The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

What I mean by that is the fans that actually cheer for Miami to win football games, not this hipster "I hope my favorite team loses" crap


http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/dolphins/the-late-jim-mandich-will-join-the-dolphin-2001626.html?cxtype=rss_dolphins


RIP Mad Dog


Let's play inspired football this week Gentlemen!! 

Wanting Miami to lose is "hipster?".  Please explain.

An actual Fins fan that wants the fins to lose. ??? ::) ::) ::)

And you call yourself an actual fan huh ??? ??? ???


PLZ Explain  ??? ??? ::) ::) ::) ::)

I'll explain.  A couple of key losses this year could mean dozens of wins in the future.  Now, I feel that opportunity has passed.  But it was a real possibility, in my opinion.

I am a real fan, but I don't judge success on a game by game basis.  I want championships.

Agree. At this point with 3 wins and the teams ahead of us in the draft "if the season ended today", if Miami wants a franchise QB they will have to package up a future 1st round pick and probably a couple 2nd and 3rds and move up anyway. I'm fine with that. It is what it is.

Win or Lose in December....doesn't matter. Coach is still gone. Ireland is probably gone. Nothing can save Sparano and it might take a miracle to save Ireland.

Hipster as in trendy.  It's become the "trend" to want your team to lose.  And I think it's crap.  Period.  End of story. 

That's kinda the opposite of hipster.  The whole joke about the hipster movement is that they were into [insert whatever] before it became popular.  It's anti-trendy if anything.

But on to context:

Do you know how teams will take a safety on purpose sometimes, if it means the path to long-term victory is greater?  It's not that they like giving the other team points, but in the long run, it's better for the team.   Same idea, over a longer term.

It's not like me hoping for us to gt a safety makes me a bad fan.  It's just me looking at the big picture to victory.

I hear you, but it's still a trend.  It's actually the biggest contradiction ever.  But anyways, I understand both side of the story..I just can't bring myself to root against Miami..as much as they piss me off

It's funny how a certain segment of the population sees a desire for Dolphin losses as a betrayal to fandom, but has no problem whatever criticizing the team (which is no more fan-like).

You disagree?  Feel free to explain what goal you are trying to accomplish by criticizing a team that you are supposedly a fan of, and how a Dolphin fan criticizing MIA differs from a Jet fan criticizing MIA.

Totally disagree! A real fan ALWAYS wants their team to win and is dissapointed when they don't and will criticize the plays the coaches whatever.Draft picks don't always pan out in the big leagues,I have seen tons of great college can't miss prospects that only had mediocre NFL careers.So,IMO wanting your team to lose just so you can get the number one guy is ridiculous.
Criticizing one's own team is part of being a fan......
It's like I can talk bad about a member of my family when they screw up-but YOU had better not!

this

You are delusional if you are implying that a football team with 53 total strangers on it is a member of your family.

Other than that, you're good.

They'll never understand a simple point like that for some reason. No sense in trying to do it again when we've beaten this dead horse.

But do you also realize how rare it is for a team to take a safety on purpose?

Also, the comparison is terrible if, as Spider claims, you don't want Miami throwing games on purpose. In your example the team effectively gives up points on purpose. The claim from Spider all along is the "Suck for Luck" movement has had nothing to do with throwing games.

Oh superior being, I'm afraid we do understand. You are the one missing the point. The lose now to win then is pure conjecture. Your plan could just as easily equate to lose now and continue losing. There is no guarantee in your theory, so I want wins as they can actually come.

actual fans

Is that anything like Ndamakong Suh's true fans? LOL

This BS is hilarious. I've been a fan of this team my entire f'ing life. Sat down to watch the Turkey game (I live in OK so I only get to see a few games a year) and it was impossible for me not to root for them. Got totally sucked in to thinking they were gonna pull out the win LOL.

This year I haven't been rooting against them (not that it matters at all) but I'm happy when they lose. Unfortunately they cranked out a few meaningless wins which will make getting better more difficult. I hate the position that this inept, crappy, half-assed  franchise has put me in  >:D and look forward to the day I can cheer on a competent Dolphins team that doesn't look like it makes decisions by having a room full of monkeys throw darts at the wall.

It's a difference of opinion about what would be the best route to excellence. Get over it. If Suck for Luck is old, annoying and obnoxious then I'd say Meaningless Wins for the True Phins is right there with it in everything but the length of time it has existed.

So are you saying that criticizing the team always works out?  That complaining about the need to go from a player-friendly coach (e.g. Wanny) to a disciplinarian (e.g. Saban) is guaranteed to work?  How about insisting that the ownership needs to bring in someone with a proven record (like Parcells), or conversely bemoaning the fact that the team won't take a chance on new and upcoming coaching talent (like Cameron)?  Or maybe you're saying that declaring the team's need to bring in a top-tier WR (e.g. Marshall) or a big-name free agent defender (e.g. Porter, Dansby) cannot fail?

Nothing is guaranteed.  Everything is conjecture.

So then, it would seem that people are capable of recognizing that it's possible to say something which appears to be against the team, but really has the team's best long-term interests at heart.  Funny, that.

It's pretty simple:  if one is going to insist that rooting for the Dolphins to lose at any point, ever is antithetical to the purpose of being a fan, that same person had better not be criticizing the team.  If you want to pretend that there's no difference between a Dolphin fan wanting a MIA loss and a Jet fan wanting a MIA loss, then how can you pretend that there's a difference between a Dolphin fan criticizing MIA and a Jet fan criticizing MIA?

True, it is all conjecture, as that seems to be the word people like using recently. It's really simple. Losing now makes more sense than eeking out 4 or 5 wins in a meaningless season. How is that not so easily seen?

Yeah, whoever we end up drafting could be a bust and we suck for another decade. But, I hold more hope in this team getting better by losing now than winning 5 games now.

My problem is like suck for luck's problem. I've been a fan for a while (not as long as a lot of you though) and I'm tired of them just being mediocre. I see it as the QB is the biggest position that needs filling and, unless you get lucky, you need to be picking QB's up early. I think if we had a great QB then this team would easily be competing for the AFC East title every year. That's why I want the team to get a high pick, but every week, when they play, I always end up rooting for them to win but I'm happy when they lose too.

And you still need to be lucky then

Damn,dude it's just football......get out a little more. ::)

Also true.  :D Is that the only part you disagree with or is my entire view something you disagree with?

The only thing I disagree with is wishing to watch losses during Dolphin games. I hope we can find a long term QB solution (I hate the term franchise QB), I hope we can win a Super Bowl (or multiple), I hope for a decade of success. I just don't agree that wishing for a losses is a way to go about it. I want to see my team win games

Yes, and do you realize how rare it is for a fanbase to hope its team loses games?  I've been a fan on the Dolphins for 25 years and I've never done it, except for about a 3 game stretch.


I think there is a difference between throwing games (which hurts the integrity of the league) and HOPING for a loss.  While not exactly the same concept, I agree, taking a safety and losing a meaningless game when you're halfway through the season and 3+ games out of 3rd place in your division are comparable in that they are short term negatives which (assumingly) lead to longer-term positives.

your use of the word "assumingly," albeit in parenthesis, is the first breath of reason I've heard from anyone with that mentality.

The lack of any guarantee is the sticking point for me.

If you told me "if you go 0-16 this year, you will be guaranteed 12 years of sustained success and become a league powerhouse and win multiple championships," I'd be on board. 

However, short of that, nothing is guaranteed, and everything is a crap shoot, regardless of Mel Kiper's draft board.  Thus, see AZ's quote below...

Brian, you (and others) seem to harp upon the lack of a guarantee, as if there is some sort of alternative option that does produce a guaranteed result.

When you criticize the ineptitude of Sparano and lobby for him to be fired, is there a guarantee that the team will be better off after firing him?
No?
Then why complain at all?

Spider, the problem with that position is that the suck for luck crowd is also the same group harping on Sparano (if my memory serves correctly). I don't want to speak for Brian, but I can't recall him being on the fire Sparano lead. I know I haven't been. Now maybe we both agree on the topic or maybe we don't but neither of us are leading that charge so the question really doesn't have a point.

We both disagree with suck for luck. Neither of us have been voicing the fire Sparano position regardless of which side we are on.

You're missing the bigger point.

Have you ever asked for any Dolphin player or coach to be replaced?
Would the replacement of said person have guaranteed an improvement?
If not, then your continued insistence that Suck For Luck guarantees nothing is not particularly relevant.  Nothing is guaranteed.

Yeah, I don't understand the idea of a guarantee.  There are no guarantees at all in sports.  As previously stated, you're either analyzing things that already happened or making predictions of what is to come.  You have to make decisions that you think have the best probability of success.  Luck may be a total failure.  But if scouts are correct, he gives you the best probability of a QB coming out of college in a decade.  Because I trust those prognosticators, I felt that losing (what I consider to be) meaningless games in an already lost season were beneficial to our best CHANCE at long-term viability as a franchise.

Now, I can't speak for other "Suck for Luck"ers, but I no longer am hoping for the team to lose games.  I feel that our chance of getting Luck has passed (the chance of Indy pouring on 4 wins seems nil), and I'm not as high on these other QBs enough to give up the pleasure of watching (meaningless) Dolphin wins.  However, I do understand that sentiment if other fans think that continued losses will lead to a superstar QB (Griffin III or whoever else) and I certainly don't disparage their fandom for it.

I am not saying that anyone else SHOULD hope for losses.  I get the idea of being proud of wins, regardless.  I just don't subscribe to that.  What I resent is having my fandom of 25 years questioned because of my feelings towards how to best improve the team.

My worry about eking out another game or two is that it can give the false sense that things are not as bad as they once seemed, and we will not make the needed changes to reach the highest levels again.

^ I certainly get that, but I think that time has passed.  I would be flabberghasted if we don't completely clean house, regardless of how much "eeking" we do down the stretch.

Suck for Luck does indeed guarantee something, current losses. Displeasure in a coach (and there was only one head coach I wanted gone and voiced it about) does not guarantee losses. It is apples and oranges.

Also, let's not focus on the word guarantee. It is not the crux of my argument (nor anyone I think). It is just a response to the position of, if we lose now we have a better chance of winning then. The crux of the argument is that you should not ever want to see your team lose.

It only guarantees it if the team throws the games, which I'm pretty sure everyone can agree they are not doing. So, it's just a hope that they keep losing or a "meh" if they do lose.

Look, I apologize to you, or anyone else that I might have offended by using the terms "actual fans" and so on.  However you (generally speaking) choose to root for the Dolphins is fine.  You're still rooting for the Dolphins.  Kind of like the argument of Reading books, or e-reading, who cares? You're still reading.  Anyways,  one disclaimer I'm providing about myself is that I tend to be a very blunt and passionate person.  I speak (or type) and ask questions later.  So again, I might have been a little harsh and I apologize.  We all have the same frustrations with this team.  I've been a fan since I knew what a football was (I'm 25 now, so I think it's safe to say I've been a fan for 2 decades).  I've seen good times, and I've seen horrible time just like the rest of you.  Yet every Sunday I'm "suited up" in a Dolphins jersey, my "J-E-T-S SUCK! SUCK! SUCK!" shirt underneath said jersey, and a beer in hand.  Every game I'm yelling at the t.v. thinking they can hear me and chain smoking when it's a close game.  After a loss, don't talk to me until tomorrow.  If you do, I'll play the role of Ozzy, you'll play the role of the bat. 

I understand the concept of a high draft pick, especially in this years draft.  I'm not denying that it would help Miami out a tremendous amount.  Again, cheer for Miami however you want, I'm officially retiring the argument.  I just can't find it in myself to hope for/want a loss.  To quote AZ from earlier this month: "I root for a victory every week, every game, every year no matter what!!!!!"

Cheers to that notion my friends. 

It is the crux of Brian's argument.

While I appreciate that, it really isn't necessary.  We're all just sharing our opinions, no offense taken.  I think you touch on a good point when you say that we're all rooting for the Dolphins...just in differerent ways.  In essense, we all want what we think is best for the team.  ...there's just a disagreement about what that entails.

This pretty much describes my Sundays to a fine point. I am glad I am not the only delusional person after a Dolphins loss.....you should see some of my Facebook posts.....you would think the world was going to end when Miami loses lol!!!!! My wife cheers for the Dolphins just so she doesn't have to have "Grumpy Hubby" for the remainder of her Sunday!!!!!! It was not a good first 7 weeks of Sundays for her and my whole family had to listen to my incoherent ramblings before Thanksgiving dinner this past week!!!!!  ;D

No, its not.  Its just the main problem I have with YOUR argument.

My argument is exactly as Phish is stating.  I don't want my team to lose, regardless of the purpose.

My problem is sucking now doesn't lead to winning later.  That's just it.  You can't say that with certainty.  Its just not true.

And, to Spider's accusation, I never once asked for Sparano to be fired.  Sucking now leads to other things like people getting fired/cut who should be retained and the perception of a team in shambles which precludes said team from signing further free agents.

You're just not seeing the big picture.  One player does not make a team.  As Dolphins fans, I'd think that 19 years of Dan Marino would make you more intimate with that fact than anyone else.

I'd rather get a few wins, make some progress, show improvement, and have a good foundation going into next year.  Get stronger, get MANY improvements at several positions, rather than just one.

Ugh...

YOU CAN'T SAY ANYTHING WITH CERTAINTY!

Sucking now (when a season is clearly lost) could mean getting the best PROSPECT at QB, ever.  Since our QB has been severely lacking for the last decade, that seems like a direction that would be good for us.  ...I know it's not guaranteed.  Some walk-on may be better than Andrew Luck.  But it's not likely.  Having to make good decisions on the non-definitive future means you take the best chance.  By all accounts, Luck is the best chance.  ...not Matt Moore slowly improving towards next year.

I can't tell if you really don't get this or you're just being obtuse.

You don't have to agree with the strategy, but at least recognize it.

This is the dumbest debate ever.

1) ANYONE who spends as much time on this board as we all do is an "actual fan." I mean seriously why would a non-Dolphins fan spend 365 days a year on this board. I mean in May and June when nothing is happening we are here talking Fins football. Everyone is a Dolphins fan. (not counting Hoodie who is the exception).

2) Dolphins Fans right now that root for the Fins to win every week, good bless ya. Nothing wrong with that, but you can't look down on fans who are also not heart broken to see them to lose when the season is clearly over and lost. Newsflash: Miami isn't going to the playoffs. So, what is there to look forward to. ANSWER: The NFL DRAFT! What is the best way to do best in the draft, have the highest pick possible in every round. How do you do that...you lose! If the season is over and you know your coaching staff and GM are going to be fired, why wouldn't you want a high draft pick? That doesn't mean you have to dawn a Sanchez jersey or a Brady jersey and openly cheer for the opponent each week. But for christ sakes going on a message board  (which by the way has no impact on anything let alone the outcome of the actual games)and saying, I wouldn't be heart broken if we lose out, hell I kinda hope it happens. So' F'n What! Who cares!

3) In closing, if you think winning games this final month is building towards the future. HOW? You don't even know who the  head coach will be next year and odds are the new head coach is cleaning house on some level. And lots of guys on a 3, 4, 5, win team won't be back. When you only win a handful of games, you suck. Hence, lots of people go. What are you building on or towards? There is no foundation and we ain't building one with anyone in this group.

BULL! One player is a team. What is Indy without Manning? I know with him they win the damn division every year. Take Rodgers off the Packers and they are an ordinary team. How is Houston going to finish without Schaub? Answer, not very good! When Brady went down that one year did NE make the playoffs? Sure, they won 11 games but did they make the playoffs...NO! Figure if he plays they win more 11 and are in. Denver before and after Tebow...nuff said! One player IS the team. The NFL has changed!

The ONLY position that matters is QB. The Dan Marino days of the NFL of the 1980's and 1990's is dead and buried. THOSE DAYS one player wasn't a team. You needed a total and complete team. The game has changed in every way possible.  Every rule is now tilted towards the offense and specifically the quarterback. One player IS the team. It's the QB!

You can't say anything about the future results of any change with certainty.

Brian, in the first year of this site alone, you asked for the following Dolphins employees to be fired:

Ray Lucas (http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php/topic,12.msg162/topicseen.html#msg162)
Brian Griese (http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php/topic,16.msg164/topicseen.html#msg164)
Mark Royals (http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php/topic,58.msg618/topicseen.html#msg618)
Jay Fiedler (and Brian Griese) (http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php/topic,666.msg5204/topicseen.html#msg5204)
Kendall Newson (http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php/topic,914.msg6908/topicseen.html#msg6908)
Dave Wannstedt and the entire coaching staff (http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php/topic,1073.msg8460/topicseen.html#msg8460)

Now, did any of those changes guarantee an improvement?  Of course not.  So, by your logic, why be a negative fan and ask for current Dolphins to be fired?

The point is not specifically Sparano, or even Andrew Luck.  The point is that you seem to be saying, "If it's not certain to produce positive results, don't do it."  Under that logic, anything is futile.

Such a position is no more convincing than, "You should not ever speak ill of your team."

All of you have no qualms whatsoever speaking ill of the Dolphins under the auspices of "constructive criticism."  Why is wishing for losses any different?

I think that we would all agree to root for or bitch about your favorite team shows PASSION.......which is the heart of being a fan at any level.

Maybe you should ask Hoodie or jtex since neither is a Dolphins fan and is here daily.

Worst example ever. Do you really think the Broncos are winning because of Tebow?

I can't believe you would ever think they are even closely related. Not being satisfied with the way a team is built, performs, etc. is worlds apart from wishing for them to lose. I may not think the roster is the best in the world, but I would still like to see them win games. The two aren't even close.

Were they before he became the starter? I'm not going to say he is the sole reason, but, I don't think they changed personnel anywhere else other than QB.

Uh, I pointed that out in my post!  ::)


READ!

He is a part of it YES!

And winning now doesn't lead to anything good either. Nothing good comes from it at least not right now. Not really. Maybe you feel better about them winning then you do if they lose, but it doesn't change the fact that Miami isn't going to the playoffs this year which is the prime directive in any year. That's where the difference between you and I lies.

So Von Miller being dominant and Elvis getting back into form had nothing to do with it? Coach Fox switching the defense back to a 4-3? Veteran leadership on defense( which Tebow himself has even praised)? MaGahee running his ass off?
But you are right, the single reason for the current hot streak the Broncos are on is only because of a crappy QB who can run well.

^^ he did say part of

Those other guys are part of it too, correct. QUESTION, Those you mention were also playing when Orton was the QB....correct. So what is the variable that changed, oh that's right. TEBOW in, Orton Out! To give Tebow NO credit, silly. Not even worth having a debate about. I'm no huge Tebow guy, but to give him no credit is foolish and laughable. Tebow gave the team a shot in the arm. That counts for something.

When he started playing the team started winning. If you can't admit that, then I don't know what to tell ya.

Why let facts get in the way of a silly rant

Von Miller is a rookie and is getting into his groove, same with Elvis after coming off an injury filled season and then a lockout. The defense is on an incredible tear the last few games( wow the ones they won). Lets not forget they got a new coach who switched them from a 3-4 to a 4-3 defense, so they had to learn a new scheme. So lets see, the defense got going after 4-5 weeks. Yeah that seems about right after coming out of a lock out.
What exactly has Tebow given them besides another run option?
When this team starts beating really good teams, I might consider my opinion of Tebow's future as an NFL starting QB, until then I see a guy running a one dimensional offense who relies on his defense to keep games close enough to win in the 4th or OT and getting all the credit for the whole turn around.
If you cannot admit there is more than Tebow to this current streak, I do not know what to tell you.

What part of me saying....."HE IS A PART OF IT".....did you not understand? Where did I not give anyone else credit.

You have yourself worked up over nothing because I clearly stated Tebow is a part of the reason for the turnaround and not the whole reason. He is a BIGGER part of it, but not the only reason.  Maybe read my posts before you respond and go off on a tirade.

Now you're arguing just to argue. He said he was part of the reason why. You do understand part is not 100%, right?

They have beaten two good teams during this incredible run.  The Jets and the Raiders are both playoff contenders.  I also have to throw San Diego in there because, while they're record is worse than usual, they have an incredibly talented team.  They just have a bad coach.

I did read it fully after I posted but you had not mentioned jtex so I left it alone

The coolest thing about Tebow is he keeps moving the curve. People have not changed their opinion of him but they keep changing the bar they have set.

1) He'll never get drafted as a QB.
2) He'll never start in the NFL as a QB
3) He will never win games in the NFL
4) He will never be a pro bowl QB
5) He will never win a Super Bowl

He is just TROLLING looking to pick an internet message board fight.

ha, I like that!

The outcome of the Raiders game yesterday was the original point of my post.


Great win..RIP Mad Dog

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Mike is completely right. Please don't give me the "McGahee is running his ass off" stuff, because he had back to back games with under 20 yards, and they won both of them. Noteworthy, too, is that the defense that has been "carrying" Tebow gave up 32 points yesterday, and somehow they won. The only part of the equation that has changed, as Mike pointed out, is Tebow in, Orton out. -EK

didn't that defense get a late turnover yesterday ???

Disagree.  That defense gave up 15, 45, 24, 10, 13, 13, and 32 points in the games Tebow has played, starting with the Miami game.  In 4 of those 6 games, Tebow had a chance because and only because that defense was playing out of its mind.  Only in this last game did the offense really play well for an entire half.

Tebow should be given credit for taking advantage of a situation his defense presented with him, but he's not "the only reason".  I admire his results, his passion, dedication and his ability to get it done somehow.  I also think the Ravens, Steelers, Patriots, and Packers (to name a few) would break him over their knees, which is to say it won't hold up against elite teams.

How did a thread get so derailed? This isn't a Dolphin discussion at all.

Right?

WHTF ??? ??? ??? ???  Since when this became a TEBOW topic......................


Exit Stage Left

Missed this in the Tebow squabble:

Funny, because the reason I wanted to see the team lose is specifically because I was not satisfied with the way they were built and performing.

Your argument is that it is fundamentally unbecoming of a fan to wish for losses.  I say that using that logic, it is also fundamentally unbecoming for a fan to criticize the team.  If you believe that supporting the team as a fan extends to "constructive criticism," why doesn't it extend to hoping for "constructive losses"?

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario so as not to confuse you with the performance of draftees:  suppose MIA has traded Cameron Wake to OAK for a 2nd and a conditional 3rd; the condition of the 3rd is that OAK wins at least 10 games.  It's week 17, and MIA has secured the #3 seed with a 11-4 record, while OAK has clinched their division at 9-6.  MIA cannot improve their station with a win, but will gain an additional 3rd round pick with a loss.  Are you a "bad fan" if you root for MIA to lose?

Let it die. Any hypothetical you state is not a reflection of what the situation was. I've stated my position. You've stated yours. We are miles away from Suck for Luck at this point. Let it die, please let it die.

 ;D ;D agreed we should be on the

PLAY LIKE A TURD FOR ~ ROBERT GRIFFIN III  "Da Third"

So then, your problem is not with "wishing for losses" in general, but specifically and solely with Suck For Luck?

Way to let it die there Spider.

Unless someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to hit Reply, maybe you should lead by example.

Seems to me that you are perfectly fine with the "constructive" anti-team activity that you do (criticizing team employees), but conveniently find the anti-team activity that others do (rooting for losses for better draft position) to be over the line.  If you think rooting for losses is unacceptable, why'd you sidestep the question about a meaningless loss giving Miami another draft pick?

 You are like a kid asking why a million times. Your hypotheticals are endless. We had a situation I have commented on consistently and finally. I do not root for the Miami Dolphins to lose games.