Title: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 07, 2021, 10:04:13 pm I can't believe the number of "Help Wanted" signs I see around town. So many service industry and small businesses are struggling to get anyone to work even though unemployment is high. Biden thinks the answer is to spend more money while it seems painfully obvious to me that what Republicans have ben saying has come true ... keep giving it away and no one will work.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9554395/Americans-getting-benefits-wages-stopping-economic-recovery.html It pays not to work in Biden's America: Experts project anyone who earned $32,000 before COVID could now earn MORE in benefits staying at home -The average weekly unemployment benefit is now $638 - $300 more than what it was 2019 -That means people are earning around $16-an-hour - more than double minimum wage which is at least $7.25 across America -It is creating a nightmare scenario for the economy; businesses are desperate to recover from the pandemic but they can't fill their jobs -It is forcing business owners to pay higher wages to attract workers, after a devastating year when they were financially knee-capped -Restaurant owners, for example, say it's already driving inflation and the country isn't fully open again -Republican states are cutting unemployment benefits to get people back to work -Mitch McConnell said the government has 'flooded the zone with checks' and it has dissuaded people from looking for jobs -Montana's Gov axed federal unemployment checks and instead, is giving people $1,200 bonuses to get jobs -South Carolina is also scrapping the federal $300-a-week unemployment boost -April's jobs growth was a quarter of what was expected at just 266,000 instead of 1million -A third of the country has now been vaccinated and businesses should be reopening People who lost their jobs in the pandemic are now earning more in benefits than they did in wages, creating a nightmare economic situation that is stopping people from returning to work and in turn, driving up inflation. In March 2019, the average weekly payment to an unemployed person was $348 when combining federal and state unemployment payments. That nearly tripled to $938 in April 2020, when Trump passed COBRA - a temporary economic plan that boosted weekly unemployment payments by $600 and also gave employed people one-off stimulus checks. COBRA expired in July and the unemployment boost was halved to $300-a-week. Now, they are $638-a-week on average and they'll stay that way until September 6 at least. It means, someone who was working 40 hours a week before the pandemic now gets nearly $16-an-hour to do nothing at home, which is more than double the federal minimum wage of $7.25. Bank of America estimates that anyone who earned $32,000 before the pandemic can now get more from a combination of state and federal unemployment benefits. They are also allowed to claim benefits for up to 39 weeks - nearly a full year - whereas before, it was capped at 26 weeks. The average US salary in 2019 was $31,133. It has created a scenario where restaurant workers, cleaners, retail workers and other people who slogged for minimum wage are simply choosing to stay at home because they earn more and are not put at risk of catching the virus. Now, the only way for businesses to make up for it is by raising their prices - and Republicans are up in arms about the fast-paced inflation it is causing. But on Friday, President Joe Biden said the answer was to spend more money. He claimed Americans are looking for work - despite there being some 9million unemployed - and that there just needed to be more jobs on the market. He was slapped down immediately by economists, including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce Executive Vice President Neil Bradley, who said: 'The disappointing jobs report makes it clear that paying people not to work is dampening what should be a stronger jobs market.' A third of the country is now vaccinated and business owners are frantically trying to revive their profits but with no one there to fill the jobs, they're unable to. Restaurant owners who have been financially knee-capped with closures now have to compete with higher-paying sectors if they want to attract staff, and with rising vendor costs across the board, it is manifesting in higher prices for customers. Republicans want to stop the cycle before it goes any further; in Florida, Governor Ron DeSantis is telling those people that they have to prove they are looking for jobs again if they want to receive unemployment. In Montana, the Governor has ditched the $300 weekly boost and instead, is offering people a one-time bonus of $1,200 to go back to work. Unemployment has shrunk from 14% last April to 6% but that is still nearly double what it was in March 2019, before the pandemic had begun. This week, the number of people being put out of work shrank, with 500,000 claiming unemployment for the first time as opposed to around 6million at the peak of the crisis. Last week, 550,000 new claims for unemployment were made. In total, some 9.7million people in America are claiming some form of unemployment aid. But the number of people getting back into work fell far short of what Wall Street predicted. Only 266,000 new workers were registered for April, a quarter of the 1million that were predicted. In May 2019, the unemployment rate was 3.9 percent. It skyrocketed to 14 percent in April 2020 and has since dropped but it's still 6 percent. Business owners, eager to revive their profits after a deadly year of closures, can't find staff. 'Every hospitality owner I know is suffering. We just cannot find workers at all. 'A lot of them have changed industries into construction, for example, or others have just moved away. What we're seeing is a major wage increase and an increase in vendor costs. 'This is going to lead to higher prices on food checks so when customers are paying 20 percent more in their bills, they'll know why. 'It's inflation across the board, in every aspect, and it's here now. 'We're no longer waiting for it - it has arrived,' restaurateur Robert Mahon, who owns Toro Loco and Broadstone in New York City and is affiliated with the Pig N Whistle Group, told DailyMail.com on Friday. 'If I was working a back-breaking job and making $600 a week and I had had the option of making $600 and not breaking my back — the choice is obvious. The government unintentionally shot itself in the foot. 'The stimulus plan is being completely undermined by the unemployment program,' Philippe Massoud, CEO of the Lebanese eatery Ilili, told The New York Post. McDonald's is offering bonuses to hire people, and fast-food chain Chipotle is pushing one of its perks - paying college tuition for workers who have been with them for four months or more. One unemployed restaurant worker told AP anonymously that she'll use the unemployment benefits as leverage to get higher pay. 'Unemployment benefits have been like collective bargaining. They made a union out of all of us,' she said. 'Demand is outpacing supply,' said Daniel Zhao, senior economist at Glassdoor, a job listings website. 'That’s something that is occurring across the economy, in semiconductors to lumber, and we’re seeing a similar crunch in the labor market.' The reasons people are giving range from still being scared of COVID, not wanting to get a vaccine, being unable to find childcare for their kids who are still at home and, not seeing the point when benefits are high. The latter has Republican leaders up in arms. South Carolina and Montana have both dropped out of the $300-a-week boost in federal unemployment payments. 'We have flooded the zone with checks that I’m sure everybody loves to get, and also enhanced unemployment. 'And what I hear from business people, hospitals, educators, everybody across the state all week is, regretfully, it’s actually more lucrative for many Kentuckians and Americans to not work than work. 'We have a workforce shortage and we have raising inflation, both directly related to this recent bill that just passed,' Kentucky Sen. Mitch McConnell said on Thursday. Gov. Henry McMaster in South Carolina is also stopping the federal payments to 'address ongoing workforce shortages throughout' his state. DeSantis, in Florida, said he is now going to demand that people claiming unemployment benefits start proving that they are looking for work. 'Normally when you’re getting unemployment, the whole idea is that’s temporary, and you need to be looking for work to be able to get off unemployment. 'It was a disaster [at the beginning of the pandemic], so we suspended those job search requirements. I think it’s pretty clear now, we have an abundance of job openings. 'We suspended that last year at this time because, quite frankly, there weren’t jobs. 'I think now we’re in just a different situation, you have a surplus of jobs, particularly in restaurant, lodging, hospitality, that people want to hire. 'But we also just want to make sure, like, look, if you’re really unemployed, can’t get a job, that’s one thing. 'But making sure that you’re doing your due diligence to look for work, and making sure those incentives align better,' he said at a press conference on Friday. Montana's Governor Greg Gianforte is giving people $1,200 bonuses to return to work. 'Montana is open for business again, but I hear from too many employers throughout our state who can’t find workers. Nearly every sector in our economy faces a labor shortage. 'Incentives matter and the vast expansion of federal unemployment benefits is now doing more harm than good. We need to incentivize Montanans to reenter the workforce. 'Our return-to-work bonus and the return to pre-pandemic unemployment programs will help get more Montanans back to work,' he said in an announcement this week. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 07, 2021, 11:01:30 pm Maybe it says something that waiters that make $2 / hr and get no benefits, would prefer instead to have stability of making about $15/hr rather than rushing back to the jobs that shit-canned them instantly last year.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: dolphins4life on May 08, 2021, 01:05:14 am It paid not to wor in Obama's America.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 08, 2021, 02:39:13 am Pretty strange how "free market capitalists" magically forget how supply and demand curves work the moment they want more employees than they have. Here's a crazy idea:
Try offering higher wages! Everyone has all this spending money, right? The economy is "roaring." So why are employers still acting like we're in a recession? I remember that in 2009, my job notified all employees that they would be taking a 10% pay cut across the board due to the "slow economy," and if you don't like it, there's the door. So now that the economy is doing great and customers have money to burn, where's the raises? Oh wait... all that money has been going to stock buybacks (https://www.treasuryandrisk.com/2020/06/04/corporate-stock-buybacks-hit-record-levels/?slreturn=20210408024233) and dividend payouts (https://www.barrons.com/articles/global-dividend-payouts-hit-a-record-in-2019-and-80-of-u-s-companies-increased-their-dividends-51581944402). It's also incredibly convenient that when we have trillions of dollars in tax cuts for the wealthiest few, an improving economy is A Good Thing and the words "inflation" are not mentioned on this planet... but once we start giving money to the littles, suddenly we have to worry about them being properly incentivized to keep working and there's a bunch of pearl-clutching about the economy "overheating" (?!). Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 08, 2021, 07:13:34 am LMAO ... they live fine on unemployment but paying them that wage isn’t enough for their “skills” or lack there of? Many people are making less on unemployment but are content because it doesn’t require any commitments to working. Nothing like ignoring the obvious and that is many people don’t want to work, go to school, or develop skills to get a higher paying job. Poor people who need to work are out there busting their ass to get ahead but lazy people are content to stay at the bottom and America shouldn’t be on the hook for that. Minorities from other countries succeed here because they want to. It’s really that simple.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: MyGodWearsAHoodie on May 08, 2021, 10:10:43 am That is mostly Republican fantasy land. Most of the labor shortage can be traced to lower immigration (prior administration) and lack of seasonal guest workers (due to travel restrictions during a pandemic). Expanded unemployment benefits is a factor, but a relatively small factor.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 08, 2021, 11:51:04 am That is mostly Republican fantasy land. Most of the labor shortage can be traced to lower immigration (prior administration) and lack of seasonal guest workers (due to travel restrictions during a pandemic). Expanded unemployment benefits is a factor, but a relatively small factor. There's an easy way to replace the jobs that illegal immigrants do..... make prison inmates do it. Maybe if they are so tired after a hard day's labor, they won't have the strength or desire to beat up on the CO's or ass rape each other. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 08, 2021, 04:20:07 pm LMAO ... they live fine on unemployment but paying them that wage isn’t enough for their “skills” or lack there of? Many people are making less on unemployment but are content because it doesn’t require any commitments to working. So what about the people who are literally making more on unemployment?The federal minimum wage is $7.25/hr. $300/week in additional unemployment benefits, for a 40-hour week, works out to $7.50/hr. If you have a minimum wage job, you literally make more money staying home during the pandemic than you would going to work. And this is before we account for people who can't go to work because their child's school is closed due to the continuing pandemic. I think if we had a $15 minimum wage, you wouldn't be seeing nearly as much of this "problem." Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 08, 2021, 05:38:36 pm There's an easy way to replace the jobs that illegal immigrants do..... make prison inmates do it. Maybe if they are so tired after a hard day's labor, they won't have the strength or desire to beat up on the CO's or ass rape each other. for the record, i'm against using slave labor Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 08, 2021, 06:41:50 pm for the record, i'm against using slave labor Slave labor? Bullshit. These guys could be paid a decent wage that goes on their books so they can buy cigarettes, Ramen noodles, candy bars, sodas, and whatever else they need. The money can also go towards their court costs/fines. Any money left over when they get out of prison is given to them to hopefully start a new life outside that is crime free. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 08, 2021, 08:14:47 pm make prison inmates do it. I call your bullshit and double down. Forcing someone to work is literally what slavery does Unless I'm mistaking the meaning of the word MAKE... Does make now mean offer a job with a decent wage so they can buy ramen? Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 08, 2021, 08:24:18 pm I call your bullshit and double down. Forcing someone to work is literally what slavery does Unless I'm mistaking the meaning of the word MAKE... Does make now mean offer a job with a decent wage so they can buy ramen? Keep in mind that these are prison inmates. Meaning they have committed crimes and are being punished. When you're in jail, you have no rights. So yes, hard labor can and should be part of the program. If they can MAKE you squat and cough so you're not smuggling any contraband inside your anal orifice, then they can MAKE you perform hard labor. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 08, 2021, 08:27:09 pm Keep in mind that these are prison inmates. Meaning they have committed crimes and are being punished. When you're in jail, you have no rights. So yes, hard labor can and should be part of the program. If they can MAKE you squat and cough so you're not smuggling any contraband inside your anal orifice, then they can MAKE you perform hard labor. I agree with you . .they can MAKE you work .. and I'm against slave labor .. so here we are Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 08, 2021, 10:48:25 pm Illegal immigrants aren't stamping license plates. They are working in agriculture, landscaping, housecleaning, food service, etc. I don't see how we could possibly "put prison inmates to work" doing all those kinds of jobs and more. They wouldn't even be in prison at that point.
This is before we even get to the question of who profits from this work. The idea of renting out inmates at sub-minimum-wage prices to private corporations is ridiculous. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 09, 2021, 12:10:18 am Illegal immigrants aren't stamping license plates. They are working in agriculture, landscaping, housecleaning, food service, etc. I don't see how we could possibly "put prison inmates to work" doing all those kinds of jobs and more. They wouldn't even be in prison at that point. This is before we even get to the question of who profits from this work. The idea of renting out inmates at sub-minimum-wage prices to private corporations is ridiculous. They would be taken out to the work site (a farm or construction site or whatever) by a prison bus and closely monitored by armed guards. And they wouldn't necessarily be working for sub minimum wage. They'd get paid a decent wage. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: pondwater on May 09, 2021, 09:52:27 am If you raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, it's common sense and reasonable to assume that businesses hire less people. Therefore, the people they do hire will have more work and/or responsibilities placed on them. And I have a feeling that a good percentage of the low wage employees don't want more work and responsibilities. Most of them just want their pay doubled for doing the same thing they've been doing. And when, not if, the government stops the free money train. These are the people that won't be in good shape regardless of what the minimum wage is set to. People usually take the path of least resistance and giving people a free ride only enables that poor behavior.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 09, 2021, 03:38:53 pm They would be taken out to the work site (a farm or construction site or whatever) by a prison bus and closely monitored by armed guards. And they wouldn't necessarily be working for sub minimum wage. They'd get paid a decent wage. So how much taxpayer money is this worth to you?The amount of guards you need to secure prisoners in a fully-locked down institution (where weapons are banned) is significantly less than the number of guards you would need to continue to secure that institution, but also to take prisoners out in the community and guard them with weapons. So we'll be spending a lot more money on prison guard salaries. Implicit in this plan is that the general public is going to accept prisoners with armed guards doing their landscaping and housecleaning, which... seems unlikely. Especially if the companies that are hiring them are potentially going to be paying more than they are paying the illegal immigrants today. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 09, 2021, 03:48:02 pm If you raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour, it's common sense and reasonable to assume that businesses hire less people. It is equally reasonable to assume that those businesses will have fewer customers (and therefore, less income) than their competitors who are fully staffed and can provide superior customer service.Over the last year, we have seen ample evidence of what happens when you give low-income people more money: they spend it. Now, if you're an owner of a business and you don't want to hire enough people to take the money that's trying to come in the door, that's on you. A $15 minimum wage is not merely you paying more money to your employees; it is every working adult getting more money. As a business, customers having more money is GOOD for you... especially if you are a business frequently patronized by low-income customers! Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Phishfan on May 09, 2021, 07:14:49 pm A $15 minimum wage is not merely you paying more money to your employees; it is every working adult getting more money. As a business, customers having more money is GOOD for you... especially if you are a business frequently patronized by low-income customers! This is false. A raise in minimum wage does not guarantee anyone already making more than that any more money. There is even a thought that people making more than that now will see a wage freeze due to the other employees getting raises. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: pondwater on May 09, 2021, 09:04:13 pm It is equally reasonable to assume that those businesses will have fewer customers (and therefore, less income) than their competitors who are fully staffed and can provide superior customer service. If you think you're going to outsmart the business sector, you're wrong. If you make them pay more wages they'll do any number of the following to offset the higher cost of labor. Raise prices, hire less people, cut hours, cut benefits, increase productivity requirements, or move jobs to a lower labor and/or lower taxes. $15 an hour doesn't help much if you have your hours cut and the cost of living rises. You guys think that you can just double the minimum wage without any other affects, you're crazy...Over the last year, we have seen ample evidence of what happens when you give low-income people more money: they spend it. Now, if you're an owner of a business and you don't want to hire enough people to take the money that's trying to come in the door, that's on you. A $15 minimum wage is not merely you paying more money to your employees; it is every working adult getting more money. As a business, customers having more money is GOOD for you... especially if you are a business frequently patronized by low-income customers! Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 09, 2021, 09:38:42 pm This is false. A raise in minimum wage does not guarantee anyone already making more than that any more money. That is correct: if you make more than minimum wage right now, you will not see a pay increase.The flip side of that is that if you are a business that is currently paying your employees more than $15/hr, an increase in the minimum wage means (some portion of) your customers have more money, full stop. Quote There is even a thought that people making more than that now will see a wage freeze due to the other employees getting raises. People see wage freezes for any reason or no reason at all, in a good economy or a bad one.Well, that's not exactly true: it is for a reason. The reason is "management wants to increase profits," which is something you cannot prevent... no matter how low you keep wages. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 09, 2021, 09:49:06 pm If you think you're going to outsmart the business sector, you're wrong. If you make them pay more wages they'll do any number of the following to offset the higher cost of labor. Raise prices, hire less people, cut hours, cut benefits, increase productivity requirements, or move jobs to a lower labor and/or lower taxes. American workers have had record-setting productivity over the last 40 years. And guess what? The business sector has done all of those things anyway!Since the dawn of the Reagan Revolution and trickle-down economics, we have tried depending on the charity of American businesses to pay their employees a living wage (instead of forcing them to). This experiment has been a widespread failure. Instead of paying their employees a decent wage, corporations prefer to pay poverty wages and have the taxpayer safety net make up the difference (on everything from food stamps, to section 8 housing, to Medicaid). They exploit every loophole to offshore their profits so they can avoid paying taxes back to the communities that funded them. They cut hours so they can shift the cost of employee healthcare from themselves to the taxpayer. All so that executives can get more bonuses and shareholders can get larger dividends. The social contract has been broken; businesses did not hold up their end. I shed no tears for employers who cry about not being able to find anyone willing to work for poverty wages, serving the public during a global pandemic. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 10, 2021, 02:06:28 pm I know from experience that many of the non workers are college students. No reason to work if you are making more or even a little less and doing nothing. Raising the minimum wage to $15 won't make most people go back to work if they can make anything close to that on unemployment. Like I said ... the people who "need" the money have gone back to work because they can't afford not having a job when the free money runs out. Most of the ones choosing not to work are people who are perfectly fine with skating by on the bare minimum.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 10, 2021, 04:25:14 pm Raising the minimum wage to $15 won't make most people go back to work if they can make anything close to that on unemployment. Like I said ... the people who "need" the money have gone back to work because they can't afford not having a job when the free money runs out. These two sentences directly contradict each other.There are definitely more people concerned about keeping a $15/hr job after the supplemental unemployment runs out than there are people concerned about keeping an $8/hr job. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 10, 2021, 07:09:50 pm These two sentences directly contradict each other. again ... $15 an hour for a job that requires zero skill is absolutely ludicrous. Our local Mcdonalds is begging people to work for $11 and that's crazy to me. 95% of America shouldn't have to pay higher prices only because some people have no desire to do any better with their lives. There are definitely more people concerned about keeping a $15/hr job after the supplemental unemployment runs out than there are people concerned about keeping an $8/hr job. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 10, 2021, 07:25:13 pm It appears Biden is now at least aware of the problem. Now whether he does anything about it ...
President Joe Biden on Monday said that anyone taking unemployment who gets offered a 'suitable job' must take it or lose their benefits after experts revealed that people making $32,000 before COVID could now earn more by staying at home. 'We're going to make it clear that anyone collecting unemployment, who is offered a suitable job must take the job or lose their unemployment benefits,' the president said in remarks at the White House. 'There are a few COVID-19 related exceptions, so that people aren't forced to choose between their basic safety and a paycheck, but otherwise, that's the law,' he added. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9563313/Biden-says-taking-unemployment-offered-suitable-job-it.html Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: masterfins on May 10, 2021, 08:56:35 pm It is equally reasonable to assume that those businesses will have fewer customers (and therefore, less income) than their competitors who are fully staffed and can provide superior customer service. Over the last year, we have seen ample evidence of what happens when you give low-income people more money: they spend it. Now, if you're an owner of a business and you don't want to hire enough people to take the money that's trying to come in the door, that's on you. A $15 minimum wage is not merely you paying more money to your employees; it is every working adult getting more money. As a business, customers having more money is GOOD for you... especially if you are a business frequently patronized by low-income customers! I'm not against raising the minimum wage to $15/hour over a five year period, which is I believe what Biden's proposal is; many states are almost there already. But your first statement about fully staffed and businesses with better service out performing low cost operations is completely wrong. There is a reason the Wal-Mart's and Home Depot's have been putting small businesses out of business across the country, and it's not because they have better service. It's because their prices are cheaper because they buy on a large scale, AND they have lower pay and lower benefits than the small mom & pop businesses traditionally had. The better staffed/better service businesses (with higher prices) only appeal to upper income individuals. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: masterfins on May 10, 2021, 09:05:38 pm There are definitely more people concerned about keeping a $15/hr job after the supplemental unemployment runs out than there are people concerned about keeping an $8/hr job. Yes, but here where I live in Upstate NY the minimum wage is $12.50/hour ($13.50 for fast food restaurants); and because the minimum wage is already high here people aren't worried about going back to work. There are "now hiring" signs outside of every type of business and they can't get workers. Business are offering hiring bonuses to get people for $12.50/ hour minimum wage jobs at grocery stores and restaurants. No one wants to work with the current unemployment free ride. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: pondwater on May 10, 2021, 09:34:34 pm Yes, but here where I live in Upstate NY the minimum wage is $12.50/hour ($13.50 for fast food restaurants); and because the minimum wage is already high here people aren't worried about going back to work. There are "now hiring" signs outside of every type of business and they can't get workers. Business are offering hiring bonuses to get people for $12.50/ hour minimum wage jobs at grocery stores and restaurants. No one wants to work with the current unemployment free ride. Burger King up the street starting at $10/hr and offering a hiring bonus. It's ridiculous. I have a feeling that a lot of people are going to wish they took a job earlier.Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 10, 2021, 10:59:00 pm I'm not against raising the minimum wage to $15/hour over a five year period, which is I believe what Biden's proposal is; many states are almost there already. But your first statement about fully staffed and businesses with better service out performing low cost operations is completely wrong. There is a reason the Wal-Mart's and Home Depot's have been putting small businesses out of business across the country, and it's not because they have better service. It's because their prices are cheaper because they buy on a large scale, AND they have lower pay and lower benefits than the small mom & pop businesses traditionally had. The better staffed/better service businesses (with higher prices) only appeal to upper income individuals. It's because the US taxpayer subsidizes their poverty wages. Every walmart employee that gets food stamps, medicaid, housing assistance or any other type of poverty assistance is an act of government support of their exploitation based business model. The minute workers are given a choice to not work for crap wages, they take that opportunity however it comes. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 10, 2021, 11:18:48 pm again ... $15 an hour for a job that requires zero skill is absolutely ludicrous. What is the appropriate wage for an undesirable job that requires zero prior skill?Garbagemen are not paid well because the job is difficult and requires extensive training; they are paid well because everyone wants the job done, but few want to do it. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 10, 2021, 11:23:30 pm Business are offering hiring bonuses to get people for $12.50/ hour minimum wage jobs at grocery stores and restaurants. No one wants to work with the current unemployment free ride. Given that grocery stores and restaurants are right behind healthcare as two of the industries most likely to expose workers to the potentially-infected public, it's hard to blame people for preferring to stay home on unemployment.Especially when you have people on the "news" channel telling them that the vaccines are untested and potentially dangerous. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 11, 2021, 08:36:55 am Free market only applies when people are being screwed. Give people any baseline of stability any sort of safety net and now the free market needs help from the government.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 11, 2021, 11:50:55 am What is the appropriate wage for an undesirable job that requires zero prior skill? Great example although you don’t see it. Its a very physical and demanding job just like construction. Again ... jobs people working at Burger King do not want to do to make money so they don’t deserve to be paid like garbage men. Garbagemen are not paid well because the job is difficult and requires extensive training; they are paid well because everyone wants the job done, but few want to do it. BTW ... not sure your $15 an hour thing is a great example either as places like Target, Costco, Starbucks are looking for people too and they pay $15 an hour. Starbucks is drive through only and sometimes closed altogether. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 11, 2021, 01:41:03 pm Seems to me the lowest paying jobs frequently require the most physical labor. Housecleaning, janitorial services, and agricultural are some of the most backbreaking work out there, but you apparently believe that since they "require no skill," they deserve to be paid poverty wages. Not sure why you believe that operating a garbage truck entitles a person to a living wage while working as a fry cook doesn't, outside of contempt for people who work in the fast food industry.
As far as labor shortages at Target and Costco, they aren't the businesses I see posting the Facebook chain letters about how they are "short staffed" because "nobody wants to work." Strangely, those signs are almost always posted at fast food restaurants in areas with pitiful minimum wage laws. A coincidence, I assure you! Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 11, 2021, 02:08:13 pm These identically-worded signs spontaneously appearing across the republic are extremely genuine and normal, believe me:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ey9TotWVUAA2WzP?format=jpg&name=small) (https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/49193338c25371acc1e12e2bc3e9d97e) (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ey-9lxVUYAEveGb?format=jpg&name=small) (https://wicu.images.worldnow.com/images/20652974_G.jpeg?lastEditedDate=1619043976000) Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 11, 2021, 02:22:50 pm Seems to me the lowest paying jobs frequently require the most physical labor. Housecleaning, janitorial services, and agricultural are some of the most backbreaking work out there, but you apparently believe that since they "require no skill," they deserve to be paid poverty wages. Not sure why you believe that operating a garbage truck entitles a person to a living wage while working as a fry cook doesn't, outside of contempt for people who work in the fast food industry. LMAO ... If denial was a person it would look exactly like you Dan. It's a service industry conspiracy for sure. Housecleaning is done by everyone so no special skills ... or at least should be as well as janitorial services. I'm guessing by agriculture you mean migrant workers and not the farmers but I can tell you from very first hand experience the Mexicans I picked cucumbers along side of made pretty decent money as it was based on how many baskets or bushels you picked. We used to skip school to go make money for the day. I was slow but could pick enough to pay for my speeding ticket and then have enough money left over to take my girlfriend to dinner in one day. Today at $15 an hour would be $120 so it was at least that much for even this slow arse gringo. As far as labor shortages at Target and Costco, they aren't the businesses I see posting the Facebook chain letters about how they are "short staffed" because "nobody wants to work." Strangely, those signs are almost always posted at fast food restaurants in areas with pitiful minimum wage laws. A coincidence, I assure you! Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 11, 2021, 02:39:55 pm You keep switching the criteria for who deserves to earn a decent living. First you said it was about skilled labor, but when I mentioned garbagemen, then you said they make good money because it's serious labor. And then when I mention people who are scrubbing and mopping all day, suddenly it's back to "no skills." So which is it? Should unskilled laborers be able to make a living, or not?
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 11, 2021, 02:47:19 pm When half the people don't want to work because they think the other half will take care of them through the government, and the other half of the people realize it doesn't make sense to work because the government will take what they've earned, then that, my friends, is the beginning of the end of any nation.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 11, 2021, 03:11:11 pm Put down the Ayn Rand book. That shit's fantasy land nonsense.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 11, 2021, 03:25:14 pm Put down the Ayn Rand book. That shit's fantasy land nonsense. Fantasy land nonsense my ass. That was said by a Southern Baptist pastor whom I've met. He also said that you cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Dolphster on May 11, 2021, 04:02:23 pm Put down the Ayn Rand book. That shit's fantasy land nonsense. Ayn Rand was actually right on the money with about 75% of her ideologies. Her biggest downfall was the failure to understand/accept that any place with an established government would never allow her approach to even be tried because no government is going to give up the power to allow it. Viewed solely as a philosophical theory, her "Objectivist Movement" and laissez faire approach to government was genius. As an actual concept to become a reality, it is as you said, "fantasy land" because generally speaking, people suck and governments suck even more. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Sunstroke on May 11, 2021, 04:34:19 pm Fantasy land nonsense my ass. That was said by a Southern Baptist pastor whom I've met. He also said that you cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. Unless that Southern Baptist minister is a psychic, then you know as much about the future as he does. Clairvoyance aside, those are catchy quotes. I know a used car salesman who can whip out a poignant quote or two as well when it's called for...not sure I'd take his word for what the future holds either. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 11, 2021, 04:38:35 pm You keep switching the criteria for who deserves to earn a decent living. First you said it was about skilled labor, but when I mentioned garbagemen, then you said they make good money because it's serious labor. And then when I mention people who are scrubbing and mopping all day, suddenly it's back to "no skills." So which is it? Should unskilled laborers be able to make a living, or not? Nope ... my criteria is you get paid a living wage for doing a job that pays a living wage and if you are fighting high schoolers for a job then that ain't the one. You can play semantics just to argue all you like but you know I'm right. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: dolphins4life on May 11, 2021, 06:50:37 pm Could somebody update me on this? Are people not going bac to work because they earn more on unemployment?
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 11, 2021, 07:36:23 pm Could somebody update me on this? Are people not going bac to work because they earn more on unemployment? That's exactly what is happening. Companies are offering higher wages and sign-on bonuses and people are still not biting. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 11, 2021, 08:19:58 pm Companies are offering higher wages and sign-on bonuses and people are still not biting. Not necessarily. Many of the companies complaining about a lack of labor have mentioned nothing whatsoever about increasing wages. They think their existing wage structure is good enough, and are whining about unemployment checks being too big.Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 11, 2021, 08:34:02 pm Not necessarily. Many of the companies complaining about a lack of labor have mentioned nothing whatsoever about increasing wages. They think their existing wage structure is good enough, and are whining about unemployment checks being too big. Not necessarily higher than unemployment but higher than they used to. The Wawa down the street from my house is offering $13 an hour to start plus a $500 sign on bonus. Plus they offer full benefits and a free sandwich every shift. My 17 year old son just landed his first job there. He starts Saturday. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 11, 2021, 08:41:08 pm Not necessarily higher than unemployment but higher than they used to. The Wawa down the street from my house is offering $13 an hour to start plus a $500 sign on bonus. Plus they offer full benefits and a free sandwich every shift. My 17 year old son just landed his first job there. He starts Saturday. so they can find employees just fine, you see that first hand Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: pondwater on May 11, 2021, 09:22:25 pm so they can find employees just fine, you see that first hand Only the smart ones. The other ones are trading their future for a few extra dollars in "free" money. Nothing free in life, it will catch up with them eventually. They'll be the ones really complaining down the road when they'll be living on that "free" SS check money with little to no retirement, no savings, and a spotty job record that will afford them the option of being a Walmart greeter for their final decade above ground. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 11, 2021, 10:02:14 pm If only conservatives actually believed in the kind of karma you describe.
In reality, the response of Republican governors has been to prematurely cancel (https://nypost.com/2021/05/11/5-gop-governors-reject-bidens-enhanced-unemployment-benefits/) these extra federally funded unemployment benefits, all in an effort to force these stupid and lazy workers back into the jobforce ASAP. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 11, 2021, 10:23:28 pm If only conservatives actually believed in the kind of karma you describe. In reality, the response of Republican governors has been to prematurely cancel (https://nypost.com/2021/05/11/5-gop-governors-reject-bidens-enhanced-unemployment-benefits/) these extra federally funded unemployment benefits, all in an effort to force these stupid and lazy workers back into the jobforce ASAP. Because the job force is where they belong rather than living off money taken out of my earnings. The cancellations were not premature. They were long overdue. There's been a year of shutdowns and cancellations galore but the party is over. Time to get back to normal. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 12, 2021, 12:23:05 am I don't think "These people are stupid and lazy, and also our economy will collapse if they stay home and receive income that they will immediately spend" is a convincing argument.
If these people are actually making less money going to work than they would staying home, and the money that they would receive by staying home comes largely from the federal government, then the net outcome of forcing them back to work is... less income to the community. Lose-lose. If someone, somewhere, is not as miserable as they should be, there will be a raucous crowd in this country shouting to make sure they are... even if it means hurting themselves in the process. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 12, 2021, 12:37:58 am Nope ... my criteria is you get paid a living wage for doing a job that pays a living wage and if you are fighting high schoolers for a job then that ain't the one. You can play semantics just to argue all you like but you know I'm right. And what about 18-year-old high school dropouts working in construction? Unskilled labor is unskilled labor.The irony is that in countries where fast food employees get paid a decent wage, you don't just have "high schoolers" working there. That is obviously not a coincidence: Fast food workers earn $20 per hour in Denmark (https://ncfcatalyst.com/fast-food-workers-earn-20-per-hour-in-denmark/) An excerpt: "In Denmark, unions dominate and fast food companies aren’t nearly as popular as their U.S. counterparts. Despite smaller profits, the fast food industry as a whole offers their employees five weeks of paid vacation, paternity and maternity leave and a pension plan. Employees also report higher rates of satisfaction and stay with their jobs longer. McDonald’s employee retention rate in the U.S. averaged to less than eight months. In the U.S. where Denmark’s social safety net is reserved for leftists’ fantasies, paying fast food workers $20 hourly may seem impossible. Currently, unionization is difficult because fast food employees are technically employed by franchise owners, not the corporations as a whole. Seeking to sell the cheapest product, fast food companies say they can’t afford the 65 percent wage increase that many activists and protesters asked for. McDonald’s, for example, would have to raise prices 25 percent if they were to double their wages – from minimum $7.25 to $15 – costing customers up to a dollar more on popular items like the Big Mac, according to Bloomberg Businessweek. In Denmark, the Big Mac costs $5.60 to America’s $4.80, but consumer’s say it’s worth it." Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 12, 2021, 10:54:04 am Could somebody update me on this? Are people not going bac to work because they earn more on unemployment? Yes ... close to what they are making or in some cases more. It’s going to get worse if we keep giving away seemingly “free”money.President Joe Biden received further negative news Wednesday about the economic environment in the U.S. under his leadership as newly released numbers show that the economy is overheating and inflation is growing at an even higher rate than anticipated. “Inflation accelerated at its fastest pace in more than 12 years for April as the U.S. economic recovery kicked into gear and energy prices jumped higher,” CNBC reported. “The Consumer Price Index, which measures a basket of goods as well as energy and housing costs, rose 4.2% from a year ago, compared to the Dow Jones estimate for a 3.6% increase. The monthly gain was 0.8%, against the expected 0.2%.” Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 12, 2021, 10:56:12 am Not necessarily. Many of the companies complaining about a lack of labor have mentioned nothing whatsoever about increasing wages. They think their existing wage structure is good enough, and are whining about unemployment checks being too big. Starbucks is as liberal as you get and pays $15 an hour. What’s your excuse for them struggling to find people to work? Let me guess ... $15 is not enough money to serve coffee? Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 12, 2021, 11:57:47 am Maybe their higher wages are why Starbucks says they aren't struggling to find workers (https://www.businessinsider.com/starbucks-ceo-says-restaurant-worker-shortage-wont-hurt-coffee-chain-2021-4).
In fact, among the other big corporations that have already announced a $15 starting wage (e.g. Target, Amazon), I don't see any complaints about worker shortages. You know who is complaining? Fast food restaurants. (https://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-taco-bell-chipotle-offering-benefits-to-hire-workers-2021-4) Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 12, 2021, 12:53:27 pm Wanna know why fast food restaurants are having trouble finding and retaining workers during a pandemic? The answer is as predictable as it is obvious (https://prospect.org/labor/is-unemployment-insurance-behind-fast-food-labor-shortage/):
April Marit worked at a Jimmy John’s location in Florida for five years before she recently quit due to the working conditions she experienced throughout the pandemic, and the low pay. As an assistant manager, Marit worked throughout 2020 making just $9.50 an hour, and received a pay increase to $11 an hour in March 2021, she said, after several employees quit. A few months into the pandemic, Marit noted demand started to increase and understaffing became the norm. Some customers were aggressive in ignoring COVID-19 safety protocols. “I stayed because the store had no other staff. New employees would come in, work for a day or two, and then never show back up—and I don’t blame them,” said Marit. “Nobody deserves to be treated the way that customer service staff is these days. Not even for a $15 an hour minimum wage. I sure as heck wouldn’t go back to Jimmy John’s for that, and I loved my job before this.” --- Unsurprisingly, when workers in red states are exposed daily to COVIDiots who don't give a damn about following safety protocols, and every shift is a never-ending fight to get people to put your goddamned mask on like it says on the front door, people don't want to work there. Reap what you sow. You guys think that eliminating unemployment benefits will be enough to solve this problem, but that's far from clear. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 12, 2021, 02:41:40 pm Maybe their higher wages are why Starbucks says they aren't struggling to find workers (https://www.businessinsider.com/starbucks-ceo-says-restaurant-worker-shortage-wont-hurt-coffee-chain-2021-4). I don’t care what they say or aren’t saying ... here in the Orlando area they are struggling. You don’t just switch to drive thru only and shortened hours because you wanted to. In fact, among the other big corporations that have already announced a $15 starting wage (e.g. Target, Amazon), I don't see any complaints about worker shortages. You know who is complaining? Fast food restaurants. (https://www.businessinsider.com/mcdonalds-taco-bell-chipotle-offering-benefits-to-hire-workers-2021-4) Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 12, 2021, 02:44:11 pm Wanna know why fast food restaurants are having trouble finding and retaining workers during a pandemic? The answer is as predictable as it is obvious (https://prospect.org/labor/is-unemployment-insurance-behind-fast-food-labor-shortage/): Glad you brought red states into this. People are moving in droves to red states but are leaving blue states. Can’t wait to hear your excuse as to why Republican failures are causing this too! 😂April Marit worked at a Jimmy John’s location in Florida for five years before she recently quit due to the working conditions she experienced throughout the pandemic, and the low pay. As an assistant manager, Marit worked throughout 2020 making just $9.50 an hour, and received a pay increase to $11 an hour in March 2021, she said, after several employees quit. A few months into the pandemic, Marit noted demand started to increase and understaffing became the norm. Some customers were aggressive in ignoring COVID-19 safety protocols. “I stayed because the store had no other staff. New employees would come in, work for a day or two, and then never show back up—and I don’t blame them,” said Marit. “Nobody deserves to be treated the way that customer service staff is these days. Not even for a $15 an hour minimum wage. I sure as heck wouldn’t go back to Jimmy John’s for that, and I loved my job before this.” --- Unsurprisingly, when workers in red states are exposed daily to COVIDiots who don't give a damn about following safety protocols, and every shift is a never-ending fight to get people to put your goddamned mask on like it says on the front door, people don't want to work there. Reap what you sow. You guys think that eliminating unemployment benefits will be enough to solve this problem, but that's far from clear. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 12, 2021, 02:47:30 pm I don’t care what they say or aren’t saying ... here in the Orlando area they are struggling. You don’t just switch to drive thru only and shortened hours because you wanted to. who cares what the companies say, i know better than them the internal state of their corporations! Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 12, 2021, 02:50:56 pm Glad you brought red states into this. People are moving in droves to red states but are leaving blue states. Can’t wait to hear your excuse as to why Republican failures are causing this too! Maybe people in blue states are just tired of bankrolling red state excess and irresponsibility Maybe people in blue states feel like for electoral reasons they need to disperse and make red states bluer Maybe too many people live too concentrated in blue states so they're choosing to move to the relatively sparsely populated red states. Maybe since people in blue states make more money that people in red states, they're choosing to move to a poorer state to allow their money to stretch farther. Much like Americans have moved to third world countries like costa rica or belize to retire and let their money be stretched farther. That last one in fact, while I live in florida and think sometimes, wow .. if i were working 100% remotely i could move to (insert poor red state here) and my salary would go so much further. People in new york and california have the same thoughts, wow .. i could make san fransisco money and live in montana .. how awesome would that be. That's why montana is turning purple. You're implying it's because people prefer red state policies, i'm saying it's because of red state mismanagement that have turned them into pseudo third world states that makes them attractive for people to move to. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Dave Gray on May 12, 2021, 03:30:20 pm Our real estate market in S. Florida (we're pretty blue locally, despite the state iteself being red) is flooded with California money right now.
Even though our real estate is expensive, it's still quite a bit less than L.A. and we don't have state income tax. So, you can sell your house and buy a bigger one here, straight cash, homie. It's causing a weird situation where if you sell your house for a profit here, you can't really afford to live here anymore....so like Fau said, the money move is to move out of State. Or really, it's to move to a different part of the state. Port St. Lucie has blown up over the past decade from people migrating North from the Palm Beaches -- your money just stretches so much further there. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: masterfins on May 12, 2021, 03:40:10 pm Given that grocery stores and restaurants are right behind healthcare as two of the industries most likely to expose workers to the potentially-infected public, it's hard to blame people for preferring to stay home on unemployment. Especially when you have people on the "news" channel telling them that the vaccines are untested and potentially dangerous. Unfortunately we have turned into a service driven economy with manufacturing jobs shipped out of the country, and you can't blame that on Trump, he instituted policies to bring business back into the US. As for your other comments the majority of these workers aren't NOT getting jobs because of the fear of Covid, they are staying home because they would rather do nothing and get as much (or close to it) by collecting unemployment. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: masterfins on May 12, 2021, 03:57:11 pm Maybe people in blue states are just tired of bankrolling red state excess and irresponsibility Maybe people in blue states feel like for electoral reasons they need to disperse and make red states bluer Maybe too many people live too concentrated in blue states so they're choosing to move to the relatively sparsely populated red states. Maybe since people in blue states make more money that people in red states, they're choosing to move to a poorer state to allow their money to stretch farther. Much like Americans have moved to third world countries like costa rica or belize to retire and let their money be stretched farther. That last one in fact, while I live in florida and think sometimes, wow .. if i were working 100% remotely i could move to (insert poor red state here) and my salary would go so much further. People in new york and california have the same thoughts, wow .. i could make san fransisco money and live in montana .. how awesome would that be. That's why montana is turning purple. You're implying it's because people prefer red state policies, i'm saying it's because of red state mismanagement that have turned them into pseudo third world states that makes them attractive for people to move to. What's this Red State mismanagement that you talk about, but provide no context for? Two of the biggest Blue States in the country, California and New York (I live in NY), are the highest taxed most mismanaged states in the Union. There isn't a single Red State that I can think of that comes close to how screwed up California and New York are. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 12, 2021, 04:18:44 pm What's this Red State mismanagement that you talk about, but provide no context for? Two of the biggest Blue States in the country, California and New York (I live in NY), are the highest taxed most mismanaged states in the Union. There isn't a single Red State that I can think of that comes close to how screwed up California and New York are. Yep. It says quite a bit when buying a large soda is illegal or the state can't properly maintain its national parks. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 12, 2021, 09:01:56 pm I don’t care what they say or aren’t saying ... here in the Orlando area they are struggling. You don’t just switch to drive thru only and shortened hours because you wanted to. Notwithstanding Fau's excellent point about you thinking you know more about Starbucks than their own CEO, consider that maybe the Starbucks in your area are reducing service because they have a shortage of customers, not employees.I seriously doubt that all the teleworkers who pick up coffee during their morning commute are going to continue to drive to Starbucks every morning when they are working from home. Glad you brought red states into this. People are moving in droves to red states but are leaving blue states. Can’t wait to hear your excuse as to why Republican failures are causing this too! 😂 Blue states generally have more expensive real estate because more people want to live there. There's a reason why Wall Street, Tinseltown, and Silicon Valley are all in blue states, and it's not the tax rates.So when people get priced out of housing in blue states, they move to less expensive, less populated red states. The problem for you is that they tend to bring their liberal values with them. CO and VA used to be solidly Republican and now they are Democratic strongholds; AZ, GA, and NC are getting bluer by the day. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 12, 2021, 09:10:51 pm What's this Red State mismanagement that you talk about, but provide no context for? Two of the biggest Blue States in the country, California and New York (I live in NY), are the highest taxed most mismanaged states in the Union. There isn't a single Red State that I can think of that comes close to how screwed up California and New York are. During this pandemic, CA managed to save up a $75B budget surplus (https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2021/05/10/california-has-a-staggering-757b-budget-surplus-1381195). We've already given out one round (https://www.kcra.com/article/california-oks-600-stimulus-payments-57-million-people/35592067) of $600 stimulus payments to people making under $30k/year, and the governor just proposed a second round (https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-05-10/gavin-newsom-new-stimulus-checks-californians-rent-assistance) for people making under $75k/year, as well as $5 billion in rental assistance to help tenants (and landlords!) affected by the nationwide eviction moratoriums.Meanwhile, this past winter our fellow patriots in the proud and free Lone Star State were burning their own furniture to keep warm (https://www.energylivenews.com/2021/02/18/americans-burn-furniture-for-heating-as-power-outages-rock-texas/) as their politicians fled to Mexican beaches (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/18/ted-cruz-cancun-flight-texas-storms-holiday-senator-reports), all because they wanted to avoid federal grid regulation so badly that they let their power grid fall to pieces. But tell me more about how badly blue states are mismanaged. How's your state doing? Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Fau Teixeira on May 12, 2021, 09:32:33 pm i had forgotten how huge of a shit-show texas was with that whole power grid thing, 3rd world state indeed
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Phishfan on May 12, 2021, 09:48:52 pm Yep. It says quite a bit when buying a large soda is illegal or the state can't properly maintain its national parks. Since when did any state become responsible for maintaining a national park? Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: pondwater on May 12, 2021, 10:28:26 pm And what about 18-year-old high school dropouts working in construction? Unskilled labor is unskilled labor. Yeah, not only is that actual product more expensive. Might want to check out the taxes in Denmark vs the US. That $20/hr isn't going to translate in to take home money. Just moving money from one pocket to another. The irony is that in countries where fast food employees get paid a decent wage, you don't just have "high schoolers" working there. That is obviously not a coincidence: Fast food workers earn $20 per hour in Denmark (https://ncfcatalyst.com/fast-food-workers-earn-20-per-hour-in-denmark/) An excerpt: "In Denmark, unions dominate and fast food companies aren’t nearly as popular as their U.S. counterparts. Despite smaller profits, the fast food industry as a whole offers their employees five weeks of paid vacation, paternity and maternity leave and a pension plan. Employees also report higher rates of satisfaction and stay with their jobs longer. McDonald’s employee retention rate in the U.S. averaged to less than eight months. In the U.S. where Denmark’s social safety net is reserved for leftists’ fantasies, paying fast food workers $20 hourly may seem impossible. Currently, unionization is difficult because fast food employees are technically employed by franchise owners, not the corporations as a whole. Seeking to sell the cheapest product, fast food companies say they can’t afford the 65 percent wage increase that many activists and protesters asked for. McDonald’s, for example, would have to raise prices 25 percent if they were to double their wages – from minimum $7.25 to $15 – costing customers up to a dollar more on popular items like the Big Mac, according to Bloomberg Businessweek. In Denmark, the Big Mac costs $5.60 to America’s $4.80, but consumer’s say it’s worth it." Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 13, 2021, 12:31:14 am Yeah, not only is that actual product more expensive. Might want to check out the taxes in Denmark vs the US. That $20/hr isn't going to translate in to take home money. Just moving money from one pocket to another. This right here. Denmark has a 65% federal income tax rate compared to about 33% here in the states. That's how they can afford the "free healthcare, child care and college tuition". It is all government subsidized but it's not free. Somebody's gotta pay for it. If you have a job, that somebody is you. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 13, 2021, 02:37:33 am If you guys are going to start philosophizing about tax rates, maybe you should learn how taxes work first. It doesn't sound like either of you understand what marginal tax rates are.
Denmark has a 65% federal income tax rate compared to about 33% here in the states. Every single part of this sentence is wrong.1) Denmark's maximum "federal" income tax rate is 22.99% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Denmark#Municipal_&_National_income_tax), but... 2) Someone making the equivalent of $20/hr (for a 37 hour Danish work week, that's $38,780/year in USD, or 237,014/year in DKK) is not being taxed at that top marginal rate; they would be taxed at an effective "federal" marginal tax rate of 11.2% 3) Denmark also has an additional municipal tax rate that ranges between 22.5% to 27.8%, but that's not "federal" (or even "national") tax rate; it is analogous to state & local taxes in the US (and has many available deductions) 4) The US federal income tax rate for someone making $20/hr is not anywhere near "33%"; it's less than 12% (11.87%, to be exact) And as far as all that "free healthcare" stuff? They don't pay a separate tax for Medicare while we do (1.45% payroll tax), and while they pay a flat yearly contribution for their Social Security (equivalent to ~$185/year), we pay a 6.2% payroll tax (for a person making $20/hr, that works out to ~$2580/year). So let's try a more accurate comparison. I'll even use the maximum municipal tax rate for the Danish employee with no deductions. (all numbers are in USD for simplicity) Danish McDonald's worker earning $20/hour: 37 hour Danish work week x 52 weeks = 1,924 hours 1,924 x $20 = $38,480 gross income $38,480 x 11.2% national marginal income tax rate = $4,310 in national income tax $38,480 x 27.8% municipal income tax rate = $10,697 in municipal income tax $38,410 - $4,310 national tax - $10,697 municipal tax - $185 Social Security contribution = $23,288 take home pay $23,288 / 1,924 hours = $12.10 net pay per hour Do I even need to do the American side of this equation at this point? Even if an American McDonald's worker had ZERO TAX DOLLARS taken out of their paycheck, they would need to be making at least $12.10/hr to compare to their Danish counterpart... who also gets free universal healthcare and 5 weeks paid vacation each year. Please stop with this extremely dumb tax argument. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 13, 2021, 01:39:43 pm Our real estate market in S. Florida (we're pretty blue locally, despite the state iteself being red) is flooded with California money right now. It's like that all over the state including the rural areas. I've been trying to buy a new house on some property and have lost a few bids even when we went 10K over asking price on the first day. It's not uncommon for people to accept offers for a few days in these crazy times. We have seen the market for what we are looking for go up about 200K in the last 5 months since we've been looking. We had a contract on a house with 11 acres so we put our house up for sale and sold it in one day for 20K over what we had originally thought. Unfortunately the owners backed out of our deal so we are still looking for a place. Florida is a desirable place to live for many reasons but lower taxes and the fact our state was open when others weren't are a huge driving point. Both of which are republican ideals. Even though our real estate is expensive, it's still quite a bit less than L.A. and we don't have state income tax. So, you can sell your house and buy a bigger one here, straight cash, homie. It's causing a weird situation where if you sell your house for a profit here, you can't really afford to live here anymore....so like Fau said, the money move is to move out of State. Or really, it's to move to a different part of the state. Port St. Lucie has blown up over the past decade from people migrating North from the Palm Beaches -- your money just stretches so much further there. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 13, 2021, 01:42:41 pm Maine was a red state for as long as I can remember, certainly since I moved here at 16. Since the 50's Maine has elected 12 Republican governors to four democratic ones, and one Independent. The shift has changed since the 90's, however, where Maine is a "split" state. The southern, most populated part votes blue, the northern, rural, red; this last election with pockets of blue. Why? In the last three years something like 30% of all real estate in the state has been purchased by out of state buyers. That's interesting and basically what is happening everywhere. California, Florida and New York are all like that aren't they? Rural and urban areas are having less and less in common. The perception of Maine being a "blue" state is untrue, the cities (Portland, Lewiston / Auburn, Bangor) drove this; and that has been largely driven by influx of new people in the state since the 90s. Once you get out of the cities and into "legacy" towns (where people have lived for generations) it's all red, but those town are now expanding as well. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 13, 2021, 02:08:31 pm That kind of analysis eventually requires you to start categorizing a state by land area instead of people. A state might look "red" on a map, but dirt doesn't get a vote; if the majority of voters are blue then the state is blue, even if those voters happen to live near each other.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: pondwater on May 13, 2021, 04:23:45 pm If you guys are going to start philosophizing about tax rates, maybe you should learn how taxes work first. It doesn't sound like either of you understand what marginal tax rates are. First of all, minimum wage in Denmark - None, it's negotiated between unions and employer associations; the average minimum wage for all private and public sector collective bargaining agreements was approximately DKK 110 (nominally $16) per hour, exclusive of pension benefits. Every single part of this sentence is wrong. 1) Denmark's maximum "federal" income tax rate is 22.99% (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Denmark#Municipal_&_National_income_tax), but... 2) Someone making the equivalent of $20/hr (for a 37 hour Danish work week, that's $38,780/year in USD, or 237,014/year in DKK) is not being taxed at that top marginal rate; they would be taxed at an effective "federal" marginal tax rate of 11.2% 3) Denmark also has an additional municipal tax rate that ranges between 22.5% to 27.8%, but that's not "federal" (or even "national") tax rate; it is analogous to state & local taxes in the US (and has many available deductions) 4) The US federal income tax rate for someone making $20/hr is not anywhere near "33%"; it's less than 12% (11.87%, to be exact) And as far as all that "free healthcare" stuff? They don't pay a separate tax for Medicare while we do (1.45% payroll tax), and while they pay a flat yearly contribution for their Social Security (equivalent to ~$185/year), we pay a 6.2% payroll tax (for a person making $20/hr, that works out to ~$2580/year). So let's try a more accurate comparison. I'll even use the maximum municipal tax rate for the Danish employee with no deductions. (all numbers are in USD for simplicity) Danish McDonald's worker earning $20/hour: 37 hour Danish work week x 52 weeks = 1,924 hours 1,924 x $20 = $38,480 gross income $38,480 x 11.2% national marginal income tax rate = $4,310 in national income tax $38,480 x 27.8% municipal income tax rate = $10,697 in municipal income tax $38,410 - $4,310 national tax - $10,697 municipal tax - $185 Social Security contribution = $23,288 take home pay $23,288 / 1,924 hours = $12.10 net pay per hour Do I even need to do the American side of this equation at this point? Even if an American McDonald's worker had ZERO TAX DOLLARS taken out of their paycheck, they would need to be making at least $12.10/hr to compare to their Danish counterpart... who also gets free universal healthcare and 5 weeks paid vacation each year. Please stop with this extremely dumb tax argument. Second, I don't see anywhere in the world where the minimum wage is over $14. The US is the 12th highest out of around 200 countries in the world. Not to mention that the states have the option to raise the minimum wage to their liking. According to the link, there are 29 states that have raised their minimum wages. That's what's good about the United States, it's a free country and you can move as you please. Minimum Wage By Country 2021 (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/minimum-wage-by-country) The total tax wedge is higher than you're portraying here. Actually, the average monthly disposable salary looks to be around equal at approx. $3200/mo. However, the cost of living of most things is much much higher. According to the link, basic utilities cost 49% more, clothing 77% more, real estate 14% more, rent 19% more, and a new car costs over twice as much. Cost of living Stats: Denmark vs US (https://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Denmark/United-States/Cost-of-living) And Third, your numbers are misleading and you're only taking into account the low end of the tax bracket. If you click and sort by tax rate, Denmark has an effective total top tax rate of 60% that kicks in at low $54.9 (https://money.cnn.com/interactive/pf/taxes/top-income-tax-rate/?iid=EL) So what about higher earners? You want me to pay 60% taxes? Fuck that shit, I pay enough. You people want to spend corporations money through higher wages and taxes. You people want to spend my money through higher cost of living and taxes. You people want to spend the governments money through subsidy hand outs and social programs. Why don't you do this. Worry about your money and spending. As I said, if people want to relocate to a different state for higher paying wages, it's a free country. Better yet, since it's such a liberal utopian paradise, you guys can move to Denmark. Hey, Spider you need me to help you pack. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: masterfins on May 13, 2021, 08:19:26 pm And Third, your numbers are misleading and you're only taking into account the low end of the tax bracket. Of course they are, it's Spider, he's the KING of cherry picking stats/comments/etc. Practically every post he makes takes a minuscule item and blows it up like it's the only thing. lol Occasionally he makes some good points and I agree with him, but when the facts are against him he ignores them and brings up some tangental item on the extreme end of the spectrum and makes it sound like that's the real truth. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 13, 2021, 09:24:55 pm First of all, minimum wage in Denmark - None, it's negotiated between unions and employer associations; the average minimum wage for all private and public sector collective bargaining agreements was approximately DKK 110 (nominally $16) per hour, exclusive of pension benefits. If your point is that we should replace minimum wage laws with nationwide unions (like Denmark has), you have my support.Quote Second, I don't see anywhere in the world where the minimum wage is over $14. The US is the 12th highest out of around 200 countries in the world. Not to mention that the states have the option to raise the minimum wage to their liking. According to the link, there are 29 states that have raised their minimum wages. That's what's good about the United States, it's a free country and you can move as you please. This has nothing to do with Denmark's income tax rate vs. the US. Furthermore, the fact that the richest country in the world has only the 12th-highest minimum wage says more than I need to. Why is is the UK's minimum wage higher than the US? Canada? Germany? Quote The total tax wedge is higher than you're portraying here. Actually, the average monthly disposable salary looks to be around equal at approx. $3200/mo. However, the cost of living of most things is much much higher. According to the link, basic utilities cost 49% more, clothing 77% more, real estate 14% more, rent 19% more, and a new car costs over twice as much. Your reference relies on data from Numbeo.com, a website that uses self-reported internet surveys with "over 100 contributions." I leave it to the reader to judge the validity of such surveys.Quote And Third, your numbers are misleading and you're only taking into account the low end of the tax bracket. If you click and sort by tax rate, Denmark has an effective total top tax rate of 60% that kicks in at low $54.9 (https://money.cnn.com/interactive/pf/taxes/top-income-tax-rate/?iid=EL) Like I just said, you don't know how marginal tax rates work.First things first: as I just showed, $20/hr works out to a yearly salary of $38,480, which is less than $54,900, making your citation worthless. Second, even if you made $55,000 even, your tax rate is not 60% of $55,000, because that's not how marginal tax rates work! I'll explain this using US federal income tax rates from 1992 (https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal.pdf) for simplicity: If your income was $21,450 or less, your federal income tax rate was 15%. If your income was between $21,451 and $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 28%. If your income was over $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 31%. This DOES NOT mean that if you had earned $51,800 through 12/30/92, and you earned $150 on the last day of the year (putting your yearly income at $51,950), you owe 31% tax on your entire income. The way that marginal income tax is calculated is that you owe 15% on all income up to $21,450, and then 28% tax on all income between $21,451-$51,900, and then 31% tax on all income over $51,900. So if you made $51,950 in 1992, your tax breakdown would be: 15% of $21,450 = $3217.50 28% of $30,450 (your income between $21,450 and $51,900) = $8526 31% of $50 (your income above $51,900) = $15.50 Total tax bill = $11,759 Notice that even though you made enough money to be placed in the 31% tax bracket, your ACTUAL tax rate for the year is $11,759 / $51,950 = 22.6%. That's LESS than the middle tax bracket that you made too much money to qualify for! Weird, huh? Relatedly, this is why conservative horror stories about "I didn't want to make too much money because I would get taxed in a higher bracket" are always BS nonsense. They are urban legends from people who don't understand how marginal tax rates work. Quote As I said, if people want to relocate to a different state for higher paying wages, it's a free country. Better yet, since it's such a liberal utopian paradise, you guys can move to Denmark. Hey, Spider you need me to help you pack. This thread was created solely for conservatives to complain about "Biden's America." So I humbly suggest you take your own advice and move to... Singapore? Taiwan? I honestly can't even think of a place that actually exists that meets the ridiculous standard conservatives insist on. Certainly not America!Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: dolphins4life on May 14, 2021, 12:01:41 am If your point is that we should replace minimum wage laws with nationwide unions (like Denmark has), you have my support. We have the highest debt of any country. How can we be the richest country? This has nothing to do with Denmark's income tax rate vs. the US. Furthermore, the fact that the richest country in the world has only the 12th-highest minimum wage says more than I need to. Why is is the UK's minimum wage higher than the US? Canada? Germany? Your reference relies on data from Numbeo.com, a website that uses self-reported internet surveys with "over 100 contributions." I leave it to the reader to judge the validity of such surveys. Like I just said, you don't know how marginal tax rates work. First things first: as I just showed, $20/hr works out to a yearly salary of $38,480, which is less than $54,900, making your citation worthless. Second, even if you made $55,000 even, your tax rate is not 60% of $55,000, because that's not how marginal tax rates work! I'll explain this using US federal income tax rates from 1992 (https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal.pdf) for simplicity: If your income was $21,450 or less, your federal income tax rate was 15%. If your income was between $21,451 and $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 28%. If your income was over $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 31%. This DOES NOT mean that if you had earned $51,800 through 12/30/92, and you earned $150 on the last day of the year (putting your yearly income at $51,950), you owe 31% tax on your entire income. The way that marginal income tax is calculated is that you owe 15% on all income up to $21,450, and then 28% tax on all income between $21,451-$51,900, and then 31% tax on all income over $51,900. So if you made $51,950 in 1992, your tax breakdown would be: 15% of $21,450 = $3217.50 28% of $30,450 (your income between $21,450 and $51,900) = $8526 31% of $50 (your income above $51,900) = $15.50 Total tax bill = $11,759 Notice that even though you made enough money to be placed in the 31% tax bracket, your ACTUAL tax rate for the year is $11,759 / $51,950 = 22.6%. That's LESS than the middle tax bracket that you made too much money to qualify for! Weird, huh? Relatedly, this is why conservative horror stories about "I didn't want to make too much money because I would get taxed in a higher bracket" are always BS nonsense. They are urban legends from people who don't understand how marginal tax rates work. This thread was created solely for conservatives to complain about "Biden's America." So I humbly suggest you take your own advice and move to... Singapore? Taiwan? I honestly can't even think of a place that actually exists that meets the ridiculous standard conservatives insist on. Certainly not America! Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on May 14, 2021, 07:53:23 am We have the highest debt of any country. How can we be the richest country? It's really simple. Just print more money. History has shown what that does, but the leftists don't seem to care. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Dave Gray on May 14, 2021, 08:11:42 am Florida is a desirable place to live for many reasons but lower taxes and the fact our state was open when others weren't are a huge driving point. Both of which are republican ideals. I think that "state being open" is exactly 0% of the influx of move. Taxes, for sure. I love no State income tax. I don't really think it's fair to call that a Republican ideal. Right now, I don't think they have a platform of lower taxes (or any platform that isn't culture-based). But even if they did, Florida's lack of State income tax has to do with how we collect money. We still get taxes, just from other areas. ...hotel bed taxes and all that and sales taxes. We tax industries instead of people. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: pondwater on May 14, 2021, 10:51:01 am Of course they are, it's Spider, he's the KING of cherry picking stats/comments/etc. Practically every post he makes takes a minuscule item and blows it up like it's the only thing. lol Occasionally he makes some good points and I agree with him, but when the facts are against him he ignores them and brings up some tangental item on the extreme end of the spectrum and makes it sound like that's the real truth. Hell, Spider wants to argue and debate someone and then when he's losing he complains about their "proper use of terminology" and literal definitions of words in the dictionary. How the fuck can you not laugh at people who can't or won't use proper terminology or the literal definition of words in the dictionary while trying to push their hardcore liberal agendas. It's kind of sad actually.Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: pondwater on May 14, 2021, 10:51:21 am If your point is that we should replace minimum wage laws with nationwide unions (like Denmark has), you have my support. None of that nonsense you wasted your time typing means anything. You're just cherry picking, spinning, and deflecting. This has nothing to do with Denmark's income tax rate vs. the US. Furthermore, the fact that the richest country in the world has only the 12th-highest minimum wage says more than I need to. Why is is the UK's minimum wage higher than the US? Canada? Germany? Your reference relies on data from Numbeo.com, a website that uses self-reported internet surveys with "over 100 contributions." I leave it to the reader to judge the validity of such surveys. Like I just said, you don't know how marginal tax rates work. First things first: as I just showed, $20/hr works out to a yearly salary of $38,480, which is less than $54,900, making your citation worthless. Second, even if you made $55,000 even, your tax rate is not 60% of $55,000, because that's not how marginal tax rates work! I'll explain this using US federal income tax rates from 1992 (https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal.pdf) for simplicity: If your income was $21,450 or less, your federal income tax rate was 15%. If your income was between $21,451 and $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 28%. If your income was over $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 31%. This DOES NOT mean that if you had earned $51,800 through 12/30/92, and you earned $150 on the last day of the year (putting your yearly income at $51,950), you owe 31% tax on your entire income. The way that marginal income tax is calculated is that you owe 15% on all income up to $21,450, and then 28% tax on all income between $21,451-$51,900, and then 31% tax on all income over $51,900. So if you made $51,950 in 1992, your tax breakdown would be: 15% of $21,450 = $3217.50 28% of $30,450 (your income between $21,450 and $51,900) = $8526 31% of $50 (your income above $51,900) = $15.50 Total tax bill = $11,759 Notice that even though you made enough money to be placed in the 31% tax bracket, your ACTUAL tax rate for the year is $11,759 / $51,950 = 22.6%. That's LESS than the middle tax bracket that you made too much money to qualify for! Weird, huh? Relatedly, this is why conservative horror stories about "I didn't want to make too much money because I would get taxed in a higher bracket" are always BS nonsense. They are urban legends from people who don't understand how marginal tax rates work. This thread was created solely for conservatives to complain about "Biden's America." So I humbly suggest you take your own advice and move to... Singapore? Taiwan? I honestly can't even think of a place that actually exists that meets the ridiculous standard conservatives insist on. Certainly not America! The fact is that Denmark has one of the highest income tax for single people in the world (https://www.investopedia.com/taxes/countries-highest-income-taxes/) at 4th highest on the list. With the US coming in at 24th place. Another fact is that Denmark has one of the highest income tax for married people in the world (https://www.investopedia.com/taxes/countries-highest-income-taxes/#countries-with-the-highest-income-tax-for-married-people in the world) at 3rd highest on the list. With the US coming in at 25th place. And finally, Denmark is one of the most expensive places to live in the world at 5th highest on the list, as noted HERE (https://www.theceomagazine.com/lifestyle/travel-leisure/expensive-countries-2020/) and HERE (https://www.forbes.com/sites/ceciliarodriguez/2020/03/02/the-most-expensive-countries-to-live-in-2020-europeans-at-the-top-with-switzerland-first/?sh=665e56816dc1). With the US coming in at around the 20th spot. You can't change facts Spider. Denmark has some of the highest taxes and cost of living on the entire planet. They are top five in all of three categories. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on May 14, 2021, 11:36:58 am I think that "state being open" is exactly 0% of the influx of move. I couldn’t disagree more. If you don’t think silly liberal things like keeping businesses closed, banning straws, or even making large soft drinks illegal and raising taxes on everything you possibly can is the cause then you aren’t looking. We don’t have higher taxes because we don’t tax silly things and give it away to illegals and others. Hell ... even Disney is looking to move their corporate offices to Orlando because of the closed for business rules they have endured. Don’t forget they even dropped off the Covid council in California over their frustrations with the overbearing lock downs. Taxes, for sure. I love no State income tax. I don't really think it's fair to call that a Republican ideal. Right now, I don't think they have a platform of lower taxes (or any platform that isn't culture-based). But even if they did, Florida's lack of State income tax has to do with how we collect money. We still get taxes, just from other areas. ...hotel bed taxes and all that and sales taxes. We tax industries instead of people. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 14, 2021, 05:01:27 pm The fact is that Denmark has one of the highest income tax for single people in the world (https://www.investopedia.com/taxes/countries-highest-income-taxes/) at 4th highest on the list. With the US coming in at 24th place. You're talking about generalized tax rates; I'm taking about the exact amount of tax a person specifically making $20/hour would pay. You claimed it would not be an increase in take home pay over what they would be taking home in the US, but that's clearly false.Another fact is that Denmark has one of the highest income tax for married people in the world (https://www.investopedia.com/taxes/countries-highest-income-taxes/#countries-with-the-highest-income-tax-for-married-people in the world) at 3rd highest on the list. With the US coming in at 25th place. Let's not forget why we're taking about Denmark in the first place: you guys insist that fast food work is inherently undeserving of a decent wage, but other countries manage to do it. When you offer people a decent wage, people will take (and keep!) the jobs... which is the point of this thread. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: masterfins on May 14, 2021, 09:33:14 pm I'll explain this using US federal income tax rates from 1992 (https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal.pdf) for simplicity: If your income was $21,450 or less, your federal income tax rate was 15%. If your income was between $21,451 and $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 28%. If your income was over $51,900, your federal income tax rate was 31%. This DOES NOT mean that if you had earned $51,800 through 12/30/92, and you earned $150 on the last day of the year (putting your yearly income at $51,950), you owe 31% tax on your entire income. The way that marginal income tax is calculated is that you owe 15% on all income up to $21,450, and then 28% tax on all income between $21,451-$51,900, and then 31% tax on all income over $51,900. So if you made $51,950 in 1992, your tax breakdown would be: 15% of $21,450 = $3217.50 28% of $30,450 (your income between $21,450 and $51,900) = $8526 31% of $50 (your income above $51,900) = $15.50 Total tax bill = $11,759 Notice that even though you made enough money to be placed in the 31% tax bracket, your ACTUAL tax rate for the year is $11,759 / $51,950 = 22.6%. That's LESS than the middle tax bracket that you made too much money to qualify for! Weird, huh? Relatedly, this is why conservative horror stories about "I didn't want to make too much money because I would get taxed in a higher bracket" are always BS nonsense. They are urban legends from people who don't understand how marginal tax rates work. Spider, good explanation about how the effective tax rate is calculated. I don't know why you would use rates from 1992, but I would also add the following: The tax calculation for 1992, in your example, would have been after deducting Personal exemptions (which were eliminated by Trump) and after deducting the Standard Deduction (which Trump basically doubled) or taking Itemized Deductions (which under Trump most people can't use anymore because of the doubled standard deduction and the $10K cap on the deductibility of taxes as an itemized deduction). Therefore, the amount actually earned by the person in 1992 was probably about $8,000 higher than the $51,950. Under the 2020 tax rates the same person with taxable income of $51,950, would only pay $7,219 in Federal income taxes, quite a savings for a middle income wage earner, versus the $11,759 they paid in 1992. Using your 1992 example and regarding the part of your comment I put in bold, I would just add that once you reach the 31% tax bracket, and perhaps add in another 6% of State Income Taxes (depending on where you live), all the taxable income over that $51,900 figure would be taxed at 36% for income taxes. So people that actually understand marginal tax rates may say "hey I'm not going to kill myself putting in overtime if the government is going to take 43.65 % of it (factoring in SS & Medicare taxes of 7.65%). And if your a self-employed individual that is required to pay the employer matching SS & Medicare taxes of another 7.65%, that equates to paying 51.3% in taxes on your income over $51,900.00. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: pondwater on May 14, 2021, 11:32:15 pm You're talking about generalized tax rates; I'm taking about the exact amount of tax a person specifically making $20/hour would pay. You claimed it would not be an increase in take home pay over what they would be taking home in the US, but that's clearly false. Ok, if you say so. But I think we all know the truth, some you people just aren't adult enough to admit it. It's like dealing with children around here, LMFAO....Let's not forget why we're taking about Denmark in the first place: you guys insist that fast food work is inherently undeserving of a decent wage, but other countries manage to do it. When you offer people a decent wage, people will take (and keep!) the jobs... which is the point of this thread. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Spider-Dan on May 15, 2021, 10:04:06 pm I used the rates from 1992 because it was easy to show the calculation for an income that hit the top bracket. 1992 was the last time we only had 3 brackets.
So people that actually understand marginal tax rates may say "hey I'm not going to kill myself putting in overtime if the government is going to take 43.65 % of it (factoring in SS & Medicare taxes of 7.65%). That's a different problem that people also don't understand: no matter how much of your overtime your employer withholds, if that OT does not actually push your total yearly income into [the tax bracket you're citing], you're going to get that money back at tax time anyway.There is no functional tax difference between extremely consistent OT and a raise. So unless you would also think "I don't want this raise because the government is going to get too much of it," it does not make sense to turn down extra income based on income tax liability. Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: CF DolFan on June 04, 2021, 01:12:14 pm Unemployment is still high even though most of the country is actively looking for workers. Biden is cancelling the $300 in September but still doesn't admit the lower end of the country is perfectly content to suck of the teat of the rest of us. I'd also argue that those same people have no desire to improve their status in life. Thank God for Republican governors.
Gotta love the current status of our country - give out free money and people continue to choose not to work - defund the police and crime skyrockets - destroy the idea of family and God while we watch as our youth destroy our society - masculinity is toxic - we treat our enemies like they are the step child we are trying to win over and will even cover up their crimes against us to pretend we are all kosher It seems like common sense to me to know these things are inherently wrong but apparently I'm just a freaking genius. Biden insists the US economy is the fastest growing in the world and says $300-a-week unemployment will end in September after jobs report fell short of expectations AGAIN The jobs report released Friday showed unemployment dropped to 5.8% President Joe Biden said it represented 'historic progress' But the rise in jobs missed again after a disappointing growth in April Republican governors in 24 states have now stopped Biden's $300 payments https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9652227/US-jobs-grow-slower-expected-559-000-added-compared-expected-670-000.html Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Tenshot13 on June 04, 2021, 02:18:37 pm We can't hire anyone for our business. We desperately need workers and even upped the pay to start...crickets.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on June 04, 2021, 07:22:22 pm We can't hire anyone for our business. We desperately need workers and even upped the pay to start...crickets. What business are you in? Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Tenshot13 on June 04, 2021, 07:26:32 pm What business are you in? It's a pretty niche business so I'll just say utilities Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: Phishfan on June 04, 2021, 07:54:47 pm I'm in garbage. We were having a hard time but I am starting to see more applicants.
Title: Re: It pays not to work in Biden's America Post by: ArtieChokePhin on June 04, 2021, 08:13:54 pm It's a pretty niche business so I'll just say utilities As you know, I'm in HVAC. Thank heaven I didn't have to furlough anyone or lay anyone off. Fortunately for me, business has picked back up with the summer coming on. |