The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I don't really know what to say about this, other than I find the whole thing frustrating.

I know that there's going to be a certain amount of the population that just outright refuses to do anything with vaccines...there's a type.  I was expecting that.

What I wasn't expecting is the absolute cavalier attitude of so many people who just don't seem to put a priority on it.  When I ask them, they're "waiting for things to shake out" or "still deciding".

I have an older woman at work, who probably doesn't even have health insurance -- and I don't know that she'll even get the vaccine, but she's definitely not actively seeking it out.  She's just setting herself up for failure and it's frustrating to sit by as a friend and watch her potentially destroy herself.

There's also an additional level of frustration with the community.  I want to have a thriving economy of people with confidence to be normal and spend money and do things.  And if (aside from outliers) everyone did their part, we'd be over and done with this virus for good.  It's just frustrating and I needed to voice it.

I'm not an "I gots mines" kinda guy.  ...so, I'll be fine.  But jeez...so tough to watch people do things that go against what's best for them and for us as a whole.

Other than the "microchip" and "it changes my DNA" crowd, it seems there a lot of people who are cautious about how quickly the vaccines came out and didn't have the longevity of testing other vaccines have.  I get it.  I decided to go ahead and get my shot because I think I'll be fine and I get to go back into the world without much to worry about, but I understand why people don't want to get it.

Dave, first let me say that I agree with you that everyone should get vaccinated, but let me try to play devil's advocate for a minute here.

I've read that as much as 40% of the population will have no symptoms from getting Covid-19 and another 40% may only have mild symptoms. That's 80% of those infected that would have mild or no symptoms at all and that's only of those infected. When you consider that many people have been vaccinated already the chances that you either get Covid-19 or that you develop anything more than mild symptoms from it are pretty low. The fact that the chances that you develop mild symptoms from getting the vaccine are pretty high, I don't see how you can't see why some people are reluctant to get vaccinated especially if they are doing all the other things you can do which have shown to be effective, wearing a mask, social distancing and use good hand hygiene. I understand that you want to get back out there and socialize and not have to worry about it, but there are many people that are perfectly content to stay at home and continue to do what we have been doing. Granted that it could save your life, but the chances of you dieing from Covid-19 are pretty low now especially if you're not in a high risk category and if you doing the other preventitive measures and the numbers just keep on going down. If you are still doing all the other things to protect yourself and you're not high risk is the vaccine really necessary? So that's the other side of the argument.

According to what I have seen the % of people vaccinated is now around 40%. It think it will continue to climb but I doubt it ever gets much above 60-70%. The rest of the folks are gonna think they are immune already, don't really think it has much to do with anti-vaccination.

I know liberals who aren't getting it so it crosses party lines and for different reasons. Many people have way too much fear and others have zero fear because there is so much misinformation out there as well as under information.  Super Lib Bill Maher actually had a good take on the current Covid situation IMO and hits a lot of these areas.


https://twitter.com/billmaher/status/1383296276020617224

I don't want politics mixed in with my medical decisions. And when all of our news sources for Covid information have an agenda to spin us, you wind up with a badly misinformed population. #BreakingNews #ScaredStraight

https://youtu.be/Qp3gy_CLXho

A mask is a stopgap solution.  It's to help reduce spread until we can eradicate -- and it's so .  It isn't something any of us want to be doing to protect ourselves forever.

Also, I think there's too much talk about COVID in a binary sense, like whether or not it kills you.  This is going to bankrupt a ton of people...it already has.  So many of my clients got COVID and couldn't work for a month and they just don't have to ability to get it back...not to mention the medical bills.  It's just an unnecessary strain.

I don't consider this political.  The majority of the people I know are either liberal-leaning or apolitical.  It's either general distrust of authoritative systems or people who are prone to conspiracy.

It's funny you bring up Bill Maher.  As much as I like him in general, I think his take on the medical industry is pretty piss poor.  He's like these California hippies that thinks he's gonna cure cancer with essential oils and shit.  I might be overplaying my hand and I don't disagree that people should eat healthier, but I think he seems to put eating healthy and medical treatment as an either/or and I don't like that.

In my world people joke about those things but I seriously doubt many of them actually believe that. My phone starts showing ads almost immediately after I search on my home PC and I know how many cameras are around town so big brother can already do whatever they want regardless of if I accept the "chip" vaccines. LOL

Bill Maher is NOT a liberal or a progressive.  He is a right leaning libertarian who rejected Trumpism.  If he is your definition of liberal than you are not a conservative but a fascist.

I haven't gotten the vaccine yet. I will but I need to make sure when I take the time off that I am guaranteed it is available.  It sounds like it isn't an issue anymore.

He identifies as liberal, but stands against political correctness. In his words, "The difference is that liberals protect people, and P.C. people protect feelings." In the past, he has also described himself as a libertarian, and has also referred to himself "as a progressive, as a sane person".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Maher#:~:text=He%20identifies%20as%20liberal%2C%20but,%2C%20as%20a%20sane%20person%22. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Maher#:~:text=He%20identifies%20as%20liberal%2C%20but,%2C%20as%20a%20sane%20person%22.)

 

I think Maher finds pretty much all politicians to be self serving buffoons.  I tend to agree with him. 

LMAO ... this just shows how far left you are. No one in their right mind would try to say Maher is right leaning anything. And thank you for calling me fascist. I'll wear that as a badge of pride just like my racist homophobic white privileged self that I am.

Careful Dave. That sounds an awful lot like I want you to get the vaccine for my health, not yours. You know that there are a lot of countries where people were wearing masks long before Covid came around, right? In fact in those places if you didn't wear a mask it was considered rather insensitive. I think you are going to be seeing a lot more people wearing masks in the US for a rather long time especially in certain situations. I think you need to start getting used to the idea that that it may take a very long time before things get back to how they were pre-covid if they ever do.

Well, I do.  It's both.

It's directly helpful to you and indirectly helpful to everyone.

I'm already OK with the idea of wearing a mask in certain situations.  I totally can see myself wearing a mask as I board a plane or if I'm in the lobby of the doctor's office when I take my kid in for a cold.  I think it would be weird wearing it day to day, but in atypical situations, I won't find it strange.

I don't think we should be worrying about those not wanting to get vaccinated at this point, that's their choice and their right.  Once everyone around the world has been vaccinated that wants to get vaccinated, then we can look at what the virus is doing.  Herd immunity may be reached and it may not be a major issue, not to mention at that point side effects from the vaccine will be more well known, if there are any.

Far be it for me to force anyone to get a vaccination, their body .. their decision ..
I think that's what being pro-choice is all about.

on the other hand, them not getting vaccinated means they can transmit covid to other people, so while we can't force people to get the vaccine, we can make sure that only those that are vaccinated are allowed to participate in activities where there's a high concentration of people in one location for an extended period of time where social distancing isn't practical. These could include, classrooms, airplanes, and other essential activities.

Of course, I don't want to infringe on the private sector more than absolutely necessary to ensure public safety. So I can't see government prohibiting private businesses from requiring vaccinations for non-essential things like cruises, theme park admissions, concerts or sporting events. We aren't communist china after all.

Yeah, how did that work for mask wearing?

If we presume these statistics are accurate, some quick napkin math tells us that means 20% of those infected can expect of have serious symptoms (including death).  This is for a highly contagious disease, mind you.

If a 20% chance of serious medical complications from an extremely contagious disease is not enough to drive action, why do we have vaccines at all?  Why do we have laws against drunk driving, or laws that require hand washing in food service?

20% is not a "low chance."  20% is terrifyingly high.

Vaccines and masks are almost exactly opposites in function.

Masks significantly reduce your chance of spreading COVID, but don't do a whole lot to stop you from catching it.
Vaccines significantly reduce your chance of catching COVID (especially with serious symptoms), but you can still potentially spread it even while vaccinated.

You can't really compare the decision-making behind the two options.

This right  here.  I've had quite a few friends develop full blown COVID symptoms after getting it.  I've also had three friends have heart attacks and one other one had a stroke.  Yours truly will not be getting the vaccine and neither will any members of my family.


What difference does it make??   If I don't have the vaccine but you do, you're safe around me weather I have COVID or not.  For the government to not allow unvaccinated people to travel or go into crowded places would be equivalent to Communist China.  And if private businesses make the decision to pull that shit, they stand to lose a lot of business.

He's not suggesting that "the government not allow" (nobody is, by the way).  It's IF businesses don't allow, like Carnival makes you prove vaccination to go on one of their cruises, he's suggesting that it would be bad if the government made it against the law to prove vaccination.

As far as businesses losing a lot of business, it goes both ways.  I'm WAY WAY WAY more likely to choose a vaccinated option over not, if such a choice exists. 

The difference is that not everyone can get vaccinated, not everyone builds an immunity through vaccines. Those that are immunocompromised will not receive immunity from a vaccine. People may be allergic to the vaccine's ingredients. People may have leukemia and have a very poor immune response. There are plenty of reasons.

To your other point, government via schools already mandates vaccinations. Government mandates way more vaccinations when you apply for a green card. Universities require vaccination records. It's already how society works. What makes you think you have any rights to put other people at risk?  If you don't want a covid shot .. cool .. that's on you .. but don't whine about it when you aren't permitted to endanger other people.

And private businesses already have rules .. try walking into anywhere with no shoes or shirts. Cruise lines are in fact already mandating vaccination records for anyone booking now. It's already happening.

No, I very specifically am suggesting the government not allow, the same way they already don't allow kids to go to school without vaccinations.
https://www.noshotsnoschool.com/ (https://www.noshotsnoschool.com/)

Or people to immigrate without a TB test and a whole slew of shots.
https://www.uscis.gov/tools/designated-civil-surgeons/vaccination-requirements (https://www.uscis.gov/tools/designated-civil-surgeons/vaccination-requirements)

Why is this a surprise to anyone? This is already how society works. What's to prevent anyone from adding a covid-19 vaccination to those lists? How is that any different.

20% of those with Covid will have something more than mild symptoms. Don't exaggerate what that 20% indicates, it just means if you have Covid you'll have something more than mild symptoms, could just be what I had which was 2 weeks of being sick. The odds that you will actually require hospitalization if you have Covid is around 5% and the odds of death if you have Covid are under 2%. Those numbers also don't take into account if you are high risk or not, obviously if you not high risk your chances of being hospitalized or death if you have Covid are even lower. Those are VERY low odds in my opinion.

Again, I can't stress enough that in my opinion ANY chance of death should be reason enough to get a vaccine, but that's not how everyone thinks obviously. A lot of people think "it won't happen to me". This has been true forever. It's things like this that remind us of that fact.

So then you disagree with Dave? This statement above is misleading "Vaccines significantly reduce your chance of catching COVID". Vaccines reduce your chance of developing a severe infection, they help you fight off the infection they don't prevent passing it on or at least we don't know how well they do that yet. As you mentioned people that have been vaccinated can still carry the virus and spread it to others. Eliminating the virus is not really the goal of vaccinations at least not yet. Getting the vaccine is a personal choice because what we know is it prevents the person getting vaccinated from getting the disease should they be infected by the virus whereas wearing a mask and social distancing is more of a social norm to help prevent others from getting infected as many people may be carrying the virus and not realize it especially now that they have been vaccinated. Would you agree with that?

That needs to stop too.  Some parents want their kids to auto immune by contracting the disease.  Vaccines have been linked to ASD studies.

Falsely linked.

Don't care, those parents can home school their kids. I don't want them in a classroom with my kid. They live in a society of rules and laws.

5% risk of hospitalization from an incredibly contagious disease is extremely high.
2% risk of hospitalization from an incredibly contagious disease is extremely high.
You're not going to have much success in downplaying the danger represented by COVID when it has killed nearly 600,000 Americans in the last 13 months.

It's not a misleading statement at all.

- Being vaccinated significantly reduces your chances of testing positive for COVID.
- Being vaccinated significantly reduces your chances of serious symptoms if you do catch it.
- Being vaccinated all but eliminates your chances of being hospitalized by oy dying from COVID.

Which one of those three statements do you think is misleading, if any?

WTF?  Of course it is!

The longer unvaccinated people are running around, the longer the pandemic will continue and the greater the chance for vaccine-resistant COVID strains to develop.  A fully-vaccinated population drastically curbs the ability for new strains to develop, because the virus cannot gain a foothold long enough to mutate.

No, I would not.

Both vaccinations and masks are safety measures taken to stop the spread of COVID.  Masks primarily work to stop you from giving the virus to others, while the vaccines primarily work to stop you from catching the virus from others.  Both measures are important until the pandemic is over.

As it stands, I'm against the government making you do it, so far as holding you down and sticking your arm against your will.

But I'm all for the public sector, mostly insurance companies, entertainment companies, employers (especially that have travel as part of the job), private colleges and travel companies mandating that you're vaccinated to participate.  School will be a big step.  We already require a host of vaccines to go to school now and we should just add this to the list.

It's a matter of public health.


----

I'm watching a show (the entire thing is available on YouTube) called Wartime Farm.  It's a BBC thing where a historian and 2 archaeologists run a farm with the standards and technology of World War II in England.  The amount of sacrifice that the people of that country made in order to win that war is pretty amazing.  Everyone had to come together and do stuff they didn't want to.  A lot of it was mandated, but much of it was just communities doing more and taking less, so that they could survive.  ....and they came really close to starving to death.

It just made me a little sad that I don't think we, as a group, are capable of anything like that anymore.

This one. There's very little evidence of this because there hasn't been a whole lot of testing. There's speculation and there's been some evidence that being vaccinated lowers your chances of being infected should you be exposed to the virus but it's certainly not been proven nor by how much. Being vaccinated lowers your chances of getting sick from the virus. We know for a fact that you can still be infected and can still pass on the virus and can still test positive for COVID even after you have been fully vaccinated. The fact that you don't get sick does NOT mean that you are not infected. This is why they are still recommending that you wear a mask around those that are not vaccinated and are at high risk even after you have been vaccinated. You could very well pass on the virus to them if you are infected even though you are not sick. You may not even know you have the virus because generally speaking we don't test people for the virus if they have don't have any symptoms of the virus. The only way we really know that you can still have the virus is because people that have been fully vaccinated have then been tested for the virus and tested positive despite the fact they did not have any symptoms. In effect being fully vaccinated is akin to being asymptomic of the virus. It doesn't mean you can't be infected it means you won't get sick from it. There's more research required to see if it actually does lower your chances of being infected and there's some evidence of that but it's too early to know for sure or how much.

That's the LONG term goal but that wasn't the initial goal of the vaccines. The initial goal of the vaccines was to prevent you from getting sick and dieing from the virus. There hasn't been much testing to see if it actually prevents the spread of the virus because as long as it was preventing you from being hospitalized or dieing that was enough reason to start vaccinating people. It's a start. The long term goal is to get rid of the virus completely but we don't know that the vaccines we currently have will do that or to what degree they will do that. Unless there has been some newer evidence that I'm not aware of.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/covid-vaccines-probably-prevent-spread/

No...if it was like Communist China, they'd just throw you in a work camp and you'd disappear.

Most of which were at high risk and most of which occurred before we had a vaccine for it. I'm not downplaying the risk there WAS, I'm talking about NOW. Again as I have said if you're not at high risk the chances NOW that you will need to be hospitalized or die from Covid are pretty low (provided you are following recommendations from the CDC) even if you are not vaccinated.

You cannot use a vaccinated population as evidence that the vaccine is unnecessary because the disease is no longer as dangerous.  That's a circular argument.

Catching COVID is not any less dangerous today for an unvaccinated person than it was a year ago.

You are claiming that there is "very little evidence" that being vaccinated significantly reduces your chances of testing positive.  This is self-evidently a ridiculous claim, because if it were true, vaccinated people would still be testing positive at the same rates as unvaccinated people.

Since you don't seem to be aware of this: there are many, many people who are still required to undergo regular testing even after being vaccinated. I am one of them, and I imagine it also applies to a sizable chunk of the healthcare industry.  So your apparent belief that we're just assuming vaccinated people have lower positive rates is simply wrong.

You keep insisting that you're only playing devil's advocate, but at this point you've played it enough.  If you want to be anti-vax that's up to you, but I'm not interested in this "Of course I agree vaccines are important BUT" proxy argument.

It's not evidence it's cause and effect and I'm not trying to convince anyone the vaccine isn't necessary, I'm saying that it's a personal decision whether to get vaccinated or not. No, Covid itself is not any less dangerous today for an unvaccinated person then it was a year ago but the chances of being infected with Covid is lower then it was a year ago because of the vaccine or at least in theory it is. Each vaccinated person means that it's less likely for any one individual to be infected at least in theory and there's some evidence to suggest that (the other thing we are discussing). The whole herd immunity thing. I am in NO WAY suggesting that the vaccine isn't necessary, just the opposite, it's the presence of the vaccine that makes the chances of infection lower and therefore the chances that an unvaccinated person will be infected with the virus lower thereby decreasing their odds of hospitalization or death from the virus. The fact that many have been vaccinated IS part of the reason that some people are now unwilling to get vaccinated. "If there's herd immunity I don't NEED to get the vaccination, right?" Well the fact is that there will probably NEVER be herd immunity BECAUSE of that type of logic.

I'm not claiming anything, I'm going by what is being reported by the experts in the field like in that link I gave you. The experts are saying it, I'm just going by what they are saying. There's some evidence the vaccine is effective at lowering the rate of transmission but it's not conclusive yet which is the reason for the CDC guidelines as they are now.

Five reasons why COVID herd immunity is probably impossible (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2#:~:text=Most%20estimates%20had%20placed%20the,past%20exposure%20to%20the%20virus.)

And why do you think they are still testing you for the virus? They are trying to determine if you have the virus even though you have been vaccinated. For the EXACT reason that I'm saying there is not enough evidence yet to suggest that merely being vaccinated means you can't transmit the virus to someone else. If the assumption was that you don't have the virus if you've been vaccinated then why are they still testing you? There would be no need to do that. I think we can agree that it's probably lower positive rates with vaccinated people, but how much lower? How long does that resistance to transmission last? These are the types of questions that still need to be answered and the reason they are still testing, to gather more data so a firm conclusion can be made about the vaccines ability to prevent transmission of the disease.

And as for your anti-vaxxer comment, I have been fully vaccinated as has been my entire family. I encourage everyone to get vaccinated. I just don't think we are ready to simply return to life as it was before the pandemic started just yet and I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon because I don't think enough people will be vaccinated and/or the vaccine won't be effective enough with the number of people vaccinated to develop herd immunity. You know, what Dave started the thread about. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm saying I understand it. The very fact that you seem to be unable to separate the stance of those who do not want to get the vaccination from your own personal decision on getting the vaccination is very telling. You can only see your side of the argument, you're not even willing to try to understand the other side. I can understand it even if I don't personally agree with it.

Why do you keep talking about "personal decision"?  No one is talking about sending government vaccination squads door-to-door to hold people down and inject them.

What we ARE saying is that if someone wants to exercise their personal decision not to get vaccinated, the rest of society has the right to exercise personal decisions not to do business with unvaccinated people.  But somehow, those talking about freedom and liberty seem to think that such a response is unfair and wrong.

This thread is full of you making excuses for people who don't want to get vaccinated, under the guise of "devil's advocate."

If you don't think vaccination is unnecessary, you're doing a terrible job of representing your position.  You sound exactly like an anti-vaxxer... and yes, I'm including "I think vaccination is important, BUT..." as part of that statement.

You said, "This statement above is misleading "Vaccines significantly reduce your chance of catching COVID"."  That statement was not misleading; it is completely valid and accurate.

The link you provided not only reinforces that vaccines significantly reduce your chance of catching COVID, it also says (direct quote):

"This is solid evidence that the Moderna vaccine reduces the risk not only of the disease but asymptomatic infection, and therefore spread."

I was only claiming that vaccines effectively prevent you from catching COVID (but not necessarily the spread), but your source says they stop the spread, too.  Your own cited source directly contradicts everything you're trying to say here!


That's not why.  Not even close.

They are continuing testing because many people who have been offered vaccination at my workplace refuse to get it. Full stop.  We are at approximately 50% vaccination, and we've had it available for months.

Again, if you are not an anti-vaxxer, you are trying extremely hard to simulate one.

If someone tells me that they have "personal concerns" that COVID vaccines contain microchips that cause autism and sterility, I don't really care about understanding their position.  It's BS conspiracy nonsense, and there isn't much to say about it beyond "That's not true."

You're in this thread serving up similar BS conspiracy nonsense, but with a light frosting of scientistic rhetoric.  The sources you are citing directly contradict the premises you are citing them to support.

I don't know who you think you're serving by understanding ridiculous anti-vax conspiracies, but you should probably stop.

I think this discussion has reached it's conclusion for me now. Don't think there's any point in continuing.

Hard discussing something with someone who plays silly word games and is never wrong.  As you know, there are a few extremists around here like that. At least he majority here are somewhat reasonable. As WOPR said in War Games,  "the only winning move is not to play." 🙄🙄🤔🤔🤣🤣

I understand where your head is at, but I think you're not fully grasping how herd immunity works.

Let's say 20% of the community is vaccinated or otherwise has built antibodies.  That doesn't greatly reduce the likelihood of public transmission.  It's not like it's 20% less likely to spread now.  ...that's not how it works.

Herd immunity requires a sort of "tipping point" where the virus doesn't have nodes to move around.  We don't know exactly what that point is, but it's high...like 80+% or something like that.  It's good that more people get vaccinated...and of course 60% is better than 50%, but neither will stop the spread....it might slow it some, but that's not herd immunity.

That's correct Dave, but the vaccine's effectiveness at preventing the spread has a lot to do with where that tipping point is for a particular virus. The better the vaccine is at preventing the spread, the lower number of people that have to be vaccinated to get to the tipping point. That's why it's so important and why there's so much focus on it right now. We need to know how well the vaccine does in preventing spread so we can determine where the tipping point is and as that article I mentioned pointed out seems to indicate that herd immunity is out of the question with Covid as it would take an extremely high % of vaccinated population to get to the tipping point so rather what they are looking for at this point is a return to normalcy, perhaps similar to the Flu virus now where those that are at high risk will continue to get vaccines every year and the rest of the public will just take their chances. It's looking more and more like that's the future.

I'm just not willing to give up on that.  85% is high, but we've done this before, throughout history again and again.

Herd immunity also can come through exposure.  It really depends on how the virus behaves.  Between people eager to get vaccinated, those that do it begrungingly because it's socially/financially, those that get COVID and build antibodies, or kids being sent into the school system, I think we can get to pretty much any number we need over time.

I keep hearing the vaccines are going to need boosters. If that's the case good luck on herd immunity.

Society likely won't even need herd immunity if vaccination eliminates serious symptoms.  It will literally be "the flu, bro."

That would depend upon if there's a vaccine for kids which is about 24% of the population in the US I believe. If not, 85% is impossible unless you are just gonna have them all exposed to the virus itself and that ain't gonna happen.

Interesting note as I was driving home today ... I pass by kids all day long going and coming form school as well as being in school. Very few, if any, are wearing masks anymore.  It's been going on for quite a while now but I didn't really catch it til today.

Outdoor transmission seems to be very low anyways .. it's indoors that people have to be extra careful about.

I fear that we get complacent.  I look at the numbers every day and it's like a drip-drip-drip of dead people.  It's like 50-80 per day in Florida...it's not a shocking number anymore, but it's pretty consistent.  I wonder if we get a little lower, like 20 per day, that we just don't care anymore and that's just life from now on.

I was talking to a coworker today.  She won't get vax because of the "risks" involved and the potential of injecting poison into her system. She is a smoker.  While the vaccine has some risks, it is undeniable that the risks of smoking far exceeds any risk from the vax and she is already injecting poison into her system multiple times a day.

Can't simply not wanting to be vaccinated be good enough? Does the reason even matter? She does have a choice and if she's wrong her choice may wind up costing her.

Yes, simply not wanting to be vaccinated is good enough. Just don't complain when you can't do some things that vaccinated people can .. them's the breaks.

Governor Desantis has now made mask mandates illegal in the state of Florida.

Illegal for governments, but not businesses; businesses may still require customers to wear a mask (for now).

I haven't heard of a single person in the world who has had respiratory problems (the primary and deadliest COVID symptom) from a COVID vaccine.  Is that what you're talking about when you say "full blown COVID symptoms"?

The longer that unvaccinated people are catching COVID, the more mutated strains will develop.  This potentially compromises the effectiveness of the existing vaccines.  A fully vaccinated society cuts down on the number of victims where COVID strains can mutate, and if/when those mutated strains do develop, it makes it harder for them to find another victim to infect and continue spreading.

And this is really what it's all about, reducing hospitalizations and deaths.  No different than the regular flu, or pneumonia, or other illnesses you can never completely eliminate deaths occurring.

And I agree with Dave that contracting the illness and developing anti-bodies to fight it the normal way increases the move towards herd immunity.  There is a great unknown out there as to how many individuals have contracted the illness and dealt with it on a personal level without getting tested and notifying health authorities.  Or for that matter people that were asymptomatic.  I know of several people that believe they had it and quarantined without ever being tested, and now they are not hurrying to get vaccinated.

IMO trying to force vaccinations on people is the wrong way to go, it just pushes them more into the anti-vax camp.

Me too. I don't think anyone in my family would have gotten tested had we of not had to go into the hospital. My daughter who got sick but bounced back in a few days was never tested.  There is no doubt the number of infected is much, much, larger than has been reported.

I hope you are right because my back of the envelope calculation says we need ~1/2 of all nonvaxed people to get sick to reach herd immunity.

I think you can forget herd immunity. Even if they make the vaccine available to children which is very questionable at the moment, the odds of hitting herd immunity are shrinking and likely not attainable. A quick google search found these links...

Herd immunity might be impossible (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/02/herd-immunity-might-be-impossible-even-vaccines/617973/)

Many Scientists think herd immunity may now be impossible (https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/many-scientists-think-herd-immunity-may-now-be-impossible-in-us-heres-what-that-means/ar-BB1gjZF5)

5 reasons why herd immunity is probably impossible (https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2)

It's unlikely America will reach herd immunity, experts warn (https://news.yahoo.com/unlikely-america-reach-herd-immunity-133326123.html)

i don't know why you think a children's vaccine is impossible .. next week they'll likely open up the pfizer shot to 12 year olds and they're already doing studies on 5-11 year olds.

I expect by the fall we'll have public school vaccination requirements

Yes, it might not be obtained.  One major factor that will determine if it is obtained will be the portion of the antivaxers that obtain immunity thru catching the disease.

I don't think a children's vaccine is impossible, I said it was very questionable at the moment. I think herd immunity is impossible for a variety of reasons but if a children's vaccine hits a stumbling block then that would definitely be a huge blow to the chances of herd immunity

Herd immunity, in my incredibly non-credible, non-medical opinion will hinge on three major factors:  whether schools require vaccines to go (both public schools and universities) and how long you remain immune after catching the virus and whether future mutations will be completely resistant to the vaccine.  If the answer is "yes" and "a long time" and "no", then I think we'll get there.