The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I find certain things amusing.  One thing that also gets a chuckle from me is when the media hops on a team's bandwagon and then goes on to explain how the moves that team has made will be the "difference maker."  This year, in baseball, that team in Toronto.

In a recent S.I. article a certain writer spoke about last year's Blue Jays pitching staff and the injuries that they fought through.  No mention of any other team, just how the Jays "kept it together" and posted a "division low 4.20 ERA dispite the injuries to Tedy Lilly and Roy Halladay."

Great!  Now please go on to explain that Toronto finished 80-82.  Great fighting.

Also please continue that thought process:  The Yankees, at one point in the season, had TWO starting pitchers that were healthy.  At one point in time they were heading into a four game set with Oakland with ONE pitcher scheduled and THREE "TBD" on the score card.  That isn't fighting through injuries?  Wang, Pavano, Wright, Mussina - all banged up.  Chacon, Lieter and Small lead that rag tag group to 95 wins. 

Not 80.  Yet...where's the credit?

Or Boston.  Last time I checked, Boston lost their closer (Foulke) in June for the season.  They didn't get Schilling back until late July and he was mostly ineffective.  They lost key bullpen members, Mantei and Embree (only to cut Embree).  At one point Boston's bullpen had 4 members of their AAA team holding down the fort.  They lost Matt Clement, 9-1 and 1.90 ERA to a line drive in the face.  Yet through those injuries Boston also posted 95 wins.

Not 80.  Yet...where's the credit?

New York dealt with injuries at CF and LF, at times having TONY WOMACK playing in the outfield.  Boston dealt with injuries at 2B and a 32 error tossing SS, along with holes at 3B.  But...Toronto was the scrappy team in '05?

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

And now Toronto has sacrified defense for a little extra pop at third base and first base, no clear cut second baseman after trading away Orlando Hudson, an aging catcher in Molina and their big fish pitching pick ups are a .500 career wins / losses guy in Burnett and a closer with 50 career saves. 

It's going to take 95 wins to win the AL East.  It's going to take 93-95 wins to win the wild card.  The following "upgrades" are supposed to lead me to believe that Toronto has gained 15 games: (?)

Troy Glaus over Corey Koskie

Lyle Overbay over Shea Hillenbran

Random scrub SS over Orlando Hudson

AJ Burnett over Ted Lilly

BJ Ryan over Bautista

Hmmmm.  Really?  I'm looking at a team that sold their souls for the long ball, and inconsistant one at that.  The Jays sacrificed batting average, OBP, defense and much more for guys that are injury and mistake prone (Overbay and Glaus), aging (Molina) and unproven (Burnett, Ryan). 

The Red Sox, meanwhile, have upgraded their entire infield defense.  Lowell is a better glove than Mueller, Loretta is a better glove than Bellhorn, Gonzo is a better glove than Renteria and JT Snow is a better glove than Millar.  Boston's power stays the same with Manny and Ortiz.  Trot Nixon returns, as does JTek.  Coco Crisp has superior defense to Johnny Damon, a slightly lower batting average (yet still over .300) and the same power numbers.  And he's getting better every year.

The Yankees are loaded for bear.  From top to bottom, you'll be hard pressed to find defensive or offensive holes.  Damon, Jeter, ARod, Sheff, Matsui...welcome to the top of the order. 

Boston and New York have made leaps and bounds improving their bullpens.  New York has brought in guys like Farnsworth and Myers, where Boston has brought in Riske and Tavares. 

When it comes to starters...somehow an injury prone Halladay is a better shot to stay healthy than Schilling or Randy Johnson?  Somehow AJ Burnett, a lifetime .500 guy is a more sure bet than Carl Pavano and Josh Beckett?  For what reasons? 

And once you get past Burnett, I'm supposed to quiver in fear at Towers and Lilly?  Really?  Because neither of those guys would make Boston or New York's ROSTER...and they are the #3 and #4 guys for Toronto. 

Boston and New York will have monster pitching rotations this year.  Wang has another year under his belt and is going to be a stud.  Papelbon is a monster in the making.  Schilling has been throwing every four days in simulated games and hitting 93 MPH, with great movement, on 8 out of 10 fastballs.  Randy Johnson has a year in NY under his belt.  Carl Pavano's shoulder has healed.  Matt Clement has spent the offseason reworking his deliver.  Foulke's knees are better than his days in Oakland and, last time I checked...New York has the best closer in the world.

But if people want to buy into the "sexy" notion that NYY and BOS will need to slug their way to wins...have at it. 

The pecking order will not change.  It'll be Boston / New York down the wire for the division with the other team battling for the wild card.  Both teams will exceed 90+ wins.  Troy Glaus, Lyle Overbay and AJ Burnett are not good enough for 15 -20 additional wins.  Facts are facts.  The Jays will start fast and by August will retake a good and familiar place for them.

Looking up.

Meanwhile there is a pesky little club in Florida that might just challenge Toronto for third place.  While no one has been watching, Tampa has grown some talent and are poised to start making noise.

Maine,

You've made a believer out of me. At first, I figured you were just a Boston homer-ite. But, with this post, I really get your point. Sorry raptors, I don't think the Jays will crack 85 wins anymore. They pulled in some big fish this year, and that is enough to sell tickets... but not enough to make it to the playoffs.

i predicted the sox would win the division .. i've seen nothing that has made me change my mind

LOL That had to be the funniest thing I have ever read in my enitre life. A little rant from a 10 year old boy trying to reassure that the Red Sox are better than third place. Take a look at magazines, show me one site, or magazine that has the Red Sox in second. Please.

Let's take a look at your infield shall we:

Gonzalez
Snow/Youkillis
Lowell
Loretta

Add the 4 player's stats from last year, and we get a solid 21 hrs, a .262 AVG, in a combined total of 1785 ab's. You get one AVERAGE player at best, out of all 4 players combined. BRAVO.

Best MLB infield in baseball?

Now let's move to the Outfield

Ramirez is a beast, no questions asked.

Crisp. Not a bad player, but he's no Damon.

Nixon. Numbers keep declining. He's nothing special. Eric Hinske of the Toronto Blue Jays put up similar numbers and he's not even a starter this season.

Catchers

Varitek-Pretty solid

DH

Ortiz-Solid for a guy that does nothing but sit on the bench and hit.

Pitching

Old Man Schilling-He could win 20 games, or just get injured.

Beckett-A guy who's MRI showed that his arm is worn out. A guy that has never won more than 9 games in a season until last season.

Old Man Wells-Doesn't even want to play with Boston. Wouldn't even make Toronto's pitching staff as a starter. 4.45 ERA? WOW

Clement-Sucked before and after he got hit in the head. Transition from the NL to AL really showed.

Wakefield-Consistent pitcher. Usually good for 5 or 6 runs a game, but consistent.

Here's something to remember also:

Last season -- before they had Glaus or Overbay or Ryan -- the Blue Jays lost 44 games by one or two runs and blew 21 saves.

Now you see how those upgrades are going to help?

Good boy.

Have fun in third place, while my Chicago White Sox win another World Series.

uh-oh....nooB talking smack to Maine about baseball....watch out....

I always thought, for the sake of credibility (or at least common decency), that you were supposed to make at least one or two constructive/informative/entertaining posts on these boards before jumping into a thread and calling one of the moderators a 10-year old boy.

...especially a White Sox fan jumping in on a Red Sox-Blue Jays topic. (wtf?)

...especially going after someone like Maine without first establishing their own credentials.


One has to wonder how long you lurked on these boards waiting to say this.

...about 88 years, maybe?  ;)

And.... how long did the Red Sox have to wait?

Not much better huh?

I'm not a Red Sox fan either... I am the proud fan of a small market team who has two WS visits, but no jewelry, in the entire glorious history of our franchise... the San Diego Padres. Win, lose...I'm a Padre 'til I die.

I do live in S FL currently though, and have enjoyed watching the Marlins win their two Series titles.

I'm still curious what would motivate someone to make those kind of comments in a first-contact capacity. Humor me, laddie...I have an interest in abnormal psychology.

Toronto had the right idea in order to challenge the Yankees and BoSox.  I just don't think they have the right combination of players.

I agree 100%.  That said, I also think the Jays could surprise me. If Halladay pitches a full season; if they get solid production from newcomers Ryan, Burnett and Glaus; if Boston and New York dip a little bit in the W/L column...the Jays could win the East.

I just don't expect it to happen.

I do expect it to be the same-old, same-old in the AL East. New York will probably win the division, based on talent. Boston will chase 'em the whole season, and be in the mix for a wild card in September. Until the "new" Jays show me something, I put them in third, nipping at Boston and potentially also in that wild card mix down the stretch.

Actually - I'm 11, get it right.  I'd say "welcome to the boards" but I'm generally not warm and fuzzy to someone that starts posting here with insults.  Grow up.


One of the many (and vast) differences between you and I is this:  I don't need to look for the stories, I write them (firstly). 

Secondly - unlike you - I can evaluate a team on my own.  I don't need "magazines or sites" to give my opinion a valid jump off point.  I could see where insecure people would need to dig through those papers and web sites to validate that the team they root for (this year, anyway) is going to be good...

I can do that on my own.  First rule in sales is "know your product."  I might (MAYBE) have a couple items of knowledge when it comes to baseball. 

Finally - this thread has zero to do with the Chicago White Sox.  Feel free to start a White Sox thread and then watch as no one posts to it.  Why?  Because much like the city of Chicago itself, no one cares about the White Sox.  I'm quite sure you didn't even know Chicago HAD two baseball teams until last season.  Oh, I know - you've been a southie your whole life, season ticket holder, thick and thin.  Right, sure.  Heard that before.  Hey...hide those Angels, Diamondback, Marlin and Yankee hats that are sitting on your shelf while you say that.  Mmmk?

In regards to discussing the '06 season with you?  Not worth my time.  After all, I have my Tonka trucks to attend to.

I can't take anyone seriously that makes the following bolded statement. 

Then again...I can't take anyone serious that openly admits to being a White Sox fan...

"Ortiz-Solid for a guy that does nothing but sit on the bench and hit."  Solid.  Right.

ChiSox fan?  You.complete.me.

Edited for the dreaded typo.

Finally - this thread has zero to do with the Chicago White Sox.  Feel free to start a White Sox thread and then watch as no one posts to it.  Why?  Because much like the city of Chicago itself, no one cares about the White Sox.  I'm quite sure you didn't even know Chicago HAD two baseball teams until last season.  Oh, I know - you've been a southie your whole life, season ticket holder, thick and thin.  Right, sure.  Heard that before.  Hey...hide those Angels, Diamondback, Marlin and Yankee hats that are sitting on your shelf while you say that.  Mmmk?

hahahahaha Maine I have to say that is funny as hell!!!  ;D

Funny you should say that.  ESPN currently has a poll on line right now.  "Which team will win the American League?"  15,500+ votes.  36% say the Yankees, 21% say the Red Sox.  Third place?  White Sox.  Weird.  That's over 3,000 people.

Listen up, the Blue Jays owned the Red Sox last season. You let in over 100 runs against us last season alone. That is freaking terrible, now your talking smack when were even better ???

Improvements:

Bengie Molina - Greg Zaun (Overbay)

Why: Molina 2 gold gloves, better offensive player. And hits in the clutch.

Lyle Overbay - Eric Hinske (Overybay)

Why: Overbay is not only a far better hitter, but a better defensive player/

Aaron Hill - Orlando Hudson  (Hudson)

Why: Hudson was my fav player and I have his jersey but everyone should know Aaron Hill is a better hitter and Aaron Hill is pretty good with the glove. He is not a srub he was one of our top prospects... Right now oDaWG but in the future Aaron Hill is the better player.

Troy Glaus - Corey Koskie (Glaus)

Why: Koskie can't stay healthy and his bat has been getting worse every year over the last few years. Koskie is pretty good on defence but at times he just looked lost. Overbay will help Glaus out with his throwing but Glaus is not that bad with the Glove he is actually really good when healthy. I also want to add that Troy Glaus was unable to work on his uperbody in the last offseason and he still hit 37. I see a big homerun year on the way.

Russ Adams - Will remain the teams SS.

Shea Hillenbrand - Will remain the teams DH.

Frank Catalnotto - Will remain the teams LF

Vernon Wells - Will remain the teams CF

Alex Rios - Will remain the teams RF

Roy Halladay would of won the CY Young award if he was not hit with a line drive. Not really his fluat... He was going to start the All-Star game.

A.J Burnett gives us a legit 2nd starter, we also lost Ted Lilly for a large portion of the season and he never got into a groove.

B.J. Ryan is a huge improvement over Miguel Batista, our other parts of our bullpen were solid last year but Miguel was terrible as the closer. We now have an All-Star closer.

Opening Day Team:

Starting Rotation:
1. Roy Halladay
2. A.J. Burnett
3. Ted Lilly
4. Gustavo Chacin
5. Josh Towers

Bullpen:
CL: B.J. Ryan
SU: Justin Spier
SU: Jason Frasor
MR: Vinnie Chulk
LS: Scott Schoeneweis
LR: Pete Walker
LR: Scott Downs

Defensive Alignment:
CA: Bengie Molina
1B: Lyle Overbay
2B: Aaron Hill
3B: Troy Glaus
SS: Russ Adams
LF: Frank Catalanotto
CF: Vernon Wells
RF: Alex Rios
DH: Shea Hillenbrand

Batting Order:
1. Russ Adams
2. Frank Catalanotto
3. Vernon Wells
4. Troy Glaus
5. Lyle Overbay
6. Shea Hillenbrand
7. Bengie Molina
8. Alex Rios
9. Aaron Hill

Bench:
Greg Zaun
Eric Hinske
John McDonald
Reed Johnson

This team will contend.

You do realize those are popularity polls, right?

You know why I came off ignorant? Because your opening post was plain out ignorant. I've been a White Sox my whole life, believe me or not. I don't care. So me being a White Sox fan limits me to just talking about the White Sox? Wow that's ignorant.


What do you think I did? I gave my OWN evaluation. I stated my own opinion about each player. What magazines or other websites does is further validates my opinion, that I'm not the only one that thinks the Red Sox are a third place team.

Really?  Funny - pointing out that the Blue Jays sacrified OBP, extra base hits and defense is "ignorant" and worthy of calling someone a 10 year old?  And talking about the Yankees makes the post a "Boston homer" post?  I suspect you scanned, not read, the post.

Your "own" evaluation...so why the mention of magazines and web sites at all?  Hmmm?  I guess that worked for your stance then, but not now?



No, not at all.  But what part of "I'm not buying what the Blue Jays are selling", an obvious post about the AL East, has ANYTHING to do with the Chicago White Sox? 

(insert crickets here).

Anything?

(more crickets)

I didn't think so.

What is ignorant and shows a lack of class is crashing into a post that has nothing to do with a specific topic and force feeding that topic on people that don't care.

You came off as ignorant simply BECAUSE.  No need to explain it, every person that read your post smelled it a mile away.

And, finally -


LOL, pathetic.  15 wins wouldn't make Toronto's roster?  Sure, Wells is MUCH worse than Towers or Lilly.  Just in case you aren't paying attention, and it would seem that you aren't, big Dave had a rough start to the year in April and May.  Granted.  June and July?  He posted a 6-1 record and a 3.42 ERA.  Boston didn't play anyone all that tough in that stretch, just the Angels, Cardinals and Yankees.  August and September?  6-2 with a 3.98 ERA. 

God you are sooooo right!  He stunk.


Really?  Hmmm.  Okay.  Clement sucked before being struck by that line drive.  Is that why he was 12-2 with an ERA of 3.42 when it happened?  That "sucks?"  Another pearl of wisdom from the all knowing White Sox man!

<<edited for the dreaded typo>>

Boston won 95 games last year, Toronto 80.  I could care less what Boston did against Toronto, if we're talking last year.  Last time I checked the season is determined by over all results.  Boston also got schooled by Tampa Bay.  And that mattered in the end...why?  Talk about how Toronto is going to rule the world in 2006 until you are blue in the face.  But if you are going to start off with "we were better than you last year"...um, not really.  95 wins versus 80.  Sorry. Scoreboard.

Had Boston won 3 additional games against Toronto and forced New York into the wild card the end result would have been the same.  Boston wasn't going to beat the Angels nor the White Sox last year.  So, in the end, the results against Toronto alone were six of one and a half a dozen to the other.

Blue Jay fans kill me.  For one - you've been MIA for decades.  Two, you jump and up and down and cry "we want respect" without being willing to (1) earn it and (2) give it.  Toronto has not broken .500 overall for a long time.  Boston hasn't won less than 90 games in a long time.  Onward.

Real fans, like Raptor, should be pissed.  He's been around in the dark days, not jumping on the bandwagon because ESPN is telling Jays "fans" that they have a shot this year.  No need to argue this fact, the Jays were one of the lowest attending MLB franchises last year.  Fact, not fiction.  All the sudden...they are back!  Gasp.

If you had bothered to read any of my other posts, rather than one, you'd see that I agree that Molina is an upgrade over Zaun.

Curious - you do know that Overbay is a career .270 hitter that averages 11 errors per year.  That's 11 errors.  Every year.  At FIRST BASE.  Maybe this is an upgrade over Hinske offensively ( he certainly has more pop), but this falls head into my "sacrifice defense for power" statement - but not by much.  Overbay had, what?  19 home runs in '05?  Hinske had 15.  Eric had 7 errors, most at 3B versus 11 last year for Overbay at 1B (an easier defensive position).  Where is the upgrade there?  Eric's OBP is also on par at .333% versus .373% for Overbay.  This is not a dramatic upgrade what so ever.

Better hitter?  Slightly.  Better defensively?  No.

Hill might turn into a decent player, but if he were better...he would have played in that spot.  Again, if you read any other posts you would see that I'm fairly high on Hill.  But, again, a prospect is a prospect for a reason.  Until he proves to be as reliable as Hudson, it's a question mark.

In regards to your farm system, I promise you this:  I know the system inside and out.  I cover their AA team.


One - you mentioned Koskie not staying healthy.  Glaus hasn't been able to stay healthy for coming up on four seasons.  Two, Glaus is a double digit error machine in the limited time he's seen the field.  This, again, dives HEAD FIRST into my statement:  sacrifice defense for power.  When you have a hitter that bats under .250, with an OBP of .280 or lower and 37 homeruns...it's occasional power at best. 

Shea Hillenbran, on the other hand, hit .291 with 18 home runs and 80+ RBI's - all while committing 6 errors versus Glaus's ****24***** errors.  Glaus had 97 RBIs to Shea's 82.  24 errors at the hot corner translates to a lot of unearned runs. 

This isn't just last year.  In case you need a Glaus education:

1999:  19 errors
2000:  33 errors
2001:  19 errors
2002:  20 errors
2003:  11 errors and only played in 87 games
2004:    2 errors and only played in 19 games all season
2005:  24 errors

Glaus will provide the occasional fireworks that will put people in the stadium.  The Jays would have been far better off going with Shea full time at third rather than giving up Hudson for the occasional pop. 

Sorry, I call 'em like I see 'em.  You don't want Shea?  I'll take him over Mike Lowell every day of the week and twice on Sundays.



Again - read some other Jays posts.  You'll see my more than favorable opinion on Wells and Frank (although aging, your best option as a lead off hitter).

Wow, I'm becoming a broken record.  Read other posts.  But, until then I'll repeat myself yet again.  There is no bigger Doc fan than me.  But the man can't stay healthy.  Last year was a fluke, but other years the injury bug has been throwing related and not a line drive off the shin.  I'm a card carrying member of the "I love Halladay" club, I think he's the best pitcher in the game.  Period.

If Burnett stays healthy, which he's not been able to do, he gives you a viable second option.  Burnett, on a stronger staff, would be a three pitcher and he's better served there.  Lilly, outside of being a Red Sox killer, is useless.  He's injury prone and a career 4.67 ERA guy with a lifetime 44-45 record.  If Toronto had to play Boston 80 times a year, he'd come in handy.  They don't, and he isn't.

I won't argue too hard that Batista was a horror show for a closer, but it was also his first year in the role.  In Batista you had a guy that could start, go long relief or close.  He's an innings eater and valuable, I'll go back to my stance that the Jays should not have given him up (along with Hudson) to obtain Glaus.  That was a mistake.  BJ Ryan's signing did not have to coincide with running Batista out of town.  He would have been a much better 4 or 5 starter than anyone else on the staff.

BY Ryan had a strong season last year.  One year.  Toronto showered this guy with more money than what's his name in New York...you know, the guy that has earned his paycheck?  I'm not saying that Ryan isn't talented, I'm not saying that he's not a flame thrower.  What I am saying is that in his first season as a closer he burned out his arm, had a couple trips to the DL, and has never pitched on a big stag in a pressure situation.  Why?  Because Balimore wasn't in any big game situations. 


Read my other posts.  Yes, they will contend.  We live in a day and age when a 60 million dollar payroll Chicago White Sox bulldozed their way to an amazing year and title.  Anything can happen.  However, until they start playing - all one can do is go by past experiences and history.  Last year the Blue Jays won 80 games, finished 2 games under .500 and 15 games out of first place.  The wild card will come down to 93-95 wins in '06.  The moves Toronto made do not equate to an additional 15 wins. 

If that is "talking smack" versus an educated opinion, sue me.

I'll do a little homework for you.  Here is a post before the Jays made the mistake of dealing away some players that they shouldn't have - and my forecast for '06.  How's this for smack talk for you?


.[/size]

<<edited for the dreaded comma splice>>

First off I’ll start with the fact that I am from Toronto but not a huge Jays fan (grew up as an Expos Fan). While I believe the Jays have improved the team this year I’m still not certain that they improved enough to make the playoffs. I also think the Jays have a small window to work with as the big contracts they gave to Burnett and Ryan are very backend loaded and when it comes time to re-signing Halladay and Wells the money may not still be there. None of this is what I wish to talk about though. I really wanted to discuss the irony of a couple of statements from this particular Red Sox fan.

1.   Defense…I’m a strong believer in good defense but lets take a look at the Red Sox Championship team, that was one of the worst defensive teams in the history of the game and they just made a joke about it. I don’t think the Jays have the kind of offense like the Sox did that year but they certainly aren’t “the Idiots” defensively either.
2.   Discussion of the Jays overpaying players…Boston had 2.5 times the Jays payroll over the past 2 years. The Canadian Dollar being stronger and a sweet deal on purchasing the stadium allowed the Jays to increase payroll. So this year the Jays set Market price rather than waiting for it. Only time will tell if it works out.
3.   Bandwagon fans – Can’t argue this one much but just wanted to point out that 12 years ago is not “decades”. 

Hey Hurl - welcome to the boards!  I won't argue the defensive issue with Boston in '04, but you have to keep in mind that they went out and obtained Cabrera and Minky and things turned very quickly.  Boston's fielding percentage in September and October was the second best in the league.  Had they not obtained Doug and Orlando, I don't think all the bloody socks in the world would have worked enough magic.

I get that Toronto needs to overspend to get FA's to come to the city (right now).  I'm not talking over all payroll (although Toronto is creeping up to 100 million) - I'm only speaking of the contract to Burnett and Ryan.  Maybe in three years Ryan's contract will be considered a heck of a deal.  For now he's making more than Mariano Rivera...and I'm not getting that.  Toronto needed to increase payroll and some contracts they picked up versus signing (Glaus and Overbay).

Decades - very true, you got me!  :)  Fine...I'll re-state.  Toronto fans have been walking around in Yankees hats for the past 12 years.