The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I have to say it is down right funny listening to famers who voted for Trump whine because the illegal immigrants they hire to pick their fields aren't showing up to work due to fear of being deported. 

It's really simple.   Give those jobs to prison inmates.   

While I can appreciate that the immediate & obvious conservative solution is "Just force someone to do it," I don't think you've considered the logistics of having prison workers in wide, open fields.

Let me see if I can put this in a way that might illuminate the problem: imagine if we sentenced illegal immigrants to "working in the fields."  Do you see the issue with that solution now?

I don't see any issues with it at all.   They'd be going through security screenings before even being considered for a job like this.   They'd under the supervision of guards.  They'd be paid a decent wage that can be put on their books so they can buy their toiletries/commissary/etc... and as the money starts to accumulate, it can be given to them when they get released so they can get started on a new life.

Florida Department of Corrections actually has such work programs but they do more than work farm fields.

There are roughly 2.5 million farmworkers in these United States.
There are roughly 2 million prisoners at all levels combined (federal, state, local).

You are not replacing the farmworker labor force with the minimum security "Club Fed" types, who would likely decline anyway; this work is legitimately difficult.
It would have to be all hands on deck, and it would definitely have to be compulsory.  And the number of guards you would have to hire to monitor wide open fields would make this program incredibly expensive.

The idea that we can return to a slave economy (but just replace "slaves" with "prisoners") is nuts.  One of the reasons why you were able to have slave overseers in the fields all day is because air conditioning didn't exist; if you think 21st-century correctional officers are going to be willing to stand around in the hot sun all day monitoring prisoner-workers at a massive scale, you're delusional.

I can play with AI too.   Of the 2.5 million farm workers, only about 15% of them are actual illegals (or suspected).   

Stop throwing out numbers to support your TDS.

Hilarious that you think I would rely on AI for any facts, or that web search hasn't existed for 30+ years before AI.

If it's "only 15%" then why are these whining MAGA farmers being brought to their knees?

Because it not.  Dept of Labor says between 40% and 53%.  The USDA's best estimate is 42%.  Another complaint of these farmers is when they hire replacements, the replacements are untrained.   Turns out harvesting crops requires training and skills.  So it is not just a matter of plugging in some unskilled workers.

[mod note: accidentally edited this post on accident]

But Sibster asked Elon Musk's MechaHitler (https://www.npr.org/2025/07/09/nx-s1-5462609/grok-elon-musk-antisemitic-racist-content) AI and it said that Actually There Aren't That Many Undocumented Farmworkers.  So who can really say either way?

I also doubt he is very concerned about whether the slaves prisoners are properly skilled.  The point is that we can force them to do it and they can't say no, which is the conservative solution to many a problem.

You keep referring to them as slaves.   Slaves are being forced into labor against their will when they haven't done anything wrong.   You can't label an inmate that.   Inmates broke the law.   They aren't in prison to be judged.  That has already been done at that point.  They are in prison to be kept.   

Slavery was not abolished for and is legal for inmates.

It's really simple.  Don't break the law and you won't have to worry about hard labor.

I am referring to forced labor as "forced labor."

You should be aware that after slavery was outlawed by the 13th Amendment, many former Confederate states rushed to enact vagrancy laws (https://www.floridatimeline.org/timeline/1866-adoption-of-black-codes-and-vagrancy-act-of-1866/), where these newly freed (and therefore "unemployed") former slaves attempting to migrate away would be arrested and convicted of "vagrancy," punishable by... 12 months of indentured servitude to the highest bidder, of course.  So your "It's not slavery, it's punishment for criminals" trope is nothing new.

Even more damning is that you, presumably a capitalist, have decided that the only free-market solution to this problem is to force people to work these farms for pennies on the dollar.  There are, of course, two other options:

1) Legalize the existing immigrant farm workers and simplify a path to citizenship to create & maintain a robust pool of immigrant farm workers, willing to (cheaply) do a job that American citizens will not

OR

2) Farms increase their wages until the jobs become attractive enough for American citizens to be willing to work them, which would then cause the price of food to increase dramatically

Of course, the "Fuck Off We're Full" contingent of this country will never allow #1, so instead we'll get #2.

Once again, you assume without asking.   I never said pennies on the dollar.   You're assuming they work for 40 cents an hour like most prison jobs pay.   Not the case here.  They need to be paid at least minimum wage to work a job like this.   Then they will have money to get started once they are released.   

"How dare you assume 'prisoners' would be paid 'prison wages' (even though I said absolutely nothing indicating otherwise)"

Even minimum wage would be "pennies on the dollar" compared to what you would have to pay citizens to work these farms, which is why you have to use forced labor in the first place.

The amount paid to the slave labor prisoners is tiny compared to the cost of guarding, transporting, housing (many farms are not next to a prison). 

Most prisoners already have a prison job (that doesn't require leaving the prison compound).

While I would support the idea of requiring all prisoners to be paid min wage so they have a way to land on their feet when released rather than needing to resort to theft to eat, I doubt "the build a wall" crowd would support such a measure. 

For context, in the 1940s POWs in the USA who worked were paid 80 cents a day.  Eighty years later prison labor is paid on average 86 cents per day.   

In reality, farm hands get paid way less than minimum wage in money.   They get their housing and food taken care of though.  Same thing with ranch hands.   

In this case, you pay the inmates minimum wage, and of course the prison is taking care of their housing and food.

The solution is to make getting an H2-A visa easier.  And to stop arresting people who legally have an H2-A visa. 

Even if this were accurate (and it's not), you still have to FORCE slaves prisoners to do this job because American citizens won't (with that pay+benefits).

They broke the law.   End of story.

You think you're arguing for punishing criminals.  But the actual argument you are making is that the free market cannot support the American farm industry, and so we must use forced labor to artificially keep the prices low.

You know, like the Confederacy.

The difference is, the Africans who were hauled over here didn't break any laws.   Neither did the Israelites in ancient Egypt.

Like Joe Arapaio said, the soldiers who fought in Iraq and Afghanistan lived in those conditions and they didn't break any laws either.   So STFU and do your time.

Again, whether or not the prisoners deserve their lot is not the point.
If the farm industry REQUIRES forced labor to maintain competitive pricing, it is not a viable industry in the United States.

Kind of off topic but it does relate to the farming industry. Does anyone here watch Clarkson's Farm on Prime? Top Gear's Jeremy Clarkson really reveals how difficult farming can be and I'm not talking about the physical aspects. Regulations and government officials are choking them out. If he wasn't rich, he would have filed bankruptcy as he is constantly losing money because of what he can and can't do. For instance, badgers cause bovine tuberculosis in cattle but you cannot touch them or do anything to harm them. It causes whole herds to be destroyed but you cannot protect them. Crazy.

How exactly is a hobby farm in the UK whose entire business model is built on creating drama for the camara (not actual agricultural products) the least bit relevant to US commercial agricultural?   

His "hobby" farm is 1000 acres. Less than 10% of our farms are as big or larger. It was a working farm when he bought it. He didn't just plant some beans in his backyard.

It's size doesn't matter.  It isn't being run like farm by a farmer.  It is being run like someone read a book on homesteading who jumps around to whatever project strikes their fancy. He is a lot closer to the homesteader that complains that after buying chickens, the necessary equipment and their feed it would have been cheaper to just buy eggs at the store, than an actual chicken farmer.  He is just doing it at a larger scale. 

And as it isn't a US farm it is a really horrible model for US regulations.

This is the equivalent of pretending that Pawn Stars represents the normal operation of a typical London pawn shop.   

The studies done during the first two decades of the century (when badgers were being trapped and killed to "stop the spread of bovine tuberculosis") showed that not only did badger culling NOT reduce bTB, it made the problem worse.  This is why you can't just kill the badgers: they already tried that solution and it didn't work.

But just like in the US where you have conservatives complaining about "protected smelt" (with no interest in why they became protected), Jeremy Clarkson is going to complain that he can't just kill all the badgers to Solve The Problem.

Well smart guy, they made him kill a fully pregnant mother only to find out she, nor her baby, had TB when they did the autopsy. The government has no idea what they are doing because it's office guys making the decisions and not the farmers. The TB testing procedure is absolutely stupid. It's kind of like when keyboard warriors solve all the problems of the world on a message board but accomplish nothing in real life. hahaha

The government is really good about mugging farmers and small business owners.   They always have been, regardless of who is in office.

Clarkson is not a farmer, he certainly is not a veterinarian or expert on how the disease spreads.  He is a TV presenter.  Viewing him as an expert instead of the scientists with PhDs who have spent decades studying the issue is exactly the "kind of like when keyboards warriors solve all the problems"  And that is the MAGA method.  Fauci is a fraud, but RFK Jr. is a medical expert.   The NPS doesn't know how to manage the reflecting pond, but Trump's pool guy does.  Trump know more about war than the generals.   

Have you ever made an argument that wasn't a straw man argument? You change everything to extremes and pretend you are saying something. That is so boring and why I seldom respond to you. Honestly, it's like talking to middle schooler.

That is rich coming from someone who introduced a *UK celebrity farm* to a thread about *Trumps's polices impact on US farms.*  Previously a review of a movie into a gripe about how Christians are being persecuted in the USA.  And another thread about Trump limiting what religious are recognized by the military into defining specifically what should and should not be viewed as Christian.  If there is anyone on this board who likes to divert and create strawman arguments it is you.

    

We seem to be trapped in the following cycle:

1) You offer up some claim currently traveling the conservative grievance circuit
2) We refute it, usually by citing actual experts in the relevant field
3) You accuse us of being biased or out of touch while completely ignoring the facts presented against your position

In this particular case, Jeremy Clarkson IS a hobbyist farmer who is far less knowledgeable about bTB (and how to prevent its spread) than the "office guys" making the decisions.

This is what I mean ... arguing semantics is dumb and boring. It was a working farm prior to Clarkson buying it. He retained the services of Howard Pauling, the manager of the farm, until he retired as well. He then hired the top hand, Kaleb Cooper, to manage the farm. Regardless of who owns it, the farm is being run by professional farmers. Kaleb has been working on farms since he was 13 years old, just not in front of cameras. 

Bullshit.  Prior to this TV show the farm grew a rotation of barley, rapeseed and wheat on a contract basis. If he continued doing that it would be a boring profitable farm.

Rather he buys sheep, cattle, opens a farm stand, gets an act passed in parliament to go around the permitting process, opens a restaurant, he digs a pond, pigs, mushrooms, obscure crops, bees, owls, and a pub.  In just four years.  That is not farming that is a homesteader with severe ADHD and too much money.  No business would be profitable if managed in such a chaotic way.  

It is not semantics to say that Clarkson farm is a less accurate representation of American agriculture than Gilligan's Island is to survive a shipwreck.  

But more importantly the entire introduction of him was nothing more than you purposefully sabotaging the topic of the thread.   Clarkson's TV show has zero relevance on Trump's policies impact on the American farm.  That was  the topic of discussion. 

You guys know an awful lot about the farm of someone I have never heard of.

I'm still working on the livestock roster of Old McDonald's farm.


...e-i-e-i-o

Jeremy Clarkson is a British TV personality that was the longtime host of a popular car show, Top Gear.  Think of someone like Bob Ross (The Joy of Painting), Bill Nye The Science Guy, or Bob Vila (This Old House).

But if you're not a car guy, you would have no reason to know of him.

I've got some great news for you... our glorious Lords of Capitalism are already on it (https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/news/2023/jun/22/arizona-exploiting-prisoner-labor-profit/):

A new constitutional amendment proposed to Congress in June 2023 would remove the exception for prisoners to the U.S. ban on slavery. The effort follows a report from Arizona in December 2022, which found that private firms in the state used over two dozen undocumented migrant workers they could never legally hire but for the fact they were incarcerated by the state Department of Correction, Rehabilitation and Reentry (DCRR).

Though patently hypocritical – Arizona has adopted severe penalties for firms that take it upon themselves to hire undocumented workers – the program is legal under another state law allowing enforced labor of prisoners.

“Using migrant individuals who are unable to work legally here, that seems like just a violation of the law,” explained Arizona State University School of Law Professor Michael Selmi, an employment law and civil rights expert. “If they are migrants who are detained, then it would fall under the prison labor law in Arizona.”

Published by the Arizona Republic, the report counted 26 DCRR prisoners with detainers filed by federal Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE). The detainers render them ineligible for employment in the U.S. Moreover, a 2007 state law makes any potential employer criminally liable for failure to check their work eligibility. But the law exempts employers renting prisoner labor from DCRR or its for-profit subsidiary, Arizona Correctional Industries.

Many Arizona firms have taken advantage of this opportunity, including brands like Hickman’s Egg Farms, Taylor Farms, NatureSweet and Televerde. After hiring DCRR-supplied workers for as little as $4.75 an hour – one-third minimum wage – the firms claimed not to know whether any undocumented workers were among them. DCRR couldn’t say either, though it noted that 10,000 undocumented prisoners are currently working assignments inside state prisons where they are incarcerated.

---

Yes, that is the very same Taylor Farms at the center of the recent cyclospora ("explosive diarrhea") outbreak.

In other words: why pay undocumented immigrants market wages to work farms, when you can pay incarcerated immigrants one-third of minimum wage for the same work?  And then when they finish their "sentence," they are deported.

You break the law, you pay the price.   You break the law as a non-citizen guest in our home, you get kicked out.