The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

New defensive coordinator will have his hands full. Big loss today as Wilkins is signing with the Raiders 5 for 110 million, Robert hunt is signing with the Panthers for 20 million  year, AVG reunites with Flores in Minnesota for 10 million a year, and Brandon Jones is signing with Denver but details haven't been released. We did re-sign Nik Needham and Elijah Campbell so there is that.

Loses so far ...

DT Christian Wilkins
OG Robert Hunt
CB Xavian Howard
LB Andrew Van Ginkel
S Brandon Jones
LB Jerome Baker
LB Emmanuel Ogbah
CB Keion Crossen


Hoch and Crowder said today feels like being left on the Titanic. Not a good day.

Hunt will definitely be missed.
The rest of the losses are on defense, and the defense frankly wasn't very good.  If the defense is blown up, so be it.

Beginning of the descent for the Dolphins. My prediction for next year is 9-8 and miss the playoffs unless they hit it big in the draft unexpectedly.

Not sure what team you were watching but before we lost half the defense to injuries they had worked their way into a a top 5 defense. This after starting very slowly under the new regime.

It sucks because we did lose talent and brought in none except for a LBer that is hurt as much as Armstead. Oddly enough our decimated defense still outplayed our super star offense at the end of the season but that bar was set pretty low.

If losing talent is an indicator then I don't see 9 wins available to us. It's going to be impossible to replace the talent we've lost and the schedule may not be as favorable this year.  

We are starting year 6 of a total rebuild with zero playoff wins and now purging our roster. I honestly have no idea how Chris Grier is still in charge of the circus.

After watching the last two minutes of the Tennessee game I cannot feel bad about losing anybody on that defense. The best defense is still a good offense and the Fins will pass or fail (no puns intended) with Tua. Our biggest priority as far as I'm concerned is Offensive Line.

And when was this, exactly?  You say they "started slowly," which seems to acknowledge that they looked absolutely terrible @LAC and @BUF.  They didn't look good @PHI either.  I'm guessing "lost half the defense" has to mean the moment Phillips went down, because anything else just doesn't make sense: they definitely didn't look like a "top 5 defense" when they gave up 15 points in three minutes to a team that finished with 6 wins, and Chubb didn't go down until BAL had already hung 49 on them.  They played well at home against the Jets though!

For the record, MIA finished #22 in points allowed.

When you give up 56 points to BAL, and allow 26 points/400+ yards of offense in -4 degree weather, you haven't outplayed anyone.  That is bottom 5-level defensive play.

And it's worth mentioning that the offense had more players out all year long.

If that's how you feel then so be it. #22 for the year looks good for the negative spin but does not account for how good they became when healthy. Even old school people who say injures don't matter were looking at the Dolphins D and admitting no way they overcome them with so many key players gone.

November/December 2023 they were top 3 and top 5 respectfully.

https://www.oddschecker.com/us/insight/football/nfl/20231207-2023-nfl-team-defense-rankings-ranking-the-top-defenses-in-the-nfl-heading-into-week-14
 3. MIAMI DOLPHINS
The defense has improved in the second half since Jalen Ramsey returned to the field. That's not a coincidence.


https://www.oddschecker.com/us/insight/football/nfl/20231214-2023-nfl-team-defense-rankings-ranking-the-top-defenses-in-the-nfl-heading-into-week-15
5. MIAMI DOLPHINS
The Dolphins have 42 sacks with 12 interceptions but have improved in the last few months.

I've never heard of oddschecker.com before today, and it's unclear what metric they are using to rank defenses.  KC finished #2 in both points and yards allowed, yet in these rankings they are ranked #25 one week and then #12 the next.  These feel like "Defense Power Rankings" which is basically just vibes.

Raekwon Davis has also left, signing a two year deal with the Colts.

I can see why Fangio wanted to leave if he knew this was on the cards - the defense has been absolutely gutted of some of its best players of the last five years.

Anthony Weaver is almost having to start again from scratch - it's no surprise now he was raving about Ramsey and Phillips during his first press conference (as there's going to be almost no one else left). There are a lot of high end draft picks that we used in the rebuild that are gone. Jevon Holland publicly campaigned for Jones to stay - is he the next one out the door?

We lost Hunt to FA, despite Armstead, Ramsey, Sieler, Smythe, and Ingold all having their contracts restructured to squeeze in under the cap. Keeping Conor Williams still has to be doubtful, even after those moves. Plus we have Tua's contract negotiations next year to look forward to.

We really did go all-in last season, and that trade for Chubb now doesn't look like such a great move. Anyone who thought our defense was poor are going to be in for a big shock next season, because it's going to be closer to non-existent now. As good as Ramsey and Phillips are, they can't play the other nine positions on the field.

It's hard to see us recovering from this.

Grier has got to be on notice. If we miss the playoffs, I can't see him surviving after it becomes crystal clear that the rebuild has been a total failure.

+1 I agree completely.  The defense had a couple bad games, but overall they were becoming a really solid unit; in spite of all the injuries.

I agree, but I think they will be lucky to win 7 games.  The only thing left to happen to make things even worse is to re-sign Connor Williams (who won't be able to even attempt playing until Oct or Nov), and signing Tua to a mega cash contract that will paralyze this franchise for the next half decade.  I think Tua deserves his 5th year to try and prove himself, after which I'd be okay to signing him to long term deal.  However, IMO Tua is a Dak Prescott type - he'll put up numbers and win regular season games, but he will never win Miami a playoff game.

IMO Grier's main job this offseason should have been to re-sign Wilkins, and he failed.  Secondly, he then lost Van Ginkel who played his heart out for this team.  Instead of keeping this future talent with these guys, Miami will have to rely on signing used up guys to one year contracts.

I feel bad for Mike McDaniel he's a decent coach, and I think he would have improved as a HC, but now I see two terrible years from Miami and he will be shown the door.

I think there's way too much emphasis placed on the $15M difference between $40M being tied up at the QB position and $55M.  If you look at GB with Rodgers, NO with Brees, and IND/DEN with Peyton, at no times were those teams "unable to compete" because too much cap was tied up at QB.  Now, did those teams win multiple Super Bowls?  No.  But paying an extra 6% of their cap on QB salary was not the reason why.

If your QB is playing well, it doesn't matter how much you're paying him (see: KC since Mahomes signed his record contract).  And if he's not playing well, it also doesn't matter how much you're paying him!  This fixation by many fans on whether the QB is taking 15% of the cap or 20% of the cap is really missing the point.

Not sure what your point is, but the three QB's you mentioned all won playoff games and Super Bowls (BTW Peyton did win multiple SB's), not Tua after four years.  The best thing Miami can do right now (after the exodus of players and starting next season with multiple starters on the IR) is to Trade Tua now and get some 1st round draft picks.

Not by himself he won't. Not even with Tyreek, Waddle and a terrific offensive line he won't. Grier better start plucking out defensive pro-bowlers in the draft or at the very least 3 or 4 solid defensive players over the next couple of years. I'm starting to fear that Mike McDaniel might be a better offensive coordinator than head coach.

In point of fact:

- Peyton Manning lost his first 3 playoff games in IND and didn't win his first playoff game until year 6.  IND won 1 SB in Peyton's 9th season.
- DEN won 1 SB in Peyton's 18th and final season.
- Aaron Rodgers lost his first playoff game in year 5.  GB won 1 SB in Rodgers' 6th season.
- Drew Brees lost his first playoff game in year 4 with SD and won his first playoff game in year 6 with NO.  NO won 1 SB in Brees' 9th season.

Not sure this is true. KC, San Francisco and Baltimore had 3 of the best defenses in the NFL last year. Yeah they had good offenses, but the Dolphins had a good offense last year and they didn't win a single playoff game. The best defense is a good defense. It was only a year ago that people were singing the praises of Vic Fangio and speculating how good the Dolphins were gonna be in 2023 because of a much improved defense. Now that they have gutted the defensive side of the ball, it doesn't matter anymore? Whatever.

I think people expected the defense to be better than it was under Fangio.  The defense was embarrassingly bad at the start of the year and fell apart at the end of the year.

It was the only quick Google return for "during the season" but it was inline to what happened with PFF and others. Joe Rose and Omar Kelly used to debate this and the reasons behind it every single week.

C'mon ... they had an unusual amount of injuries the their star players at the end of the year. At some point injuries are an excuse especially when you have retired guys starting after one week of practice.

With that said when the division was on the line against Buffalo at the end it was the defense that kept us in the game.

The TEN and BAL games are the games I was referring to.  Total debacles on defense.

And no one cares about who was injured on offense all year long; you either get it done or you don't.

Which just goes to show you how important a good defense is, even if you have a good offense. If they were bad last year, it's quite possible they will be worse this year. Not sure how you can view it any other way.

McDaniel ain't a cleanskin in all this. He told Grier to "trade everything" to get Hill. He underused Mike Gesicki when we franchised him and let him walk - because he obviously undervalues the tight end position. Last years draft was apparently awash with quality at that position, and we did not draft one - well, we did draft WR and potential TE Elijah Higgins, and then cut him after training camp - for him to be picked up by Arizona.

This year is going to be prove it or lose it for McDaniel. We've invested a lot in his run and gun offense (in my eyes, it still looks like the old run and shoot from the 1990s) and next season it will have to put up a truckload of points every week to have a chance of winning, because we will basically have a shell of a defense compared to the last few seasons. I saw this stuff back in the late 1980s, and Dan's magic arm on its own could not get a playoff slot between 1986-1989. Shula's worst ever season was during that period, also going winless against the rest of the AFC East. Gulp.

^

I fully disagree about Gesicki.  He isn't gone because he was misused.  He was gone because 1) he's not a good fit for our system and 2) he's just not worth the money.  It's good for us that he's not here.

Do you really want all this speed on the field, running RPO with Hill, Waddle, Moestart, etc.  ...and then you want designed plays for Gesicki?  Why would you do that?  Additionally, we need an extra blocker to help with the scheme, so we need to prioritize a blocking TE.  Gesicki simply isn't a good blocking TE.  He's a pass catcher.  ...but on this team, he's your 4th option AT BEST.

And all that said, Gesicki's numbers went down a lot anyway.

In his last year with the Phins, where we were apparently not using him to his potential, he had 32 recetions for 362 yards, 11.3 avg, with 5 TDs.
Last year with the Pats, he was 29 receptions for 244 yards, 8.4 avg, with only 2 TDs.

He simply isn't worth what his market value at the time was.

I think "misused" and "not a good fit for our system" are the same thing when it comes to Gesicki.  McDaniel didn't do much of any play calling for Gesicki, so I agree it was good he was gone because Miami wasn't going to use him to his potential.  But to be fair Gesicki's numbers went down a lot due to the fact his targets went way down (I posted the numbers before and am not going to bother looking them up again).  As for what happened in NE I'm not going to waste time looking up how he was used, NE was a bad team with a bad QB last year.  I agree he wasn't worth his VALUE TO MIAMI because he wasn't going to be used to his potential.

Seems like the Dolphins are going for Quantity over Quality. The have signed a lot of players. Maybe they thought that plugging several holes with players that will cost loss was a better option than keeping some very productive players that would have been more costly. I can at least see some reason to that, I just hope it works as we lost a lot of very good players off a defensive squad that wasn't great but at times played pretty good last year on top of getting a new coordinator. I'm keeping my fingers crossed but they are gonna have to prove it. I'm trying to keep an open mind.

Was listening to Drew Rosenhaus this morning and he said that he's signed several of the free agents to Miami this year and most of them have taken less money to play in Miami. Either they are here because they like McDaniel and company or they heard about Fangio's partying comments. I know he represents Robert Jones, Shaq Barret, Jonnu Smith, Anthony Walker, and Jordon Poyer but not sure who else.

Can you elaborate?  I must have missed this.

Let's not forget that Miami has been scoring high on the NFLPA survey also.

LOL ... Ron Jaworski actually said that's what he said. I don't think most people ever bought into it.

“There were some players on that defense that didn’t want to work,” said Fangio’s friend and NFL veteran, Ron Jaworski, this week on Philadelphia radio station WIP. “Didn’t want to put the time in, didn’t want to put the effort in, didn’t want to make the commitment to be successful.

“Guys like to party at night, and South Beach is really a great place to party. And Vic tried to get those guys and push those guys to become harder workers and better athletes and more committed to their team. And he couldn’t get through to those guys. Those were the guys that Vic was pushing, and they’re the guys that are whining right now.”

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/2024/02/02/dave-hyde-do-dolphins-have-a-problem-with-professionalism-as-fangio-suggests/

So, Jaws was saying that Vic wanted these South Beach party guys to buy into the team more, but they wouldn't.

And then, these free agents hear that there's a party atmosphere here, so they want to come?  Am I getting that right?

I was just being tongue in cheek. I'm hoping they really want to be here because of the team, facilities, and staff itself. Most of them already live in South Florida anyway so I can't see the nightlife being the reason they want to be here.

There is a difference between paying a top tier QB top tier money and paying a second tier QB top tier money.  If you have a top tier QB you can get away with a less talented supporting crew because the QBs talent will make up for a weaker online, or a WR that needs perfect placement.   

If you have a second-tier QB, and your OL and/or receiving corps needs to make up for a deficiency at QB, paying said QB $15M less per year is not enough savings to compensate for the talent shortfall under center.

To be clear: the difference in cap cost between a top-tier QB and a QB on a rookie deal IS very significant, and you can do a lot of work with that extra money.  When CIN made it to the SB, Burrow's average annual pay was ~$9M/year, but his new contract pushes that to $55M/year.  That's huge.  Similarly, Hurts' contract went from $1.5M/year to $51M/year.  So if you want to say that a QB needs to win on his rookie contract or he's not worth keeping, that's a defensible position to take.  You're gonna be drafting a lot of QBs under that philosophy, but at least it's an ethos.

So we restructured Chubb's contract to save around $11M... but it's a case of way too little, way, way too late.

The horse has already bolted, and since that latest move we brought back Cracraft, and are looking at OBJ? Hardly inspiring stuff considering what we lost.

It's official - the rebuild under Grier is an absolute failure (bordering a pisstake). You just cannot recover from the departure of so many 1st to 3rd round picks spent over 5-6 years - especially with aging mercenaries on 1-2 year contracts.

Yeah there was a few busts and we lost a lot but I think this is an overreaction.

I think we are better in the secondary with X gone and Fuller added, obviously a lot is gonna depend on how Phillips and Chubb recover from their injuries.

I think we are better on offense so if we are worse on D we just gotta score more. We’re still in contention this year.

I see.  I wasn't trying to press you.  I just wanted to make sure I understood the joke, as I never heard that report about Fangio.

I think that there is a natural want to live in South Florida for all kinds of reasons.  Night life, weather, taxes, wealth, culture -- all kinds of people find this area desirable, so it's not exclusive to athletes.

I know I'd certainly rather live in Miami than Cleveland or Detroit.

Agreed but Fangio's comments are still troubling. He came here with an impressive resume and failed to deliver. According to him it's because the players didn't want to work hard and would rather party. It could be that Fangio and the players just didn't see eye to eye and this is just sour grapes as he's leaving for what he considers to be greener pastures. On the other hand if there's some truth to his words, it's very troubling and suggests that the defensive side of the ball this upcoming year is going to be in a LOT of trouble. What's even more troubling is that it seems some of those that were expecting Fangio to fix the defensive side of the ball only a year ago are now seemingly brushing his comments under the rug. I guess time will tell.

I've heard many local beat writers and former players like Joe Rose talk about this and they all pretty much laughed it off. Joe Rose and crew were known for partying hard. Clayton and especially Duper led the way into coming in hung over the next day on a couple hours of sleep ... and they weren't just drinking. Today these guys eat scientifically balanced meals, supplements, and get plenty of rest. The give off the illusion of the party lifestyle but outside of a few no one is living it. Besides ... what club can you party in and no one post it on social media? TMZ has made a living off outing these things.

That's a very optimistic view given what we lost in the off season (not just X, a whole lot of more important beef).

Let's see how it pans out... god help me, I really do hope I am wrong on this... but I'm pretty sure I'm not. It's a painful year ahead...

I think you are missing the point and are taking his words much too literally. I'm pretty sure that Fangio isn't with these players once they leave the building so he has no idea what they are doing in their spare time, that's not the point. The point is do you come into work ready to do your job and do you take doing your job seriously and train hard at it or do you treat practice like it's "just practice" like some people tend to do. That's the point.

Joe Rose can laugh it off all he wants, perhaps that was a bit of a problem for him as well.

Look, there's 2 sides to every story and I'm sure that Fangio has his side and the players have theirs, but it's not like Fangio hasn't been around football most of his adult life. He probably has a pretty good idea of the players who are putting in the effort necessary to get better and those that aren't. That's all I'm saying.

And Bill Belichick is a cranky old man with power issues just like Fangio. You see where he is. that's why he failed as a head coach. Fangio's retirement most likely isn't far behind.

Lost his touch a little towards the end -- okay, that is fair.

Failed as a head coach???  Are you fucking kidding me? 

I assumed he meant Fangio failed as a coach...but I also was unsure.  Bellichek is arguably the best ever.  The curmudgeon style might be aging out, but the dude got it done.

driven from the league in shame

Yes. It was poorly written

So part of that money we saved in the recent restructures has gone to... Kader Kohou, who got paid the fifth largest performance bonus in the NFL last season for starting 16 games.

https://sports.yahoo.com/kader-kohou-earns-nfl-5th-185552505.html
https://www.thephinsider.com/2024/4/4/24121519/miami-dolphins-cb-kader-kohou-cashes-in-with-performance-based-pay-bump

"Opposing quarterbacks completed 84 percent of passes when targeting Kohou in coverage. He surrendered 791 yards and seven touchdowns, according to PFF..."

Well, that's money well spent. (Yes, I'm being sarcastic).

I mean good on the kid to have that written in his contract - but we really are up shit creek when we can't hang on to the players we need and do this.

This was not something he had written into his specific contract it is part of the CBA and it doesn’t count against the salary cap.

Any player that is at the top of this list is a bargain for the team, it means you have a very low paid player that is playing a large number of snaps, might indicate you have other higher paid players not playing much (which is an indication of poor allocation of resources) but the player collecting a large performance bonus is not the problem.

^^^^ correct. He was an undrafted signee and played very well in his first season. This past season he was playing another position because we were in such bad shape and was exposed. Either way, he's been a bargain for Miami as far as salary.

Yeah sorry guys, I missed the mark with that rant.

It's just we've been so bad this offseason, it seemed like one of our usual snafu moments.

Ps. I'm still shaking my head in disbelief we offered OBJ a contract when there are so many other pressing needs...

I have no idea how much we are offering OBJ but the guesses by media members are around 7-8 million a year. If that's the case then I have no issue with it. If it's the 18 million given to him by Baltimore then I'd balk.

Yeah some of the losses hurt. Especially Wilkins but I’m not mad with X gone.

I think Fuller will be better. I think we added some good depth and special teams players.

If we can land OBJ or a good 3rd WR and get the best player available in the draft I think we can do just fine on offense.

This is the dolphins so I won’t be surprised at 4-13 next year lol but I don’t think it’s reason to think the sky is falling.

https://www.nfl.com/news/dolphins-to-sign-wr-odell-beckham-jr-to-one-year-deal-worth-up-to-8-25-million

The reports are coming out that we have signed OBJ to a one year deal - I read somewhere it's a base of $3 million which bloats up to over $8 million with incentives.

Which is fine on it's own accord... except we are now fully capped out until X is released June 1st with a whole lot of missing pieces to address. When that $18 million does become available, we're gonna need some or all of it for the Tua contract negotiation (or the franchise tag). Plus we just spent two (admittedly lower) draft picks on WR.

It’s a steal 3m is nothing and if he hits 8m then it means he performed extraordinary well.

We have some problems I’m worried about the line on both sides but if the OL can at least do as good as last year I think we are gonna be better on offense.

I just don't understand the rationale with signing OBJ, who will be the #3 receiver; no matter what the price is.  Miami drafted a receiver and re-signed a couple guys (Berrios and Cracraft, etc) to fill the third spot.  So why sign OBJ who can be a bit of a prima donna.  Where are his targets going to come from?  And whether you blame Tua or the O-line, Tua barely gets past the primary receiver in his read progression so he's not gonna have time to find OBJ.  For the 4 or 5 significant catches he may have per year it's a waste of money, especially if other receivers could make those catches.  I really wish they put as much emphasis on the defensive backfield.  IMO it's a waste of money and roster spot.

The only thing that makes sense is if they plan on trading Waddle for some future draft capital.

OBJ is also insurance for if, or when, Waddle or Hill are hurt. He can easily step into the #2 or even #1 role of need be for a game or two. No one else can do that. 

Well that's an expensive insurance policy for guys that typically don't miss a lot of games because of injury, I mean if it was a back up for Armstead I could understand.  In the meantime he'll be creating friction in the locker room because that's what he does.

I don't remember OBJ creating friction in LA or BAL.

He seems to be on good behavior lately. I think McD can work with him well. I’m not worried about him being a locker room issue, by all accounts he seems to accept what his role in the league is now.

It already says a lot that he came here for less money than elsewhere. I think it’s a solid pickup with low risk and a chance that the old timer might surprise people.

Not sure what you mean by that. They missed 4 games between the two and were injured in a few other games. Our offense typically didn't do well without them. Even when they were out on breathers our backups struggled.