The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

"i love papa don, but i think he gets most of the blame" .... i agree!

i agree with you TEKGOD except for the part about loving papa don. why do we love him if he is to blame for marino not getting his ring? because of his success in the 70s? that was awesome, but too bad i was born too late to live through those super bowl victories.

we can't keep on revering shula forever. i think don shula was great up until the mid 80s, and then he really screwed over marino by declining in his own ability to coach, and ultimatley is mostly responsible for squandering marino's stunning talent and potential.  i love that olivadotti is in the ring of shame, but why are we all making olivadotti the fall guy and not his boss?? the buck stops with shula. he blew it. for almost ten years!

http://rapidshare.de/files/12203456/rankingdonshula.pdf

allen barra makes a strong case against shula's greatness in this essay from his book "clearing the bases". barra is an intelligent, analytical writer for the wall street journal.

Welcome to the boards Reticent.  When you get a chance, tell us more about yourself in the Roll Call thread that is in the Off Topic Forum. 

Regarding Don Shula, here are my thoughts:

1.  He  wasn't the best at drafting.  He would also spend more time scouting potential free agents rather than drafting the right guy, and would often trade his draft picks for aging veterans. 

2.  He routinely would win 9 - 10 games per year, thereby never netting the high draft picks sorry teams would get.  In all his years, he never drafted higher than 7th (and that was because of the Randall Hill trade).  He also had the mentality that he was a player or two away from winning it all again, and as such, he was scared to tear down the franchise and rebuild.  Making the playoffs now eclipsed winning it all later.

3.  Although he was a tough SOB in the early going, his decline in coaching came after his wife, Dorothy, died in 1992.  That broke him, and he became a softie, especially when be began dating Mary Anne Stephens.  Once that happened, he became a softie and chose not to deal with character issues.  The slide began in 1994 when Mark Ingram bitched about not getting the ball thrown to him enough despite a big win by the Dolphins.  I would've cut the selfish bum on the spot.  Shula didn't and the cancer spread.  By the time 1995 rolled around, it was off the chain.  Guys were begging out of practice claiming they were hurt or skipping it all together.  Guys missed meetings, slept in meetings, and one draft bust was observed JACKING OFF during a meeting. 

We all know how the 1995 season played out.  They went and spent all this money on "me first" mercenaries that were more name than performance and obviously couldn't even get along in the locker room.  It was all unveiled in that playoff debacle at Buffalo when the Bills took a 24-0 lead in the second quarter and players appeared to quit.  This was the season that Dan and Don were supposed to be fitted for Super Bowl rings.  Instead, it ended with Don being fitted for a noose. 

Nuff said.   

That's the ultimate "draft bust".

Pefectly put.

Now, why do people love Shula?  Well,  personally I can't really hate a guy that has only had 2 losing seasons in 32 years of coaching,  6 Super Bowl appearances(1 with Baltimore), 1 NFL championship game appearance, 2 Super Bowl wins and 1 undefeated season.  The game never really passed him by like most coaches who can't adapt to an ever changing NFL, and through most of Marino's years, let Dan call the game.  So putting him in the ring of shame wouldn't really make too much sense,  even with his last 10 years of coaching. (for me at least) 

But like Tommy said,  his draft picks sucked ass, and his faithfulness to the big "O" really screwed this team in the end (no pun intented).  Oh, that and the Buffalo Bills.  But I can't truly HATE Shula for this,  it's not like Miami sucked total ass,  they just weren't good enough. 

Shula the coach?  I revere him.  He was one of the greatest ever.  Bum Phillips (I think it was him) once said of him "He'll take his'n and beat your'n, then he'll take your'n and beat his'n."  I always loved that quote.

Shula the GM?  He should've ridden off into the sunset, triumphant, after the 1983 draft.

Good stuff ThunderGod!  

Shula has been to the Super Bowl 6 times.  Name another coach who has accomplished this feat.  There are 32 teams (give or take a few less over the years) and it's extremely difficult to get to the Big Dance.  People can break down why Marino never got a ring, etc. but the facts are there that Shula was a great coach.   Look at the wins.

It takes great coaching, great players, and a lot of luck to win the Super Bowl.  Injuries play a big part for example.  

Shula tried to bring in a RB when he traded for Bobby Humphrey.  Was it Shula's fault that Humphrey decided to screw up his NFL career with his personal mishaps?  No.  

Shula took a crap team and turned it around in one year.  He will most likely forever be the only NFL coach to guide his team to an undefeated season -- and that was with a backup QB for 10 games.  He has 2 rings.  He's in the HOF.

Well even though I feel he failed to build around Marino after the Marks brothers left, failed to draft, & kept Olivadotti I don't feel like pissing on the man's legacy after all his successes. The man is an icon, the winningest coach in history, & still the coach of the only perfect season football team - regardless if it was before my time or not. Tom Landry his last 3 seasons as head coach all ended with losing records - the Dallas fans dont think of him as a loser. The game just passed him by towards the end of his career I don't think he intentionally meant to screw Marino he just basically did what Wanny did to Ricky. Rode him like a horse & never gave him support. Unlike Wanny he had all the previous success.

BTW, I'd take Marino under Shula than Marino under JJ any day of the week  :D!

I can't remember who it was ... I'm getting old but I will eventually remember... but I listend to someone on the radio the other day. They are a HOFer from the old Colts team. They were going on about how they should have won that Super Bowl against the Jets .... how Shula had them more prepared than ever and so on. He put the loss soley on the players themselves.

I understand that Bubba Smith (Colts player) has claimed that that Super Bowl was fixed, in order to give the AFC a leg up.

i don't want anyone to think that i don't appreciate what shula did for the dolphins franchise, for miami, and for all of us. we have a proud, historic franchise thanks to him. shula was downright awesome in the 70s. i remember being young and reading about the dolphins, and being glad that they had such a great past to learn about. i was born in 75,  but remember wishing i had been born in 72 or 73 to somehow be part of that legacy.

however, my theory is that if we look back at the 80s and 90s -- now with a little more perspective -- we can see that shula squandered one of the greatest talents ever to touch a football.

shula had marino for thirteen seasons. only one year did marino have a season-ending injury. so let's make it twelve seasons. in year two, they go to the super bowl. marino has one of the most amazing seasons of any professional athlete in a major sport. look back and read the articles written about him during or after the 84 season. people were gushing. marino was a god. an unstoppable force.

at that time, do you think anyone would believe you if you told them that not only would marino never win a super bowl, but he would never even *play* in another super bowl??

in fact, marino barely made it to two more conference games in those twelve years with shula, once losing badly to the fifth-seeded patriots in 85 (this game was in the orange bowl, we lost 31-14, and this came after we had beaten the bears on mnf, imagine that super bowl rematch if we hadn't lost...); and the second being when we were blown out by the bills in 92 (also in miami, with thurman thomas and jim kelly coming off injuries, we lost 29-10).

how could this be possible? how could marino end up being so uncompetitive at the championship level? what could have held him back?

i think most people see shula and marino as a great tandem that had some bad luck, in some bad draft picks perhaps, in trusting in olivadotti, in !@#$ thurman thomas, injuries, whatever.

has anyone ever stopped to wonder how marino would have fared with a different head coach/gm team? and i don't even mean bill walsh. has it occurred to anyone that maybe shula got extremely lucky and marino was able to cover up for shula's rapidly deteriorating coaching and managing skills?

i, for one, have the suspicion that shula was holding marino back. they weren't a "great tandem", a merger of equals that just barely wasn't able to close the deal on a title;

on the contrary, i believe shula was a drag on marino's career. shula was the one that benefitted, and rode marino's coat-tails to 8-10 victories a year. he would win soley *because* of marino, not *together* with marino. put more clearly, marino won *despite* shula, not due to any of shula's help.

does anyone else see at all what i am trying to say?

think about this: if you draft marino, and get some decent receivers (because decent is all they would ever get), your passing game is set. all you need to do now, is get together a good running game to support the passing game, and a solid, upper tier defense, and you'll be fighting for the title every year!

how is it possible that in TWELVE years, shula could NEVER get together a decent running game? and could not ever stop other teams with a solid, top notch defense? i mean, towards the end of it, it became laughable. thurman thomas was licking his chops. it was mind-boggling how we would make it to the playoffs just based on marino, and then when it came time to play the real games in the post-season, we were just thoroughly uncompetitive. that is just a massive criticism of the head coach/gm.

(and on an additional note, i think we get to see how much shula wasn't in the same league as gibbs or parcells, who would both win with backup type qbs, during the same time period when shula couldn't even make it to the sb with one of the best qbs ever. instead, shula would lose to levy, and his bills would get beat anyway. so we are talking third tier if you see my logic.)

now as we all get older, without a marquee qb, we see how hard it is to find a good qb to win us games. they just don't come every day. think how happy the pats are with brady, or pitt with ben, most other teams are just lost, drifting, hoping.....

so that is my rant. at least you can see how strongly i feel about our beloved dolphins. i am not just trying to "piss on shula" to be a jerk. i have suffered like all of us have suffered. i just want the dolphins to do better. i want us to win a super bowl. we all hate the niners, 5-0 in super bowls, the patriots, etc. i just want us to win! and i look back and feel cheated that it couldn't have happened earlier, with marino.

(it feels to me like that could have been our best shot for a while. i mean, how much luck can one franchise have??)

p.s. anyone know what role bobby beathard played with the 70s dolphins? was he instrumental in the titles? how long did he stay with shula? because then he went on to team up with gibbs.... just wondering.

p.p.s. in case this makes it easier for anyone to read, here is the barra article as a jpg.

[img=http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/3184/rankingshula0iy.th.jpg] (http://img56.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rankingshula0iy.jpg)

We can only wonder what could have happened if Marino was paired with another HOF coach.  You mentioned Parcells and Gibbs winning with backup-type QB's,  you also forget they had a solid team (defense / running game)  to compliment the mediocrity at QB.  Which proves some of your point and some of ours,  those coaches drafted much better.  The draft is a crapshoot,  Miami drafted some high prospects (at the time),  that turned out to be busts...,  and traded for a few others that didn't pan out either.   

There's a reason why Marino owns most records,  that's all Miami could do, pass.  You're right,  I can only imagine if Miami had a stellar running game with that weapon called Marino under center.  Alas we'll never know.  And a tragic ending to the best quarterback in the history of the NFL. 

P.S.  I think I'm the only Dolphins fan that doesn't hate the 49ers.  Go figure.   ???  If the Dolphins cease to exist,  San Fran would be my next team. 

Nope,I really like the 49ers...(I only hold the superbowl against them) One of my all time favorite players was a 49er...Tom Rathman.

Deja vu!

http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php/topic,3186.15.html

To me this whole thread falls along the lines of hindsight is 20/20,like a 20 year old bitching about the Beatles,or Rolling Stones Suck...yet aren't old enough to judge/appreciate what they did. JMO..

The part about a guy jacking off in a team meeting has to be a joke.  How could someone get away with doing that, or even want to try in a room full of other football players. 

Did that really happen ?

I don't know but that's not the first time I've seen Tommy use that term.  If he goes blind we will know why  ;D

No joke.  I read about it in the book Shark Among Dolphins which was written by a former Dolphins beat writer from the Sun Sentinel and describes Jimmy Johnson's first season with the team.  Being an ex- newspaper reporter, the guy knows about reporting stuff that's true and accurate. 

You can't just say Shula "had" Marino and failed to get a running game together. Marino didn't just fall into the Dolphins' lap, Shula drafted him. So whatever blame Shula takes for the lack of running game, he has to take at least much credit for drafting Marino. You can't just take as an arbitrary starting point that he somehow magically "had" Marino but then when it came to his responsibility to get a running game and defense together, he screwed up.

My point is, Shula is responsible for the whole team, which throughout Marino's career, on average, was very good. And the team was championship-caliber in the early 70s. The only real lull in Shula's long tenure was in the late 70s. It didn't last very long.

Look, the guy averaged 10+ wins a season over a 30+ season career. That is simply astonishing, especially when you consider that many of those seasons were only 14 games long. Simply unbelievable. I think the key to his longevity, and what made him a great coach, is that he adapted his style to his players. In the early 70s, when he had a power running game, he fed Csonka over and over, and that made the team successful. In the 80s, when the Dolphins drafted Marino, Shula was flexible enough to realize that his team was now passing-oriented. He let Marino loose, and the team was successful (even though they didn't win the Super Bowl.)

Contrast this to a coach like Pat Riley. Even though Pat Riley has been amazingly successful as a coach (and is probably even better as a GM), to me he is inferior to Shula because he can only win one way. The only way Riley knows how to win in the NBA is with a team organized around a dominating center. In LA he had Jabbar, in NY he had Ewing, in Miami the first time around he had Mourning, and then he quit because Mourning got sick. When they acquired Shaq (or a year after, to keep up appearances) Riley shoved Van Gundy out the door and took over. Basically Riley only knows one style of basketball. He cannot adapt his game to the players he has. That's why he's not good as Shula, who could (as has already been noted) "take his'n and beat your'n, and then take your'n and beat his'n."

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v693/lordthundergod/scoreit.gif)

Smitty 1,  haters 0... we'll be back after these messages.

W00t W00t!!11!

i think we can all agree that marino is the greatest qb to never win the super bowl. but now, if we can't blame marino for not winning the super bowl, who can we blame...?

1. olivadotti
2. sammie smith
3. thurman thomas
4. john bosa
5. yatil green
6. other draft busts
7. bad luck/injuries
8. maybe shula the gm (but *never* shula the head coach)

okay.

Lemme add to this list

9.  Jimmy Johnson the bonehead
10.  Jimmy Johnson the asshole
11. Jimmy Johnson the egocentric maniac

C'mon....JJ came in at the end of Marino's career...way past his prime.  Shula hung around a little too long at the end, when Marino still had the goods.  ...not that it was Shula's fault either.  ....there were roughly 30 teams in the NFL...oddswise, it's only a 50/50 shot that you win the Super Bowl in a 15 year career, anyway.

JJ really pissed off a lot of people.  Let's just say what he promised and what he delivered, including bringing in Wanny, really hurt this team.  He's like the schoolyard bully who got shown up. 

Blaming JJ for what Wanny did as a head coach is assinine.  Wanny was a defensive coach...and a good one.  Our defense was built from JJ and Wanny.  After Jimmy left, anything that fell apart wasn't his doing.

Hate on JJ all you want, but letting him take the blame for Marino's lack of Super Bowls or Wanny's ineptitude as a head coach just doesn't make any sense.

shula's last great year as a coach was 1985

that year, the dolphins went 12-4
winning their last seven in a row
and winning the afc east title
that year, they beat the bears on mnf
in one of the best games ever
and made it all the way to the afc championship game

in 1985, marino was also in only his third year as a pro
and opposing teams still couldn't figure out how to stop him

unfortunately, 1985 was also the year of one of shula's worst losses
and it marked the beginning of shula's rapid decline as a coach
in 1985, in the afc championship game
shula's 2nd-seeded and heavily favored dolphins
were beaten badly to the underdog 5th-seeded patriots
the dolphins lost 31-14, at home in the orange bowl
ruining what could have been a super bowl rematch with the bears

after 1985, shula was not exactly legendary....

in his last ten years as a head coach, from 1986-1995
shula went 80-63 (not including 1993, the year marino was hurt)

this averages out to less than 9-7 per season

in his last ten years, his playoff record was 3-4
and all of his playoff victories were in the wild-card round
against secondary teams like the chiefs and chargers

in his last ten years, shula never even won a divisional playoff game
he never made it to the conference title game
never made it to another super bowl

in his last ten years
with one of the best qbs in history in his athletic prime
shula was very very mediocre

he squandered a major talent, probably the best player
the dolphins will ever have
and for this, he has to be held accountable

run_to_win, that is a wise statement you made in 2004! i am still reviewing that old thread. apologies for not seeing it before and adding to it instead of starting a new one.

OMG he has the ability to gravedig.  Security!!!  Please confine Ensign Reticent to the brig!!!