The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Seems like there has largely been bipartisan condemnation of the Russian invasion, though there are some notable exceptions like Trump.  Hard to imagine any outcome here other than Russia simply absorbing Ukraine.  Putin's speech earlier this week appears to indicate that he would like to restore the borders of the (pre-Soviet) Russian Empire; this is essentially impossible unless NATO dissolves.

Ukraine's president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy, has rejected offers for safe passage out of Ukraine.  He is likely a high-priority target for capture and execution.  If there is a future with an independent Ukraine, he will probably be considered a founding father-type figure, not unlike Nelson Mandela in South Africa.  He is certainly showing a lot of courage by remaining.

This whole thing is a scary situation for so many reasons.

First and foremost is the welfare of the people of Ukraine - they did not ask for this war, but Dictator Presdent Putin made up a bullshit excuse to invade with a view to overthrow a genuine democratically elected Government for a puppet one of his own. Putin basically telegraphed what he was going to do, massing up to 140,000 troops around three flanks of Ukraine with the help of a compliant Belarus. This was always going to be a strike towards the capital Kyiv and changing the fabric of the country, yet few seemed to believe he had the balls to do something so brazen - it just goes to show how clueless some "experts" really are... Today the former President of Ukraine (Poroshenko, the one who Putin actually backed before he lost the last election) had a video of himself arming up to fight for the country, along with the current President (Zelenskyy). Former foes are freedom fighters, it's that desperate in Kyiv already, in the space of just a few days.

Ukraine had hinted about wishing to become a NATO country, but because they hadn't they are basically on their own, exposed without additional military help - in short, they'll put up a fight, but they're screwed. They are set up as a sacrificial lamb with the hope that Putin will not advance beyond their borders. Neighboring NATO countries (like Poland and Romania) won't do anything except supply weapons and aid, plus take refugees, while fortifying their own borders in case he tries to extend beyond Ukraine. Moldova isn't so lucky, they're not a NATO signatory, they already have a Russian presence in their east (Transnistria) and are already looking at the possibility that they're next... if push comes to shove, I'd bet they will roll over without much of a fight. It may not make much difference anyway - there's another Russian territory Kaliningrad, lying between Lithuania and Poland. Putin can use the same bullshit lie that this region is being subject to genocide/separation from Russia as a flashpoint, and send the military in. One of the Russian tanks driving through Chernobyl today had an old Soviet/U.S.S.R. flag hoisted high above the canopy, and more than a few are guessing that's Putin's real ambition...

There is so much that is scarily mirroring the build up of World War II, like Putin accusing the west of being "war mongers" in a massive disinformation campaign just like Hitler did before the shit hit the fan. Economic sanctions so far have done nothing, yet the West seems powerless to act until Russia sets foot in a NATO country... and by then it may be way too late. Already Putin has hinted at the use of Nuclear weapons in the event of any foreign resistance to his actions... and then there's China, with their own ambition...

They are one of the few significant voices not calling out Russia on the Ukraine invasion for good reason. They have basically gone about changing Hong Kong's political system to a puppet one, in the process defying the handover by the British, while the West seemed powerless to do anything about it. Next on their list of the "One China" dream of their Dictator President, is the assimilation of Taiwan. They have already simulated war exercises in Taiwan airspace (sound vaguely familiar?). NATO and the rest of the West being caught guessing about what's happening in the aftermath of Ukraine gives them the perfect opportunity to strike while they are distracted. China has already carried out major cyber attacks in the West, pissed on free trade agreements and hitched up tariffs to try and cripple other nations economies, while trying to bribe/bully other vulnerable nations in the Pacific region to gain support.

Where does it go from here? Who knows, but I'm guessing it can't be good. The really annoying thing about this is that the West allowed it to happen in the last 20 years, all in the name of greed and "globalization" (corporate for greed). Dealing with these Tyrants with fake democracies and nuclear capabilities in the vain hope that capitalism would somehow dull/warp their lust for blood and power has failed - it has only done the opposite. They appear (at least in their own minds) richer, stronger, more vicious and twisted, and convinced the West has been weakened/compromised while boosting their own coffers. Russia & China right now think that together they are powerful enough not to give a shit about what anyone else in the world does, and look like they're willing to show it.

Oh, and Trump can go fuck himself.  

Ps. On second thought I'll reserve my judgement of the footage of Poroshenko arming up until after the conflict is over - if by some coincidence Zelenskyy is captured/killed and somehow Poroshenko winds up as Ukraine's President again with Putin's blessing, then you know this was another diabolical setup and he is the puppet Putin wants there.

When Trump first became President, he met with Putin and when they shook hands, Trump pulled Putin close with such force and whispered in his ear that he'd better not fuck around with Ukraine or anyone else.  Had the election been counted truthfully, Trump would still be in office and this would never have happened.   As it is, Biden is showing the entire world what a fucking pussified leader he is.   

You are referring to the same Donald Trump that withheld Congress-apportioned defense funding aid from Ukraine, in order to pressure them to manufacture dirt on Joe Biden... the guy that ended up beating him in the election.

If Trump were in office today, the US would not only be opposing international sanctions against Russia, but the Trump Administration would be cheering Putin on.  You can tell because right now, Trump is cheering Putin on!

If Trump were in office today, this shit over in Ukraine would not be happening.   And I can see why Trump is secretly cheering Putin on.  Putin  is proving to the world how pathetically weak Biden is

The same Donald Trump who kissed Putin's ass continually after he helped get him elected in the first place via the Russian cyber attacks in the 2016 election.

The same Donald Trump who while in office proposed weakening the USA contribution to NATO, making Putin's march through Europe so much easier.

When Trump first became President, he met with Putin and when they shook hands, Trump pulled Putin close with such force and whispered in his ear that he'd better not fuck around with Ukraine or anyone else   "Thanks buddy! Let me know if there's anything you want or need. I owe you."

If Trump was in office today, he would have taken absolutely no action in regard to the invasion of Ukraine. No sanctions, no support, nothing.

As Spidey mentioned, he'd likely be opposing the European led sanctions against Russia.

That's bullshit.  And coming from a guy whose country will go on lockdown when there is one positive COVID case, I'm not surprised. 

Speaking of bullshit, the poor animal must have been backed up in agony for days if not weeks before that massive one dropped out!

Getting back to the topic at hand, I actually agree with you that Biden is a weak leader. However I disagree that Trump would have realistically done much if anything more under the circumstances (for reasons previously mentioned). The ridiculous idea that Putin would never have invaded if Trump was still in power (because of a handshake and secret whisper) is not even worth discussing.

Western intelligence basically knew of the Russian build up in Belarus for months (stretching back to last year). They could have sent arms (but not troops) to help bolster Ukraine any time between then and the invasion to prepare, but dithered. By the time they started sending air defense missiles to Kyiv it was too little, way too late.

Successive governments (of all sides) have literally let Putin get away with murder - from the Georgia war, the annexation of Crimea and the downing of Malaysian Airline Flight 17 with Russian hardware, the poisoning of British citizens when he targeted Sergei and Yulia Skripal on UK soil. Reactions to these events have been pathetically inadequate.

It's with this background that Putin thinks he can get away with such a violation of human decency - because he has in the past with no real consequences.

First of all, there's nothing "secret" about how Trump is cheering Putin on.  It's in full view of the public.

Second, it almost sounds like you believe that Trump wouldn't support a Russian invasion of Ukraine if he were still in the White House.  But this can't be true, because if it were, that would mean that Trump understands that the Russian invasion is against America's best interest, but is cynically rooting for it just because he thinks it makes Biden look bad.

In effect, what you are saying is the equivalent of one of us on the left openly admitting that we were only against the white nationalists at Charlottesville because we thought it would hurt Trump, but if Hillary had won we would have been cheering them on.  It's a pretty clownish thing to say.

Ironically, there is (potentially) some merit to the claim that Putin would not have invaded if Trump had won a second term.  Given how easily Putin has been able to handle Trump, and the fact that an invasion of Ukraine would have solidified NATO and galvanized the West's opposition (as it has now), Putin's better play would have been to continue manipulating Trump to undermine NATO from within, hopefully destroying the entire alliance... at which point Putin could have done what he wanted.

Putin's decision to move forward with this invasion indicates that, to at least some degree, he no longer has faith in Trump's future ability to significantly cripple NATO.

never thought I would be quoting a Cheney……

"All Americans should renounce this garbage and reject the Putin wing of the GOP now,"

LMAO ... it's over. It doesn't seem like you've been paying attention to news outsdie of watching the View but a non partisan investigation has shown that Clinton people manuafctured what little evivence they pretended to have. The Rusian link, collusion, or whatever was faked. HAHAHA.

And Trump only said calling Putin's justification for sending troops into Ukrainian territory "savvy" and "genius."

Hegseth said on the Fox show "Jesse Watters Primetime:" "Here's the reality, Vladimir Putin lives rent-free in the minds of our media, of the American media. No organism, no entity has done more to spread Russian propaganda and to prop up the strawman that is Vladimir Putin than our very own media."

"And Donald Trump was happy to troll them on it, as he continues to do to this moment," Hegseth continued. "Because they can't resist it, and they'll obsess over it."

LOL ... this thread certainly proves that. It's pretty shitty what Putin is doing and we are allowing it but somehow Trump is more of a topic. Seems like logic would eventually win over a few of you.

There's a war going on and all you dipshits want to talk about its Donald Trump.  

*Any major event* "How is this pro/anti Trump?"

Pathetic.

I'm pretty proud of our response, as the US, but also the world response.  I still think we can do more with sanctions and stuff.  I hope everyone in the world clamps down on them.

We'll take a financial hit for it, but I think this is the kind of thing worth fighting for -- the democracy of a free state is good for them, good for us, good for the world -- you can't just let them get bowled over to a dictator.

The first two posters in this thread barely even mentioned Trump, but naturally, y'all skip past pages of commentary and laser focus in on any mention of Dear Leader's name.

So as usual, it's the conservatives here that jumped in to defend Trump's honor and insist that He Would Have Prevented This War.  Similarly, you yourself have nothing at all to say about the war; the only comment you have is to criticize us for badmouthing your leader.

If you want to talk about the war, then talk about it.  (It's literally the topic of this thread!)  Or you can withhold commentary altogether!  But no one is forcing you to jump in and simp for Trump.

Also, Trump made himself relevant, here.  Russia invades another country, against the good of the whole world and Trump makes it a point to praise Putin.  I mean...that's not an accident.  A former President praising a dictator invading an ally is so completely fucking bonkers that I don't know where we are anymore, but whatever.


Anyway, on to the topic of Ukraine, I do think it's hopeful how in lockstep pretty much all of the world is regarding this being a shitty move and that there have to be consequences.  But I do think that Russia will prevail militarily and I don't see them backing off.  He had to know this was coming and he can settle in.  He's lying to his own people and can control the narrative, so it'll be hard to break through that and turn the majority of his people (and those with money and power) against him.

He really just needs to be wiped out.

That is not even close to true.  The actual allegation is that most of  the people who provided the information about the Trump - Russian connection supported Clinton and opposed Trump.  Which is about as shocking as finding out that most of the people who provided information to Ken Starr didn't like Bill Clinton.  But your right wing spin sources spun it for you.

A better analogy would be if Al Gore on September 12, issued a statement praising OBL, claiming the attacks would not have happened on his watch and stating that this proves Bush is a weak ineffective leader. 

Us and Europe are still payng the Russian govornement over 1 billion dollars a day for fuel while we are putting sanctions that criple their citizens. Seems like there has to be a better way. 

Long term there is a much better way….short term not so much.

The PENTAGON for decades has been calling on the US to increase our renewable (solar, wind, hydro etc.) to reduce our dependence on foreign energy sources.  But republicans have blocked this because as much as they claim to be pro-military they are more strongly anti-environment than anything else.

I have been screaming into this megahorn since 2008: switching to renewables (primarily solar and wind) and electric vehicles is not only good for the environment, it also reduces the amount of money we send off to reprehensible foreign dictatorships and helps preserve our oil resources (for durable goods like plastics) so that those guys use up their oil first.

But those libs aren't going to own themselves!  So instead, we drill and run through our own oil, while still allowing people like Putin and the Saudis to hold us hostage with oil prices.

In better news, I'm getting solar panels!

I thought I would when we bought our new house but it isn't worth it. My new electric company is a co-op so it's really inexpensive comparatively speaking. I was looking to do the whole shingle thing.  

I do not envy the decisions that Biden has to make.  Everything has huge downsides and you just don't know what Putin could do.

I completely understand just wanting to send UN jets in to destroy that entire convoy.  But that could start WW3.
I completely understand wanting to avoid WW3 by staying out of it, but then you could watch a democratic nation get slaughtered by a tyrant.

The middle ground of providing support plus financial pain is understandable too...but that could last a really long, long time.

Putin could be a crazy person.  We just don't know how far he could go.

I even feel sorry for the Russian soldiers.  They don't seem to know what the hell is going on, either.  My god...what a shitfest.  You just can't afford to have huge countries with a nuclear arsenal controlled by a single man ad infinitum.

As one of his biggest critics, there really isn't much Biden can do about this other than sanctions.

If WW3 starts, one of the first nations to get slaughtered will be Ukraine.

You don't take direct action against Russian assets in Ukraine, period.

Making up complete bullshit like this to personally attack someone on the forum doesn't help you with your your argument.

It's a classic damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario.

Ukraine is such an important country to Russia if you look at it in a purely military scale - the naval ports to the south that don't freeze over in winter, and the direct route to the south of western Europe opens up future points of attack. Without them the only direct routes are through Belarus and northern Russia, the really long way around. In short, I just can't see Putin stopping until Ukraine is under his full control.

There has now been so much support from the west for Ukraine's fight, lethal aid as well as non-lethal, and the sanctions will be beginning to bite. Putin and his friends will personally be losing billions of dollars each week this conflict is extended - this is the most dangerous man in the world who will have a huge personal grudge, and we have seen in the past how he has reacted. With lethal, illegal and immoral force. Quite simply, the west just cannot allow Ukraine to fall. 

Downunder Dolphan, you might be out of the loop, but conservatives in America believe that Australia (COVID deaths per million: 202.9) has been a complete failure on COVID, while the state of Florida (COVID deaths per million: 3270.7) is an inspiring COVID success story.  There isn't really much you can say to convince them otherwise.

I wouldn't agree that we "cannot allow" Ukraine to fall; as undesirable as it may be, it's not worth starting WW3 over.  But I think it's clear that as long as Putin controls Kyiv, Russia's economy will be absolutely crippled and Russia will be a pariah on the world stage.  Or, as others have put it:

(http://viperbeam.com/forum/19thcenturyrussia.png)

I'm fully aware of what US conservatives think - I get my news from a lot of different sources to make an informed judgement, unlike what someone here says of me...  ;)

The awful question no one wants to openly talk about is whether things have gone beyond the tipping point and WW3 is inevitable. If that's the case, then it's vital that Ukraine stays out of Russia's grasp for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

No one in the west wants WW3, and all the moves to date have been tiptoeing around that - hoping that Russia wouldn't invade, and now hoping that Russia withdraws without committing NATO troops. If Putin is as unhinged as we fear, it mightn't matter.

If WW3 happens, it doesn't really matter if Ukraine "falls" to Russia, as most of eastern Europe, northern Asia, and North America will be radioactive glass.

Very true, if it degenerates to a nuclear conflict and China gets involved.

There's still the possibility it will primarily remain as conventional warfare in Europe, in which case that territory may matter.

How funny that since this conflict began, there has been zero talk of COVID cases or fear of new outbreaks.

That line would work a little better if you guys weren't previously claiming that everyone would forget about COVID as soon as Biden took office.

People aren't talking as much about COVID now because we are on the downswing of the Omicron variant outbreak.  But if there's another variant outbreak, don't worry... y'all will still be insisting that there's nothing to see here and this is not a big deal, even when we have over 2000 people dying from COVID daily.

On the bright side, the existence of this war has also put a pause on Republicans screaming that a wave of immigrants is ready to storm our southern border, and has also apprarently reduced the grave threat to our republic raised by Critical Race Theory.  Funny how a major war focuses the discourse, isn't it?

Seeing this unfold makes me so angry that I'd back pretty much any crazy shit to stop it, against better judgement.

I don't want to start WW3 obviously, but WW3 isn't the world vs. Russia.  They'd have to have other countries join on to fight -- namely China, N. Korea.

Why have NATO if not to stop stuff like this?  Part of me just wants to go in while Russia's forces are stuck out of the country and blow up all of Moscow.

To stop nuclear wars.

The purpose of NATO was never to end all war; we've had several wars since NATO was formed.  NATO does serve to constrain wars of conquest, but it doesn't prevent all wars of conquest everywhere in the world.

NATO is an alliance. Attacking a single NATO county is an attack on all.  Ukraine is not in NATO. 

Sadly, it is quite possible that this is Putin's Chezvica and WWIII begins in Europe the same way as WWII with the invasion of Poland.

Be careful Dave. You’re sounding like a conservative now. Haha Just kidding but I’m right there with you. We need special forces to take control of their nukes before we can do anything like that. Putin doesn’t have long to live so he’s crazy enough yo use them.

I don't know if it's smart to cut off gas from there or not.  As long as it hurts them a lot worse than it hurts you, I guess it's worth it.  I'm just so angry that I'm willing to sacrifice.

Had Biden not put the brakes on American oil production, we wouldn't be hurting

What brakes did Biden put on American oil production?

Bullshit.  Where do you come up with this shit?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/27/biden-suspends-oil-and-gas-drilling-in-series-of.html

Enough said.

Those pipelines may make a difference in the future but that was for new drilling that wouldn't take effect for years.  It's completely unrelated to anything you're experiencing now, which was set in motion pre-COVID (during Trump, though not Trump's fault) and will get worse due to the Russia boycott.

Direct quote:

Biden’s orders direct the secretary of the Interior Department to halt new oil and natural gas leases on public lands and waters, and begin a thorough review of existing permits for fossil fuel development.

Furthermore: (https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/597228-gas-prices-spike-as-support-for-russian-oil-ban-appears-to-grow)

The U.S. currently has more than 9,000 unused oil and gas leases, although making use of those leases would not immediately start oil flowing from them. The number of American oil rigs has more than doubled since July 2020, from 172 to 519 as of last week. The number remains significantly below the 800 rigs recorded in 2019, however.

So it turns out that the number of American oil rigs was cut from 800 in 2019 to only 172 in July of 2020.  If only we could figure out who was president then...

They have leases on land that doesn't have oil and they have leases on land where they can't get drilling permits. It's a semantic argument from the left but you can belive it if you want to. If you actually care to look you will see it is BS political fodder and absolute lies.

The argument from the left is that drilling for more oil here isn't smart -- it isn't a good idea to waste our reserves to drive cars.  We need to use less for cars, and then use our reserves for products, like rubber and things like that.

Our whole strategy is different than the right.  Our energy dependence needs to be a longer-term solution that just to use our own reserves.  We need to get away from it, in general.

Either way, though -- whether we're talking about Biden not drilling or Trump not embracing wind and solar...none of this stuff would be affecting this gas crisis.  It started in 2020, with a production war overseas.  The Biden/Trump solutions or lack of solutions are something we should be talking about in 10 years.

By the time our reserves are depleted, our kids will be long dead.

Please provide sources for this claim.

Yeah?  The world exists longer than our kids do.  It's not like you can just pillage everything and leave shit for the rest of eternity.

It's also a band-aid....and a dumb one.  We need to get away from the use of this stuff anyway, so it makes sense to do those things sooner than later.

"By the time dumping this industrial waste into Lake Michigan ends our ability to fish in it, my kids will be long dead"

Bombing children's hospitals and maternity wards today.

At what point is it just ridding the Earth of scum to make the world a better place, treaties or not?  Nobody but a handful of assholes is better off from what's happening now, including the Russian people.

I saw today that the British claim that Putin will pay for his war crimes.  How, exactly?  He's 70 and rich.  Short of dragging him out of there and killing him, what can anyone do?

"By the time printing all this money into circulation makes it worthless, my kids probably won't be dead."

If our govornment wasn't controlling our oil issue then the electric car guy wouldn't be trying to get them to "drill baby, drill". Elon Musk is on record as saying it hurts his business but we need to increase our production of oil.

Compare for a moment....

https://www.cnn.com/2022/03/09/world/ukrainian-refugee-aid-poland-border-trnd/index.html

with

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/22/us/arizona-aid-volunteers-guilty-trespassing-trnd/index.html

This would be a sick burn if the "let's stop printing money" people weren't also the "let's just stop paying our debts instead" people.

Back in 2008, the last time gas prices were this high, there was a concerted effort to move towards EVs and away from gas guzzlers.  But the moment gas prices dropped, all that was forgotten.  Maybe this time, America will decide that perhaps relying on foreign despots for our energy needs is a bad idea.

These are two totally different scenarios.

One of them involves people who are leaving a dangerous and unstable environment that they have no control over, trying to salvage some safety in their lives for themselves and their children as they flee violence from a vicious psychopath their government is impotent to stop, and the inspiring efforts of their neighbors to help ease their harrowing journey as refugees under international law.

The other one involves white Europeans.

Mike Sommers, the chief executive officer of the American Petroleum Institute, who was in Houston Monday for CERAWeek by S&P Global, said the industry is using a higher percentage of federal onshore and offshore leases than at any time in the past, and it’s continuing to increase production to meet surging demand.

The Biden administration has repeatedly pointed to the number of approved but untapped drilling permits on federal land when questioned about how U.S. production can rise, and what the federal government can do to help.

“There’s a fundamental misunderstanding of the administration as to how the process actually works,” Sommers said in an interview on the sidelines of the conference.


“Just because you have a lease doesn’t mean there’s actually oil and gas in that lease, and there has to be a lot of development that occurs between the leasing and then ultimately permitting for that acreage to be productive,” he said. “I think that they’re purposefully misusing the facts here to advantage their position.”https://www.yahoo.com/now/biden-administration-misusing-facts-oil-203140624.html

In Nevada, some 900,000 acres of our state’s land are currently part of non-producing oil and gas leases, precluding other uses for the land. These leases are essentially pointless, given that our state is not known for being rich in oil resources. - https://www.rgj.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/06/15/dismantling-well-oiled-gas-leasing-machine-annette-magnus/7705244002/

Saw another article that said it could take 10 years to start drilling even if there is oil because of all the regulations they have to go through.

About oil.  A few facts.

1.  There are plenty of existing oil and gas leases that are not being exercised.  The the decision not to drill is that of the oil companies that can buy the oil for the middle east for less than drill domestically.  Biden nor anyone else in the US government can change that.  

2. It has been US strategic policy since the at least the end of WWII to NOT exhaust out natural resources (be it energy or metals) if said items can be freely purchased from other countries.  For military purposes, it is in the US best interest not to sell and exhaust all of our oil reserves.  Hypothetically,  if the US was to completely ramp up domestic production to meet all of our needs and even become an exporter of oil.  That would be great for our economy in the short term.  However, there would come a time when we would run out of oil and be completely dependent on other countries for oil.  That would be a horrible position to be in.   On the other hand if we were to buy most of out energy and deplete our reserves slower than the world at large we would be at a huge advantage when supplies are extremely limited and we have most or all of the remaining supplies.  The current set up is designed not to deplete our resources but allow other countries to do so.  We produce just enough oil to keep our suppliers honest and not make oil prohibitively expensive for prolonged period because as the price of imported oil goes up the quantity of domestic oil produced increases bringing the price back in line.  As long as we have oil in the ground we are not truly at the mercy of OPEC or other oil exporting countries.  But if we were to follow the "drill baby drill" crowd it wouldn't be long before we were in fact completely dependent on other counties.  None of this has anything to do with global warming or the environment, but sound strategic policy.  

1) The oil & gas companies are the ones who applied for the lease in the first place, so they clearly saw some value in the land.
2) "We haven't started any of the development to begin extraction" does not really help the case of the leasing companies.  If they aren't developing the leases they already have, how would giving them more leases help?

Again, these leases - which, by definition, cost money - seem to be promising enough for the oil & gas companies to pay for them!

Did that article happen to mention how long ago these companies received the leases?  I mean, the article you just linked cites a bill from over 2 years ago to curb these unused leases.

Y'all are arguing for more drilling to solve the problem RIGHT NOW, not 5 years from now.  But shouldn't we already be experiencing an oil boom from when the former guy took office 5 years ago and unshackled the drilling industry?

No one knows what is there until they explore it. Can't do that without a lease.

As far a Trump we would be doing better if Biden didn't come in and put a moratorium on drilling. He even reversed his intial descision on the Keystone pipeline. We were expanding ad untying hands at a great rate. 

According to what you just said: if Biden had changed nothing, we wouldn't see any benefits until 9 years from now, because it takes 10 years to start producing.

Keystone is a pipeline, not an oil field.
The oil is still being produced (by Canada, as was always the plan).

And yet you don't see me repeatedly trying to redirect this thread about the war in Ukraine into a discussion about industrial pollution, like you are with the debt.
So, again, stay on topic or make a new thread.  You seem to enjoy repeating that demand at others!

Just to clarify, are you talking about this thread (http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php?topic=27196.0) where you claim that "people who say that biracial/multiracial people are black are racist" and Brian Flores is "more white than black"?

Is that the thread you're referring to?  Just making sure which thread you feel needs more sunlight.  Hard to keep track!

To get back on topic:


Glad you asked.

“But this isn't a place, with all due respect, like Iraq or Afghanistan, that has seen conflict raging for decades. This is a relatively civilized, relatively European — I have to choose those words carefully, too — city, one where you wouldn’t expect that, or hope that it’s going to happen.” (https://twitter.com/imraansiddiqi/status/1497607326487826435)

“It’s very emotional for me because I see European people with blue eyes and blonde hair being killed” (https://twitter.com/rtyson82/status/1497702994590187530)

"We are in the 21st century, we are in a European city and we have cruise missile fire as though we were in Iraq or Afghanistan, can you imagine!” (https://twitter.com/SanaSaeed/status/1497720041223172096)

“They seem so like us. That is what makes it so shocking. War is no longer something visited upon impoverished and remote populations. It can happen to anyone.” (https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/1497652701890555914)

“What's compelling is, just looking at them, the way they are dressed, these are prosperous...I’m loath to use the expression... middle class people. These are not obviously refugees looking to get away from areas in the Middle East that are still in a big state of war. These are not people trying to get away from areas in North Africa. They look like any European family that you would live next door to.” (https://twitter.com/DocRobotnivik/status/1497895651887271938)

“We’re not talking here about Syrians fleeing the bombing of the Syrian regime backed by Putin, we’re talking about Europeans leaving in cars that look like ours to save their lives.” (https://twitter.com/RioMoussallem/status/1497535170450231301)

War and strife are things that are supposed to happen to brown people, not civilized white Europeans with blue eyes and blonde hair.  I mean, they look like they could be your neighbors!  It's shocking!

Reminder to stop personal attacks and stay on topic.

The way I see it, the ones I feel for the most are the citizens, the people that live there.  The Russian government needs no explanation, you can find any number of articles on what they are doing is wrong on so many levels.  The Ukrainian military is full of Nazis, but it's weird no one is talking about that, or if you do you're automatically a Russian sympathizer.

The Ukrainian military is no more "full of Nazis" than our own military.  It's almost certainly less full of Nazis than our own law enforcement.

Putin's talking point about "de-Nazifying Ukraine" is pure, uncut propaganda.

1) In the most recent elections held in 2019, Ukraine's neo-Nazi party, Svoboda, received 2.15% of the popular vote in Ukraine's parliament, and 1.62% of the popular vote in the presidential election.
2) Ukraine is notable (https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/03/28/most-poles-accept-jews-as-fellow-citizens-and-neighbors-but-a-minority-do-not/ft_18-03-26_polandholocaustlaws_map/) among Eastern Europe for their relative lack of anti-semitism:
(https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/FT_18.03.26_polandHolocaustLaws_map.png)
Lastly, Zelenskyy himself is Jewish.  Putin's quest to "de-Nazify Ukraine" by... deposing and/or executing their democratically-elected Jewish president should make the absurdity of that claim transparent to all.

Far-Right Ukrainian Military Unit Teaches Children And Pensioners To Defend Their Country
https://www.rferl.org/a/far-right-ukrainian-military-unit-teaches-children-and-pensioners-to-defend-their-country/31703267.html (https://www.rferl.org/a/far-right-ukrainian-military-unit-teaches-children-and-pensioners-to-defend-their-country/31703267.html)

Profile: Who are Ukraine’s far-right Azov regiment?
The far-right neo-Nazi group has expanded to become part of Ukraine’s armed forces, a street militia and a political party.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment)

FACEBOOK ALLOWS PRAISE OF NEO-NAZI UKRAINIAN BATTALION IF IT FIGHTS RUSSIAN INVASION
https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-battalion-russia/ (https://theintercept.com/2022/02/24/ukraine-facebook-azov-battalion-russia/)

How a Far-Right Battalion Became a Part of Ukraine’s National Guard
https://www.vice.com/en/article/3ab7dw/azov-battalion-ukraine-far-right (https://www.vice.com/en/article/3ab7dw/azov-battalion-ukraine-far-right)

There is a non-zero number of Nazi's in the Ukraine.  Three articles talking about one organization that numbers at 900 out of a population of over 43 million.  There is more justification for Mexico to invade Charlottesville, Virginia to de-nazifiy Charlottesville than for Russia to invade Ukraine. 

It is amazing to what contortions Trump supporters will go to to support Putin rather than the USA. 

What does this bolded part mean.  Is this directed at me?  Because if it is, adjust your bifocals and scroll up to my original message.

BTW all three of those articles are from left leaning sources, so what you're saying doesn't make a lick of sense regarding Trump supporters.

I don't think there's any legitimacy to suggest that Ukraine has a Nazi issue, as it relates to a war with Russia.  It would be like us getting invaded because we have a Nazi problem.  I won't disagree that we do have an issue with white supremacy and it's seeped into our institutions and politics, but it's nothing more than a fringe idea and certainly not justification for invasion from a foreign power.

Discussion of Nazism, as it relates to Ukraine and Russia, is propaganda for Russia to justify invasion. 

The first half is false.  And in fact the only reason to state the false first half is if you are a Russian sympathizer.  

It is the equivalent of making the statement. "The sun revolves around the earth, but nobody talks about that or if you bring it up you're automatically accused of being ignorant of basic astronomy facts"  

What's the endgame for Ukraine?

Is it just to make it costly and a slog for Russia to stay there?  A war of attrition?  Just bleed them out of resources and will until it becomes too unpopular to stay?

And for Russia -- I assume it's to kill Zelensky and put in a puppet government, then use that to reclaim Crimea officially?  ...and this is all to keep NATO away from their borders?

Endgame for Ukraine is to stall until international pressure pushes Putin to the negotiation table.  Sadly, I don't see any way that Ukraine is getting Crimea back, and I'm not even sure that Russia will be forced to backtrack their declaration of independence for the regions in eastern Ukraine.

Putin has a couple of goals.  There are his fake stated goals of "de-Nazifying Ukraine" and "stopping NATO from reaching Russia's borders," but those fake goals are fake.  If Russia annexes Ukraine, they will suddenly have 4 more NATO states on their (new) border.

Then there are his other stated goals:
1) Ukraine and Russia are "one people," and Ukraine is not a "real country."  This is a straightforward argument for annexation of Ukraine.
2) Restoration of the pre-Soviet Russian Empire, which would involve annexing most of eastern Europe (including many countries that are part of NATO)

Does he want to just make Ukraine part of Russia -- or does he want to keep it Ukraine, but have it be "Russia Jr."...so that Nato can butt up against it, but not actually touch Russian borders?  I figured he's just there to install a fake government that is under the Russian thumb.

The thought I keep seeing is that he wants the return of the USSR. They think he will turn to Poland next.

I just don't see how that's possible.  It would trigger immediate war with most of the world.  I don't think that's a war he is able to wage.

If China and North Korea back him, it might not matter.   Like Spider said, most of the key parts of the world will be a radioactive wasteland.

I don't see China getting involved in a war for some other country.  It doesn't seem to be their style.  They're relatively isolationist in that way.

My concern regarding China is if Putin successfully annexes Ukraine it could embolden them to take Tiawan.

Depends on the cost.  Even if Russia does "successfully" annex Ukraine, if it comes at the cost of economic devastation, that could be an extremely powerful deterrent to China or any other nation with similar expansionist goals.

All my life, paying for the greatest military might in the world.  Protecting freedom, all that shit.  I'm not even for that kind of thing, but it's what we are.

What's it for, if not to protect a democratic sovereign nation from getting war crimes committed on them by a tyrant dictator who is lying and abusing power.  Is it because he's got nukes?  Is this what we do -- let crazy people do whatever the fuck they want because they might nuke us?  That's just a hostage situation.

I've seen us in so many murky conflicts where we didn't belong, farting around with no real discernable goal.

I wouldn't be mad if we declared war on Russia with 2 conditions.  We bring the pain, the sanctions and the drone strikes and blow up the Goddamn Kremlin until:
1) Russia leaves Ukraine in full.
2) Vladamir Putin is killed, captured, or voluntarily exiles.

Let his own people turn against him.  They don't want this war for that asshole.

Invite the rest of the world to join.

Obama fucked this up with Syria.  We just let these shitty assholes do whatever war crimes to democratic uprisings.  

Dave, you are talking about America as World Police.

This situation in Ukraine is shitty.  It would be dramatically worse by adding global thermonuclear war.

Correct: possessing nukes makes it extremely difficult and dangerous for other countries to take direct military action against you.  That's why it's so important that we stop new countries from developing nuclear capability!

There is a set of circumstances under which the United States should and would declare war on Russia.
Annexing part of Georgia is not it.
Annexing Crimea is not it.
Annexing the entirety of Ukraine is still not it.
Invading any NATO country is, in fact, the red line that may not be crossed.  It is literally why NATO exists.

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, and Poland all realized this, which is why they joined NATO.  Ukraine did not.  It is what it is.

In the earlier round of negotiations Russia demanded Ukraine not to pursue joining NATO and the EU, recognize the independence of the regions east of Ukraine, along with Russia's claim to Crimea and in addition now the entire southern coastline of Ukraine and accompanying states. This would have the effect of maintaining more of a buffer zone between NATO forces and Moscow (as opposed to the Russian border per se), give them complete Naval access to the Black Sea in all weather, and effectively land lock Ukraine if they somehow manage to remain independent (and this fight has shown they would rather die than put up with Russian occupation).

I think it's been pretty obvious Putin wants to overthrow the Government and install a President more sympathetic to Russian motives (ie. a puppet like he has in Belarus) the moment forces began to mass at the northern border and prepared to move on Kyiv as well as the contested regions to the east of Ukraine. At the risk of making Zelenskyy a martyr, he won't stop until he is either dead or rotting away in the Gulag to send a message to his detractors.

(https://i.imgur.com/v4GNqU7.png)

That won't happen unless all the Oligarchs and/or military turn on Putin to have him replaced. At the moment I just don't think the situation is bad enough for them.

Tens of thousands have been arrested in protests in Russia and sent to prisons without a blink of an eye. The youth who are clued in on what's going on (via independent news, internet and social media sources - which are being silenced as the war goes on) don't have the numbers or the power. Many who have been jailed, beaten and tortured over their opposition have fled to countries like Lithuania to survive. The older generation are brainwashed by the political media, and many long for the old Soviet era when they thought things were better. It's a complex, divided country, but all the real power lies with the incumbents under a fake pretense of democracy, which is in reality nothing more than a brutal dictatorship.

There are all sorts of wild rumors at the moment that Putin is spending all most all of his time in a bunker so he won't be assassinated. Meeting Presidents and his chief officials at the end of a forty foot long table doesn't exactly extinguish the talk that he is that paranoid... Zelenskyy has challenged to meet him for face to face for talks - I can't see that happening short of Zelenskyy's head being on the end of a stick.

The latest military strike at Yavoriv military facility to west near Lviv is just 25KM from the Polish border.

Russia has determined attacking the base where Western arms shipments are going as well as Foreign fighters is worth the risk of incidentally crossing that red line if they happen to miss.

If a stray missile/artillery does wind up in Polish territory, will NATO react?

I think it would take more than a stray missile; there was already the Russian drone that crashed in Croatia.

A targeted weapons attack on an area within a NATO country would certainly provoke a direct (but still proportional) response.
Russian troops actually invading a NATO country would immediately mean full-blown war (but not nuclear).
Any nuclear device detonated in a NATO country (or in Russia!) means all bets are off.

Dave, I still don't agree that we should escalate the war in Ukraine with more direct NATO involvement, but I did see an interesting article (https://sethabramson.substack.com/p/the-ten-hardest-truths-about-the?s=r) following the non-interventionist position to its extremely logical conclusion:

"[W]hen NATO refuses to get directly involved militarily in Ukraine—which is the right decision, given that Putin is a sociopath, has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world, and would have no hope of pacifying the West in an all-out direct military conflict except through the mutually assured destruction of nuclear war—it is, in effect, conceding Ukraine to Putin.

And the lesson Putin will learn from this is that if he wishes to reconstitute the Soviet Union, he has an open runway to do so over the long term at least as to non-NATO countries Moldova, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Armenia (the last of which is a longstanding NATO partner, but not a NATO member). That’s nine countries, some European, that NATO is telling Putin he can have without a fight. It’s enough open trail to last Putin many more years of pursuing his sole lifelong ambition, during which time he would simultaneously be continuing his efforts to destabilize NATO, the EU, and America."

Unfortunately, there is no good solution to this problem.  The best I can hope for is that if Putin continues invading former Soviet republics, the sanctions will extend from Russia to those who are enabling Russia (e.g. China, the Saudis, India, etc).

Considering Russia is now saying they will use nukes against us if we don't return Alaska and California's Fort Ross to them for reparations it may be coming more clear that force up front may save a lot down the road. I even saw Bill Maher saying that Putin wouldn't be pulling this crap under Trump because Trump was so unpredictable in his resonses. Biden  ... not so much.

The U.S. has been the World Police ever since post WWII.   Korea, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Afghanistan, Iraqi Freedom, you name it.   It is what it is.

Do you enjoy posting false and inflammatory lies for some sort of perverse pleasure or is it that you are incapable of understanding the difference between fact and fiction?  Based on your history it must be one or the other.

Tensions are high enough without posting stuff like this.  I noticed this time you didn't even post a link to the article that you completely distorted. 

What you posted is the equivalent of "US accuses Jewish space agency of using lasers to start forest fires in California.  War between Israel and US is immanent."

One member of the Russian house of representatives    parliament is demanding the return of Alaska.    A demand that a fringe portion of the Russians have been making for years. 

STOP WITH THE BULLSHIT POSTS

You crack me up. I really can't seem to understand the degree of boredom you have in your life. It's been getting broadcast on Russian State TV. That means it has been approved information by the Russian govornment but I get it though. You are the same person fighting against anyone having a gun yet you ar happy Ukraine has armed teenagers, grandparent, and tons of others with no training with semi automatic rifles. Basically you have no moral line but just like to argue. Good luck with that.

It is not boredom, but being pissed at needing to google your fucking lies!!!!  Your constant lies.  Every time you post something, I go "what the fuck is he talking about?" then I google your claim and find an article on some fringe news source that doesn't even claim one tenth of what you are claiming.  Stop with the bullshit. 

Says the guy who thinks libraries are forms of communism.   

They are a form of socialism.  They meet the definition, but you refuse to accept that because you don't want to accept that socialism has many positive aspects. 

Maybe I just don't want to see it from you because half the stuff you post is completely uncalled for.   

Since you bring this up:  Ukraine has no 2nd Amendment (or equivalent), yet their government seems to be handing out weapons to their citizens without issue.  Of course, as we can also see, those semi-automatic rifles aren't doing a goddamn thing about Russian artillery shelling them from miles away, which tells you quite a bit about the value of armed civilians in a modern theater of war.

Maybe the real lesson here is that every American should (does?) have a constitutional right to a Javelin anti-tank missile, since those seem to be having the most success for Ukraine so far.

They still haven't taken then and in reality if other countries wanted to help they would. I can assure you if our govrnment turns on the people by an evil dictator that other countries would be here to help us and if they didn't ... we could survive in the wild for quite some time.


I have no issue. I live in the country and literally hear semi and seemingly automatic weapons almost every day. There is even an occasional blast or two.  None of my neighbors have been shot, mugged, and or raped to date that I know of.

The country with the evil dictator problem is Russia, not Ukraine.  And I assure you that more handguns would not solve Russia's problem, or even help appreciably.

From the standpoint of repelling an hostile invasion, handguns and rifles are not doing anything against Russia's airplanes and artillery.  What IS helping is the equipment that Americans are still not allowed to possess under the 2A: portable anti-tank missiles and anti-aircraft batteries.  When Ukraine asks for more help from NATO, "more handguns" is pretty far down the list.

Just saw this translation (https://twitter.com/just_whatever/status/1504144895501557762) of a Putin speech from earlier today.  The video speaks for itself.  I think we can expect purges to begin within Russia shortly.

This brings up another question: is there any action that Putin could take strictly within Russia that would compel the rest of the world to invade and liberate the country?  I can't see it.  Maybe if he started nuking disloyal cities?

Like I mentioned earlier, Russia is complex, but it's basically a police state with a compromised (ie. state run) media with everything outside being blocked out. There's a good chunk of the population who are happy mushrooms, locked in a dark room, being fed bullshit by the Government media and is unwilling to look at the daylight, what's happening outside of that narrative.

Those who do look outside the dark box and protest are arrested, beaten, and either driven out of the country, rot in a jail, or worse. Candidates at elections with a opposing agenda are subject to the same treatment (jailed, beaten, killed), so while the elections are prima face conducted in a genuine fashion, they are an absolute sham.

There are only two options to facilitate a real change with what has happened with the invasion of Ukraine. Either the world ratchets up sanctions enough that the entire economy of Russia goes broke in the next 2-4 weeks - that may influence the Oligarchs backing Putin, or the military involved in an expensive war in manpower morale and $$$ to move him on... but if this fails it could further establish Putin in as the overlord who cannot be toppled.

Or we all say fuck it, and the UN commits a (real) peacekeeping effort to clearing them out of Ukraine and restore the proper borders. Yes it is calling Putin's bluff of a nuclear retaliation - and given what he has already done with no prior consequences, and what he may interpret from the prior sanctions to damage of his considerable (est. $2bn+) personal wealth, there's no guarantee that line has not already been crossed. This guy is an A-Grade, card carrying asshole of the highest qualifications, and who does carry a grudge.

The massacres in Bucha should be a turning point. Even China has backed away from supporting Russia's narrative, asking for more independent sources of the atrocities committed (even though it has already been confirmed by multinational news resources on the ground). Sadly, it sounds like that's there's even worse throughout Ukraine...

The USA, UK, Australia Governments and the west are announcing more economic sanctions...  you wankers didn't think the previous shit was bad enough? How fucking bad does it have to get before you commit to full economic sanctions? What after that? Are you going to actually grow a pair of balls and do something?

I really do salute the bravery of the Ukraine people in the face of the worst possible odds, what they had to endure. It's the type of legend we beat ourselves up here in Australia, and I have no doubt you also do in the USA - the Victoria Cross/Medal of Honor winner who overcomes the worst of odds in bloody combat to triumph. These folks over there are living it right now... seemingly alone, and with rather minimal support.

I would support anything we do to topple Putin.

I don't want nuclear war, obviously, but it seems like at some point you have to address it.  Nukes exist and assholes have the button.  So you're just gonna let assholes do whatever, forever?  Go in and kill the guy.

I just had this crazy thought - life imitating "art".  I said about China now gradually backing away from Russia after the Bucha atrocities are becoming widely known...

It's like that episode of Seinfeld, the pact between Jerry and George - Russia has decided to marry (ie. invade) Ukraine and is expecting China to do the same with Taiwan, who is looking around, and having second thoughts...

Too much wine and whisky for me tonight!  :D ;D

The other crazy thing to come up from the last lot of negotiations was that the Russians allegedly poisoned the Ukrainians in the room (and an Oligarch acting as an intermediate) as some sort of warning! How the hell can you talk with people who will openly demonstrate they are willing to flippantly kill you during the actual process of a peace talk? Talk about zero trust!

https://www.wsj.com/articles/roman-abramovich-and-ukrainian-peace-negotiators-suffer-symptoms-of-suspected-poisoning-11648480493

Not "whatever, forever".  We will let them invade countries with which we do not have military alliances committing us to mutual defense.  Unfortunately, that's the kind of clout that you get from having nukes, as Iraq can attest.

If you're going to make the argument that a Russian invasion of Ukraine merits a direct US/NATO military response, then make that argument.  But don't tell me it's because of Russia's conduct since the invasion, because that's BS.  There has been stuff that's as-bad-or-worse than this going on in Central America, Africa, and the Middle East for the past... 20 years?  Yet no one gives a damn.  And we don't even have to risk WW3 to put an end to it!

Again, to be clear: I support aid to Ukraine, even at a greater level than we might aid some of these other regions I mentioned; the stakes are different. But the idea that we should risk open war with a nuclear power for a non-NATO country strictly because of how badly Ukrainians are suffering just doesn't sit right with me when we casually allow millions of brown people around the globe to suffer just as badly. I'm not doing whataboutism here; I'm saying, "Let's stick with the same military decision we were already making even if we see pictures of white Europeans suffering as a consequence."