The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I am not very familiar with the Football Hall of Fame, more of a baseball guy when it comes to stats. So, can anyone explain to me why Zach is still not in Canton? Is there a statistical argument to be made to keep him out or a personal one? Because we are to the point that Brady and Manning are vouching for him and I know lesser guys are getting in.

He has the stats and he's been supported by HOfer Kevin Mawae, Manning and even Brady. It's just voters not putting him in. These people

Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee
Arizona   Kent Somers, Arizona Republic
Atlanta   Darryl Ledbetter, Atlanta Journal - Constitution
Baltimore   Scott Garceau, 105.7 The Fan/WMAR-TV
Buffalo   Vic Carucci, WGRZ-TV
Carolina   Darin Gantt, Carolina Panthers
Chicago   Dan Pompei, The Athletic*
Cincinnati   Geoff Hobson, Bengals.com
Cleveland   Tony Grossi, ESPNCleveland.com/WKNR Radio
Dallas   Rick Gosselin, Talk of Fame Network*#
Denver   Jeff Legwold, ESPN/ESPN.com*
Detroit   Dave Birkett, Detroit Free Press
Green Bay   Pete Dougherty, Green Bay Press-Gazette
Houston   John McClain, Houston Chronicle*
Indianapolis   Mike Chappell, Fox 59/CBS 4
Jacksonville   Sam Kouvaris, SamSportsLine.com
Kansas City   Vahe Gregorian, Kansas City Star
Las Vegas   Frank Cooney, The Sports Xchange*
Los Angeles (Chargers)   Eric Williams, Sports Illustrated
Los Angeles (Rams)   Howard Balzer, Sports Illustrated#
Miami   Armando Salguero, Outkick.com
Minnesota   Mark Craig, The Minneapolis Star-Tribune
New England   Ron Borges, Talk of Fame Network*
New Orleans   Jeff Duncan, Times-Picayune
New York (Giants)   Bob Glauber, Newsday
New York (Jets)   Gary Myers, Author
Philadelphia   Paul Domowitch, the33rdteam.com/PhillyMag.com
Pittsburgh   Ed Bouchette, The Athletic
San Francisco   Matt Maiocco, CSNBayArea.com
Seattle   Mike Sando, The Athletic
Tampa Bay   Ira Kaufman, JoeBucsFan.com*
Tennessee   Paul Kuharsky, PaulKuharsky.com/Outkick360
Washington   Jarrett Bell, USA Today#
PFWA   Lindsay Jones, The Athletic
At-Large   Mary Cay Cabot, Cleveland Plain Dealer
At-Large   John Clayton, ESPN Seattle#
At-Large   Jason Cole, FanSided.com
At-Large   John Czarnecki, FOX Sports*
At-Large   Tony Dungy, NBC Sports Football Night in America (Hall of Famer)
At-Large   Dan Fouts, Broadcaster (Hall of Famer)
At-Large   Clark Judge, Talk of Fame Network
At-Large   Peter King, NBC Sports#
At-Large   James Lofton, CBS Sports (Hall of Famer)
At-Large   Alex Marvez, SiriusXM
At-Large   Bill Polian, SiriusXM (Hall of Famer)*
At-Large   Sal Paolantonio, ESPN#
At-Large   Lisa Salters, ESPN Monday Night Football
At-Large   Jim Trotter, NFL Network#
At-Large   Charean Williams, Pro Football Talk#
At-Large   Barry Wilner, Associated Press

So it's Armando's fault

Not that I necessarily agree with the logic, but the fact that Zach was the second-best defensive player on a team that never made it past the divisional round (and didn't even make the playoffs for the majority of his career) will make it difficult for him to get in.

Miami's defense in the Zach-JT era was good, but not dominating.  Without his DPOY, JT would probably have had a hard time getting in, too.

I happen to agree with that logic.  The second or third best player on a crap team is good, maybe even great but not HoF.

Also there is only 5 slots.  The other 5 are all more worthy.  It isn't just a matter of being good enough to make it, you must be better than the other candidates.

On that note, guys who think their play has made them HOF worthy may be wise to put off retirement for at least a year.   If they retire this year, they will be competing against Tom Brady, Ben Roethlisberger, and quite possibly Rob Gronkowski when 2027 rolls around.   That's three of the five slots right there.

HoF worthy or first-year-of-eligibility worthy?  Brady is the only one that is a lock for 2027, the others could wind up it the queue.  All three are going in but maybe not in 2027.  If you are not as good as those two you are going to behind those two in the queue if you retire this year or the next. 

Gronk is a lock as well.  He's broken a few of Tony Gonzalez's records for a TE as well as the QB/Receiver TD pass record in the postseason.

When other HOFers say they had to game plan around you and that you were the toughest opponent they faced then it doesn't matter how bad your team is. His stats are there and so is his references.

Big difference between needing to game plan for a player and your game plan effectively stops them allowing you to win and being unable to game plan for a player.  Most teams that played against ZT were able to neutralize him. 

Which of the 5 that got in are unworthy?

Neutralize him? I guess his stats just happened to appear from the few teams he had succcess against? Hoodie that isn't a smart comment at all.

Like I said ...  when you are considered the toughest opponent a HOFer faces then you're pretty damned tough unless all those other guys he faced were candy asses.

Kevin Mawae at his own HOF induction ...

“Zach Thomas was my nemesis,” said Mawae, who played 16 seasons for the Seattle Seahawks, New York Jets and Tennessee Titans. “My first year with the Jets before the first game we played each other, [coach] Bill Parcells told me in front of my entire team, ‘If you don’t block Thomas, we won’t win the game.’ And for the next 16 matchups, I never forgot that.

“Zach was one of — if not the smartest — players I ever faced,” said Mawae, an eight-time Pro Bowl center. “He loved the game, had fun when he played and brought the best out in me. When people ask me, ‘Who is not in the Hall of Fame that I think should be?’ — it’s easy for me, number 54 from the Miami Dolphins.”

Unfortunately, Zach doesn't have enough former opponents on the selection committee to get in via their high opinion of him.  (The total number of Zach's opponents on the selection committee currently stands at 0.)

So his problem is, and will likely continue to be, that:

1) his teams were not successful
2) the defenses he was on were not consistently dominant
3) he did not win DPOY

If you don’t block ZT we won’t win the game…… we won the game ….. therefore ZT was blocked.

Also the question in front of the voters was NOT “should ZT be in the hall?”. the question was “Which 5 of these guys deserve it the most?”

So it turns out that of players who did not play pre-merger, there are exactly three defensive players in the HOF who did not win DPOY or play in a Super Bowl:

1) Derrick Thomas, who died at age 33 (while still in the league) from complications after a car accident
2) John Randle, who retired t-5th in career sacks
3) Sam Mills, who literally just made the HOF this year

Derrick Thomas' induction was a special case of an athlete who died unexpectedly while still active.  Zach has a lot of tackles, but tackles are not as sexy as sacks or interceptions, which is why Randle is in.  And Sam Mills is himself a very borderline case for induction, which is why it took over two decades for him to get in!

The list of every NFL player with 5 First-Team All-Pro selections and 1,500 career tackles:

• Ray Lewis*
• Junior Seau*
• Derrick Brooks*
• Zach Thomas

*Hall of Famer

Sam mills
Tony Boselli
Richard Seymour

The HoFs also were each DPOY and on superbowl teams.

Similarly:

The list of every NFL player with 5 First-Team All-Pro selections and 1,500 career tackles who has played in a Super Bowl:

• Ray Lewis*
• Junior Seau*
• Derrick Brooks*

*Hall of Famer

The fact that none of Zach's teams did anything in the playoffs hurts him.  A lot.  Without a DPOY or Super Bowl appearance, Zach will need a Hail Mary to get in.  But Sam Mills just got one, so it's not hopeless!

Yeah so then the question becomes, what are the criteria for admission to the HoF?  Apparently it's something different than just individual talent and achievement, because 5 first-team all-pro selections is quite the distinctive indicator of individual talent and achievement.  I suspect there is variation among the HoF voters regarding the criteria for admission.  Some of them are functioning with certain primary criteria in mind, while others are functioning with other primary criteria in mind.  Consequently there are inconsistencies among the players admitted and not admitted.

I am certain there is variation in the voters on what is the most important criteria for admission, just as different voters have different criteria for elected officials. 

In my opinion individual stats do matter, but so does the issue of whether those stat led to something greater.  Yippy, you ran a fumble back for a TD with 30 seconds in the game.  But if all it did was change your losing score from 24-0 to 24-7 was it really that meaningful of a fumble recovery or just an empty stat.

If you are a dominating player on an otherwise crap team, yeah you can make the HoF.  JT did.

But most teams don’t have two hall of fame quality defensive players.  Those teams that do have dominating defenses. Dolphins never had a dominating defense. Baltimore Ravens sending two or more defensive players from that era to the HoF - absolutely.  Dolphins- no.

A hall of fame player is someone who made a significant impact on the game.  ZT collect some stats but is largely a forgettable player.

As your former VP said, “you are what your record says you are” If JT and ZT was so great why weren’t the defenses they played on? How can some one claim Marino was the greatest QB ever and Shula was the greatest coach ever that could “beat ya with his then beat ya with yours” when he couldn’t beat ya with Marino as his QB? Great people accomplishment great things.  Yeah, you can have one great player held back by others.  But a team of multiple hall of famers doesn’t go 1-15.

Right, but there is probably some simple math we can do here consisting of nothing other than the probability of a player's earning 5 all-pro selections during his career (number of players with that distinction, divided by the number of NFL players in history), in comparison to the probability of a player's being admitted to the HoF (number of players in the HoF, divided by the number of NFL players in history).  I suspect the latter probability would be comparable to the former, which would raise legitimate questions about why Thomas hasn't been admitted.  I mean if players are distinguishing themselves via achievements that are about as improbable as HoF admissions, then you have to wonder why they haven't been admitted.

I think the DPOY that those three have is a major distinction.  It is one thing to be judged as either the best or second best player at your position (2 middle linebackers are selected) as opposed to being the single best defensive player.  

As earlier stated different people have different criteria, but lets say we had two players and all we know is:  

Player A: 1x DPOY, 3x All-Pro

Player B: 0 DPOY, 5x All-Pro

I am going to vote player A without hesitation.  Yes, player B had 5 standout years vs 3.  But player A had a year where he was THE MAN.  And one year of absolutely the best is worth more than 3 years of being among the very best.

I doubt there are many players with any one  of the following honors: league MVP, OPOY, DPOY that aren’t in the hall, unless they had one good year and that is all. And that is one of things that makes those three different from Zach.  

This was one of the best opportunities he had to make it - none of the players were first year eligibles, and most of the inductees had been nominated many times. Seymore had been eligible for 5 years, the rest 10 or more.

It makes me wonder if there will be less first year eligible inductees in future?

All are HOF worthy, but I think Brady would be the only one guaranteed straight in first year being eligible. Gronk would be a big maybe depending on who else is around - although I think the bromance of having the two going in the same year would be there...

Big Ben on the other hand I reckon will have to wait a few years - his off field incidents over his career, and his last two years of quite poor play aren't going to do him any favors. Plus I just can't see him being elected the same year as Brady.