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Maybe I'm just old.

But there used to be a time where both major political parties fell all over themselves to prop-up Israel.  There wasn't any political room not to.  And I remember like one person who stood up to the idea that MAYBE we shouldn't be sending all this money over there.  I can't even remember who it was, but I think she was like...leaving Congress or something.  It made news and her stance was pretty tame.

And now, both parties seem to have flipped, if not for the leadership, certainly the voters.  The online left fucking hates Israel.  But so does the online right.  There's a little bit of different flavors of hate (genocide of gaza vs. Jews control the banks), but they're connecting in a "horseshoe politics" kind of way.  I've just never seen anything like it.

Also, it's an issue that I'm not really confident in talking about, because I find it very hard to get pinned down by words where I don't truly understand their meaning.  Things like "zionist" and "genocide" -- I think where you stand on the issues can simply come down to how you define those two words and whether or not you're confident in using them.  And depending on who you ask, those meanings change.

Also, I think that there's a blur between hating Netanyahu and his right-wing takeover --> not wanting to financially support another country in general --> hating the concept of Israel as a country that should be --> hating Israelis --> hating Jews in general.  I can see the slide on the spectrum happening in real time.

Anyway...it's just kind of wild how fast the public has turned and I don't think that politicians of either party have truly caught up to the voters yet.

The American right is drifting more overt Nazi and white nationalist so Evangelical Christian Zionism is fading. So that’s why the right hates them.

Whatever you want to call it, genocide, ethnic cleansing or just mass murder it’s horrific and no amount of propaganda can hide it.

That said Israel is there and I’m not in favor of expulsion for Israelis but they must be pressured to start rectifying this atrocity and people must be held accountable.

The nutballs Candace Owens and Tucker Carlsons of the right are leading the hatred and they aren't really conservatives. They just want clicks and will say anything about anyone regardless of truth.

If you know anything about Israel, the people there have lived in fear for more than my lifetime. I knew an Arab Muslim born in Egypt and raised in France. To most people, he was a nice guy. As I got to know him pretty well, he openly revealed his hatred for Israel and justified the killing of kids, mothers, and even babies as he wanted them eradicated from this planet. No amount of peace talks will ever change his mind. The only way Israel survives is if they try and weed out the 30% of the Palestinians and other Arabs who want them dead at no cost. Unfortunately that cost is innocent lives of the people they hide behind.

According to Google ... Terrorist attacks on them have taken place both within Israel as well as internationally. They have been directed at both military and civilians of many countries. Tactics have included hostage taking, plane hijacking, boat hijacking, stone throwing, improvised explosive device, knife attacks, shooting sprees, attacks with vehicles, car bombs and assassinations. In the 1990s, groups seeking to stop Israeli-Palestinian negotiations began adopting suicide bombings, predominantly targeting civilians, which later peaked during the Second Intifada. In recent decades, violence has also included rocket attacks on Israeli urban centers. The October 7 attacks resulted in massacres and hostage-taking.

Suicide bombings constituted 0.5% of Palestinian attacks against Israelis in the first two years of the Second Intifada, though this percentage accounted for half of the Israelis killed in that period. As of 2022, a majority of Palestinians, 59%, believe armed attacks against Israelis inside Israel are an effective measure to end the occupation, with 56% supporting them.

Antisemitism is nothing new. Took a little pause on it in the middle of the 20th and the world collectively said, "maybe we went a little too far this time"  But didn't really reverse course.  Even in 1960 when it was proven beyond any doubt that Argentina was harboring and protecting Nazi leaders, the world's response was to condemn Israel for bringing the architect of the Holocaust to justice rather than condemn Argentina for protecting Nazis.   

It didn't bother "the left" when Jessie Jackson called NYC "Hymietown"  Which is no less offensive then calling Harlem n*****ville. Antisemitism is nothing new.  Blaming Israel for Oct 7th war, is just the latest incantation of it. 

Israel's overt partisan shift towards the GOP (e.g. Netanyahu speaking to Congress to denounce the Obama Administration) has eliminated a lot of the willingness on the left to simply accept their claims about dangerous Palestinians at face value.  30 years ago, Israel might have been able to get unflinching bipartisan approval of their ethnic cleansing campaign in Gaza; now, their actions are evaluated much more critically.

In addition, Netanyahu is pretty openly fascist.  Like Trump, he needs to stay in power to stay out of prison.  "Democracy" in Israel has been backsliding even faster than in the US.

I agree with a lot of your post, but then this sentence kind of falls flat for me.  I think you can evaluate and blame a government for a war without it being an attack on its people, whether you're correct or incorrect on your assertion.

Blaming Oct 7 on Israel is like blaming 9/11 or Pearl Harbor on the USA.  I do realize there are some people in this country who blame Lincoln for starting the Civil War or Biden for Jan 6.  But that is just as delusional as blaming Israel for Oct 7.

^^^ With respect, those are 4 ridiculous examples...

You have mentioned this multiple times.  That is an awful lot of mileage to get out of "the left" over a statement from 40 years ago, made by a person who has never held any official elected office, and whose electoral history peaked at "lost a Democratic presidential primary by a wide margin."

At that same moment in time, "the left" didn't believe in a right for same-sex marriage...  which tells us nothing about "the left's" position on LGBT rights today.

I "blame 9/11" on the Al-Qaeda extremists who flew the planes into the buildings. But I also blame George W. Bush for recklessly disregarding the multiple intelligence reports he received about Bin Laden planning a strike in the US, and I blame those in the US who used the specter of 9/11 to lie us into an illegal war with Iraq.

Similarly, I "blame October 7" on the Hamas extremists who kidnapped and murdered hundreds of innocent civilians.  But I also blame Netanyahu for ignoring the warnings he received about a planned Hamas strike, and I blame those in Israel who have used October 7 as an excuse to implement a genocidal campaign of ethnic cleansing across Gaza and the West Bank.

Candace Owens and Tucker Carlson are definitely conservatives in 2026 America.  They are more conservative than Donald Trump, whom you have voted for multiple times.  You are trying to disown them because you find their hatred - the same hatred they have been spewing for over a decade - to be inconvenient when aimed at people you consider allies.

Now, are they conservative grifters who go where the money is?  Sure... but so is Trump, so is JD Vance, so is Ron DeSantis, so is Sean Hannity, etc.  And to be honest, any real conservative with an actual system of morals would have abandoned the movement the moment Donald Trump took over.  Anyone who still calls themselves a "conservative Republican" in America today is necessarily a dishonest sellout, willing to discard whatever so-called morals they had while desperately grasping for more power.

Compare the casualty rate since 1948 between Israeli’s and Palestinians, it’s not even close. Whose killing who and whose been doing it for 7 decades?

Then compare the number of Japanese civilians killed by the Americans vs Americans civilians killed by the Japanese in WW2. 

Utterly ridiculous comparison but one can and should criticize American fire bombing it civilian areas and using the nukes.

I don't blame the attacks on Oct 7th on Israel at all. 

But I don't agree with their continued assault on an entire population in Gaza, especially with our money.  I don't think that's a crazy position.

Hamas is the worst.  But the tactics in the name of finding them has gone too far.

You are so funny and will distort anything to try and make a point. I will, and have said several times that Trump is not a conservative. He has some conservative views but he is just as much a liberal in many ways. Ron DeSantis is a conservative. Marco Rubio is a conservative. Ted Cruz is a conservative and Thomas Massie is ultra conservative but many in the republican party are not.

The only way to stop a people who will stop at nothing to eliminate you is to eliminate them. It's as if you guys purposely ignore the fact like 1/3 of Muslims want all Christians and Jews dead and have no problem dying to accomplish this. If you knew 1/3 of your friends were trying to kill you but you didn't know which ones you would find new friends or possible choose to have none.

CF, you don't seem to apply the same logic to the percentage of Israelis who think all measures are justified in "dealing with the Palestinian threat." Instead of condemning violence, it's this sort of "Muslims are terrorists so ethnic cleansing is a reasonable response" vortex.

As long as Israel is an apartheid state, there is no way to come to a peaceful solution.

I am shocked by this.

I don't even know how to respond to it.  It seems like a never-ending spiral of death and war.

It is and it is Biblical whether you want to believe it or not. Goes all the way back to Abraham and his two sons. One born of an Egyptian servant (Ishmael) and one born out of promise from God (Isaac).   (Genesis 17:20): God Said Ishmael will be a wild donkey of a man, his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility towards all his brothers.”

I know how you respond to it.  You deny it.  You pretend like there weren't a cheering jubilation throughout Gaza on Oct 7.  You claim that Hamas isn't supported by the vast majority of Gaza and are some sort of separate unpopular group.  You pretend that weapon bearers are innocent. You condemn Israel for blowing up truck containing explosives because it was labeled as containing food.  You condemn Israel for blocking crates of weapons because a Hamas sympathizer claims it was medical supplies.  You pretend that the charter of the elected government of Gaza doesn't call for genocide of all Jews in the middle east.  

I imagine the Afrikaners in South Africa had similar rationalizations for why maintaining apartheid was an existential crisis for their people.

Clearly Stephen Miller and Donald Trump agree with such logic, which is why over 99% of asylum applicants admitted to this country in 2026 are white people from South Africa.

This is a recent thing and they aren't admitted by race but country of origin. Many more Christians were killed for being Christian there last year than came to the US. In all, less than 20% of the US's immigrant population is white. In fact, Mexico leads the way by a large margin.  

It is absolutely (https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-trump-administration-dismantling-refugee-and-asylum-programs) by race:

In October 2025, [Trump] restarted the refugee program with a historically low annual cap of 7,500 refugees, prioritizing white Afrikaners from South Africa. Of the 4,499 refugees admitted by this administration before April 2026 (the most recent data available), 99.9 percent were white South Africans.

But this is what we are now: a pro-apartheid society, both for bygone regimes like Afrikaner South Africa (where Elon Musk and Peter Thiel are from) and current ones like Israel.  Trump and his goons would love to do here what Israel does in Gaza and the West Bank; Minnesota saw this firsthand.

ETA: Whether you want to phrase it as "He's only accepting white people, but you have to be from South Africa" or "He's only accepting people from South Africa, but you have to be white," either way it's a race-based refugee admissions policy.  The idea that Trump is "saving persecuted Christians" is absolute nonsense, as South Africa has a higher percentage of Christians (85% (https://census.statssa.gov.za/assets/documents/2022/P03014_Census_2022_Statistical_Release.pdf)) than the US (62% (https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/)).

--> not wanting to financially support another country in general.

That's the real issue here. I don't give half a shit about the politics of any of it. The fact is that it's none of our business. We shouldn't be financing other people's wars. That goes for Israel, Ukraine, and anyone else that thinks we are their piggy bank. Ron Paul was right, we need to mind our own business.

Honestly, I don't think people would care about another rather distasteful middle eastern conflict if the cost of living was lower.

I think it smacks of hypocrisy and elitism to provide another country money for war while we're struggling with affordability here at home.

But the problem with that line of thinking is it cuts both ways: I'm noticing a creeping distaste for helping Ukraine as well. That is more partisan that the Israel issue ahs become, but, mass media (whatever its remaining grip may be) has clearly sided with Ukraine vs against Israel, so it's not 100% shocking that one is more partisan than the other.

That's the thing though. I lean conservative but I'm not picking a side on either one. The only side I'm picking is our side. Too many people on the right defending Israel and too many people on the left defending Ukraine. I don't think that sending billions of dollars to Israel or Ukraine is in our best interest. If other countries want to blow each other off the map, so be it. As long as they don't fuck with us who cares? We can't keep playing the world's police and the world's emergency savings account. If a tsunami or natural disaster hits somewhere, sure send some humanitarian aid. But countries that can't get their shit together and are always at war and always taking money and not improving, fuck 'em. We have our own problems to fix.

Tough call. If we don't play world police, someone else will try to.

I just want the cost of living to go down. If that happens, foreign policy will not be front and center, bc money will not be at the top of everyone's mind.

The original America First movement gained popularity in the aftermath of World War 1, advocating for the US to stay out of world politics and focus on domestic affairs.  They ceased to exist when that approach led directly to World War 2, only two decades after the end of WW1.

Trumpist isolationism will only speed up China's ascension to the dominant world power.  The solution is not to withdraw from world events; the solution is to stop supporting corrupt apartheid regimes.

This is such a hard topic to discuss and depending on where people stand, you get scoffed out of the room.

I am not an isolationist.  I think that supporting Democracy and prevent other countries from takeover is smart, in general.  It's also soft-power in the world and it pays you back.

I am 100% in favor of supporting Ukraine.  Full stop.  They are getting invaded by an aggressor.

With Israel, I'm also in favor of supporting their defense, but the line blurs when they're on the offensive.  And I know the "offense is defense" thing, but there's a point where I'm not about that and we're well past that point.  ...especially on our dime.


And then there's this extra little part where it kind of burns my ass that we don't have socialized medicine but we have enough money to support countries that do have socialized medicine.

Let me make sure I have this straight.

You are okay with Israel shooting down the rockets fired by Hamas into Israel, but not in Israel dropping bombs on the rocket launchers.

You are okay with shooting at the Hamas terrorist while they were in Israel kidnapping civilians, but you are not okay with Israel going into Gaza to rescue the kidnap victims or kill the murderers. 

Do I have that right?

You don't have that right.

Sorry Hoodie, you're not having a discussion in good faith.  I'm here for you when you'd like to have that chat, though. 

How many years of bombing hospitals in Gaza is sufficient to make up for the Israeli deaths on October 7?
Or should it go on indefinitely?

What Hoodie is saying is being acted out and supported across this country. It is just as insane as wanting biological men playing in women's sports to me. Makes no sense.


As long as Hamas is using them for their own purposes. You'd have to ask them how long they plan on hiding behind human shields.

So Israel should continue to bomb hospitals until Hamas has been eradicated?
Not 100 Hamas operatives remaining, not 50, not a dozen... completely gone?

What are the conditions that must exist for the Israeli military to stop bombing hospitals?  Be specific.

it is not about revenge.  It is about preventing Hamas from having the ability to repeat Oct 7.  


Saying you support Israel's right to destroy Hamas's rocket launch sites EXCEPT when those rocket launch sites are next to a daycare center.  Is the exact same thing as you don't support Israel's right to destroy Hamas's rocket launch sites.

Saying you support Israel's right to destroy Hamas's command and control centers, UNLESS that command and control center is located under a hospital. Is the exact same thing as saying Israel can't destroy any of Hamas's command and control centers.

Saying you support Israel's right to return fire on a sniper, UNLESS that sniper is firing from an apartment building, is the exact same thing as saying Israel cannot return fire on snipers.

Saying you support Israel's right to prevent weapons from entering Gaza UNLESS those weapons are in a truck mislabeled as food is the exact same thing as saying you support the free flow of weapons to Hamas.  

Saying you support Israel's right to stop Hamas from transporting weapons around Gaza UNLESS the truck transporting the weapons is mislabeled as an ambulance, is the same thing as saying you support Hamas freely transport weapons around Gaza.  

Saying you support Israel destroying Hamas's terror tunnels, BUT ONLY if they can be destroyed without also destroying civilian infrastructure is the same thing as saying you want the terror tunnels to remain.  

Israel wasn't the one who decided to put ammo depos under hospitals.  The government of Gaza was the one that decided to use all their hospitals and schools as military bases.  When Israel blew up a mortar site next to a daycare center, they weren't targeting a daycare center, they were targeting mortars.  When Israel blew up weapon depos under hospitals, they weren't targeting the hospitals.    

I was pretty specific. When they quit concealing terrorists, coordinating operations, holding hostages, storing weapons, explosives, and ammunition in them then Israel should stop. The truth is, just like Iran, unless boots get put on the ground all citizens are in harm's way because of the actions of those individual terrorists. If you are looking for numbers then you aren't paying attention to what I'm saying.

This is a literal series of strawman arguments.  You're giving me my position and then arguing against a stance I didn't take.  It's not in good faith.  Discuss the topic with the people actually discussing the topic with you.

So basically, after terrorism has been completely eradicated, only THEN will Israel stop committing war crimes.

Do you not see that your argument is reversible?
"The atrocities of Hamas justify all means of response by Israel" is no different than "The atrocities of Israel justify all means of response by Hamas."  The Israel/Palestine conflict did not begin in October 2023.

The reason why we have international treaties that define acceptable actions of war is specifically to avoid this vortex of brutality.  You do not get to commit war crimes because your adversary is Really Evil.  Of course, given that these excuses are frequently coming from the "Torture is actually just fine when we do it" crowd, perhaps this argument is falling on deaf ears.

Yes, we do.  In a nutshell the international treaties basically say: 

1. You can't use civilians as shields. 
2. You can't target civilians; you have to target the militants. 

Just because one party violates the treaty doesn't give the other party free reign to violate the treaties.   

However, and this part is very important and constantly ignored.  If one party does violate the first rule and the second party targets the militants and, in the process, kills the civilians that are being used as shields.  The party that was using civilians to hide behind is the one violating international law not one targeting the militants hiding behind the civilians.     


 
 

To use such an interpretation of "war crimes" is to simply say war crimes do not exist.
"You see the hundreds of mangled corpses in the rubble of the hospital we just bombed?  Some of them were Hamas.  (source: trust me bro)"

Furthermore, Israel's (continually expanding) settlements in the West Bank violate international law.  This has been ongoing for decades.
Again, this conflict didn't start 3 years ago.  So this "Their crimes justify our crimes" reasoning is perfectly circular.

Not at all.  It just correctly points out who is committing the war crimes. 

"Hamas operatives are down there in the rubble somewhere" is indistinguishable from "We will bomb whomever we want in Gaza, whenever we want."

It is worth mentioning that there is a way to address this problem without committing war crimes.  It the same mechanism the US used in the aftermath of 9/11 when invading Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power: international consensus.  But because Israel has basically spent the entire 21st century violating international law with respect to Gaza and the West Bank, this avenue is not available to them; Israel has burned their bridges with most of the international community save the US, and they are frantically burning every bridge with half of the one country that still supports them.

The Netanyahu Administration (and the greater Likud Party as a whole) have chosen to make their cause an explicitly partisan issue by throwing in their lot with the Republican Party, and there will be significant consequences for this choice the next time Democrats are in power.  When that happens, people like Hoodie on the American left are going to have some tough choices to make.  Continued support for fascist apartheid in Israel will likely require supporting fascism in America.

One huge difference between the Afghanistan and Gaza is for the most part neither the Talban nor al Qaeda used their own citizens as human shields.  I doubt this represented a higher concern for their own but rather the difference between mountain and urban warfare.  However, the US most certainly had a policy in Afghanistan that anyone in close proximity of the Talban or al Qaeda is likely aiding them and also a target. 

In Iraq the US maintained a policy that operational security and US service personal safety was more important than civilians and had no qualms about destroying a building occupied both combatants and non-combatants.   

I care pretty much the same for Isrealis and Palestinians...and I care for both of them the same as I do for people in Madagascar (Madagascarians?).  It just doesn't matter to me where they are from, or which work of fiction they swear by. Jewish fiction is the same as Muslim fiction to me, and zealots are zealots are zealots.

For as long as Israel has been there, their citizens have been attacked by whatever the latest extreme Islamist group is called. If that happened here, you can bet they would all be irradiated. It's really silly to me to sit here in the comfort of the US and condemn people who are protecting their citizens the best they can. 

When the US was attacked on 9/11, we didn't start bombing hospitals and starving out civilians in Afghanistan in response.
We achieved international consensus to form a coalition to hold the Taliban accountable for harboring Bin Laden.

This was not an option for Israel after October 7th because Israel has been violating international law for decades with their actions in Gaza and the West Bank, and they continue to do so.

Hoodie, how do you feel about the US-Israeli coalition bombing an Iranian elementary school (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/sep/17/iran-school-bombing-un-mission-us-military-behind-attack), killing 120 children in the process?  Is it as justified as Israel bombing hospitals in Gaza?

The UNs priorities are in a different place now. They are now being run by liberals who whole goal is to fight climate change with our money, relocating Muslims to every country in the World except Muslim countries, and trying to get everyone to agree to a New World Order where they tell you what you can and cannot do.

BTW ... A plane was hijacked today by the co-pilot who stabbed the pilot, and was headed to crash it in Tel Aviv 911 style. Fortunately crew and passengers overpowered the guy and took the plane back. Just another innocent attack on Israel for you I am sure.

What war did not cause collateral damage? It really sucks but that is pretty much a known going into any conflict. Heck, people are dying from friendly fire even.

It’s not a conspiracy theory now to say that Netanyahu knew it was going to happen and allowed it to.

(http://viperbeam.com/forum/skinner_israel.jpg)

I'm guessing that the UN became woke right in between "the Afghanistan War" and "the Iraq War."

I didn't ask what you thought about bombing Iranian schools because I already knew you would rationalize it away, like you do with the rest of Trump's incompetence and malevolence.
I asked what Hoodie thought.

That is the biggest, steamiest pile of horsepoop I've ever read up here on this board...outside of D4L, of course.

Wow...just, wow.

Has nothing to do with defending Trump although you would like to to be. For the record, we shouldn't be in this useless war, and we are paying for it on everything we purchase. We are afraid to put boots on the ground so the best we can hope for is we go back to the way it was. Iran will sign a paper with no intention of honoring it just like they have forever. We didn't win the Revolutionary War or the World Wars by playing it safe. Playing it safe cost us a lot in Vietnam which in turn allowed North Vietnam communism to win. I thought we'd learned that lesson but apparently not.

It sounds like you're saying we lost Vietnam because we wouldn't commit enough war crimes (and to be clear: bombing an elementary school is a war crime).  Perhaps you'd like to clarify.

And your continued excuse-making for the Trump Administration is still weak:

- describing the dead schoolchildren as "collateral damage" would mean the targeting of the school was intentional (so: a war crime)
- comparing it to "friendly fire" would mean it was a mistake, which the Trump Administration has not admitted to

Nah, the UN doesn't care about dead Israelis.  This isn't new.

The UN couldn't bring itself to condemn the murder of Israeli athletes in Munich.

The UN condemned Israeli for bringing Eichmann to justice. Didn't condemn Argentina for harboring Nazis.

The UN should have condemned terrorist attack on Oct 7th immediately.  They refused to do that and didn't saying anything about Oct 7, until they could list greviences with how Israel was going about getting back its hostages. 

The UNRWA aids terrorists. 

It's difficult for Israel to gain traction from the international community on such grievances while Israel continues to violate international law in Gaza and the West Bank.  I would imagine that the UN was similarly unreceptive to any hardship being suffered by Afrikaners in 1980s South Africa.

I would still like to get your opinion on that school bombing (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/sep/17/iran-school-bombing-un-mission-us-military-behind-attack), though.  For a person like yourself that normally opposes the Trump Administration, it must be difficult to reconcile the war crimes that occur when Trump and Netanyahu team up.

*IF* the US military purposefully targeted a school that was not was not also being used as a cover for the Iranian military than that is a war crime.   

But the word 'if' is doing a lot of work in that sentence.  If the commander who ordered the attack mistakenly believed that it was a military target than it is not.  Mistakes happen in wars. 

I am critical of Trump starting the war with Iran, it was unnecessary. If the US was purposefully targeting civilian infrastructure knowing that it was civilian and not military, then I have a problem with that too.   And while I don't trust the Trump administration, I don't trust Iran either.  So, I don't know if this was a war crime or not.  I do know it was a stupid war.  But my hatred of Trump not so blinding that I immediately start trusting Iran. 

If killing over 100 schoolchildren was a "mistake," our government should have said so.  Yet they have not.

I find it amazing that one can readily justify bombing an elementary school If It May Have Been Used As Cover while simultaneously expecting sympathy for Israeli civilian victims.  Again, the reason why we have defined "war crimes" is to prevent this sort of barbaric escalation.  If you can't find a better target than a hospital or an elementary school, then don't strike.

The US military was able to execute the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq without resorting to bombing children.  The Trump and Netanyahu Administrations are choosing to do so because they want to.

Can you just argue a subject once without twisting facts? You said "describing the dead schoolchildren as "collateral damage" would mean the targeting of the school was intentional"?  When you have nothing you have no issue reaching for facts. The literal definition of collateral damage calls it an accident. Webster Dictionary for collateral damage : injury inflicted on something other than an intended target
specifically : civilian casualties of a military operation

There is a huge difference.  On Oct 7 and most attack on Israel the TARGET is purely civilian.  Israel does not hide its weapon depots in schools, hospitals and or houses of worship.   

Israel doesn't target elementary schools.  They will target rocket launch sites that are located on the roof of an elementary school. 

You are smart enough to understand the difference.  You are also smart enough to understand why the rules of war would never work, if placing your rockets next to hospital gave them immunity.  So, spot pretending like you can't understand the difference.   

On October 7, 367 Israeli soldiers (and other security forces) were killed.  Multiple military bases were attacked.

The same rationale you are using to justify bombing schools and hospitals - "Is there Hamas somewhere in the building?" - can be used to justify all sorts of terror attacks.  Again, if Israel had any sort of justifiable reasons for their actions, they would not be an international pariah.  The international community does not buy their weak BS excuses for their repeated violations of international law.

As I already said: the difference between the schoolchildren being "collateral damage" and "accidental victims due to an error" is whether the school building was itself the intended target.

If the school building was NOT the intended target, OR if the US military mistakenly misidentified that building as something other than a school, OR if the weapon guidance systems malfunctioned, or any other ERROR, then all the Trump Administration has to do say so!  It's as simple as saying "We didn't know it was a school, and it was never our intention to harm innocent schoolchildren."  But as you well know, there's no chance Trump or his lackeys will ever admit to a mistake.  So the only answer is It Was Always Part Of The Very Strong And Powerful Plan.

Military bases were not attacked they were bypassed and generally Hamas avoided the IDF.  The Israeli soldiers that died reponed to the attack and placed themselves between Hamas and civilians in an attempt to protect the civilians.  The IDF did NOT use civilians as shields.  To the limited extent that Hamas was targeting the IDF that was an act of war not terrorism.  On Oct 7 the goal of Hamas was to avoid the IDF and kill and capture as many as many civilians as possible.

I am not someone who says everything the other side did is terrorism. 

On 9/11 the hijacking of airplanes was terrorism.  The crashing of airplanes into the WTC was terrorism.  The crashing of an airplane into the pentagon was an act of war, not terrorism.    The fact that civilian employees work at (and died at the pentagon) doesn't make it terrorism. Had the attacks in NYC not occurred and the only that day been on the Pentagon, it would still have justified the US going into Afghanistan as that was an act of war.   





 

Six hours at hands of Hamas - new accounts reveal how Israeli base fell on 7 October (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg7825rk8j9o)

One year on from the 7 October Hamas attacks, tough questions are still being asked within Israel about the deadliest day in its history, when the country's powerful army was caught off guard and swiftly overwhelmed.

The BBC has heard accounts given to families of what happened at one military base that guarded the border with Gaza.

The Nahal Oz base was overrun by Hamas gunmen on the morning of 7 October and more than 60 Israeli soldiers are reported to have been killed - with others taken hostage.

Israel’s military is yet to publish its official inquiry into what happened there that day, but it has already briefed relatives of those killed there, and some have shared those details with the BBC.

This is the closest we have to an official account by Israel’s military of what happened on the day.

In an attempt to further piece together events, we have also spoken to survivors, seen messages from those who died, and listened to voice recordings reporting the attack as it happened, helping to build a picture of the speed and ferocity of the invasion.

The BBC has found:

Suspicious activity was spotted by many soldiers at the base before 7 October, not just the young women whose job it was to monitor border cameras
Soldiers noticed an abrupt stop to Hamas activity in the days before the attack
Many Israeli troops there were unarmed and official protocols had soldiers standing back when under attack, instead of advancing
Some surveillance equipment was either out of action or able to be destroyed by Hamas with ease

The details we have established raise questions - including why so few soldiers were armed at a base so close to the border, why more wasn’t done to respond to the intelligence and warnings that had been received, how it took so long for reinforcements to arrive, and whether the very infrastructure of the base had left those there unprotected.

We put our findings to the IDF, who responded to say it was in the midst of a “thorough investigation into the events of October 7th, including those in Nahal Oz, and the circumstances preceding”.

---

Detailed findings on attacks carried out on and after 7 October 2023 in Israel (https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session56/a-hrc-56-crp-3.pdf)
Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and Israel

27.  According to reports by Israeli sources and testimonies, as well as videos released by Hamas military wing, at least eight Israeli military bases and outposts were attacked on 7 October, among them Zikim, Paga outpost, Nahal Oz outpost, Sufa, Urim, Re’im, Kerem Shalom and Erez Crossing. At least 314 Israeli Security Forces personnel were killed in these and other locations.

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None of my posts should be taken as excusing or sanctioning the actions of Hamas.
My point is that, in the exact same sense I hold the US Armed Forces to a higher standard of conduct than Al-Qaeda or ISIS, I hold the multibillion dollar military of the Israeli government (which is significantly subsidized by US taxpayers) to a higher standard of conduct than Hamas terrorists.  And that standard (for both examples) does not allow for "bombing a school or hospital just because you think some evildoers may be inside."