The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

Elon Musk is a huge douche and branding matters.  I don't discount that and I feel that, too. 

And I think I'm more impressed with electric cars as a whole than Tesla specifically, but...

Holy shit.  This technology is fucking amazing.  If we make one more gas powered vehicle, it's too many.  (I'm being only a bit facetious.)  It feels like you're driving the Rockin' Roller Coaster.  There are no gears.  The acceleration is insane.  The vehicle isn't humming underneath you, vibrating.  It's so much smoother and quieter.  It's just a much better vehicle experience.  The fact that it doesn't use gas is even better.

The breaking is kinda weird, since there is no neutral gear and it's feeding the breaking power back into the battery.  It takes some getting used to.

All that said, I am a fan of mechanical things over electric, in things like cars.  I prefer a seat that moves with a handle, for example.  I don't need electric mirrors.  I don't want seat warmers and a bunch of overdesigned systems for things that don't relate to actually driving the vehicle.  Also, I'm not in the market for a car at the moment and I want to let my car fully die out before I move on.  I am excited to see the technology used in more base-model stuff.

But this is the future.  It's just a better experience and after having driven one, it's hard for me to take seriously any naysayers who don't think this will be the standard.  Yet, I talk to a lot of people who seem afraid of it.  "What if there's a hurricane and the power goes out?"  Questions like that...

I'm on my third EV since 2013, and I've driven all of the current Teslas except the Cybertruck.   The EV experience is similar in most offerings; although the acceleration may not be quite as fast in some, it's always pretty quick next to a comparable gas vehicle.

Why do you have 3 cars over the span of 11 years?  Is that a vanity choice or is there a practical reason?

Also, how much "better"...in terms of milage/battery life is the 3rd car vs. the 1st?  Is the tech considerably better over those 11 years?

Dave, what was the scenario that let you drive one?

I was also wondering about Spider switching but expect he leases.

A family member of mine -- we are generally not like-minded.  He is a FOX conservative and almost anti-electric car for environment purposes...thinks that is not "real".  He is also very showy and slick in terms of wealth, where I don't care about status with vehicles.  He's also somewhat of a car guy -- he cares about speed and performance, where I just want to get from A to B reliably and cost-effective.  But he is passionate and knowledgeable and is a smart consumer most of the time.  Anyway, he bought a used Tesla and was showing it off and very proud of it.  I was interested in the tech, so I texted him and was just asking him questions about it and he was happy to tell me all about his charging and costs and stuff. 

The next time I saw him, he was selling me on how great it was and I was just honest with him that most of the stuff he was saying were turn-offs....like how the mirrors automatically fold in when you park and how it can pick you up in front of a restaurant.  And how it makes heads turn with the execs at his job....all shit that I don't care about.  But he insisted that I not only ride in it, but that I drive it.

And he was right.  The thing fuckin' cooks.  There is still too much tech in the non-driving portion of the car for my taste, but the driving is lights out.

The first one (2013 Chevy Volt) was a lease to see how I liked driving electric.  I did like it, so I bought a 2017 Chevy Volt after the three year lease was up.  That car had recurring problems with the infotainment system almost from the beginning, which eventually led to GM buying the car back from me in 2019 shortly after the warranty expired.  I then bought a 2016 Cadillac ELR (basically, the Cadillac version of the Volt) with the money I got from GM.  

However, I'm planning to sell/trade in that ELR later this fall.  "Cadillac service" has been absolutely terrible, the worst of any dealer I've ever used (to start: they've broken unrelated parts on my car multiple times while the car has been in for service).  It's also not very practical; it's a smallish 2-door coupe with a limited trunk, and my other car is a 30-year-old convertible (read: weekend car).  Since I bought the car, I've gotten into snowboarding, so I'm looking at EV options with 4 doors, AWD, and a hatchback.  I don't need a truck or huge SUV, I just need a daily driver that has some reasonable practicality.

I don't know what I don't know, but what are concerns about long-term battery degradation?  What about replacing the battery entirely on old vehicles?  Is any of that viable?

As far as the tech goes, all three of them used the same tech, with the 2013 Volt and 2016 ELR having similar range and the 2017 Volt having a bit more.  To clarify, all three are plug-in hybrids (PHEVs), where you get 35/37/53 miles (respectively) of electric range, and then the car switches to gas after that.  In practice, this means that my daily commute to and from work is all-electric, but it'll switch to gas for longer trips (e.g. to San Francisco or Sacramento).

There's a site called VoltStats that was able to pull your car's information from GM's OnStar service and track your data (until GM turned off that functionality in 2021).  You can see the stats for my cars there (keep in mind the ELR had 30k miles when I bought it, most of which seems to have been on gas):

2013 Volt (https://www.voltstats.net/stats/details/2834#achievementTab)
2017 Volt (https://www.voltstats.net/stats/details/7729#achievementTab)
2016 ELR (https://www.voltstats.net/elr/stats/details/12734)

I didn't/haven't noticed any battery degradation on these, but PHEVs are set up in a way to limit degradation more than battery-only EVs (BEVs).  In any case, I don't know that battery degradation is a big problem other than on the first-generation Nissan Leaf (which had air-cooled batteries).

I expect replacing the batteries would be prohibitively expensive, similar to replacing the engine in a car, but I'm not that worried about it.  When the Prius came out, lots of people insisted that you'd spend more on replacing batteries than you saved in gas costs, but after 25 years of (conventional) hybrids on the road, I think we all know that's not even close to true.  It's worth noting that the feds require an 8-year/100,000 mile battery warranty on all BEVs; in CA, it's 10-year/150,000 miles.

I've got nothing against EV cars but I don't want to be forced into them and damn sure don't until they are actually a better option. They are fast .... kind of like slot cars. One of my good friends has a Mercedes that is electric and he loves to show off the acceleration. Harley even has an electric bike which is very fast but it doesn't ride like a Harley and that matters. they are a ways off from making trucks that perform well enough to pull trailers and such. Heck ... even the Ford CEO bailed on his cross country trip once he realized how difficult it is to get a charged and get back on the road.

It seems pretty clear to me that they are the better option now.  What change are you waiting for?

There isn't an option to pull any of my trailers, my boat, etc. There isn't an option that will let me drive 800 miles with minimal stops. Hell ... there isn't a car an EV car on the road cheaper to operate over the long run. I can't tell you how many autos we have put well over 200,000 miles on. That would be pretty damn expensive as far a batteries go. We don't live in town and put over 20 miles on a vehicle just to get fast food.

On another note ... there is a WaWa down by Disney that constantly has back-ups for the chargers and charging takes a while to begin with. I know at Buckees it's typically the same. On our last trip my wife and I stopped by a Bucees. We literally went inside, got food, came out and ate it, and the same car was waiting to be charged. That seems absolutely crazy to me.

Like I said there isn't EV motorcycle that rides like a Harley so that's not even a debate.

I've driven a tesla. The speed and accelaration are fun, but thats it. Absolutley nothing about an electric car is appealing to me. I agree with Dave that i prefer analog controls. My truck has a touch screen and thats even too much for me. I dislike it most times as its finicky. I miss clunky buttons and switches. They break less in my expirience. Some of the EV trucks have amazing capabilities to pull LBS but cannot go the distance. I'd rather put 500K on a duramax cause i know it'll make it the distance and take 10 minutes to fill and go when need be. Same with my 1500. I like to travel. If i can't "fill up" in 5 mins then I won't be buying. I also prefer to feel whats under my feet. I do believe EVs have a place though. The EV amazon trucks and vehicles like it are great for what they are used for. No need for gas when they have predetermined routes. I think there is a place for both. Pushing these on folks I believe will fail. Atleast in my lifetime.

Not sure how much your boat or trailers weigh, but Ford claims the F150 Lightning can tow up to 10,000 lbs.  That said, towing over long distances is certainly a concern, and a shortfall of the available EVs.

Outside of towing, though, you can buy a PHEV like the RAV4 Prime, which will give you ~50 miles of electric range for day-to-day driving and can switch to gas if you need to go farther than that.  If you wanted to drive 800 miles, it would be functionally identical to a gas vehicle, but outside of such trips you would be using little-to-no gas at all.

This can depend on the price of electricity in your region, whether or not you have solar panels, etc, but generally speaking, most EVs are significantly cheaper to operate than their gas equivalents.

The idea that EVs will go through batteries quickly enough to offset fuel savings is a claim that was widespread 20 years ago during the heyday of the Prius.  It has long since been disproven in that case; I'm sure many of you know Prius (or other gas hybrid) owners who have never had to replace their hybrid batteries.

While it is true that modern EVs have only been around since 2010 and we haven't seen their 20-year results yet, the vast majority of them have experienced very little battery degradation.  (A notable exception is the first-gen Nissan Leaf which used air-cooled batteries, but many of those have been replaced under the federally-mandated battery warranty I previously mentioned.)  And while we can talk about the potential for battery failure, it's worth mentioning that there are many other parts of an EV drivetrain that are dramatically less likely to fail compared to a gas vehicle (e.g. transmission).

Ultimately, the cost savings on an EV essentially boils down to the price of your electricity (including whether you already have solar panels).  For most people who can charge overnight at home, the cost of operating an EV is significantly less than the cost to operate an equivalent gas vehicle.

Don't go by those things. That's no wind on a perfect day and doesn't include stopping. Stopping is actually the biggest deal when towing. Rule of thumb is less than 80% of that for decent driving and that doesn't take in to affect whether the conditions of the trip ... meaning highway, mountains, bad weather etc.

My 2015 F-150 struggled mightily pulling my motorcycle trailer in the mountains and it was rated for over 12,000 pounds. I even had to put on sway bars to help it as it bounced my back end around.  My trailer, with bikes and luggage are probably just over 6000 lbs. It did it but I averaged about 6 miles to the gallon. I bought a diesel F250 at 15000 lbs and now get about 15-17 in the mountains and you can't feel the trailer being pulled. Torgue and poser matter when pulling.   

The Lightning has significantly more torque and power than the gas F150, though that's not really the issue; the issue is range, which is indeed a problem.  How far are you normally towing your trailer?

About 700 miles to the mountains depending on where we are going. Taking my boat to the coast and back is about 180 miles ... again depending on where I'm going. I've had this truck 2 years this past February and have almost 40K miles on it. Crazy part is it only gets used on nights and weekends as I have a work truck.

There may be specific cases to very specific lifestyles or hobbies where it presents an actual problem, but most of the charging anxiety seems to be unfounded paranoia.

Maybe. The only personal experiences I know about have both EV autos and gas powered autos as a choice. We'll see if that changes with experience. One thing for sure is car manufacturers have significantly reduced production due to low sales.  It seems like Hybrid is the new thing. Around 2015 a guy I worked with had a Hyundai Sonata Hybrid and had a ton of issues. I'm sure they have gotten better by now.

My close friend has had a hybrid for a long, long, long time now -- probably 10 years+. Honda Civic, I believe and it's been a good car for her.

But I don't really think they make much sense anymore.  Unless you're in a situation where you're going to NEED gas, which I don't think is hardly any people, since chargers are prevalent, it seems like you might be getting the worst of both worlds.  It was a great bridge technology.  But there are enough full electrics on the road that I think that's the way to go, if you're going to do it at all.

You should specify which type of hybrid you're talking about.

First, you have the conventional gas hybrids (HEVs) like the original Toyota Prius: vehicles that cannot plug in, but store some braking energy in batteries and use that energy to improve fuel economy.  There is no meaningful downside to this technology; the early worries about "replacing batteries" has proven unfounded.  If you can drive a gas car, you can drive a hybrid version of the same car, and the upcharge for the hybrid version is usually pretty small.

Next, you have plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) like the Chevy Volt or the Toyota RAV4 Prime.  These cars can drive locally all-electric, rarely using gas at all (I went over 8500 miles in 9+ months on a single tank of gas in my old Volt).  On paper, these vehicles have two separate drivetrains which increases complexity and potential for failure, but in my experience it actually worked like a redundancy; when I had problems with the EV drivetrain, the car simply switched over to gas-only.  I had a Volt for almost 7 years, I know several other people who've had them, and I never saw anyone have a failure that made the car undriveable.

The primary downsides of PHEVs are 1) they are significantly more expensive (this can be offset with rebates if the car qualifies) and 2) you have to be able to charge your car overnight to see any savings in fuel costs.  #2 is the biggest obstacle towards EV adoption in America as a whole; too many people park on the street or in surface lots, and cannot reasonably charge their car every night.

Chargers are not prevalent for traveling Dave. 

Chargers are quite prevalent for travel if you have a Tesla, and most of the other EVs will have access to the Tesla Supercharger network by the end of next year.

I don't think that's true.  I believe that they are.  This was a fair concern 10 years ago, but I really do think they're pretty widely available.

It's become very popular on social media to dunk on the Tesla, specifically the Cybertruck.

And a lot of the things that are pointed out are exactly the kind of thing that annoy me about tech like this.  Apparently, things like the windshield wiper sensor are overly complicated.  There are auto closing trunk sensors and stuff like that.  I don't mind that cars have those things for people who want them ... I just don't.  I can turn my wipers on when it's raining, should I choose.  I can close my own trunk.  I just feel like this stuff invites breakage and complication.

The Cybertruck is a deeply stupid (and dangerous!) vehicle, designed by a self-absorbed moron.

In an effort to make things safer for dumb people they are making Collision-avoidance system's mandatory in a few years. The one in my Dodge work truck sucks balls. If you get close to anything it slams on the brakes. No wonder my neck is hurting  all the time.

Such systems wouldn't be needed (or would be needed less) if we weren't designing every truck to have a hood height at 4 feet+.  Trucks are far more deadly to pedestrians now than 20 years ago because they can't roll up on the hood anymore when struck; instead, they are simply plowed under.

https://www.dailydot.com/news/mercedes-15-dollars-for-10-percent-charge/?utm_source=flipboard&utm_content=DailyDot%2Fmagazine%2FTrending+on+TikTok

I didn't go looking for this but I thought the timing of it coming across was interesting.

Using fast chargers puts you right back at gas fuel costs.  The fuel savings from an EV is from charging overnight at home, and if you can't do that (or, say, charge at work for a reduced rate) then EVs are not cheaper to operate than gas vehicles.  Or as I said earlier:


Fast chargers exist to make long car trips possible in an EV, not to make them cheap.

I'm all for the stuff that is tech based to make driving safer/faster.  It's the minutia of things that are automated that don't need to be that's annoying.  It's a small battle I've fought my whole life.  I don't like things that happen automatically that I don't want to.  I'd rather risk having the inconvenience of doing it manually than the annoyance of it not working when I want to, working when I don't want it to, or breaking due to overcomplication.

This isn't just cars.  It's computer OSes, it's TV menus...it's all of it.