The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I just saw a recent YouTube video that said the governor would not have any lockdowns despite 6500 new cases a day.   Are these just mild cases?   Are they positive tests?   Is the healthcare system overworked?  I do not see any lockdown needs unless the healthcare system is overworked

In FL, we need mask mandates in schools, first and foremost.

That's crazy to me.

Other than that, I think lockdowns probably don't make sense.  Mask mandates in public, inside places, I would prefer, but if that's not a thing, I can at least personally limit my interactions, socially distance, and get the vaccine myself.  I'm not going to die on that hill.  I can protect myself and my children with personal choice there.  It's really schools that I'm adamant about.  No vaccine is available and I can't protect my children.

For kids under 12, there's nowhere to go -- there's a full room of unvaccinated people all sitting together.  It's unsafe.


1) Masking and distancing in school.
2) Once there's full and comprehensive FDA approval, mandate the vaccine for school like all the other vaccines we already mandate.
3) Businesses need to start mandating it or at least make working without it inconvenient.
4) Require vaccine for travel and things like that.

This shit is crazy that we're letting it go on this long.

Given that there is still no approved vaccine for kids under 12, a mandate for child vaccination is a LONG way out.

I would say we'll need to see a lot more kids dying before any changes are made, but the last year has shown that we're dealing with a death cult and more deaths won't change a thing.  So it is what it is.

I expect this.  Probably next school year.

The CDC statement that masks are unnecessary in for the vaccinated has been abused.  If you are getting together with friends you trust to tell the truth you can have an unmasked get together.  That is it.

1. Certainly masks are still needed in close groups where virtually all of the population is unvaccinated.  Schools

2. Mask mandates must remain in place in public locations  unless there is verification that the person is vaccinated, by presenting the vax card.  E.g a store can either have someone checking at the door or just require everyone regardless of status.

I hate the logic people are using.

1. The vaccine doesn't prevent a person from contracting or spreading the virus.

2. A mask doesn't help the person wearing as much as it is to help prevent the person from spreading it.

Therefore either everyone wears a mask or no one. A vaccine means nothing in relation to masking.

#2 is absolutely correct.  However, while the vax is not 100% effective at stopping contractions or spreading the disease it is very effective.  A vaccinated person even if sick is unlikely to be sick enough to pass on the disease. 

Unless everyone is vaccinated.  Which we as a country will never get to that point.

I need a fact check on this.

I could swear that:

1) the vaccine REDUCES (but doesn't eliminate) catching the virus.
2) the vaccines REDUCES (but doesn't eliminate) the viral load that would then spread the virus.
3) the vaccine ELIMINATES (within 1% margin or error or something like that) serious illness (death).


Also:

Wearing a cloth mask:
1) SLIGHTLY REDUCES catching the virus.
2) GREATLY REDUCES spreading the virus.



If this is incorrect, please provide information as to the truth.

Bullshit. The level of an individual's personal symptoms has nothing to do with their ability to pass along a virus. People without an outbreak can pass Herpes. How many "healthy" people passed HIV? Being vaccinated at the current time means dick all about who should and should not wear a mask.

I will throw in that this particular virus has been spread by people who were not sick enough to experience symptoms.

So, nothing you typed says a vaccine prevents transmission. I won't argue it may lessen but I guarantee it doesn't prevent. I can't give any fact check at this point because there really isn't 3 fact check. You can't prove a negative and it is still very early into this no matter how long it feels to you. Remember,  the same people talking about how vaccinated people can return to normal are the same ones that lied about not needing masks initially. They are saying whatever they need to in order to steer people in the direction they need.

For me the pandemic is OVER. 

I am vaccinated.

 I can catch it.  If I catch it, I might feel like crap for a few days, but I won’t die and I won’t go to the hospital.  Almost every year I catch something that makes me feel like crap for a few days.

I might spread it.  Very small chance I could spread it to someone vaccinated.  They won’t die.  They might feel like crap for a few days.

I might spread it to unvaccinated adult. They might die.  I don’t give a FUCK.  Get the vaccine. 

The ONLY people at this point I have any concern for are those under 12. 

My youngest niece is 13.  Everyone I personally care about is vaccinated.

 In the rare situations I am indoors near a group of children I put my mask on, because I do care about the children in general.

 But I don’t give a shit about unvaccinated adults.  Prior covid spikes concerned me, this one isn’t people dying from covid, it is people dying from stupidity.

This was NOT my attitude when I first got vaccinated.  I got lucky and vaccinated early on when many others who wanted the vaccine were still waiting for a shot.  I was very cognizant of protecting them.  But now you can walk into almost every pharmacy without an appointment and get a shot in 15 minutes for free.  If you are over 12 and not vaccinated, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Just so we're not parsing words:

If you get the vaccine, there's a reduced chance that you get COVID or spread COVID, but it's still possible.  It's helping prevent the spread, but not eliminating it 100%.

You are missing the point.

The point is not that vaccinated people "cannot transmit the disease." The point is that if everyone is vaccinated, WE NO LONGER CARE ABOUT TRANSMISSION because for vaccinated people, COVID is actually LESS dangerous than the flu.

Let me repeat for emphasis: the only reason we need to care about COVID transmission is because there are unvaccinated people.  

I'm surprised to see you peddling this nonsense.  You certainly know the difference between:

a) YOU, the layman, don't need a surgical mask because we expect a nationwide mask shortage and all available surgical masks need to go to healthcare providers

and

b) Surgical masks, which have been used by medical professionals for decades, don't actually do anything to stop COVID... but also, please wear cloth masks of your own making, because those DO help

This "They told us we don't need masks!" BS is the most transparently bad-faith argument.  It's incredibly (and willfully) stupid.

One of the guys on my softball team  is in medicinal sales ... specifically vaccines. He hasn't been vaccinated and said no f'ing way will he be right now.   

So for reasons, I am trying to find out more information on how COVID delta effects pregnant women who are vaccinated.  All I can find are about unvaccinated pregnant women in the ICU.  Does anyone have any information on this? 

I wouldn’t sweat it.  The sample size of people who are vaccinated and are adversely affected by Covid is extremely small. The sample size of vaccinated women who become infected with Covid including the delta variant is probably so small that absolutely no conclusion can be drawn.

CF, are you vaccinated?

Also, some guy you play softball with that isn't a virologist isn't qualified to have an opinion on the safety of vaccines.  Jesus Christ, people.  We have scientists who study viruses their entire lives that we depend on to inform us on the safety and efficacy of these vaccines.

...not some salesman.

No I'm not. I'm going off the original inventor of the mRNA vaccine (and DNA vaccine) core platform technology currently used to create the vaccine.  Dr Robert W Malone said if you have had Covid then there is no reason to get the vaccine. He said having Covid would make you less likely than a vaccine to get it again. DR. Malone also questions why they never discuss all the negatives. He says  "Why is it necessary to suppress discussion and full disclosure of information concerning mRNA reactogenicity and safety risks?"

I have reason to believe I know of 4 people who have died from the vaccine but zero from Covid. They want me to take a vaccine they can't guarantee won't kill me but they accept no responsibility if it does. That isn't good enough for me.

With all that said I would still take the advice of a medical salesperson who is in the know about vaccines and what has been happening to anyone on a message board.

Every time you say something like "I know people who..." or "I know a bunch of Democrats that..." I reflexively do one of those "cough-BULLSHIT-cough."

Never any support to back it up...just a random "I know people, so take this seriously, dammit..." approach. No wonder you like Trump so much...he got elected by making shit up on a daily basis.

Why would you get the vaccine if you had COVID already?  The point of the vaccine is to give you antibodies, you already have those if you had COVID.

The antibodies that you receive from having COVID are not nearly as good as the antibodies you get from the vaccines.  (You can see this from the severity of breakthrough cases among COVID survivors vs. the vaccinated.)

This is because the vaccines are designed to train your immune system how to fight COVID, whereas your unassisted natural immune system just focuses on killing the immediate threat (as opposed to preparing to stop future similar threats).

I got the J&J shot a couple months back, but say I'm an unvaccinated person that got COVID.  I recover, do you think it would be wise to wait a few months before getting vaccinated, or should it be right away? 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

People with COVID-19 who have symptoms should wait to be vaccinated until they have recovered from their illness and have met the criteria for discontinuing isolation; those without symptoms should also wait until they meet the criteria before getting vaccinated. This guidance also applies to people who get COVID-19 before getting their second dose of vaccine.

So basically, as soon as you recover, you have the green light (provided that you were not treated for COVID-19 with monoclonal antibodies or convalescent plasma, in which case you should wait 90 days).

And here we go:

Florida Hospital Admissions Break Covid Record Set in January (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-07-28/florida-hospital-admissions-break-covid-record-set-in-january)

The highly contagious delta variant is proving a dangerous mix with Florida’s bustling tourism industry -- especially for young adults.

Average daily hospital admissions among 18-39 year olds in Florida have jumped about 150% in the past two weeks to a record-shattering rate, which is exceeded nationally only by a young-adults’ surge in New Mexico last year, according to data from the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services. Total single-day admissions with confirmed Covid -- 1,288 on Saturday -- surpassed the previous Florida peak in January, even as older state residents fare better.

In a sign of delta’s infectiousness, the hospital surge has unfolded about three times faster than the previous one, which crested six months ago.

(https://media1.fdncms.com/orlando/imager/u/original/29627938/studio_project_1_.jpeg)

Ride that train all the way to the bottom.

I read a study today (granted, it's just one study) that Delta is showing similar amount of viral load in both vaccinated and unvaccinated carriers.

I don't know if that means you're less likely to contract if vaccinated, but that once you have it, your ability to spread it to another person is the same, whether vaxxed or not.

If this is true, that's bad.  But it's behind the CDC guidance for vaxxed people to wear masks again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTE4m4HqP3U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTE4m4HqP3U)    Even in this video, reading the comments, they are virtually , all negative, meaning that nobody believes it is serious.  Maybe my friend was right. 

It's serious but not deadly.  COVID kills less people than lung cancer or drunk driving crashes.  Turns out I've contracted the Delta variant.  What started out as a summer cold has turned into a mild fever with a lot of coughing up phlegm, blowing out snot, and I've been really tired.  Yesterday, I lost my senses of taste and smell.  But I'm breathing normally and I'm determined to survive this.

Over the last 18 months, COVID has killed over 600,000 Americans.
Over the previous 20 years, drunk driving killed 251,032 Americans.

COVID is FAR more deadly than drunk driving, and it's not even close.  Lung cancer is far more deadly than drunk driving, but still not as bad as COVID: in 2019, there were 139,603 lung cancer deaths in the US.

I wish you a speedy recovery.

Hey I hope you do survive honestly. Out of curiosity .. do you wear masks if/when you have to go out now that you know you have COVID?

I would hope that Artie ISN'T going out at all if he knows he has Covid.

I would hope he took advantage of the vaccine months ago and barring that,  follow the CDC guidelines that all unvaccinated persons must continue to wear a mask in public settings.  But we know he did neither of those and is proud of his irresponsible behavior and cavalier attitude regarding the pandemic.  I hold little expectation he would start acting responsible now. 

And now I won't be needing the vaccine because when I recover, I will be naturally vaccinated.   

Apparently healthcare workers are quitting because they don't want to deal with it because people are simply not following precautions anymore.  Infuriates me

Which part infuriates you: that the workers are quitting, or that people aren't following precautions?

I wrote to my school board today.  I've never done anything like that before.

I can't fathom that we wouldn't require masks in an indoor setting for a fully unvaccinated group in one of the largest COVID hotspot in the world.

It's unsafe for the community.  It's unsafe for kids.  Honestly, what the fuck?

Hahahaha

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/60353045.jpg)

That's absolutely not the data I keep seeing... especially outside of the US (go figure). Survivors and vaccinated are doing about the same. As a matter of fact they are trying to figure out now if survivors are protected for life or if it's just temporary. Of course they have no idea how long the vaccine works so basically they are just winging all of it and will change their minds in a month like they have been doing for the last year.



COVID-19 survivors may possess wide-ranging resistance to the disease
Woodruff Health Sciences Center | July 22, 2021

Recovered COVID-19 patients retain broad and effective longer-term immunity to the disease, suggests a recent Emory University study, which is the most comprehensive of its kind so far. The findings have implications for expanding understanding about human immune memory as well as future vaccine development for coronaviruses.

The longitudinal study, published recently on Cell Reports Medicine, looked at 254 patients with mostly mild to moderate symptoms of SARS-CoV-2 infection over a period for more than eight months (250 days) and found that their immune response to the virus remained durable and strong.

https://news.emory.edu/stories/2021/07/covid_survivors_resistance/index.html

I've said from the start that if you can't get COVID twice that there's a ceiling to how bad we can fuck this up.

If getting vaccinated or getting the disease offers general long-term immunity or eliminates hospital/death, then that's really good and I hope that it's true.  That would be huge towards herd immunity, which is the ultimate goal.  We need to deny the virus hosts to continue to mutate.

I'm not going anywhere until I feel better.   My wife has taken the kids to her parents for a few days while she gets herself set up in her classroom.  I'm monitoring my business from home and having food and groceries delivered to me and I Facetime with my kids constantly. 

When I feel better, I'll sanitize the house, then call everyone home.  And TBH, I think I've turned the corner on this. 

Is that your windmill?

What you just did there is basically the grown up version of "I know you are, but what am I?"

Unless you have some example of me doing my best CF impression and saying something like "I know a dozen hardcore Republicans, and they all wish Donald Trump would die in a freak weed-whacker accident."

Which...of course you don't.

I know more than a dozen who think like that.   Problem is, none of them have any balls.... literally.

Particularly being he knows the most improbable people…doctors and nurses who oppose masks and vaccines, African Americans who oppose civil rights, Native Americans who idolizes Dan Snyder, people who he describes as ultra-liberal who repeat to him Tucker Carlson’s talking points, etc.

The latter. 

i get that .. how hard is it to wear a mask in a store? or indoors? suck it up .. it doesn't hurt

My neighbors have voted straight Republican since Nicon.  In 2016 they voted 3rd party, 2020 they voted Biden, on January 7th switched party affiliation from Republican to Independent.  We have never discussed Trump’s gardening practices, but I doubt they would shed many tears if he died.

There are Republicans that don’t like Trump. Including Bush, Cheney, Romney….,

I wish we would go back in lockdown to see if we can help with all the droughts and bad stuff going on in the world

I don’t want to see lock downs. But I would like to see an OSHA mandate requiring proof of vaccination for mask removal indoors.  Stores can either require all customers to wear a mask or have someone check vax cards at door.

If a vaccinated person can catch and spread the disease,  which I  think is agreeable,  masks for no one or everyone.

The link you cited says absolutely nothing about the COVID resistance of survivors compared to the vaccinated!  You're grasping for any straw you can to try to avoid the obvious conclusion that vaccines are the single most important thing one can do to stop COVID. Period, point blank.

It has been known that it's possible to catch COVID more than once for over a year (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/10/12/covid-reinfection-virus-can-strike-twice-worse-second-time-nevada-man/5965917002/).  And that was before the Delta variant.

The first case in the US was a man in Reno who was infected twice, two months apart:

The Nevada man, considered an essential worker, started feeling ill in late March, with a sore throat, cough, headache, nausea and diarrhea. His workplace had been hit with an outbreak early in the pandemic before safety measures like masks could be put in place, said Heather Kerwin, senior epidemiologist at the Washoe County Health District and a co-author on the paper.

He went for testing on April 18 and his infection with the coronavirus was confirmed.

On April 27, he reported his symptoms had all resolved and he felt fine, but at the time, employees were required to test negative for the coronavirus twice before they would be allowed back to work, Kerwin said. So he remained isolated at home.

A month later, he began feeling poorly again. At the same time, there was an outbreak where one of his parents, also an essential worker, was employed, Kerwin said.

On May 31, he went to an urgent care center, reporting fever, headache, dizziness, cough, nausea and diarrhea. On June 5, he went to see a doctor who found his oxygen levels dangerously low and had him hospitalized. Again, the man tested positive for the virus, even though he still had antibodies to the virus in his bloodstream, Kerwin said.

Genetic differences between the viruses responsible for each of his infections suggested he was infected two separate times. The virus doesn't mutate quickly enough within a single person to explain the differences between the two infections, the researchers found.

---

The idea that surviving COVID makes you as good as vaccinated is pure fantasy.  It's wishcasting from the same crowd who insists that they don't care about catching COVID until the day they catch it, then insist it's not a big deal until they are on a ventilator, and if they recover, insist that they've already done everything that needs to be done.  The common thread?  A combination of laziness and obstinacy that always means, "I do whatever the hell I want at every stage of the process, and if anyone else is put at risk because of my choices, screw them."

If everyone were vaccinated, we wouldn't need to care about spreading the disease and masks would be unnecessary.

It would be nothing more than the flu, bro.

It is possible for a vaccinated person to catch and spread the disease.  But it is extremely rare for that to happen.  Less than 0.001 % of all vaccinated people have had a breakthrough infection.  OTOH, it is extremely common for unvaccinated people (even those who have previously had the disease) to catch and spread it.

Masks for vaccinated or masks for no one is the equivalent as saying if car are required to have airbags than electric wheelchair need them too.  Either all motor vehicles or none. 

Mandate masks for the unvaccinated.  And ban the unvaccinated from restaurants, bars and other places that require mask removal. 

This is pointless as long as we are using the honor system to determine who should and shouldn't be wearing a mask.

No honor system.  Show the card or wear the mask.

I got vaccinated back in May.  I actually had quite an inner debate about it.  I very briefly had some concerns about not liking being pressured to do it.  But then as my wife who is in healthcare and was actually on the COVID Emergency Response Team for multiple hospitals last year reminded me, when I was a kid, there were certain shots that I had to get before I was allowed in school.  That made me look at it in a different light.

A lot of times my first reaction to things is at an emotional level (too much testosterone, LOL), but ultimately I do consider myself a man of science.  So after giving it quite a bit of thought, including my lack of comfort at how fast the vaccine was made available when most medications are studied for years before being made available to the public, I decided that in spite of whatever concerns I had about the vaccine, the potential benefit of getting it outweighed my concerns about getting it. 

That was just my personal processing of it, and I'm not saying whether anyone should or should not get the vaccine.  Especially since I did have some concerns about it myself.  But I am leaning towards accepting the idea of people having to wear a mask, etc. if they don't have proof of vaccination.  Last week one of my best friends from high school through my 20's is in the hospital with COVID.  He objected to the vaccine because of religious reasons, personal freedom, etc.  Pretty sure he does whatever his pastor tells him to do which is a big part of why we have drifted apart.  Anyway, it was his choice to not get vaccinated, but because he chose not to, I don't feel particularly bad for him.  It doesn't help that he allowed himself to get obese, has diabetes, doesn't exercise, etc. 

This is exactly how I felt about the Vaccine.  I still don't like how quickly everything came out and how much it was pressured, it seemed suspicious to me.  But the pros far outweigh the cons, and I'm glad I got the shot.

I too am extremely suspicious of the pace of vaccines development.  I would bet my life savings that Trump was applying inappropriate pressure on Stephen Hahn to approve vaccines before they were ready.   Whether Hahn resisted this pressure and in fact waited until they were ready, or released them prematurely, I do not know.  But I strongly suspect it was the latter.

We don’t know the long term side effects of the vaccine.  Just like we don’t know the long term side effects of Covid. 

But we do know that Covid is deadly in the short term.  We do know that those who recover often have the type of medical conditions that lead to serious lifetime health problems.

We know complications from the covid vaccine is extremely rare.

I have zero confidence in Trump, Hahn, Blix, and Pence to put the health of the American people ahead of the political desire of Trump to get a vaccine and have the disease “just disappear like a miracle “ My faith in those in charge at the time of its development is nonexistent. 

The vaccine might not be safe.  It is just 1000 times safer than not being vaccinated.  The vaccine is not perfect, but it is better than not being vaccinated.

With the available data refusing to get the vaccine because you don’t trust Trump is just paranoia.  And I say that with absolute certainty that this vaccine development at times ignored sound medical and scientific principles for political expedience.  However, if you trust Trump but are refusing the vaccine because you don’t trust Hillary, Obama and Bill Gates then you aren’t just paranoid you are psychotic and delusional.

From what i read, the underlying technology of the mRNA vaccines has been in development for 20+ years. The first study published in 1990. The reason it hasn't progressed further with regards to the common cold or the flu is all because of cost. Why would a company put (b|m)illions into a vaccine technology that won't make them money. It's not like vaccines are a high ticket item. Ignore the anti-vaxxers that think that "big pharma" is pushing vaccinations. They just don't make that much money to justify development.

So of course as a result the mRNA vaccine technology was being explored with an eye towards having the body identify and fight cancer cells. I don't need to tell you how expensive cancer medications are. There's a ton of profit to be had there.

This isn't the case of "the vaccine was developed in record time" .. it was more of a case of having the underlying technology available for decades, and finding a use that negated the development cost. And as far as how long drug trials normally take, 80% of drug trial times are spent waiting for bureaucracy not actually testing vaccines. What happens when you eliminate bureaucratic waiting? You get a vaccine quickly.

Even discounting those that refuse to vaccinate, it is impossible that everyone could be vaccinated.

If they're allergic to the vaccine or components of the vaccine, they can take an alternate vaccine, there's about a dozen different covid vaccines all with different ingredients.

If they have a religious exemption to the vaccine, they can go fuck themselves, fairy tales don't mean shit to a virus.

If you have a personal issue with vaccinations, you can go fuck yourself as well. You live in a society that has rules. You aren't allowed to dump toxic chemicals in a river, why are you allowed to dump viruses into the air.

If they're immunocompromised and a vaccine won't allow them to build immunity, then they need to rely on herd immunity. This also applies to those who are too young to take the vaccine. And these people are the only ones who have a legitimate claim to not being able get vaccinated.

You mad bro? LMFAO, please further explain these actual rules in place that society has regarding Covid.

i'm not mad, i'm just disappointed that people are selfish and stupid.

That.001 looks pulled out of your ass because a report from the 30th  says .08 which they say is likely higher because 9 states didn't report information and it doesn't account for untested people, which they could never get data on.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/breakthrough-covid-cases-least-125-000-fully-vaccinated-americans-have-n1275500

so the vaccines are 99.92% effective at preventing breakthrough infections ? That's incredibly great !!!
even if that .08 is .18 .. that's 99.82% prevention of symptomatic illness from a vaccine ? .. i'll take that any day and twice on sunday

No, I got it off the CDC website, but on careful reflection I was quoting the incidence of fetality not infection.  But even going .08 that is 8 out of 10,000.  Which is low enough for me.

Most people are selfish and stupid.

As i said, it's likely a higher rate of infection.

But you can't even trust those numbers as I  outlined, 9 states reported no information,  several more gave partial information and there is going to be even less account of asymptomatic infections because how many vaccinated people that feel fine are getting tested? Basically the point is no one knows the numbers so trying to give statistics is pointless. Masks for everyone or no one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtEk8TOl7bU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtEk8TOl7bU)   Every single comment on this video is expressing skepticism, and/or accusing CBS of outright mistruthing. 

I have a feeling about the nature of the "research" being performed by the armchair experts in YouTube comment sections:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E20-K2ZX0AQNUfd?format=jpg&name=small)

I am willing to listen to what either of those ladies have to say.  And what I mean by that is I'd be happy to smash.  With their consent of course.  I'm no politician.   ;D

My video had nothing do with vaccines.  It was about numbers.  People thin the media is not being honest about the numbers.     

The moment I see someone trying to talk serious about something...and they post a youtube video, I laugh and think "what a maroon!"

It wasn't even the YouTube video.  It was the comments under a YouTube video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0UHp3MLu7U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0UHp3MLu7U)  Great by DeSantis here.  Biden opening our borders has been a disaster.       

Arkansas IS having a crisis.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrNIFZ-TlJw&t=363s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrNIFZ-TlJw&t=363s)

You understand that neither Florida or Arkansas shares a border with any country right?

It's almost like if immigrants were to blame you'd see a surge in california and new mexico and all along the canadian border. I guess Montana's just a liberal state covering up for Biden.

YouTube links...What a Maroon.

UPDATE

The coughing and sneezing have subsided and the heaviness in my sinuses is dissipating.  Same for my chest.   A few more days and I should be good to go.

Glad to hear you are doing better. 

Good...get better and avoid paying it forward.

What is wrong with YouTube links as sources? 

There are absolutely no links that are good enough to prove anything to liberals. You can cite left wing sites. You can cite judges and experts. You can cite the exact definition of a word in the dictionary. Then they don't do anything but regurgitate a mouth full of Greek Salad, twisted logic, and emotional diarrhea. If it doesn't exactly line up with their opinion and/or agenda, facts don't matter.

My claims are

1) Biden is doing a bad job handling the pandemic by opening the borders

2) people are not taking the virus seriously

3) hospitalizations in hotspots are leading to healthcare workers quitting

My opinions are:

1 - the borders have nothing to do with the virus
2 - agree
3 - unvaccinated people are getting sick from covid by choice, i can understand how people who've been at this for over a year are out of fucks to give

Now we got another variant to worry about.

Links without commentary are a violation of forum policy.

Look into a crystal ball in Texas, and you can see Florida's future:

Gov. Greg Abbott asks Texas hospitals to delay nonessential procedures as COVID-19 patients strain capacity (https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/09/texas-hospitals-elective-procedures-covid-greg-abbott/)

Gov. Greg Abbott announced new moves Monday to fight the coronavirus pandemic as it rages again in Texas, including asking hospitals to again put off certain elective procedures to free up space for COVID-19 patients.

Still, the governor did not back down on his refusal to institute any new statewide restrictions on businesses or to let local governments and schools mandate masks or vaccines.

Instead, Abbott announced he had written to the Texas Hospital Association asking hospitals to "voluntarily postpone medical procedures for which delay will not result in loss of life or a deterioration in the patient’s condition." As coronavirus was consuming the state last summer, Abbott took a more restrictive approach and banned elective surgeries in over 100 counties before ending the prohibition in September.

---

Sounds like Freedom is ringing extremely loudly in our small government states!

Note that the liberty-minded Governor of the Lone Star State is not asking his patriotic fellow Texans to voluntarily forego elective procedures... no, no.  Instead, he is appealing directly to Big Hospital, asking them to do the dirty work of "voluntarily" denying these sovereign citizens their god-given right to make their own choice about what procedures they want and when they want it (based solely on their ability to pay).

Tyranny has, indeed, arrived on the shores of the fair Republic of Texas.

When do medical professionals who are burning out rapidly with this wave of unvaccinated morons start to deny treatments if you don't have a vaccine?

It'll happen, it's human nature. People can only be pushed so far before they snap. We're already seeing reports about the erosion of compassion for those in the right wing death cult.

I see someone previously posted here about another civil war breaking out only this time it would be the right vs the left.   Now I'm thinking it may be the vaxxed vs the unvaxxed.

On a personal note, I'm about 95% as of this morning and headed back to work.  And no, I will not wear a government muzzle.

But will you wear an actual mask in a show of compassion to your coworkers, friends and random strangers who might come within range of your breathing?

No need to.   I tested negative three times in the past three days.

Snowball continues to roll down hill, gains speed and mass:

Gov. Abbott Requests Help From Hospitals, Out-of-State Healthcare Workers as Virus Surges (https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/abbott-requests-out-of-state-healthcare-workers-asks-hospitals-to-postpone-elective-surgeries-as-virus-surges/2714430/)

Texas will ask healthcare workers from other states to assist with its surge in COVID-19 cases and request hospitals voluntarily postpone elective surgeries to create more space for coronavirus patients, Gov. Greg Abbott (R) said Monday.

Additionally, the Texas Department of Emergency Management and the Texas Department of State Health Services will open more COVID-19 antibody transfusion centers in the state. There, patients who test positive for the coronavirus but do not need hospitalization can be treated with therapeutic drugs.

Abbott waited until the third paragraph of his order to encourage Texans to get vaccinated, and never mentioned the use of face masks to slow the spread of the coronavirus and its variants.

And right on schedule, over in the Sunshine State:

Federal government sends ventilators to Florida as DeSantis says he's unaware of shipment (https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/11/politics/florida-ventilators-desantis/index.html)

The Biden administration sent hundreds of ventilators to Florida in recent days as the state responds to a dramatic new increase in Covid-19 cases and hospitalizations, an official from the Department of Health and Human Services confirmed to CNN. But Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis claims he's unaware of the shipment.
A health administration official confirms the Strategic National Stockpile sent 200 ventilators and 100 high-flow nasal cannula kits to the state of Florida "earlier this week." The SNS sends equipment when it receives requests from states and their health departments, according to the official.
Despite that, DeSantis told reporters Tuesday that he was unaware of the request for the medical supplies.

"I would honestly doubt that that's true, but I'll look because we have a lot of stuff that we stockpiled over the last year and a half through the Department of Emergency Management," DeSantis said when asked by a reporter about a request from the state for the additional supplies.

It's fake news, folks!  If DeSantis just closes his eyes and insists that He Has No Idea How Those Ventilators Got There, then COVID must be well under control in Florida!

---

The anti-science denialism of everything from evolution to climate change, that has been a philosophical pillar of conservatism since George H.W. Bush left office, is finally coming home to roost with direct consequences that cannot be ignored or dismissed.

"I washed my hands after using the toilet yesterday, so I think I'm already good going forward"

So far in the war the overwhelming majority of casualties have been affecting only one side.  And the majority of folks treated the wounded on that side are on the other side.

Some people refusing to follow protocol seem to be following this logic:  I drove my car without a seat belt and nothing happened, so I am not going to wear a seat belt from now on.   Seems like flawed logic

  Numbers?

My updated plan at beating COVID:

- Mask mandates for all students and staff K-8 until vaccine is available for everyone 5+.
- Mask mandate with opt-out for vaccinated students 9-12.
- Vaccine required for State colleges.
- Vaccine required for military service.
- Vaccine required for government work and first responders, teachers, court-workers, etc.
- Vaccine required for nursing homes and hospital workers.
- Work with health insurance to modify costs so there's discount for vaxxing, like there is for not smoking.
- Work to aid private industry to institute on their own.  Most big companies would benefit from this also.  NFL, Google, Cruise Lines, Airlines, any line work, Amazon, Uber, etc.
- Individual people with power can choose this: concert-throwers, high profile actors that insist on a vaccinated set, guests that won't go on any talk show that doesn't have a fully vaccinated staff, even sports athletes could do it.  Giannis could say he was only going to accept trades to a team with a vaccine mandate...you can apply pressure if you want.
- Vaccine required to enter the country.
- Vaccine or negative COVID test to fly domestic.
- Get full FDA Approval - Add vaccine mandate for K-12.

I think that most people will just get vaccinated because it's easier.  Maybe you're hesitant, but you don't want to miss out on things and it's just easier to go along with it.  With enough people vaccinated, they'll lose the will to fight against something they've already taken.

Yes, there will be outliers, but the vast majority of people will just do it.  And with a K-12 mandate, each year more vax will come in and more unvax and old will die out.

   

7, 5, 9, and 14.   :)   

^^^ Go with 9...every time.

Sunshine State proceeding apace:

Orlando declares water shortage due to pandemic (https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2021/08/20/orlando-declares-water-shortage-due-to-pandemic)

At a press conference on Friday, Mayor Buddy Dyer and the Orlando Utilities Commission shared that their supply of liquid oxygen used to treat the city's water is expected to be lower than usual. OUC shared that they might receive less than half of their typical 10 tanker per week supply due to a shortage. That lack of supply is due to the increase in demand for oxygen to treat hospitalized patients suffering from coronavirus complications.

Where, indeed, does Ron DeSantis go to get (https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/where-does-ron-desantis-go-to-get-his-apology/) his apology (https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/again-where-does-desantis-get-his-apology/) after winning the pandemic (https://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-nightly/2021/03/18/how-ron-desantis-won-the-pandemic-492163)?

In totally unrelated news, now trending:
(https://images.prod.meredith.com/product/062320364b13529b1227704727311ef8/1629282808181/l/dont-desantis-my-california-t-shirt)

That's OK. Your next governor, a republican, will fix your state too.

I'm pretty quiet on COVID.  Things are bad here.  People are dying on my Facebook feed...people's parents who refused the vaccine.  I feed sad for them, but I just don't know what else you can do.

I got the mask mandate that I wanted for my own kids' school, so I'm comfortable there.
I just heard today that a J&J booster is going to give a much, much higher immunity, which is unexpected, so that's good, because that's what I got.

The vaccine numbers are slowly upticking.  More and more companies are realizing that a mandate is the only thing that makes sense for their business model.

I have a greater overall care for humanity and knocking this out before it mutates to something that can kill everyone, but for now, I have the tools I need, more or less, to protect my family, so I'll take it.

Stay safe out there.

In all seriousness what is going on really sucks. Every week we are learning of people who have passed and some are vaccinated.

Just recently I've know two couples go through Covid. One of them was vaccinated and her husband was not. They suffered pretty much the same throughout their ordeal. The other couple she was vaccinated and he was not. He never showed any symptoms while she got pretty sick but didn't require the hospital. Outside of the crazy arse side effects this sickness really is all over the place. Not being overweight and being healthy seem to be the best defense to me.

^
The best defense, by medical proof, is getting vaccinated to keep you from dying or getting hospitalized.  Those other factors are also helpful as well.

As a community, we need to do better about stopping the spread.  This means vaccines, masking when in the general populace, and being more aware and socially distanced and hygienic, in general. Sick people, even if they're not dead, is bad for other people, the economy, and leads to more virus mutations.

I'm fairly exhausted with the anti-vaxxers, it's just monumental stupidity at this point.  But I agree, people shouldn't be forced to be vaccinated.  Anti-maskers that disrupt school board meetings are the absolute dregs of humanity however. It's absurd to the extreme. It's like protesting because a store made you wear shoes to go inside. There are already dress codes in schools. You don't see people threatening Drs and nurses and school board members cause their kids have to wear a polo to school.

I agree with vaccination mandates for private enterprises and for things like schools or for any sort of elective hospital procedure. It's bad enough that these idiots put out stupidity like "I don't need a shot, jesus will protect me from covid" and then inundate emergency rooms and take up all the ICU beds. The only thing I can think to rationalize that behavior is that Jesus is shit at protecting people, or they think Jesus went to medical school and is working at their hospital.

The cynical asshole part of me isn't upset about these right wing anti-vaccine radio hosts dying left and right from covid. The human part of me is pretty ashamed of feeling like that and thinks it's an awful tragedy that so many people are so delusional and so wrapped up in a ideology that is so self-harming.

I disagree, the single best defense is to stay away from other people. I'd rather isolate myself and be unvaccinated than be like my brother and his wife that are vaccinated and go galavanting around town and out to eat 5 times a week. I'm seeing more and more high profile vaccinated people in the news/social media who have caught and/or died from the virus. Politicians, law enforcement, actors, musicians, etc. For every high profile vaccinated person who catches and/or dies from covid there has to be hundreds, if not thousands of non high profile "regular people" in the same situation.

I don't think they know what the fuck they're talking about. Shit changes on a weekly basis.

If you have been vaccinated you don't need a mask ------> If you been vaccinated you need to wear a mask ------> Vaccinated people can still catch, transmit, and die ------> Vaccinated people may need a booster.

The ironic part is that I said that I would get the vaccine when it was fully approved. However, the amount of harassment is off the charts. The more people harass me to get the vaccine, the longer I'll wait to get it. Next time my brother attempts to harass me, I'll politely let him know that I may get the vaccine. But you will never know either way because it's none of your business.

You just had covid tho, I don't know what the ideal waiting period is for people who've recovered to get a vaccine. So you may have to wait a little bit.

This is a false dichotomy.  Getting vaccinated is safer than not getting vaccinated.  Isolation is safer than going out to eat every day.  Both are true.  Sure, stay home if that's acceptable for you, but get vaccinated also to greatly, greatly improve your chances.


Caught COVID, yes.  You can be vaccinated and catch COVID and lots and lots of people will, but it's incredibly rare to get vaccinated and still die from COVID.  I pay attention to this very regularly and I don't know of high profile cases of this occurring.  There are some, but they are miniscule.


This is science, man.  Don't be daft.  The virus if FUCKING MUTATING, so the advice they give about one strain is different than another.  Also, there is a public pressure aspect.  The CDC gambled that the promise of no masks would cause people to get vaccinated.  And they didn't.  They just didn't wear and mask AND didn't get vaccinated, and now the Delta Variant is way more transmissible.  You're still unlikely to get sick if vaccinated, but your possibility of contracting and spreading the disease is still quite high, so masking helps.

Science will continue to learn and adapt its recommendation.  That's not a bug in science.  That's a feature.


It was obvious that people claiming they were waiting for FDA approval were full of shit and that it was a moving goalpost.

In the other post, we talked about consequences to your actions -- this is the consequence.  You can be someone who is uncompromising and shuts people out and refuses to be a man of your word and won't do what's need to protect your extended family.  But your brother might think you're an asshole and harrass you about it to the point that it strains your relationship.  If you're cool with that, do you.  But that's the cost.

Dave .. the vaccine isn't for everyone. Although the media conveniently leaves out this part it is documented. There are recorded thousands of deaths let alone thousands of cases of severe side effects.  6,123 cases of tinnitus, 22,286 cases of severe allergic reactions, 1,932 cases of low platelet counts, 12,808 people who have been put on permanent disability, 3,201 cases of myocarditis and pericarditis, 4,799 heart attacks, 1,272 miscarriages, 3,714 cases of Bell's Palsy, 4110 Anaphylaxis, 65,067 cases of people who had to go to Urgent Care, 4991 hospitalizations, and 11,940 deaths.

These stats come directly from VAERS.   (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System)

 From the FDA website .... https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccine-adverse-events/vaccine-adverse-event-reporting-system-vaers-questions-and-answers

What is VAERS?

VAERS is a national vaccine safety surveillance program created as an outgrowth of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986 (NCVIA) and is administered by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). VAERS collects and analyzes data from reports of adverse events following vaccination.

Who can report to VAERS?

Anyone can report to VAERS. VAERS reports are usually submitted by health care providers, vaccine manufacturers, vaccine recipients (or their parents/guardians) and state immunization programs. Patients, parents, and guardians are encouraged to seek the help of a health-care professional in reporting to VAERS

Oh god, not this VAERS BS.

VAERS is entirely self-reported with absolutely no tracking or verification.  I could go on VAERS tomorrow and say that the COVID vaccine caused my leg to fall off.  It is a system that is utterly unprepared to deal with an influx of politically motivated liars.

VAERS is the darling of anti-vaxxers because the actual scientific tracking completely demolishes all of their arguments.  It is the vaccine equivalent of walking outside during a Michigan winter, picking up a snowball, and saying, "I have strong scientific evidence that the earth is not warming."

(https://images.dailykos.com/images/574802/story_image/1350.png?1533664371)

11,940 of 5.04 BILLION doses.

It's a simple risk assessment.

You're hundreds (probably thousands -- haven't done the math) more likely to die of getting COVID when you're unvaccinated than you are of dying from the vaccine.



Yes, if your doctor says you have a special case where the vaccine is risky, by all means, don't get the vaccine.  But for a regular person -- for you -- get the fuckin' vaccine, man.  Do it for yourself, do it for your family, do it for everyone.

CF claimed that being in shape and not overweight was the best defense. You claimed the best defense, by medical proof, is getting vaccinated. I disagree, isolation is better than both of those. It's virtually impossible to catch Covid if you're not around anyone infected with Covid.

This isn't going away. It's the new flu. Science and vaccines will always be lagging behind the actual mutations. They know less than you think they know, that much is obvious. I find it interesting though, black people seem very sceptical of the vaccine. As a group, democrats are pushing this vaccine harder than anyone else. The majority of blacks vote democrat. However, the overwhelming majority of the black people that I've talked to (that's a lot) haven't been vaccinated and given the impression that they wouldn't be getting vaccinated. So let's not put this strictly on conservatives.

It has nothing to do with being a man of your word. It has to do with harassing people.

In the past 7 days my brother has texted me 5 times about this fucking vaccine. It amounts to bullying. I don't need a countdown to approval reminder every other day. It's in the fucking news everyday. Like I'm supposed to hurry up and run out and get it the day it's approved. No, it's ain't that big a deal to me. I'll get it when I get around to getting it. Maybe Friday, maybe Monday, or maybe the first of the month.

I keep see all you guys saying, "I don't think we should force people to get vaccinated". Then STFU about it and mind your business. Your harassment, bullying, and ridicule is having the opposite effect.

Leave it to Spider to change the topic and throw out the race card. BTW, FYI real Nazis don't exist anymore. They were virtually eliminated after WWII.

Talking like that isn't going to help raise the vaccination numbers. It's bewildering to me why you don't understand that it's having the opposite effect.

There have been just under 39 million COVID cases in the US, resulting in 648,000 deaths.
There have over 364 million COVID vaccine doses given to Americans, with more than 171 million fully vaccinated.  Even if we use CF's numbers of 11,940 deaths, that means that catching COVID is over 238 times more deadly than being fully vaccinated.

It is 100% on topic.  The cartoon is about conservatives' total aversion to accepting responsibility for their own decisions, which you display in this thread.  "I was going to do the right thing, but then You Were Mean To Me, so I decided not to.  Look what you made me do!"

I understand it's having the opposite effect on you.  I'm not in public service trying to encourage vaccine by being gentle.  I'm calling a spade a spade.  I'm not going to coddle your shitty opinion.  Don't get the vaccine, get COVID, do your thing.

I gots mines.

No, it's having the opposite effect on a majority of the unvaccinated. 

It's not you job to encourage or discourage anything. Other people's vaccination status is actually none of your business. 

As pointed out in another recent thread. Your opinions are just as shitty as mine, just on the opposite end of the spectrum. That's why they're called opinions.

I never said I wasn't getting the vaccine. But not getting the vaccine doesn't mean you'll get covid. LMFAO, classic liberal scare tactics.

Congratulations to you and your false sense of security.

I'm 100% responsible. I fully understand the risks and wish to proceed with my own decisions. If I die of Covid due to not getting the vaccine, it is unequivocally 100% my fault. Now what's your problem again?

You claim you accept responsibility for your own decisions... right after you state that the reason why you're not following through on your plans to get a vaccine after it has been fully approved is because your brother and others like him are BULLYING you.  Or as you just said to Dave:


In other words, the lack of vaccine uptake isn't because of people like you who refuse to get vaccinated... it's because of people like us who keep HARASSING you to get vaccinated!

I repeat: "Look what you made me do!"

I am done giving a shit about the antivaxers.  We need a hospital policy that says unvaccinated covid patients are triaged as lowest priority.  Wanna be a fucking idiot than be a fucking idiot, but don't occupy an ICU bed needed by a car accident victim.

If the anti-vaxxers would follow through on their dedication to freedom and personal choice - by not running to the evil, corrupt medical establishment when their COVID symptoms get bad, and staying home with their vitamins and prayer to fight the disease - we wouldn't be here.

But they want to eat their cake and have it too: they insist that it's their personal choice to risk getting COVID, but they also believe they are entitled to take a hospital bed (from other people who were more careful about their own safety) if they do catch it.

I am not willing to take an FDA approved vaccine because I don't trust it has been researched enough, but if I get sick I will self medicate with an unresearched horse dewormer.

I haven't refused to get vaccinated. I'll get vaccinated when I choose to make an appointment and go get vaccinated. Who cares? It's not like they're not going to run out of the vaccine. Maybe this week, maybe next week, or maybe the first of the month. Nothing anyone says will change that. It's only been fully approved for a couple days. WTF is wrong with you people?

Made me do? If I don't do anything, how can I claim you made me do something? An inaction is the opposite of an action. No one can make me do anything. That's the whole fucking point. I do what I choose to do, when I choose to do it.

For me, this has nothing to do with the actual vaccine. It has to do with assholes being an annoying pricks. If you tell someone you're going to do something at a certain point in the future and they annoy the shit out of you everyday up until that day arrives. Eventually, you're going to tell them "fuck off asshole".

Yes, you have (and are), because you are not vaccinated.
Do you somehow believe that if you eventually get vaccinated in 2031, that means you didn't "refuse" the vaccine for a decade?

YOU'RE the one claiming that the reason you're not doing it is because you're being harassed!  You do it again IN THIS VERY POST:

"You'd better stop harassing me or I'm not going to get vaccinated!"

So I guess by that logic I guess we can say Biden refused to pull out of Afghanistan because he didn't do it by the May 1st deadline . Also, anyone who didn't get the vaccine the first week it was available, we'll just say they refused it. Some of your arguments are so stupid and childlike that you can't even be taken seriously.

There is something really wrong with you. I literally just said in the last post that I would do it when I make an appointment and go do it. You're just straight up lying, there is no where in this thread that I've said, "I'm not going to get vaccinated." You just want to argue with someone regardless of how ridiculous your claims are.


"You'd better stop harassing me or I'm not going to get vaccinated!" is not anywhere close to "fuck off asshole", "shut the fuck up", "mind your own damn business", or just ignoring someone. It's amazing how toxic some people get when they figure out they can't control you, LMFAO...

Yes, that is how "refusal" works: if you choose not to do a thing, then you have refused to do it... up until the point that you actually do it, at which time your refusal has ended.

So since you are not vaccinated NOW, you have refused the vaccine, and are continuing to refuse it until such time that you take it, which could be a week, a month, a year from now... maybe even never!

In contrast, your clownish logic for how "refusal" works means that you technically can't say a person has "refused" something unless they're dead, because they MIGHT get it sometime in the undetermined future!

So you will get vaccinated... when you decide to get vaccinated.  (But definitely not right now, because your brother harassed you about getting vaccinated.)
Therefore, anyone who claims that you're not getting vaccinated is a LIAR.  Because you totally plan to do it sometime in the undefined future!

In related news, how dare anyone say that I'm not donating all my money towards providing healthcare for the poor, after I clearly stated that I INTEND to do so sometime in the future before I die?  (That is, unless you continue to ask me when I'm going to do it, in which case I might not do it at all because of you.)  What a despicable lie!

In a way it's entertaining watching control freaks realize that they actually have no control over other people. But at the same time it's sad watching fully grown adults so invested in other people's lives.

Like I said earlier, I plan to get the vaccine. But the best course of action is that no one will ever know if I have been vaccinated or not. And if someone asks, I'll just tell them that it's none of their business.

My only opinion of the Covid vaccine going forward is. If you want to get it, get it. If you don't want to get it, don't get it. Any other questions, go fuck yourself.

Until the first time you go someplace that requires proof of vaccination, of course, in which case one of three things will happen:

1) You'll show them your proof of vaccination
2) You won't show them your vaccination record and then you'll go home
3) You'll whine at whoever is checking vax records about how your civil liberties are being stomped on.

In your case, I would sincerely and overwhelmingly expect that #3 would accompany whichever applies between #1 and #2.

I went home sick today.  I am fully vaccinated.  I have no fever just a cough, runny nose, and sore throat.  I plan to take a test tomorrow.  I wonder if I do have the common cold, should I stay home?

So you're against the government compelling businesses to serve people with unknown vaccination status, right?  Freedom of choice and all.

Just kidding!  I know "freedom of choice" is code for your freedom to remain unvaccinated, not others' freedom to choose not to deal with plague rats.  Just like "freedom of religion" is code for preventing other people from getting married.

Yes obviously #1 or #2 would apply if that specific situation arises. But then again, due to covid, I don't really go anywhere anyhow. I was specifically referring to asshole family members, dickhead internet people, and random strangers & acquaintances who don't have anything better to do than harass people.    

And you're wrong about #3, that won't happen since it has nothing to do with civil liberties. If it's private property, they can choose to ask me to leave. If not, I'd be trespassing and subject arrest. Just like they can ask me to leave if they see me conceal carrying and want me to leave the premises. I'm all for law and order.

No one is talking about or even brought up the government. I specifically referring to people like you that have absolutely no authority to do anything but spout your nonsense in an effort to get people to comply with you radical whacko agenda.

You don't have to deal with anyone you don't want to deal with. It's a free country. You are free to go almost anywhere you want to go. Or you're free to sit in the safety of your home and go nowhere. Remember, as you liberals say. With that freedom comes consequences and risks, choose wisely.

For all the trash that the anti-vaxxers talk about resisting tyranny, the moment their jobs enact a vaccine mandate they bend the knee so fast you'd think they're NFL players and the national anthem is on.

Cool.  I think you're making the right choice for your own health, but also for the health of the masses.  I hope you have a good experience with it.

No comment.

Well, thankfully I own my own business and I don't require the vaccine. 

Chicago Police Dept just told the mayor to go F herself they aren't vaccinating. I fully expect other unions to do the same. Cracks me up every time I see or hear "I'm over these antivaxxers" as if they are the final say in what's right and wrong.

Kind of an ironic question but since most minorities do not have the vaccine don't you consider it racist and suppression to require vaccine passports?

tbf, a lot of people have told that mayor to go F herself for a lot of different things.

LMAO ... very true.

Yeah, I brought that up earlier in the thread and crickets. Around here, they selectively reply with nonsense off topic shit and pass right over the point being made. I'm not even sure what exactly an anti vaxxer is. Seems like it's just another political scary term used to manipulate people, kind of like assault weapon, ghost gun, or weapon of war.

Anyhow, yeah it's amazing that it's the conservatives being harassed and bullied for being the "antivaxxers". But yet minorities have the lowest vaccination rates. And as the media reminds us in every election, the overwhelming majority of minorities vote democrat. See the pivot and spin? Watch it again. Blacks and Hispanics are overwhelmingly majority democrat, but yet have lower vaccination rates compared to whites. But it's the conservatives that are the antivaxxers. That's why you can't even take these people serious.

If I got conned like the voters of Chicago I'd tell her to go fuck herself too. Shit ain't even funny, it's sad

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EUci9-6XQAEaVHz?format=jpg&name=900x900)

No, so long as the vaccine is readily available to all, I have no issue with that.

I don't remember seeing this point, but I can give you an answer right now: this is an incredibly lazy troll question, on the same level as "You guys say you are pro-life but you don't want to mandate a vaccine to protect against a disease that has killed millions worldwide over the last year?"

All you guys do is complain about the racism card being thrown around willy-nilly, but now we're supposed to believe that you are deeply concerned about potential racism against the people you don't mind turning away from the polling booth?  It's not even remotely convincing.

There are legitimate concerns about poor people (and therefore, disproportionately minorities) being unable to take two days off from work to recover from the short-term symptoms that accompany some of the vaccines, but I know the "People are getting too much money from unemployment" crew doesn't give the slightest damn about that.

Seeing as they have the guns, I hope that if she tells them to get vaccinated or lose their job, they shoot her dead.  Same deal with military personnel.

very on brand with 1/6 here

1st of all. Abortion has nothing to do with this discussion. However, my opinion is that if you've had more than one abortion from having voluntary sex. You're a lazy sack of shit moron with no character or integrity. Other than that, I don't give a shit about abortion.


Oh, make no mistake. I'm not concerned about non existent racism at the voting booth or the Covid vaccine booth. The point is that the left is labeling the right as "anti-vaxxers". When in reality, Blacks and Hispanics are overwhelmingly majority democrat, but yet have lower vaccination percentage rates compared to whites. Therefore, logic would dictate that Democrats are the real anti-vaxxers.

The military is already mandated to get vaccinated or undergo regular testing...and I'll semi-assume that you weren't serious when you suggested that police or our military shoot an American citizen, just because they disagree with your position on vaccines.

You know we can directly compare the vaccination rates of Democrats and Republicans, right?  Here's a hint: Democrats are FAR ahead.

Furthermore, black Americans (as a whole) have a higher vaccination rate than white Republicans.  So let's not try to pretend that we don't know where the problem is.

There isn't a problem anywhere as far as vaccination rates. It's a free country, if you want the vaccine get it. If you don't, don't get it. The problem is the false narrative blame game the liberals play. The two groups with the lowest vaccination rates are black and Hispanic, that's a fact. I'm waiting for you to specifically call them out as "anti vaxxers" and publicly shame them for refusing the vaccine.

I mean a white Republican is no better or worse than a black/Hispanic Democrat. It's fairly transparent why they are being treated differently. But then again, I expect the hypocrisy and double standards from the left. It's what their whole platform was and is built on from the start. Wait, let me guess, it's the Republicans fault that blacks and Hispanics have the lowest vaccination rates, LMFAO.....

Which mandatory vaccination are you talking about? I can't even count how many shots the military is required to take.

Before we proceed any further with this concern trolling, can you please clarify whether you believe failing to get vaccinated is a bad thing?  Because it seems pretty ridiculous for you to argue that there's nothing wrong at all with choosing not to get vaccinated, BUT ALSO that I should be super concerned with the racial breakdown of vaccine statistics.

Seems to me that rather than reaching for skin color to explain the trends, it's much more effective (and accurate) to look at ideology.  But I suppose that if the only tool you have is a hammer, every nail can be explained away as the failing of a morally inferior race.

You're assuming wrong.   You don't give another American citizen an ultimatum regarding something like this.   If you do, you're asking to get shot or get hurt. 

Did you ever attend a public school in America?
Do you have kids that have ever attended a public school in America?
You're about 50 years too late to object to the concept of mandatory vaccinations in this country, my dude.

As for your favorite gunslinging cops in Chicago: if they don't like the terms of employment, there's the door.  They can experience the freedom of exciting new job opportunities.

The difference between the military and the cops is the cops have unions.   That means they have union lawyers.   If any lawyer can successfully beat this in court, it's a union lawyer.

Since this is a thread about COVID, I think you could've answered that one yourself.

Right?

Correction 116.  Jacobson v. Mass 1905.  States have the authority to mandate vaccines during a pandemic.  Note this law applied to all inhabitants of the community, not just those in a employed by the state or attending public schools.

Do you personally know anyone who got a 3rd booster shot? -- I have two.

Both have wonky immune systems.

States, not the federal government.   And DeSantis will never make the COVID vaccine mandatory as long as he is in office.

George Washington already proved that the federal government can mandate vaccines for the military... and that was before we had a volunteer military.

That particular case was dealing with a state law.  But the feds would have no problem making the case that the virus affects interstate commerce.

Wait, you think that a morally inferior race exists? Well that would explain most of your nonsense viewpoints. So basically what you're saying is that you'll be more than happy to scream and yell about white conservative anti-vaxxers, but when it comes to black and Hispanic anti-vaxxers, they get a pass. You're so full of shit.

My question was rhetorical. The point was another poster was up in arms about the COVID vaccination when our military personel are basically pin cushions.

Both tests came back negative.  I have the common cold.  Surprising to me that the common cold does not have a diagnostic test.  I had over two hundred fifty hours of personal time saved, so I was able to take two and half days off of my heath care work.  I have an entire weekend of shifts at the grocery store.  I am trying to find out if I catch the virus now, wi it be more deadly because of my cold.  Haven't been able to find the answer.     

You are allowed to bank that much time? Wow.

When I worked for Seminole County some people had in excess of 1100 hours until they changed the process. People like banking it to sell back when they retire. Needless to say it seemed like the people who had the most PTO banked was the grouchiest people at work. Go figure ... hahaha.

When my grandmother retired after working for NYC for 48 years she had a combined 53 weeks of vacation and sick time.  They didn't have a buy back program, rather she stopped coming in for work about a year before she officially retired.

Conservatives as a whole have lower vaccination rates than black or Hispanic Americans, but you don't care about that.  In fact, for some unknown reason, the only time you seem to care about anti-vaxxers at all is when you can say, "Why aren't you screaming and yelling about all the black and Hispanic anti-vaxxers?"  Truly an unsolvable mystery.

The sad part is that you appear to think you've caught me in some sort of logical trap that exposes me...?  But since I'm not a conservative, I can actually have a set of morals that I stand by, which makes this "problem" easy to resolve.  Feel free to mark the tape:

All people who oppose vaccines, of any race, on the right or on the left, are full of shit (some literally so (https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7by4w/are-anti-vaxers-really-pooping-themselves-because-of-ivermectin)).  Their ignorance and selfishness is making things worse for all of us and causing hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths.

Would you like to find a black or Hispanic anti-vaxxer for me to condemn?  If seeing minorities receive criticism from a liberal gets you off, I'll be happy to make your day.

I am going to go a different direction than spider.

If you are a white anti-vaxxer, you are paranoid and delusional.  Paranoid = irrational fear.

If you are an AA anti-vaxxer who is concerned that because of the color of your skin the government might use you for an experiment rather than give you the vax, your concerns are unfortunate, but your fear is not unfounded nor paranoia but understandable given Tuskney.

I think you mean "Tuskegee."

Yeah, spelling has never been a strong point of mine.  But the point is there are valid reason for one group's hesitancy, but not the others.

If you had the set of morals that you claim to have, you would automatically treat people equally based on their behavior and not the color of their skin or political affiliation. Black and Hispanic make up the largest two groups of what you people claim to be anti-vaxxers. Your position is laughable and hypocritical.

At the end of the day both groups are unvaccinated. If the goal it to get everyone vaccinated, none of what you just said even matters. You're just giving a pass to one group while vilifying another group based on race. That's pretty much textbook racism. You've both graduated to the next level, congratulations.

They literally do not; conservatives are the largest group by a substantial margin.

Black and Hispanic people only make up the "largest groups" if you choose to ignore political affiliation as a category, and focus only on race instead.  "Political affiliation" is a behavior, but you don't like using that metric because it instantly exposes your cynicism on this topic.

Not getting the vaccine is also a behavior and Black and Hispanic people are the two largest unvaccinated ethnicities in the country for their relative population levels. Those damn anti-vaxxers

Anyone that doesn't get a vaccine at this point regardless of ethnicity, national origin, religion or personal belief is an asshole in my book. They're just making life difficult for the rest of us who just want this pandemic to be over.

Exactly.

But pondwater doesn't agree with that.  He just thinks we're hypocrites for criticizing ALL anti-vaxxers, instead of focusing just on the black and Hispanic ones.

Funny how you criticize "ALL" anti-vaxxers only when you get called out for your hypocrisy. Before that it was all about the evil conservative anti-vaxxers.

You shouldn't be criticizing anyone for exercising their freedom of choice, regardless of their ethnic background.

Sure you should. Absolutely you should. You should never criticize people for who they are or where they were born. But you absolutely 100% should criticize people for their choices and for their opinions. I don't give 2 shits that they're exercising their freedoms, that just means it's not illegal to make those choices. It's still assholery. Respect people, not ideas, not choices. They stand on their own.

No, you shouldn't.   People don't want this poison put into their bodies for a reason.   And as you can see, it doesn't do a very good job of protecting you from the virus.  Therefore, I will not be getting it (not that I need to since I've already had COVID).   

And for those who want to criticize me because I'm putting others at risk, then to quote Ivan Drago in Rocky IV:   "If they die, they die"

I think the people that don't want to take the vaccine are going about this all wrong. If you want to get it, go ahead and get it. If you don't want to get it, just don't get it. I won't judge anyone either way.

But whatever you do, don't tell anyone your vaccination status. That way the nutball liberals won't know who to bully and harrass. I got better shit to do than argue my healthcare choices with crazy people. And no, that doesn't mean I'm not vaccinated. It means it's none of your damn business either way.

It's your right, and it's my right to think you're an asshole and to not want to be anywhere near you. You know .. freedom and all that.

I'm cool with that too. You don't have to tell anyone you're vaccinated or not. Unless of course there's a requirement, be it a private business as a condition of entry or employment or a public institution as a legal requirement. Either way up to you to not frequent those places.

Assholes always win.

keep winning then

I don't like any free passes given to black people for Tuskeegee as it relates to the COVID vaccine.  My wife brings that up, and I say "fuck that".

The information is out there.  You either choose to accept the world's scientific community or you don't.

As noted earlier, for anyone that doesn't want to get vaccinated, the single best way not to catch covid is to limit your exposure to other people. Most businesses like profits that the customers provide and want to stay in business and aren't going to require anything on their own. I can't foresee the government making vaccinations mandatory to go buy food or necessities. Plenty of restaurants that have outside seating. With breakthrough Covid spreading like it is, I'm not interested in going to anything with large crowds like concerts or sports events anyhow. I been doing this 18 months, it's pretty easy and not really a big deal.

It still is; conservatives are the worst offenders when it comes to opposing the COVID vaccines.  And seeing you complain of supposed hypocrisy as you blame black anti-vaxxers in one post while gently caressing conservative anti-vaxxers in the next post are a joke.  I'm calling you out RIGHT NOW and you're still doing it!

On a related note, I came across a timely article today.  Looks like you're not the only conservative trying to scapegoat brown people for vaccine hesitancy (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/08/24/republicans-keep-hiding-behind-white-democrats-shift-vaccine-hesitancy-blame-onto-blacks/):

Republicans keep hiding behind White Democrats to shift vaccine hesitancy blame onto Black Americans

...Republicans are (probably subconsciously) trying to use the fact that most Republicans are White to imply that most Whites are Republican, which isn't true.  The reality is that Black vaccination rates do reflect a greater hesitancy than is true of Whites overall, but Blacks are less hesitant than White Republicans, the focal point of the aforementioned criticism.

A poll from NBC News released (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/nbc-news-poll-shows-demographic-breakdown-vaccinated-u-s-n1277514) on Tuesday offers an interesting lens on the question.  It broke out self-reported vaccination rates by a number of demographic groups.  Poeple who voted for President Biden last year, for example, overwhelmingly say they've been vaccinated.  Republicans largely say they haven't.  In this poll, unlike many others, Whites are less likely to report having been vaccinated than Blacks.  [...]

Yes, Black Americans are both more likely to express hesitation about getting vaccinated than Whites and (in part due to structural challenges) are less likely to have gotten a shot.  But by focusing on Black vaccination rates, Republicans are simply trying to draw a false equivalence with the left broadly, using those higher rates among Whites to cast Blacks as laggards - even though White rates are higher because of White Democrats.  If you remove the White Democrats from the White totals, Black vaccination rates would almost certainly be higher.

---

So yeah, the largest source of the problem is ultra clear.  But that's OK, because you "won't judge anyone either way."  Unless it's black people, who you think I should be criticizing.  Even though I criticize everyone who opposes the vaccines and I've never expressed any sort of support for them.

I will.  If vaxxers choose not to be around me, that's one thing.   But vaxxers choose to criticize me in public or on social media, be prepared for a verbal confrontation which if in person, could very well escalate into a physical one.

If by "vaxxers" you mean regular people then yes, I'm criticizing you. Your decision is stupid. It's selfish and ignorant. It ignores common sense, any sense of community, respect for those unable to protect themselves, or children. I'm very comfortable criticizing you in public.

The attitude that you would escalate any criticism to a physical level just makes you a petulant child throwing a tantrum when being rightfully admonished. Grow up.

You really-really-really need to get some professional help for those anger issues.

Lot's of Drs and medical staff quitting their jobs over not taking the vaccine so I wouldn't say the scientific community is a settled as your media would like to believe with their scare tactics. Currently Orange County, FL firefighters have hundreds of firemen/women protesting against it as well as their Union.

Kind of funny to me but I saw a CNN scare tactics argument that if you take the vaccine you have a .001 percent chance of being hospitalized. They then went on to say that unvaccinated are 25 times more likely to be hospitalized. 25 freaking times higher!! Why wouldn't anyone just take it? Their scare tactics didn't allow them to actually say it but 25 times more makes it .025 % chance of being hospitalized if you are not vaccinated. Still very low.

^^^ So, "scare tactic" is your new buzz phrase...got it.

What would you like for me to call it? Obviously the "facts" were presented in a completely different way to affect the presentation of the story.

Call it "science," get on board and stop being part of the problem.

Choosing not to get vaccinated is no more of a personal choice than choosing to drive drunk -- your actions or inaction creates a risk to others.

I disagree. Any time you go out you are putting yourself at risk to catching something. This is no different. If I am covid free I do not pose a risk to you just because I didn't get a shot. If I am postive I pose no more risk than a vaccinated person ... as they carry the virus to if exposed. None of the shots prevent you from getting it nor carrying it.

Yeah, already read that article a few days ago. One thing to remember, it's a poll. I'm going by figures and data that is reported by the CDC/states. I could be wrong, but as far as I can tell there is no actual data being recorded at point of vaccination that actually breaks it down by party affiliation. I know for a fact that they require your racial/ethnic data. They don't however, ask your party affiliation. So maybe you need to ask the racist government or CDC why they require racial/ethnic data and not voting data.

This is the only part of the article that is relevant to this discussion.

I guess you could try that. However, without actual party affiliation numbers that are recorded at point of vaccination. It would be nothing but a guess at best. That's why they say "almost certainly" and not "definitely" would be higher. You're arguing something that isn't officially being tracked. And if you don't have fact based data, your point is moot. Provide me with official numbers that are being recorded and reported by the CDC and states broken down by party affiliation and I'll be happy to review the data.
---

Let's get this ultra crystal clear for you. I don't give half a fuck who does or doesn't get the vaccine. If black, Hispanic, or anyone else doesn't want the vaccine, that fine with me. It's not my business, that's between them and their physician. The latest updated and only official data being tracked that I can find on the subject says that blacks and Hispanics are the two largest groups of unvaccinated as of August 16th. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the left when they point the finger at conservatives, when in fact the official data from the CDC and states says that the largest unvaccinated groups are overwhelmingly comprised of people who vote democrat. Like I said, show me official data being recorded at point of vaccination that supports your argument. If you can't do that there's no point for you to continue because you're just playing partisan politics again

That's the liberal way. Try to scare the public into curtailing their  own rights. Assault weapon, ghost gun, weapon of war are all silly nonsense terms liberals use to scare people. If you're scared of going in public, by all means stay home. But don't try to scare other people into giving up their freedoms because you're too chicken shit to deal with your phobia of death.

You have more of a chance to get killed by a drunk driver than dying of covid. The best way to prevent either is to stay away from people that drink and drive. And to stay away from people with Covid. You have the freedom to safely stay home or take your chances going out in public. By the way there are many more things than drunk driving that are statistically more likely to kill you than Covid. You know what tells us that? It's like science, math, and stuff.

Any time you leave the house, you're putting yourself at risk of being hit by a car.  So why should drunk driving laws exist?  Why should your fear of having your family killed by a drunk driver mean that I can't drink and drive?  Maybe I don't live my life in perpetual terror of death like you, and I want to experience the freedom to drink, as the 21st Amendment provides.

Wrong.  If you catch COVID and are unvaccinated, you are much more likely to need a hospital bed, which affects literally anyone who may need a hospital bed.

I mean, if y'all actually followed through on all your tough talk about how you aren't going to let a virus rule your life, and you'd rather die on your feet than live on your knees, then we would have a different situation.  These rugged and independent anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers would choke to death in their own bedrooms while living out their ideals to the very end.

But that's not what happens.  Instead, you guys talk all this shit about the evil, corrupt doctors who are lying about the fake virus, and the inflated COVID cases, and the vaccine that's worse than the disease... right up until the moment that you're gasping for breath, and then you're demanding care in the fraudulent hospitals.

Of all the selfish assholes that make a name for themselves with their activism against COVID precautions before they end up dying of COVID... EVERY SINGLE ONE of them takes their last breath in a hospital.  Not one of them had the personal integrity to die at home, with the same contempt of our medical professionals that they spewed on a daily basis.

Nice double standard.  So we should help some irresponsible people but not others?

Are... are you drawing an equivalence between feeding poor people and providing medical services to infected people who haughtily rejected precautionary measures?  Do you think poor people present a risk of infecting other people with their poverty?  Or maybe that we're in danger of running out of food if all the poor people get to eat?

Because those are my concerns about providing services to those who are too selfish to protect themselves: 1) they put others (including healthcare workers) at risk, and 2) they take up limited hospital resources from other people who weren't so adamant about Defeating The Tyranny of health authorities.

Are you drawing a comparison between caring for sick people fighting for their lives as a result of a sickness they got while trying to live their lives normally, and giving money and food to people who are perfectly capable of earning for themselves and/or are irresponsible and continue to breed while receiving that money and food, and then demand more of it. Who continue to drink, smoke and do drugs while we have to pay for their every need.  We spend billions of dollars every year rewarding people for their irresponsibility.  That could buy a ton of hospital beds.  And it drains up precious money from the dwindling number of Americans who are honest.  And we are in danger as a country.  I've already begun storing cash and soon may buy gold because I know Biden and liberals are going to go after my retirement accounts.   And they sure infect their entitlement mentality on this country. 

 This part needs to stand by itself to highlight the manipulative wording.  He points out the cause of the sick people's predicament, but not the poor people's.  Notice that he doesn't say it this way.  Are... are you drawing an equivalence between feeding poor people and providing medical services to the sick   It should also be pointed out the use of the word poor is VERY debatable in this situation, whereas the use of sick is unquestionably correct.

Let's clarify who we're talking about, since there seems to be some confusion.

I am not talking about denying (or, more accurately, deprioritizing) medical services to all COVID victims, but rather those who specifically and intentionally refused to take precautions like masking or vaccination.  (Or as you put it: "trying to live their lives normally" during a time that is not normal.)

In contrast, you make no such distinctions with your attacks on poor people.  I've mentioned time and time again that the overwhelming majority of people receiving assistance in America are a) elderly, b) disabled*, or c) families with children. But you just can't let go of your personal resentment for some young woman you met that doesn't work and has kids.  Every comment you make about the poor is always through that lens.

*Those on disability are judged to be so by authorities that almost certainly know more about them than you do, so your inevitable response of "Well I don't think they are REALLY disabled" is not based on any sort of qualified expertise in diagnosing disability.

Maybe if I cut and paste, you'd see the double standard better                                                                                              I am not talking about denying (or, more accurately, deprioritizing) assistance to all poor people, but rather those who specifically and intentionally refused to take precautions like not doing drugs, having children even though they couldn't afford them, which doesn't apply to women only, it can apply to families on Medicaid and EBT who continue to breed and get more and more of other people's money.                                                                                                                               In contrast, you make no such distinctions with your attacks on sick.  I've mentioned time and time again that the overwhelming majority of people receiving assistance for COVID in America are a) elderly, b) have medical conditions they can't control, or c) people who were irresponsible#.  But you can't let go of your resentment for somebody who wants to be who they are.  Every comment you make about the sick is always through that lens.                                                                                                                                                   *Having Children when you are already receiving assistance is abusing the system and cheating the taxpayers regardless of what any bleeding heart says.  This does not apply only to women, while as only they can birth children, many families abuse the system, too . 

Great!  Then you are in favor of maintaining the overwhelming majority of government assistance to the poor, who do not fall into any of the categories you list.  Glad we agree.

If you decide to copy and modify that sentence to apply to those sick with COVID, make sure your modification accounts for the fact that over 99% of people currently hospitalized with COVID are unvaccinated.

C are the people I have a problem with, and - again - they represent over 99% of people hospitalized with COVID.

What does this even mean?
You're terrible at this game.

You won't ever actually come out and say, "I think poor children should starve," or "I think families on food stamps should have their children confiscated by the state."  At least have the guts to state your solution to the problem.

Ahhhh...back on the "poor people are taking all my money" boo-hooing again, eh?

^ I keep telling him.  He's being duped into thinking he's paying extra taxes for poor people to live for free.  He's paying extra taxes so rich people can get off.  He just doesn't get it.

The top 5% income group pays approximately 60% of all income taxes. The bottom 50% of income group pays approximately 3% of all income taxes. I think the liberals don't get it.

Not trying to disparage D4L in any way, but from a lot of what he has said through the years here, I don't think he is in a very high income bracket.  So I doubt that what he pays in taxes is supporting any "poor people living the good life" as he would say or allowing any rich people to "get off". 

oh I pay plenty of state and federal taxes each year

Ok, my apologies then. 

I am comparing people on government assistance who have and continue to have children with people who choose not to follow protocols.   Both people are irresponsible and force others to pay for it.  Can you fill in the rest of the analogy from there?  You, yourself have stated that one of the main groups of people who receive government assistance have children.  I confirmed this in my original post.  I want you to explain why we should have sympathy for one group, but not the other

The majority of taxes that middle- and lower-income people pay are payroll taxes, not income taxes.  But I guess those don't count!

You only hear rich people (and their defenders) complain about income taxes because payroll taxes are insignificant to the rich, but income taxes are huge.  That's why we have this line about "income taxes" trotted out over and over.

Every person posting on this forum pays "plenty of state and federal taxes."

When talking about poor families with children, we provide them assistance to help the children, who are innocent and may yet become productive adults.

So what is your analogy here for why we should continue to admit unvaccinated COVID patients to hospitals with ICUs at capacity?  If a vaccinated mother of 4 comes in because she's having a severe asthma attack, the bed she needs for care should NOT be already taken by an unvaccinated mother of 4 sick with COVID.

Despite the screeching of the right every time a Democrat is in the White House, we aren't running out of money to help the poor... but we ARE running out of ICU beds to treat the sick.

. I want you to explain this to me.  Trump CUT taxes, not raised them.  Try explaining it to me from a one person perspective with one thousand dollars.  Tell me how a conservative government would tax that money vs a liberal one

. We already are out of money.  We have a national debt.  Edit: no we are not running out of money because we can just keep taxing the working class.  This is where the screeching comes from because people like me work hard for our money and deserve to keep it.  And because it continues to incentivize people not to work and/or improve their lives

.  Was just trying to point out a double standard, thank you very much.   

I don't doubt that, when 50% of the country only pays 3% of the total federal income tax revenue. Hell, their car tag probably costs more than their federal income taxes. Especially with all the millions of people who get back all of their federal income tax withholding in addition to another $5-10K in credits. So in reality, you have people who pay nothing in federal income tax and get paid thousands of dollars for nothing. Thanks for proving my point. But BTW, my federal income taxes have always been higher than any other taxes that I've paid.

Federal, state, and local income taxes are included in payroll taxes. You are the one arguing to enact a unicorn like 90% top federal income tax rate. You can't argue with the factual data, so you're conflating two different thing in an attempt to change the subject, you're not fooling anyone. We're specifically talking about federal income taxes.

Your tax cuts from Trump are temporary.  Under Trump's tax "cut," in 2025 your taxes will go up massively; this was done so that the tax cuts to businesses could be permanent.

If we're "already out of money," how does our military - the largest and most expensive in the world, by far - still exist?
We are obviously not "out" of a currency that we can print at will.

Again, if we could sign a piece of paper and instantly create 10,000 more ICU beds, this would be a different discussion.  But we can't, and America's ICUs are currently full of people who insisted that their liberty was more important than our safety.  So let them enjoy their liberty at home.

35 years ago, we had Ronald Reagan, Johnny Cash and Bob Hope

Today we have Pedo Joe, no cash and no hope

Yeah, I was going to call D4L out on that as he probably pays a lot less than many many people given what he has described his job(s) as on here.  But I just didn't have the emotional energy to get tangled up in a discussion with him about it so I just apologized and let it go.  

Proof? You are not qualified, nor do you have the data to make that claim.

On credit and faith. The more currency you print, the less it's worth. The less it's worth, the more of your devalued currency it takes to buy things. It's a vicious cycle. I'm not religious, but it's funny how you guys on the left make make fun of people having faith in a God. But at the same time you have faith in an inefficient government that debases its own currency. Some of that good ole fashioned liberal hypocrisy at its finest LMFAO

That's because the beds are in demand and there's short supply. The more dollars you print, the higher the supply and the lower the value.

Why should anyone care how much federal income tax they pay, when we both agree they still pay thousands of dollars in OTHER TAXES?

Why is a dollar that a billionaire pays in income tax somehow More Important than a dollar I pay in Medicare tax?

No, they aren't.  Income taxes are not payroll taxes.  Payroll taxes are things like Medicare and SS.
Just because there's a line for income tax withholding on your paystub, that does not make it a "payroll tax."

No, YOU are.  I'm talking about taxes. You're hyper-focused on the one kind of tax borne primarily by the rich, while implying that the rest of us are leeches for "only" paying thousands and thousands of dollars in payroll taxes.

What sort of proof would you be looking for to show that a person paid "plenty" of state and federal taxes?
I'm curious to see you define the minimum dollar amount of "plenty."

...OK?
I'm saying that we should increase the available supply of beds by rejecting some of the demand from people who value their freedom more than our safety.  Enjoy your freedom at home.

Because almost everyone that EARNS income pays those OTHER taxes too one way or the other. But since D4L was talking about freeloaders on the system. Explain to me how people sitting around on unemployment and benefits are paying payroll taxes?

Are you getting a benefit from SS and Medicare payroll taxes? Are you implying that rich people don't pay SS and medicare taxes?

The point is that they are all tax withholdings. If you want to play semantics, play it with your common core classmates tomorrow at school.

Again, everyone pays SS and medicare taxes. Are you actually trying to argue that federal income tax is only for rich people to pay because everyone else pays OTHER taxes that they will eventually receive back in benefits later on? Please tell me you aren't that stupid.

You don't know that every person posting on this forum pays "plenty of state and federal taxes." There could be some people posting here that pay zero in taxes. Could be me, could be you, or it could be anyone else. You don't know anyone's financial and tax situation.

...OK?
Likewise, if you value your safety it's your responsibility to keep yourself safe, not other people's responsibility. You have the freedom to stay at home as well, that's your best bet. Good luck in your quest fine sir.

I'm not implying it; I'm stating it directly.

The only people who pay SS and Medicare taxes are people with earned income (e.g. wages) like you, me, and the rest of the posters on this board.  People with REAL wealth (e.g. billionaires) do not obtain their money as earned income; they obtain it from capital gains, which are not subject to payroll taxes.  And even if some portion of their pay does come from earned income, the maximum earned income that is subject to SS/Medicare taxes is $142,800; any earned income over that amount is exempt from payroll taxes.

Great example, since unemployment is a benefit that you pay into when working.  You cannot receive unemployment if you haven't worked.

There is one class of Americans who are receiving benefits that they definitely didn't pay into: children.  But I doubt that even you would be shameless enough to make the argument that a child should not receive food that they didn't personally earn.

I agree!  So why are you acting like paying federal income tax is somehow More Important than paying plain old payroll taxes?  Why do you drone on endlessly about the portion of federal income taxes paid by rich people while ignoring that the overwhelming majority of payroll taxes are paid by middle- and lower-income Americans?

This question makes it seem like you believe that rich Americans don't receive anything in exchange for their tax dollars; please tell me YOU aren't that stupid.  Because every billionaire I've seen makes use of public roads and public airports, to say nothing of the rest of our government.

If you are an adult in America, and you participate in society enough to be on the internet, it is impossible for you to pay "zero in taxes."

If you believe this, then you shouldn't be asking other people to take care of you in a hospital.
Live your stated values.

In fact, let me expound on this dishonest BS:


You and yours love to make these mouth noises about, "You should do what YOU think is appropriate to keep YOURSELF safe."  But that's a lie; you don't believe it.  Because the moment that businesses say, "Well, OK, we think we are kept safe by only doing business with customers who are masked and/or vaccinated," y'all start screaming bloody murder about how YOUR rights are being infringed if YOU aren't allowed to ride on a cruise ship while unvaccinated.  So we're not even allowed to keep ourselves safe from you!

Your idea of freedom is always nothing more than "I do what I want, and YOU do what I want."  But what else would you expect from the same people who opposed gay marriage?

If a wealthy person pays SS/Medicare taxes on $142,800, then they've paid their share and more than people in the bottom 50% pay. In the case of someone not paying into SS/Medicare, they won't receive benefits if they don't have enough credits.

Who ever said they never worked? We're talking about people gaming the system. Funny how you think that the evil rich people are the only one's in the world who are greedy and game the system. Those type people are on all ends of the spectrum.

Here we go with the stereotypical liberal talking points. "Oh, what about the poor children" LMFAO, you can't shame me with your nonsense. As mentioned before, if you're so worried about poor people and children. You and all the rest of the bleeding heart liberals feel free to give away any possessions you own. Put your money where your mouth is. I choose to make my own decisions regarding my possessions.

Because payroll taxes are paid back out in benefits. If you don't pay them, you don't get benefits.

Everyone gets to use the roads and airports even if they pay zero taxes.

Yeah, ok bud. Are you on acid?

I don't go to the hospital and ask anyone to take care of me. I'll pay them to take care of me. Last I saw, healthcare was a for profit business in the US. Or haven't you noticed.

I don't have a right to shop at any private business. If they want me to leave, I'll go somewhere else. Seems that I remember that there were some gay people screaming bloody murder about how their rights were being infringed because they couldn't have some cake or some such childish nonsense. But then again, that's just the type of hypocritical bullshit you spout everyday. As far as I'm concerned, no one has a right to make someone else do business with them.

I don't oppose gay marriage. If you're into that type shit, go find you a dude and have at it. It's none of my business what kind of strange shit people do in their personal life. However, homosexuality is a behavior and I am allowed to have an opinion when someone broadcasts their abnormal behaviors in public.

Can management please start a new forum for just Spider and Pondwater?

Put us in the octagon on the undercard of my hypothetical Tebow/Kaepernick PPV fight so we can beat the shit out of each other, haha

In terms of Republican tax cuts for businesses and the rich, businesses earn their money.  So do the rich.  Isn't permitting people to keep the money they earned a good thing?  Nobody has demonstrated to me yet how I am hurting myself by voting Republican.

This proves that I am correct when I say many people on disability are cheating the system https://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/120516/social-security-fraud-what-it-costing-taxpayers.asp#:~:text=Collectively%20these%20frauds%20cost%20the%20U.S.%20government%20and,disability%20benefits%20the%20person%20is%20not%20entitled%20to. (https://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/120516/social-security-fraud-what-it-costing-taxpayers.asp#:~:text=Collectively%20these%20frauds%20cost%20the%20U.S.%20government%20and,disability%20benefits%20the%20person%20is%20not%20entitled%20to.)     

I do understand Spider's response to my comparison about irresponsible people who sponge, and irresponsible people who get COVID.  For the former group, we can continue to take money from hard working people to pay for it, whereas for the  latter group, we can't keep taking hospital beds.  This drives me further to right. 

It was Obama who created this entitlement and welfare state through his policies.  I wonder, during the Bush administration, where there any headlines that read "FAMIY DROPS DEAD FROM STARVATION" popping up across the country?  I didn't see any.  I think Spider's starving thing is an exaggeration.  First off people, with families and children can work and find jobs and earn money.  Second, there are food pantries and soup kitchens where people can go if they truly need assistance with food.     Now permit me to expand my metaphor..  If a person is having trouble finding work, but genuinely trying, or if a singe mother works thirty or so hours a week, but still cannot support her children, I don't have any problem with giving those people some assistance.  Similar to how Spider probably wouldn't have a problem with giving a hospital bed to somebody who followed the protocols, but caught COVID.   However, if a family is receiving benefits and chooses to keep having offspring and forcing the taxpayers to keep paying for them, or if somebody receiving ssi can work and not receive it but chooses not to work because they'd rather receive the benefits, or if a woman who was born into benefits decides to have a child and because of that they get more assistance, THAT I am going to have a problem with, similar how Spider has a problem with people who don't obey protocols getting hospital beds.

The link you provided describes fraud and other illegal abuses of the system.
So let's clarify, here: which of the following groups are you talking about?

a) criminals who are committing fraud to receive benefits that they are not legally eligible for
or
b) people lawfully applying for and receiving benefits that they are legally eligible for, but that you believe are too generous

If you're talking about A, I would guess everyone on this forum agrees that they should be arrested and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
If you're talking about B, the link you provided is completely irrelevant.

So you have a problem with poor families receiving assistance if they aren't trying hard enough.
Do you have a problem with unvaccinated people filling up ICU beds, as they are right now?

You bet I have a problem with unvaccinated people overloading our system.  I was merely pointing out the similarities in the 2 situations.  We sort of got sidetracked by that.   What do you mean by not trying hard enough in the other scenario?  Edit do you have a problem with giving a hospital bed to somebody who is vaccinated and abided by the CDC recommendations.   

 On a side note, if I was able to be on social security from birth, can you imagine what a dream life that is.  I'd go in school in the first grade and brag to everybody.   

Just for the record: I do not agree that those that denied the vaccine should be denied medical care.  That's cruel, IMO.  It's also not about teaching people a lesson.  I want to encourage the vaccine for the betterment of all us...not so I can be right.  I think there's an element of "I told you so" that I'm trying to stay away from.

As for social security from birth, that's something progressives are pushing for.  You would have govt. payouts as a minor, then pay into it during your working years, then get payouts when you're old.  ...fighting child poverty, leveling the playing field for kids in poor areas, etc, so they have a fair shot to be productive in society, etc.

These are fully grown adults making adult decisions? If someone would rather die than get the vaccine, there is no "I told you so". They already knew the risks. And the bigger issue is that it's nobody's business.

Wouldn't the deadbeat parents find a way to get their hands on the payouts. Children aren't competent with money. Please explain this further, sounds like a bad idea.

Good news, everyone!  This totally genuine and sincere concern has been resolved (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/nbc-news-poll-shows-demographic-breakdown-vaccinated-u-s-n1277514):

So who's been vaccinated in the United States? And who hasn't?

Well, our most recent NBC News poll (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/meet-the-press/biden-s-job-ratings-decline-amid-covid-surge-afghanistan-withdrawal-n1277368) sheds some light on those question, with the survey finding that 69 percent of all adults say they've already been vaccinated, versus 13 percent saying they won't get vaccinated under any circumstance.

And here are the American adults who say they've already been vaccinated - broken down by demographic group:

All adults: 69 percent
Men: 67 percent
Women: 71 percent
18-34: 63 percent
35-49: 58 percent
50-64: 71 percent
65+: 86 percent
Whites: 66 percent
Blacks: 76 percent
Latinos: 71 percent
Urban residents: 79 percent
Suburban residents: 67 percent
Rural residents: 52 percent
White evangelicals: 59 percent
Democrats: 88 percent
Independents: 60 percent
Republicans: 55 percent
Republicans who support Trump more than party: 46 percent
Republicans who support party more than Trump: 62 percent
Democratic Sanders-Warren voters: 88 percent
Democratic Biden voters: 87 percent
Biden voters in 2020 general election: 91 percent
Trump voters in 2020 general election: 50 percent
White non-college grads: 60 percent
White college grads: 80 percent

---

So those who were simulating Great Concern about the hordes of unvaccinated minorities in this country can now turn that concern towards white people, right?  I mean, if you're going to insist that vaccine hesitancy is a racial issue and not a political ideology issue, you should keep that same energy when white Americans are the least vaccinated.