.

“She was killed by an incited event and it was not incited by Trump supporters,” Winchell asserted.

...never mind.

The Trump administration has generated more headlines that I read and say “that can’t be true that has to be an ‘Onion’ piece” than any other administration.

Just read on facebook that Ashli Babbitt had retweeted a message that “Traitors should be lined up and shot”. 

It won’t happen, but I want to see every “good amurican” that breached the Capital executed. Start with the guys who were waving the Confederate flag. Why these “I know my rights!” “Amuricans” weren’t shot like fish in a barrel as soon as they broke through I’ll never understand.

Not lined up and shot. But hung from the neck until dead. Publicly would be nice.
Or even better. Most of these folks are the anti masker you can’t tell me what to do. Jesus will protect me crowd. Forcibly give them the vaccine. Then hang them from the neck until dead.

Stink,

I am not advocating capital punishment for all of the rioters.  Babbott was the woman who was shot.  I just thought it was quite ironic that she tweets that traitors should be shot (referring to anyone  who accepted the results of the election) and then subsequently gets shot while committing an act of treason.

A few reasons.  As a whole, society doesn't view large gangs of white people as menacing as large groups of black people.
Trump's involvement + legal permits gave this a feeling of legitimacy.  There was a permission structure for normal Republicans to think that an assault on the vote-counting was a normal political-disagreement, rather than fringe political craziness and a coup attempt.
DC isn't specifically a state, so there are a few issues with who is to respond/protect/plan for this.
The president bears some responsibility to respond to a crisis of this nature, which of course he didn't do, since he was in on it.
There are political motivations to excuse the president's actions and bury your head in the sand when the incitement is and has been happening right under your nose.
Most of the police themselves voted for Trump and are sympathetic to his cause, particular those responsible for organizing defense of the Capital.
We're boiling the frog.  Trump is always saying outlandish shit that we've gotten so used to it, that we don't take it as seriously as we should.



If Al Sharpton was busing in thousands of people, predominantly militant black men to protest the counting of votes at the Capital building, then gave that speech in the morning, none of this shit would've happened.

We would.  If Capitol police announced if you enter the capitol we shoot and shot the first one to enter between 1 and 10 people would have died (vs 5)

Many on the right would have (falsely)compared this to Kent State.  Most on both sides would have backed the police.  The left would blame Trump for inciting the incident and the right would justify it as a natural reaction to voter fraud. ( no different) A few on the left would call on republicans in joining the BLM’s call to deemphasize military tactics  and increase deescalation tactics. We would not have to be concerned that classified computer are now in the hads of our enemies.

The fallout would have been different, but not worse. Shooting might have cost a few extra lives or saved up to 4.  

(Ex) Chief of Capitol Police Force requested National Guard reinforcements 6 times and was consistently rebuffed. I don't know the exact command structure, though, so exactly who is directly to blame for that aspect, I don't know. (Certainly, anyone "higher up" in either Senate or the White House would have been able to apply pressure in either direction and in some cases even order it, but that doesn't necessarily mean those individuals stopped the Chief of Police's specific request.)

https://www.npr.org/2021/01/11/955548910/ex-capitol-police-chief-rebuffs-claims-national-guard-was-never-called-during-ri

There were 1400 officers of the Capitol Police on hand. A much more visible deployment would almost certainly have helped without resorting to actually shooting anyone.

True.  I am simply saying that a shoot to kill to prevent the insurrection would not have been worse than the present situation. 

I don't disagree, but then I always prefer non-violent responses for longer than most. I do think that falling back to the entrances and drawing firearms would have been appropriate, however. Basically, barricade the doors and subdue those who get through (with as little force as needed, but that includes lethal force). That's basically what the officers on the balcony that wasn't evacuated did, but that's NOT what happened elsewhere.

I agree.  Fall back to the doors.  First line use tasers and mace.  Second line has pistols drawn to shoot anyone doesn't retreat after being maced or tasered. 

Serious question.  I assume you are aware that the vast majority of murders of black activists and black church bombings in the South during Jim Crow and Civil Right amEras went unsolved yet if I white was murdered almost immediately a black was arrested and charged.  Do you know the reason behind the very different outcomes? 

They wouldn't shoot their own.

Serious security lapses in government buildings in DC are astounding.  There have been over a dozen breaches at the White House that didn't just get onto White House property but actually into the White House itself.  The most recent one that I recall was this one:

September 19, 2014 – Omar Gonzalez jumped the fence from the Pennsylvania Avenue side of the White House and entered through the North Portico doors. Upon entering he overpowered a Secret Service officer and ran through most of the main floor before he was tackled by a counter-assault agent.

Proper protocols and established procedures are in place.  However the number of times that these protocols and procedures are not adhered to is amazing. 

Forces weren’t pulled away.  However, no additional forces were added.  You had what you would have on a normal Wednesday in anticipation that biggest problem was needing to tell teenagers they can’t skateboard down the capitol steps.  And the size of the force was adequate for that.  

Also you assume the people in charge are professionals.  Trump doesn’t appoint people based on competence, but on willingness to bootlick.  Anyone who allows proper professional behavior to get in the way of the President’s agenda is fired and replaced with someone less competent.  The president’s agenda was to have the vote disrupted.

As for the National Guard from MD and VA they were waiting for Acting Sec Def Miller who was only on the job since Espy was fired. 

I'm not suggesting you're being insensitive to the race stuff, Maine.  I get what you're asking, I think.  I'll also try another way:


I think that your premise that the Capitol can handle that kind of pressure on any given day.  I think that premise is false.  I don't think there's enough staff to fend off an angry mob of thousands on a random Wednesday.  But, with foresight and prep and increased security members, they no doubt could.

My whole point is that because of all of the reasons I mentioned in my previous thread, this mob wasn't a perceived threat so those additional measures weren't taken.

My point is that the mob was intended to be an actual threat and not just a perceived one and those measures were actively prevented not passively not taken.

I think I was partly under the same delusion as Maine. Not that the regular Wednesday contingent would necessarily be enough, but that the "everyone, including the VP and both chambers, is here" situation would result in an increase in security, in and of itself (even without an announced demonstration).

I didn't think such a force would be able to hold off thousands indefinitely, but certainly for long enough for reinforcements to arrive.

Imagine the number of covert troops an enemy state would be able to muster on US soil... I could easily imagine a few hundred very well armed... Imagine them storming the Capitol.

I really hope it turns out that the doors were deliberately opened / held open, just because the alternative is even more scary.

And I don't buy that the regular security was worse due to any direct or indirect Trump influence. Lack of preparedness, response, etc, sure, that's plausible, but I doubt the day-to-day security was affected.

^^^^^^ everyone, including the VP and both chambers, is here"

Only one more person than a normal Wednesday.

They aren’t typically in the same room, but if the house and senate are both in session then they are down the hall from each other. 

I just had a client cancel because he said at 3:30 today, Trump was coming online to declare war with China to take back the country.  And he's so excited and it's all because of Trump.



Holy shit, man.

Mike you have 27 minutes to invoke Art25.

Assuming your client got this information from facebook or some lunatic right wing website.  Or maybe Trump called your client personally to let him know his intentions because they are besties.

It's after 4 .. maybe call your client back and ask if he really wants to cancel still ?

Reports are that Trump's going on Fox News later today.

Is the warranty on my Chinese electronics purchases still going to be valid?

NPS should announce that protesters count towards the “official “ crowd size counts followed by Biden announcing he is looking forward to a larger crowd than Trump had.  That should keep the idiots away.

Not to beat a dead horse but, in June security was tighter around the Lincoln memorial than there was around the capital in January. 

How out of touch do you have to be to think the BLM movement was going to vandalize Lincoln?  Yeah they had damaged a few statues of famous civil war personalities.  But if you thought Lincoln was at risk, from BLM, you should not be doing risk assessments.

How out of touch are you?

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Lincoln-statue-at-SF-City-Hall-defaced-amid-15832280.php (https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Lincoln-statue-at-SF-City-Hall-defaced-amid-15832280.php)

Paywall.  Was he defaced by BLM?  Or white supremacists?  Or native american activist opposed to Lincoln’s treatment of natives?  Or by white supremacist pretending to by native american activists to “whatabout” the discussion of confederate monuments in our society?

I am guessing the last one.

Whatever lies you have to tell yourself

Why 106 was worse than 911.

George Bush didn’t tell al Quida that he loved them.

Laura Bush didn’t send her to condolences to the family of Mohammad Atta.

No Americans cheered as the buildings burned on 911 (Even though Trump falsely claims otherwise)

What happened last week was the most horrific event in US history since  April 12, 1861.  Maybe even worse. 

You're certifiably insane

First off it's funny that the truth is now coming out that dozens of Capitol police have either been suspended or under investigation for fraternizing with protestors. In fact we've seen videos of some police waving them in and or taking selfies. Not quite the dangerous rioting portrayed by the media. Go figure.

I didn't write this below but I swear it's been my sentiment since I first saw this chaos from my hospital bed. I believe anyone who did storm the Capitol should be arrested but then again I've been for arresting violent protestors in all situations. The hypocrisy of politics is the saddest thing in our country whether it be red or blue.

Why is Broken Glass on Capitol Hill more appalling to you than the Broken Glass that shattered the dreams of minority business owners all over the Country?

Why is a 5 hour Protest on Capitol Hill more appalling to you than the 7 month long destructive siege of our Country?

Why is some minor cosmetic damage to the Capitol building more appalling to you than 150 Federal Buildings damaged, and thousands of businesses burned down or destroyed?

Where was the outrage and disgust when more than 30 people died and 1000 people were injured and beaten during 7 long months of “mostly peaceful protests”, including old People and Police Officers?

Where was the outrage and disgust when US cities across the Country were plagued with looting, violence, arson, vandalism, and damages totaling in the Billions?!!
 
Why is it ok for AOC, Pelosi, Maxine Watters, Kamala Harris, etc to call for uprisings and support unrest in the streets, but when Trump calls on his supporters to “march over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard”, he is made out to be the Anti-Christ?!!
 
Maybe because it’s a “Manufactured” Outrage designed to further divide an already completely fractured Country.
Open your eyes America to the real villains of our Country: 1)The crooked career Politicians who are sending your much needed tax dollars overseas to be laundered back into their own pockets, and 2) the Fake News Media who cares more about dividing us than they do about telling The Truth.

Wake up, this is not about losing an Election, this is about losing our Country.
And we should be fighting against these Evils instead of fighting each other...before there is nothing left of our Country to fight over.

^ That's just batshit insane.

A mob attacking the Capitol, trying to prevent the orderly transition of government following a democratically held election that Republican-appointed officials have called "the most secure in history", with the entire Congress and Senate in session, with the Vice President in attendance.... attacking that site is the same as attacking the local Starbucks?

f*ck off.

The police didn't make it less dangerous...they simply facilitated the danger and were complicit in it.

The plan was to kidnap and take hostages...doesn't that seem dangerous to you?

Wait...don't answer. I know, I know...those guys were just carrying those zip-ties around so they could keep their groceries from the Capitol Hill Cantina fresh?

The GOP has now become the party of Traitors...congratulations on your new position.

A police officer was beaten to death with a fire extinguisher.  Many more ended up in the hospital.  You cannot downplay this invasion.

There is a world of difference between:
a) rioters breaking into a Target and looting TVs
b) a mob violently invading the seat of our government SPECIFICALLY to prevent Congress from certifying the results of a Presidential election, on the direct orders of the man who lost that election

It's absurd to pretend they are equivalent.

Not to mention that entire stupid passage that CF posted is just a huge blob of whataboutism.

Maybe that'll be my new years resolution Dave. I won't accept or respect any sort of whataboutism .. either your ideas have merit or they don't.

Maine ... There is a difference between understanding and agreeing with. I'm all for marching and whatever but when you damage private or public property then you have crossed the line. In my mind a law is a law regardless of who commits it. In order to justify breaking the law you have to believe some people are above the law regardless of why. I do not feel that way at all. In the best sports analogy of all time from Coach Scolinos and I paraphrase ... home plate is 17" for everyone and they don't widen it for people who can't hit it regardless of what league you are in.

“If I am lucky,” Coach Scolinos concluded, “you will remember one thing from this old coach today. It is this: if we fail to hold ourselves to a higher standard, a standard of what we know to be right; if we fail to hold our spouses and our children to the same standards, if we are unwilling or unable to provide a consequence when they do not meet the standard; and if our schools and churches and our government fail to hold themselves accountable to those they serve, there is but one thing to look forward to …”

With that, he held home plate in front of his chest, turned it around, and revealed its dark black backside.

“… dark days ahead.”

CF, this "breaking the law is breaking the law" take is pretty weak.  It appears that you're using that as a way to avoid addressing the attempted overthrow of our democracy by saying last year's protests were just as bad, but if the point you are making is that you condemn all protests that break the law, what is your position on MLK?  He was arrested 25 times for intentionally breaking the law (the "disobedience" part of "civil disobedience").

One of the terrorists is getting organic food in prison.  Just my imagination that there is a double standard on treatment of the insurrectionists and BLM protesters.

No true manly right winger eats organic food.  That guy is clearly an agent provocateur.   ;D

The inaccuracies are astounding.

1. No one is in prison yet. Prison would require a trial. He is in jail.
2. He isn't getting organic food. He is refusing to eat because they don't offer him organic food.

Looks like some members of Congress invited these rioters to the Capitol on January 5th to aid in planning for the invasion. (https://www.myveronanj.com/2021/01/12/sherrill-hints-that-some-reps-may-have-aided-capitol-rioters/)  Direct quote from Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill (D NJ-11) (emphasis added):

“We can’t have democracy, if members of Congress are actively, helping the president overturn the election results. And so not only do I intend to see that the President is removed, and never runs for office again and doesn’t have access to classified material. I also intend to see that those members of Congress who abetted him, those members of Congress who had groups coming to the Capitol that I saw on January 5th in reconnaissance for the next day. Those members of Congress that incited this violent crowd, those members of Congress that attempted to help our president undermine our democracy. I’m going to say that they’re held accountable, and if necessary, ensure that they don’t serve in Congress.”

Unsurprisingly, it turns out that the people who have been defending the flag of the Confederacy all these years have been waging a second civil war.  The rest of us just didn't know about it.

1.  Whatever,

2.  You are incorrect.  A judge ordered he was to receive organic food. 

If he was just doing a hunger strike,  I wouldn’t care.  The fact his temper tantrum was successful is another example of these terrorist being coddled and the injustices of our justice system. 

I heard it was some loophole because Shamanism is his religion, and he required organic food, which is ridiculous but whatever.

Per democratic colleagues, some republican representatives thought Trump deserved to be impeached and wanted to vote to impeach but voted “no” because the feared it would result in their own murder or the murder of their family.

Let that sink in for a moment.   

Although we disagree on just about everything, I actually do admire your passion for your causes.  Most people are just ambivalent about society so it is cool that you care so much.  However, this post was some D4L level crazy talk.  What happened at the Capitol was abhorrent and it disgusted me.  But to say it was worse than 911 is letting your personal feelings get in the way of logic and understanding of history. 

Not to mention incredibly offensive.

Understand the context here:

This is not worse in terms of death toll or horrific suffering.

But what he's saying is that 9/11 occurred and everyone knew that it was horrible and fucked up and we all banded together to recognize how awful it was and to root that stuff out.  It came from outside, though.  Even though the result was worse, it was clearly THEM doing it to us.

This was US doing it to US.  And now, there is a lack of accountability and excusing away.  Senators went back on the floor minutes after this happened and continued the lie that led to it.  We're learning that these people were off-duty cops, sons of the elite, politicians are doing the "yeah, but whatabout"...these are people that walk among us, not a foreign invader out to destroy us.

This is "worse" in the way that someone killing their own child is worse than a random serial killer killing the whole family.

I get where he's coming from. "worse" is a subjective measure tho, so if he feels it's worse that the president of the united states and his allies tried staging a Coup by relying on a bunch of deluded morons and deliberate deplorables then that's his opinion.

I remember 9/11 vividly, like I assume most everyone does, it was jarring in how immediate it was and how unexpected it was. Contrast that to 1/6 which was the culmination of a frog being boiled in a pot of trumpy water. It was much more gradual, so people's reactions who are in that trumpy water are much more muted. I say both were horrendous but in different ways. 9/11 wasn't unprecedented, we've been attacked out of the blue before. Oklahoma city, the twin towers in the 90s, the marine barracks in Beirut, even pearl harbor.

But what Trump did hasn't happened to this country since fort Sumpter in 1861. It was horrid not because it was effective. Ultimately a coup led by a bunch of morons was doomed to fail. It was horrid because what was attacked. Not material locations, or specific people, but the idea that we are a government of laws and a government based on free and fair elections. That's what was horrible about it. I won't point a finger at anyone that thinks it's worse than 911 or not as bad. They have that right.

If he had phrased it the way you just did then I would have agreed with him. 

You guys sound like a bunch of apologists.

Dave and Fau get it.

Yes, the death count was higher on 9/11:  2977 vs 1.  (or 2996 vs 6 depending on your personal beliefs on who to count).

But after 9/11 I wasn’t who worried the country was at risk.  I worried that we might have additional terrorist attacks, but I wasn’t worried our country would fall because of it. 

I wasn’t worried my neighbors were terrorists who would launch an attack. I knew even my muslim neighbors were just as horrified as I was on 9/11. I am not so sure about my neighbors that are still waiving Trump flags and have “stop the steal” yard signs. 

Nobody down played 9/11 as free speech that got out of hand.

Nobody defend bin Ladin “well he didn’t actually fly the planes into the WTC, you can’t hold him responsible for what his followers did”

I knew on 9/11 we were going to war, but I wasn’t worried it could be the end of our democracy.

We have senators and house members comparing an attempted coup to protests against police brutality. 

More people died on 9/11 and at Pearl Harbor and Oklahoma City.  And by the method I count fatalities, more innocent people died at Boston Marathon than the Capitol.  But none of those were a direct threat to our democracy.  This is the most serious threat to America since the Civil War.
. 

Not sure what you mean.  Who exactly am I apologizing for?

The Capitol invasion was MUCH worse than 9/11.  I don't see how this is even controversial.

Are we talking about lives lost?  We lose more people than 9/11 to COVID every single day and you guys are STILL like, "We can't live our lives in fear of the virus and it's mostly old people dying anyway."  So don't give me any BS about how not enough people died at the Capitol for it to be as bad as 9/11.

At the end of the day, Pearl Harbor was worse than 9/11.  Pearl Harbor represented a powerful overseas empire directly attacking us, with the not-insignificant possibility that American citizens in the Pacific would have their homes permanently invaded by Japan.  (If Nazi Germany had decided not to attack the Soviet Union, many islands in the Pacific could have been looking at a significantly different history.)

9/11 was never a threat to the existence of the United States of America as a democratic republic.
If the Joint Chiefs had not decided to (arguably illegally) side with Pence and Congress over the President, our democracy would have ended one week ago (or we would be in a full-blown civil war).
They are not even remotely comparable events.  The Capitol invasion was far worse.

If you truly believe that being able to apologize (being an apologist) is a bad thing, your good/bad moral compass may need further calibration.  Same with taking the blame when the blame is yours.

Had your former fearless leader had the capacity to do either of those very human things, I believe he would still be in the WH next month.

Being an apologist to hoodie because he can't articulate a point without being offensive is what I'm referring to.

Just because you were offended doesn't make my statement offensive.  Snowflake

“Nothing compares to any past threats; we have never had Americans fighting Americans on the streets of the nation’s capital probably since the civil war," - Deputy Commissioner of the NYPD.

I am assuming that the deputy commission of the NYPD is aware of the events of 9/11 yet he considers the current situation incomparable to anything since 1865.

I can understand that use then...but, after going back and reading his last couple of posts in this thread, I am a little curious as to which words actually offended you?

That's cute coming from you.  Continue with your circle jerk, don't mind me.

I see.

I don't think I'm apologizing for him, so much as I'm trying to reiterate his point in a way that might make more sense to other people, since I largely understand where he's coming from.

Unless you really just enjoy arguing with folks, I might recommend putting some work in on your people skills.

just btw .. an apologist isn't someone who apologizes .. it's someone who defends or excuses a controversial idea

so saying that someone is an apologist for holocaust denial doesn't mean he's sorry that holocaust denial exists .. it means he's defending or excusing holocaust denial

i don't think i was being an apologist for the record .. the idea that a coup against the government by the president is worse than a terrorist attack isn't controversial in my view

Yeah, that one is a real mystery.   ;D

The Guy Who Flew a Confederate Flag in the Capitol Has Predictably Surrendered (https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvx5a8/the-guy-who-flew-a-confederate-flag-in-the-capitol-has-predictably-surrendered)

(https://video-images.vice.com/articles/6000a155b5e29f009c8eacb1/lede/1610654040234-ap21007275874320.jpeg?crop=1xw:0.8428xh;0xw,0.1572xh&resize=500:*)

The man who brought a confederate flag into the Capitol during the insurrection last week has, predictably, surrendered.

Kevin Seefried has been identified as the middle-aged goateed man who was photographed carrying a huge and historically racist confederate flag as he marched uninvited around the halls of Congress on Jan. 6. He surrendered to authorities in Wilmington, Delaware, on Thursday, along with his son, Hunter Seefried, according to the Department of Justice.

---

The least surprising part of the article?

The two men confessed their riot attendance to FBI investigators, according to the court documents. Kevin told authorities that he normally flies the confederate flag in front of his Delaware home.

Ah yes, another history buff who just wants to give the proper respect to Delaware's Confederate past.  It's about heritage, not hate!

The thing that gets me about these morons is that they don't even think what they did was wrong.  They consider themselves "patriots".  They fancy themselves to be present day versions of the Founding Fathers who are going to "revolt against the traitors" and "take back America".   By utilizing the tactics that they chose they have made themselves about the farthest thing from patriots that they could possibly be.  And they have probably set the conservative movement back drastically because the prized middle ground voters are going to be pushed to the left because the right is now being associated with these dipshits.  They obviously represent a very small percentage of the conservative population but perception is everything and the right is now (at least temporarily) perceived as being these inbred yahoos who stormed the Capitol. 

Don’t blame these idiots for the blight on the GOP.  If Republicans weren’t continuing their big lie of election fraud they would be considered fringe nut cases. It is only because they are acting in furtherance of the Presidents, several senators and 2/3 of House republicans goal of overturn the fair election of Biden that the stain is on the GOP. 

And they don’t represent a very small percentage.  45% of Republicans support the insurrection.

 https://today.yougov.com/topics/politics/articles-reports/2021/01/07/US-capitol-trump-poll

The intrusion into the capitol was only one aspect of the failed coup.

I am very dubious of that poll.  It is either wrong or I am fortunate enough that literally none of my many Republican friends are in that 45%.  Because every single one that I have talked to about it found what happened at the Capitol to be abhorrent. 

Exactly.  These people didn't come to this on their own.  Trump (and much of the Republican establishment and conservative media) have been parroting what they know is bullshit.  These are the doofuses who didn't have the sense to sniff it out.

I must say, their actions don't surprise me.  If I had nothing to lose and I truly believed that people like me voted to change the country, but it was denied by a secret cabal of deep-state pedophiles that were stealing my chance at prosperity and were sacrificing my family to the Chinese, I'd be mobbing, too.  So would all of us.  But I know it's bullshit, firstly.  And secondly, I have a lot to lose.  I have it pretty good.

Rioting is the inevitable action of an oppressed people who are out of options within the system, so they tear down the system.

The issue here is that these people were made to feel like they were the oppressed and were lied to about the consequences if they didn't rise up.  They probably thought they didn't have a choice.

There are at least three conservative posters here who seem to believe that either a) the invasion was fine or b) it's no worse than the protests over the summer.

Why you always gotta be a voice of reason and sensibility?  Political discussions in here are supposed to be vitriolic and fueled solely by passion and emotions.  :)

Was it as bad when BLM leader and supporter helped to set off a bomb that actually went off in the Senate wing of the Capitol among her other crimes? Jerry Nadler and President Clinton apparently didn't think blowing up the Capitol was too bad because Jerry convinced Bill to pardon her.  


The people are idiots and come from different lifestyles. Hell ... even mainstream media is admitting that BLM activists were in disguise as MAGA part of the ones egging them on. this is the latest one to be exposed.

BLM activist egged on Capitol rioters: Left-winger who told CNN he was there simply to document the siege is arrested after video reveals he shouted 'it's our house' and 'we got to get this s**t burned'https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9149861/Left-wing-activist-arrested-relation-siege-Capitol-Building.html

I'm not making excuses just saying they are a bunch of idiots who all need to be arrested and the "hidden" ones egging the domestic terrorists on should be twice as guilty ... but that's just my opinion.

The FBI knew this was planned before it happened. It wasn't spurned by any hate speech by any politician. It started 20 minutes before Trump's speech was even over and he was 20 minutes away. 75 million people voted for Trump and yet a very small amount of supposed supporters did a really dumb thing.

It's kind of a sign of the times because the new way is to blame others for anything stupid we do ourselves. No accountability in this new America because someone else is ultimately responsible for my actions. In the old days we would have noted them as extremist or domestic terrorists who were looking for trouble and then our Democratic president would have pardoned them. hahaha 

Well you do have a point there.  So maybe it really is just that the people I hang out with are on the moderate side of the Republican party.  I will be pretty disappointed if 45% of Republicans really do feel that way.  I always feel like the proverbial "man without a country" because my own political and social beliefs don't neatly align with any specific party.  Some of my beliefs fall in with the Democratic platform, some with the Republican platform, and some with the Libertarian platform.  

and among my hundreds of friends I would agree with you. Most conservatives find it very wrong. It's the Democrats who find no fault with their own.

CF, you've been here constantly defending or downplaying the invasion for the last week.

If you are counting yourself among those on the right who think it is "very wrong" (as in: "equivalent to the protests last summer") then the conservative movement in America is in even worse shape than I thought.

You conservatives on here that are calling this abhorrent and calling these people out as crazy, I take you at your word.  However, I think you are in denial about the state of the average Trump voter.  For whatever reason, you are insulated from the truth...perhaps your friends are not parroting the bullshit, but it's there.

Frank Lutz's conducted a poll last weekend:
Of Trump Voters--
90% would vote for Trump again
80% think the election was stolen
49% think Antifa, Democrats, or the media were responsible for the attack on the Capitol
11% think Trump is responsible for the attack on the Capitol
64% think "the traditional American way of life is disappearing so fast that we may have to use force to save it."

I'm sure all these numbers are fluid, and I imagine that much of the Trump support is "soft support", but brainwashing is a hell of a drug.  Y'all got taken for a ride and a lot of you haven't gotten off yet.  This man, who is the least Christian you can be, convinced Christians he was a bible-reading, God-fearing agent of Jesus Christ.  He convinced poor rednecks that he was siding with them over the rich elites...Donald Fucking Trump, who would be disgusted to be in their very presence.  He convinced conservatives that his was here to look out for small business, while he is the ultimate big-business wannabe.  Shit...he even convinced me rather early that he cared about crumbling infrastructure and wanted to rebuild America's roads, bridges, and specifically he went on and on about airports.  He told us he was the least racist man in America.

History will  not be kind to him or to us.  But admitting that you got played is hard and it takes time to settle in.

I really appreciate that you are open to listening.  I try to approach this stuff with as little personal bias as possible and at least lie to myself that I am open to changing my opinion when presented with new facts.

So if I understand correctly, Bill Clinton pardoned BLM for bombing the Capitol in the early '80s?  That timeline sounds totally legit and not at all misleading, like when Bush pardoned the Tea Party for Ruby Ridge.

But to answer your question: if President Alex Jones commutes the sentences of (not pardons) Baked Alaska and the Q Shaman in 2040 after a decade-plus in the federal pen for invading the Capitol, I imagine I'll live with it.

I would have said President Lauren Boebert but it looks like she might be needing that pardon herself (https://boebert.house.gov/media/press-releases/rep-boebert-calls-out-rep-maloneys-lies):

"Yesterday, on national television, Congressman Sean Maloney made false and baseless conspiracy claims about me that led to death threats and hundreds of vile phone calls and emails. His comments were extremely offensive, shameful and dangerous. There was not an ounce of truth to anything he claimed about me. His allegations are an embarrassment to the House of Representatives and he should correct his false assertions on the record as soon as possible."

For the record, here (https://twitter.com/RepSeanMaloney/status/1349926359330648066) is the transcript of Maloney's remarks.  See if you can figure out the issue with Boebert's statement.

"My 'I did not aid the attack on Congress' t-shirt is raising a lot of questions already answered by my shirt."

Boebert seems to lack some very basic reading comprehension.  Maloney went out of his way not to name Boebert and said was an investigation not something he knew as fact.

Getting to the bottom of this should be quite simple.  The capitol has cameras and visitors logs.  Either she gave someone a tour or not.

Find any place I have said they do not need to be arrested or punished. I have not skewed from that but yes, it does not appear to be the terror that was first reported. The fact I call you hypocrites for not admonishing the rioters does not mean I equate it to the Washington crap but thanks for putting words in my mouth. Try taking what I say at face value and you'll come away with a whole different perspective.

It's nice that you have found reasons why it was ok to pardon a terrorist who bombed our Capitol. You scare me as much as the crazies who stormed the white house.

Has there ever been a Democrat or liberal who did something wrong in your view or are they all angels of God to you?

Then you either:

A) Scare way too easy
or
B) Are so far detached from reality that the best GPS in the world won't bring you back.

Comparing BLM to the insurrection is completely nonsense. 

The goal of BLM is to end police brutality.

The goal of the insurrection was the total and complete destruction of our democracy.  As was the goal of Gohmart’s lawsuit. 

Failed coup? There was no attempt to overthrow the government. Nor was there ever the slightest chance in hell of that ever happening. It was a rally that turned into a protest that turned into a deadly riot. And from everything I've seen, only a small percentage of the huge crowd participated in the riot.

"The phrase “attempted coup” has been more controversial. It often has military overtones that were absent last week. The AP advises against it, absent evidence that the specific aim was to take over the government."

The government was never going to be taken over. This isn't like the Civil War, nor anywhere close. I don't excuse or condone any of this illegal activity. But lets not blow things out of proportion.

Again, you continue to downplay the invasion.  What "terror" was first reported? If anything, the later videos have made it clear that it was WORSE than originally reported.

Your responses during this whole thread have been repeated variations on "But what about BLM?"

I have to admit that I messed up here: I took your wild Facebook conspiracy peddling at something approaching face value, instead of researching what actually happened.

In 1990, there were 2 convictions for the 1983 bombing (which, it bears mentioning, was done at night and resulted in 0 injuries): Laura Whitehorn received 20 years, and Linda Evans received 5 years (to be served consecutively with the 35 years she was already serving after a 1987 conviction for illegally buying guns).

In 2001, Bill Clinton commuted (not pardoned) the sentence of Evans, 11 years after her 1990 sentence of 5 years for the bombing.  So given that she spent 11 years in prison related to a crime for which she received a 5-year sentence, it seems to me that what Clinton actually commuted was the sentence on her gun charges.  (The irony of a 2nd Amendment supporter like yourself citing this case is not lost on me.)  Notably, Clinton did NOT commute the sentence of Whitehorn, who received 20 years for the bombing and was released on parole after 14.

Now that we've cleared up the Facebook conspiracy fog, let's talk about the moral high ground.

Do I think the 1983 bombing was wrong?  Yes.
Do I think it was worse than 9/11?  No (keeping in mind that the Pentagon was attacked on 9/11).
Do I think it was worse than the Capitol invasion? Hell no.
Do I object to the related convictions and sentences handed out?  No.
Do I object to Clinton commuting the sentence of one of the bombers, 11 years after she received a 5-year sentence?  No.

Trump directed his supporters to storm the Capitol and stop the confirmation of the person who defeated him in the election.
You would vote for Trump again today if you could.
Spare me the accusations of mindless devotion.

The President of the United States directed his supporters to march to the Capitol with the express and illegal purpose of stopping Congress from confirming his own defeat in the 2020 election.

This was a direct attempt by the head of the executive branch to stop the legislative branch from lawfully replacing him.

It was an attempted coup.  Full stop.

First off: that doesn't matter at all.  This isn't a surprising claim from the same people who think that you can't have an obstruction of justice charge if you successfully obstruct whatever alleged crime was being investigated, but the attempt is the attempt.

Second: the only reason it didn't work is because DoD & the Joint Chiefs - after blocking MD and VA from sending their own National Guards to assist Congress - elected to deploy the DC National Guard on the orders of VP Mike Pence, who has no such authority.

Stop trying to downplay or excuse Donald Trump's attempt to overthrow our democratic republic.  It was executed as incompetently as everything else he does, but that doesn't make it any less serious of a threat.

Instead of agreeing with you, a hard core leftist. I'll agree with AP, who ranks as one of the most balanced media outlets. Actually, looking at the chart they lean slightly left. So yeah, this wasn't a coup. This was a deadly riot perpetrated by a small fringe extremist minority of people at the rally.

Just to repeat AP so you can try to comprehend. "The phrase “attempted coup” has been more controversial. It often has military overtones that were absent last week. The AP advises against it, absent evidence that the specific aim was to take over the government."

So the AP can't find evidence, but you can? GTFOH, lmfao...

As an outsider looking in, I'd call it a failed coup.

I am disgusted and dismayed at Trump's (many) attempts to subvert the course of a perfectly legitimate election process. He is not interested at all in democracy, he's a power hungry bully and wannabe Dictator trying to force his way back into power using any means possible, mostly illegitimate.

The only fraud in this election is Donald Trump, his claims that it was rigged is absolute bullshit, but he hopes his endless rants will convince the corrupt and the brain dead.

His major legal courses of action all failed (because foundations laid in bullshit tend to fail), so he calls his army of brain dead zombies to march on Capitol Hill the day of the College Electoral vote confirmation. They chant for Mike Pence to be hanged, and by pure coincidence some of them just happen to be armed, carrying pipe bombs and cable ties, and have erected a gallows, of course all just for show...

Trump should not only be thrown out of office, impeached and barred from ever running again, IMO he should be prosecuted and convicted of treason. Preferably he should be sentenced to death, and hung from the same gallows his supporters built outside the Capitol Building... maybe that's going a little too far, but it's no less demented than what is going through the mind of the Psycopath that is the 45th President of the United States.

End of rant.

It's worth mentioning that the immediate next sentence after your quote is "Ortiz has allowed [the use of coup], reasoning there was clearly an attempt by the executive branch to thwart the legislative branch."  So clearly AP recognizes that its peers have, indeed, framed it as a "coup" with some justification.

I looked at the link you provided and I cannot find anywhere where the AP (whom you are now claiming as an authoritative source) said that it was a "small fringe extremist minority." What I did find them say is this:

But it became clear, as many breached the Capitol and lawmakers fled for safety, that more was happening. The Associated Press told staff members that protest was too mild a word. Phrases like “mob,” “riot” and “insurrection” were appropriate, noted John Daniszewski, vice president and editor at large for standards.

I presume that you would agree that this was indeed an insurrection, then?

I also found this:

Earlier this week, the conservative website RedState posted an article headlined “Enough! There was no riot, insurrection or storming” at the Capitol. Author Mike Ford described it as a “peaceful rally and a largely peaceful protest that was marred by some bad acts by a very few people.”

The next day, editors retracted Ford’s piece and scrubbed it from the site. Editors, who did not return messages seeking comment, explained to readers that “many details, opinions and analysis contained in the piece were either incorrect or inappropriate.”

Since it's apparent that a) you are very concerned about the proper use of terminology to describe the event, and b) you consider the AP a conclusive authority on the subject, it's strange that you would try to frame it as a few bad apples when the article you are citing warns against such framing.

Ortiz is with CBS which leans left of AP.


Sure, I'd agree with insurrection. I've already called it a deadly riot. The words, “mob,” “riot” and “insurrection” are different from "coup".

I'm always concerned about proper terminology. Just as much as the left was worried about terminology when the people displaced by Katrina were correctly called "refugees" by the media.
 
So you have left leaning media skewing one way and right leaning media skewing the other way. And you want to argue that I'm agreeing with a balanced media outlet? There was no coup. Just a group of crazies involved in a deadly riot. Just like happened all through the summer. So what you're actually saying is that your group of crazies is better that the group of crazies on the right. Ummm, okay....

You guys keep comparing the Capitol invasion to BLM.  This is not an accurate comparison, as the BLM protests over the summer were for general police reform, while the Capitol invasion was specifically to stop the counting of the electoral college votes that was happening at the very moment the Capitol was being invaded.  In point of fact, the Capitol invasion successfully stopped the counting of EVs for several hours.

The only way this would be comparable would be if some politician - say, AOC - directly sent a mob to a specific location with the express intent of stopping a scheduled legislative action from taking place.  (And that's before we get into the whole "Trump's DoD blocked the MD and VA governors from sending their National Guard to help" angle.)

This is not remotely the same thing as the BLM protests over the summer, nor is it similar to some people breaking into a Target to steal TVs.  It was an attempt to prevent the official confirmation of Joe Biden as the victor of the 2020 presidential election, directed by the man who lost that election.

Not that anyone in here cares but

US takes back its assertion that Capitol rioters wanted to 'capture and assassinate' officials
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/15/politics/capitol-capture-assassinate-elected-officials/index.html

of course .. we should read what the article actually says and not just the sensationalist headline.

Thank you, Fau.

Pay no attention to the gallows in front and the zip ties they brought in.  It was a peaceful protest with a few bad apples, who were mostly Antifa anyway.

I wonder if we can use the same standard to talk about a "peaceful protest" inside of a Target that rioters broke into?

Do all of them still consider themselves Republicans?  There has an unprecedented number of people who have switched their party affiliation from Republican to independent (and in a few cases to democrat) since the putche. And that is just the ones that have filed paperwork. 

I think the numbers may seemed skewed because many rational conservatives are no longer identifying as Republicans but rather as Independents. 

In here I kind of think I may be but am I the only one finding it funny that all the protestors who have been caught are now blaming Trump for THEIR actions? What the heck kind of defense is that? The guy on tv made me do it ... hahahaha. I guess it goes along with suing McDonalds because you're fat. My .. how quickly these extreme patriots turn into Democrats and start blaming others for their obviously horrible choices.

That is neither a Democratic thing nor a Republican thing...it's a human thing. Nice bit of trolling though.

I mean....there is an element of personal responsibility, but yeah, Trump, the president of the United States, along with the majority of the GOP told their constituents that the election was fraudulent and that Democracy was at stake.  They knew this to be bullshit, but they continued to press that issue.

Then, the people believed them.

If your democracy is stolen by a pedophile cabal in league with the Chinese through a deep state government, then yes -- you should storm the capital and kill the traitors inside.  Rioting is a natural uprising that happens from the oppressed.  It is a power balance and is how we have the rights we have...because we will kill you if you deny us these rights.  And even though it's true across all humanity, it is particularly American, because our system of laws is largely based on violent uprising, again and again.

Their methods weren't the real issue -- it was that they were sent there under false pretense.

I don't really get the complaint?  Are they stupid to have believed Trump?  Because if what Trump (and the larger Q conspiracy) said was actually true, their actions would have been justified.

They were stupid to have done what they did. I think we can agree that out of 75 million a very small number stormed the Capital and not all were there for the same reason. Yes, I think they are responsible for their actions just like the liberal who shot up the Republicans at softball practice. Personal accountability even goes back to the Bible for me. We are NOT to follow false prophets. We are to know a false profit. The way to knowing a false profit it to know the Word of God. So basically it isn't the falt of the person spewing lies supposedly from the Bible it is up to me to know what the bible actually says.

If we are being honest about the idiots who are swayed we would admit that all political groups and media feed them as much as anything. It's really a group effort.

“I was just following orders” is a pretty common defense.  A Trump told them to take back an election he claimed the democrats stole.  

The defense won’t work, but proves culpability goes all the way to the top.  

I don't really agree.

A small number of people acted to the extreme of the lie, so far as they're in there killing cops and smearing shit on the walls....but not all that small a number of people involved in the insurrection.  There were like 600 people implicated in some level of criminality within the Capitol building.

But they were all there in that crowd because they believed the lie.  The lies that these people bought hook, line, and sinker is the problem.  And lots of other people who weren't radicalized enough (or didn't have the resources) to storm the building still have those core beliefs that are a fundamental risk to the very existence of Democracy.

Approximately the same number that stormed the Beer Hall in 1922.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/01/us/capitol-rioters-non-voters-invs/index.html

I really don’t get this.  I am equally critical of BLM protesters that don’t vote.  And was quite pissed at Kapernick for not voting in 2016.

We've said this before but I will say it again. The people who loot and vandalize are there to loot and vandalize. I don't care if you're BLM, white supremist, Trump supporter, or whatever group is assembling there are always people who are there to take advantage of the situation and cause problems. The people rioting and looting at BLM events are not supporting any black lives and that's been our argument the whole time. They are hoodlums who should have been arrested. They are the exact same as Viking head. They are either looking for attention or just wanting to take advantage of the situation and steal stuff.