The Dolphins Make Me Cry.com - Forums

I'm cautiously optimistic.  What about y'all?

I'm very optimisitc...that there will be a training camp.  >:D

No Tannehill. It was already a long-shot that he'd be a starter any time soon, and holding out through training camp isn't going to help that. -EK

I don't get why he is holding out.  With the rookie wage scale in place, its not like he has much leverage in negotiations. 

Good to see you back.  Where ya been?

The issue for the holdup is language in the contract. Other NFL teams have been letting up on some language that the Dolphins are holding onto.

Armando posted about this very thing yesterday ...


Kalil signing today may impact Tannehill talks

Minnesota Vikings first-round pick Matt Kalil signed today.

The deal had no offset language, according to various reports.

That's good news for Ryan Tannehill as his representative continues to talk to the Dolphins about signing their deal without offset language. Offset language allows a team to recoup some of the guaranteed money it pays a particular player in the event that player becomes a bust and is cut before his contract of four or five years (depending on a club option) expires.

The negotiations between the Vikings and Kalil was reportedly being held up by those teams insisting on offset language. The Vikings caved on the issue.

The Dolphins negotiations with Tannehill have included a team desire to include offset language in the deal. According to profootballtalk.com, the offset language issue is what is holding up Tannehill from agreeing with Miami. I have confirmed that is correct.

Obviously if other teams are backing off the demand for the language, the agent for Tannehill can also make the case his client shouldn't have the language in his deal.

So we'll see where this goes as the Dolphins are trying to get Tannehill signed in time for tomorrow's first practice. (Players already reported to camp today.)

With that said, consider this: It is absolutely wise for the Dolphins to try to protect themselves from the possibility that Tannehill might become a bust. But pushing the issue to the extreme that he misses significant training camp time starts things off on bad footing, thus increasing the possibility that Tannehill would be a bust.

It's a catch 22.

The Dolphins nonetheless remain optimistic a deal can be reached by the end of the weekend.

Posted by Armando Salguero at 03:47 PM | Permalink

Read more here: http://miamiherald.typepad.com/dolphins_in_depth/2012/07/minnesota-vikings-first-round-pick-matt-kalil-signed-today-kansas-city-chiefs-first-round-pick-dontari-poe-signed-today-ne.html#storylink=cpy

[slightderail]

Why does everything Armando Salguero writes sound like a forum post?  He's the worst journalist on the planet.

[/slightderail]

Way to go Vikes.... dumbasses.

As far as optimism.... there's just virtually nothing left in the tank at this point. Hope & change doesn't get you very far does it?

Show me something.

Actually it is less of a catch-22 for the Dolphins than for Tannehill.  A team's instance that the clause remain makes sense.  The agent wanting the modification makes sense.  The player  (himself, not the agent) wanting the modification is a sign of lack of confidence and/or the player listening to the agent instead of his heart.

I bet most players' (including Tannehill and Kalil) attitude is "fuck that, I don't need that, I not going to be bust, how about you get the team to include a clause that says I get an extra million bucks when I make the pro-bowl my rookie year."       

Tannehill is sitting for a while anyway.  Couldn't care less.

I am mostly optomistic about this season and my only hope is that we don't have any key injuries in camp.  We have several positions with good depth but we also have several positions where the next guy up won't be good enough (this year).

I love the reports of the fast paced practices, but I could see that translating into injuries if not monitored closely.

Hey thanks. Didn't think anyone even noticed. My summer microbiology class is brutal. Between that, work, and training, I've been scarce. -EK

Unless a player has had some issues, either injury related or off field problems, I'd agree with the player in NOT having the clauses.  The bonus money is the only guaranteed money, they deserve that much, especially with the rookie wage scale in place.

So how bout we take out the offset language but reduce the guaranteed money.  Will he sign then?

My guess is "no"

I have to agree with the latter part of this post.  If you want to dock his pay if he underperforms, you gotta increase his bonus if he overperforms.

Because it's a blog and not an actual column.  All of the Many writers write using conversational tone in their blogs.

Sometimes it's just random comments about his thoughts or things he observed at practice.

I know I'm late to this party, so here we go. Optimistic? No. Excited? Definitely. Besides, what doesn't go right in real life, Madden is there to alleviate it. Go Phins!!!!

Tannehill needs to get his ass in camp....whether he starts or gets playing time soon or not.....get in camp you bum!!!!!!

Missing 1 day of practice is no big deal for Tannehill.  Hell the GM himself and the coach have all but said he won't start Week 1. If this goes 2 or 3 days or longer.... it's "ANOTHER" black eye for Ireland and the organization though.

They are trying to put stuff in his deal no other guy drafted in front or right behind him has, and it makes zero sense. It won't work and Ireland and the front office are putting off the inevitable.

Why should he? Nobody else drafted before or after him has that in their contract. He just wants what everyone drafted in his "range" got. He isn't asking for anything out of the ordinary. This is another Jeff Ireland special! I don't rip on Jeff as much as others do, but man he makes it tough to keep defending him with nonsense like this.

Even more so a reason for Tannehill to be at practice.  Is he more concerned with how much money he will make if he is a bust or is he more concerned with NOT being a bust? 

This isn't on Tannehill. Ireland and front office are playing games. No agent worth anything and the NFLPA won't let the Fins do what they are trying to do with his deal.

MikeO is right on this one guys. It's dumb for Ireland to be stuck on something that every other team has already gotten past.  Tannehill isn't asking for anything special, he's just asking what every other signed draftee has already gotten. Give it to him already and be done with it. Delaying for this is stating that you have no confidence in your own draft choices! Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Day 1 of training camp, and I'm already agreeing with Mike. Leave it to the Dolphins front office to make a foolish stand. You draft a guy to play QB at 8. You intend for him to start eventually. Now you expect the player to offer you an out.  I wouldn't sign with offset language either. It just means that when you so sign, you better do everything in your power to make it worth it.

Yep. Not when guys drafted AFTER him don't even have this language in their contract. That's why no agent worth anything and the NFLPA won't ever allow this to happen. And why Ireland is wasting his friggin time fighting this.

It's downright foolish by Ireland and the organization.

Is Ireland confident about is drafting, or concerned he drafted another bust?

Or is he friggin clueless. I go with friggin clueless! lol

If he drafted a player that cares more about money than being a successful football player, then Ireland did draft a bust. 

If I didn't know better I'd say the Dolphins were keeping Tannehill out of practice on purpose. They know there is absolutely no way that Tannehill's agent can agree to this. It would be career suicide for him.

So here's a theory. They already know that Tannehill is NOT going to be the opening day starter, but they don't want the fans pressuring them into making him the opening day starter. So do something that keeps him out of training camp long enough that you can point to and say well he's not ready because he wasn't there for all of training camp. I know crazy right? That's still the best explanation I can come up with. Remember that Tannehill already knows the offense, so being a couple days late to camp really isn't going to change much. Everyone can tote the company line and all that missing a couple days of camp will set you back and all and that might be true if it were somebody who didn't already know the offense, but Tannehill does. This isn't going to prevent him from knowing the playbook, all it's going to do is prevent him from getting reps with the receivers and prevent him from looking good in practice for all the fans to see. Maybe that's what they are afraid of.

^^^ Pappy that is a bit nuts.  The reason why is not expected to be the day one starter is he needs more than a full training camp of coaching to be ready to be an NFL QB.  Cutting his training camp short doesn't improve him as a QB.

Last year, TWO players negotiated to have the offset language removed from their contract.  Only TWO. 

This year all of them want it.

The owners negotiated for it when working out the CBA for a reason.  To avoid spending megabuck on the Ryan Leaf, Jamarus Russel, Vern Golstein, and Ted Ginns of the NFL. 

Caving in makes no sense for the owners. 

But they all have caved pretty much....except for Ross. All of the guys picked AHEAD of Tannehill don't have it in their deals. A few guys picked right after Tannehill don't have offeset language in their contract. You can't expect Tannehill to just accept it. That makes zero sense!

Putting too much thought into it Pappy. Ireland/Ross are just flat out stupid.  They just are screwing this up. If Tannehill isn't signed by Monday this is a disaster and a total debacle of the highest level. And of course it will be played out in front of the nation on HBO. Instead of putting your best foot forward to try and change the image of the team into a more positive light on Hard Knocks. Use it in a positive way! They do the opposite and will come off looking like total jackasses and just re-enforce the image they already have. Of being total idiots who have no clue how to run a team.

If this ends today or tomorrow, whatever. Only a couple days in, no big deal really. He didn't miss much!  If this goes into Monday and next week... that is laughing stock of the league material right there. That even with a "rookie wage scale"  who is it  that can't sign their 1st round pick ...the Dolphins!

Corrected for you.  Dolphins aren't the only team that hasn't caved. 

Plus I wouldn't use teams that habitually have top 10 draft picks as my model for smart ownership. 

The salary cap not draft picks are what limit the building of the team.  Look at it this way if the magic gene was to offer the Dolphins one of two wishes which would be better:

A) An extra $15 million dollars in cap space.

B) An extra first round draft pick but no extra cap space.

A is clearly better.  That means you can dump a scrub (or two) and replace him with a top notch vet FA (or two).

With B you get an extra rookie, but you need to cut a top notch vet to make room for him.
 

The ONLY guy picked ahead of Tannehill that hasn't signed is Blackmon and that is because he has been tied up with his legal issues.

You are making a paper thin argument. Tannehill is asking for what everyone else got. He just wants a regular deal like everyone else.

I agree it is. You know what ELSE is NUTS? To have your 1st round pick out of camp because you are holding out for something that his agent CANNOT give you. His hands are completely tied. So either the Dolphins are even more stupid than everyone thinks they are OR they don't want Tannehill in camp. There's no other way to explain it.

But no one has gotten it. Not one. No one. Zero. Zilch. Nada. And they want Tannehill to give in? That does not compute.

Nice try on filling JTEX's shoes.

Armando Salguero actually made sense for once..

It’s a bad start for the Dolphins because they’re being fiscally wise but pragmatically unreasonable. You see, the reason the sides were not agreed Friday even as practically every other NFL first-round pick had already signed is that Miami wants to include offset language in Tannehill’s contract.

Offset language allows a team to recoup some of the guaranteed money it pays a particular player in the event that player becomes a bust and is cut before his contract expires.

The Dolphins are trying to add safeguard language to the deal in case they royally blew this pick. That’s smart. Other NFL teams have tried the same approach.

The problem is every team that tried the approach so early in the round has eventually dropped the cause. More importantly, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers abandoned their reach for offset language in Mark Barron’s contract and the Carolina Panthers similarly yielded on the issue with first-round pick Luke Kuechly.

Barron was drafted seventh and Kuechly went ninth. That means there is virtually no way the agent representing the eighth overall pick can agree to offset language without risking it being used against him by other agents when he’s trying to recruit clients next year.

And Tannehill is that eighth overall pick.

Tannehill, it’s fair to say, is painted into a corner and if his representative caves rival agents will say he committed a form of malpractice.

 http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/28/2916897/unsigned-ryan-tannehill-miami.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

For anyone online right now nfl network is getting ready to show some fin action from Davie.

Edit, well that was only about 5 minutes. More at 7 eastern, hopefully not the same thing.

I'm really liking what I'm reading about training camp so far. The offense does not seem to be overmatched against the defense as they usually seem to be. Defense is still holding their own, but offense is making them work hard for it. I'm not as worried about our WR's as many of you seem to be. I think you'll see a lot more passes going to TE's and RB's this year than in previous years and passes to WR's will be shorter with the emphasis on WR's getting yards after catch on their own. Certainly they'll have to hit some down field passes as well, but the bread and butter of the west coast offense is keeping the chains moving with an up tempo offense and keep the opposing teams D on the field and yours on the sidelines. Conditioning will be HUGE. I think you'll see a better conditioned team on both sides of the ball this year. Smaller, faster, quicker guys as opposed to the lumbering giants that Parcells and Sparano favored. I think that works into Miami's favor more in September. Remember last year's opening game when NE ran rings around Miami's D and players were sucking wind in the 3rd quarter? That shouldn't happen this year. Now that may not translate quite as well when you get into December and have to travel to cold weather sites, but it should work better at home and Miami sure could use a boost at home. I'll take looking good at home over looking good on the road any day.

I'm trying really hard to be optimistic for this year.  The best I have come up with so far is that although their schedule doesn't look particularly easy, it doesn't look like a total killer either. 

IMO, 8-8 is reasonable. I don't see enough improvement in the secondary or at QB to expect more, even with a softer schedule than last year. I feel like NYJ and Buffalo both improved more than Miami did. The following year, depending on Tannehill's development could be a 10 win season, but I don't belive next year will be. Before I get flamed for any of the above, Vegas's odds for Miami wins is 7.5, with the Jets at 8.5 and the Bills at 7... so I don't think my assessment is particularly unreasonable. -EK

I'm not looking for improvement in the win-loss column, I'm looking for improvement in the execution on the field. Better +/- turnover margin. Better TD production, fewer FG's from the offense. Fewer long passes given up by the D. Able to close out games by making a stop on D. Offense is able to come from behind on a team (even if they end up losing the game). Fewer big plays given up by the special teams and more created. ETC.

If some of those things start to happen the wins will come evenutally.

The AFC East after NE isn't that tough. The Jets aren't any good, I'm sorry. Their QB is nothing special and they are now a "ground and pound" team with NO RB worth anything on their roster. The Jets went to 2 AFC Championship games and keep regressing year after year. After Holmes their WR corp sucks as bad as Miami's! And Holmes can't be trusted one bit! The Bills front 7 on defense is nasty, after that they aren't anything to write home about. Their QB play is mediocre at best. I'm not a huge Stevie Johnson fan, he's alright. They are on par with Miami.

If Miami's offense does anything this year at all, this team could win 8 or 9 games with our schedule.  I mean Jax, Indy, Seattle, Arizona, Oakland, St.Louis, Bills/Jets TWICE....this schedule can't be any easier. If Miami can score any points at all they will be at or above .500 easy.

It's all about the QB play and RED ZONE offense. The 2 things that killed Miami last year. Miami would have won 8 or 9 games last year if the RED ZONE Offense (TD over FG) and QB play was better (Cleveland, Denver, Dallas are 3 wins right there off the top of my head that were lost by Red Zone offense and QB play.)

"Front 7" is not exactly a small part of your D.  And I would also say that BUF is clearly better than MIA at safety (both), and probably better at 2nd CB, which doesn't leave a whole lot.

Offensively, they are clearly better at RB, better (to a lesser degree, but still superior) at WR, and roughly equal at QB.  BUF is in a MUCH better position than MIA right now.

While their Front 7 is very good (aka "nasty" as I said) I dont think its head and shoulders better than Miami's. If anything its slightly better.  The secondary I give the edge to Buffalo. We just disagree on the offense. Fitzpatrick was awful the second half of last year. Their WR's are not much better than Miami's its probably a wash, even with Stevie Johnson. And we disagree on the running backs. CJ Spiller has done nothing and while Fred Jackson is a nice player who had 1 good year till he got injured, he is still a 31 year old running back coming off a leg injury. This year Buffalo might be in a slightly better position than Miami. Long term they aren't because they got that big Fitzpatrick contract around their neck and no young guy behind him being groomed.

As the thread as evolved into a discussion of the AFCE.  Here is my take.

NEP - Brady and crew are the obvious preseason favorite for the division.  Won the conf last year had no major losses.  No major upgrades either.

Bills - second best team in the division.  Steadly improving in all aspects of the game.  I predict they will be playing week 17 for a playoff spot. 

Jets - I think the Jets success will come down to what magic Tony S call pull off with Tebow and Sanchez.  Jets will be solid on defense, so it is really up to the offense.  Sanchez/Tebow >>> Pennington/Brown if they can make it work, e.g. line up with both of them and Sanchez actually be able catch a football thrown by Tebow, Jets could shock the league and win the SB.  OTOH, after week 2 there could be a divide in the lockerroom over who should be the QB and the team go 4-12.

Dolphins - Not very good last year, no real upgrades, 1st round pick used on a player that is projected to sit on the bench.  5-8 wins. 

^^Agree with this 100%. Anyone who thinks otherwise is fooling himself. -EK

I'd say Hoodie has a pretty reasonable outlook on how the division will fall out.  I wish he was a Dolphins fan because he is usually one of the most rational and insightful posters on the site.  How much do we need to pay you in order to get you to switch allegiances, hoodie?   ;D

Only one way.

I got a nephew who play high school football.  Probably good enough to play college.  If by some chance he turns out good enough to play pro and he plays for the Dolphins I will be a Dolphin fan for as long as he is on the team. 

Rooting for a family member would be the only way I would switch. 

Just because they used the 8th pick on Tannehill, I wouldn't classify the draft as no real upgrades. Actually compared to last year's draft, I think this one will be better even if Tannehill doesn't play a down this year (which I doubt). Consider the following.

2011 Draft - Tannehill QB, Martin OT, Vernon DE, Egnew TE, Miller RB, Kaddu OLB, Cunningham WR, Randall DT, Matthews WR
2010 Draft - Pouncey C, Thomas RB, Gates WR, Clay FB, Kearse DT, Wilson DB

- Pouncey was solid, but Martin will likely be just as much of a upgrade at RT.

- Thomas showed a little early on, but I was underwhelmed. Miller looks like he'll contribute more this year and in the following years.

- I thought Gates would struggle with routes and he has, but his hands are also suspect. Not sure that Cunningham or Matthews are any better, but I really love the kid Fuller that Miami got as an undrafted free agent. I suspect that Gates will be cut and Fuller will at the very least be kept on the practice squad if he doesn't make the 53 man roster.

- Clay played well later in the year as a threat to catch the ball out of the backfield. Engew will probably be an even bigger threat from the TE position.

- Kearse is gone, so if Vernon and/or Randall even make the team which seems likely it will be an improvement.

- Wilson has a shot at starting this year which might be the biggest surprise of last year's draft, but he's still really green and probably will need a little more seasoning.

- That leaves Kaddu and Tannehill from this year's draft. I haven't heard a lot about Kaddu, so don't know how he's doing, but early reports on Tannehill are encouraging. He's not that far behind the other QB's and that's all that can really be expected right now since both Garrard and Moore have so much experience on him. I still think it's quite possible that Miami cuts either Garrard or Moore, whichever doesn't win the starting role and they keep Tannehill as the #2 QB and Devlin as the #3. The reports are that Devlin is looking much improved and there simply aren't enough balls to go around for everyone.

^^^ I am not saying that the Dolphins drafted poorly and everyone will be useless.  But there is nobody that is a game changer.   

You mean this year? Personally I think that Tannehill and Miller will eventually be game changers although probably not this year and a couple more have potential although probably not game changers like Egnew and Vernon. I really liked this draft, but what do I know. Dolphins won't be in contention for the division and probably won't even be in contention for the playoffs this year, but I think they did improve.

I also liked the switch to the west coast offense and from a 3-4 to a 4-3 defense. I think both fit the personell better. I expect big years from Cameron Wake, who was dropping into coverage too often last year and will be just getting after the QB this year and Jared Odrick who moves a little further away from the ball where he can use his athleticism a little better. Clay, Miller and Egnew are perfect fits for a west coast offense.

I don't see the Jets as solid on defense. Once again its a team that keeps taking steps backwards. Where is the pass rush? Their safety's aren't anything special. Cromartie is Cromartie. The days of the dominating Jets defense are long gone.

The Dolphins upgraded at HEAD COACH! Something people forget. Even without ever coaching a ball game Philbin can't be worse than Tony "FG kickin-Fist-Pumpin" Sprano! It would almost be impossible for Philbin to be worse.

Also one could make the case that cutting Marshall is addition by subtraction with that lunatic. Not everyone will agree (don't need to have the same debate for the 10,000th time) but that might be the case in the long-run.

The offensive line has upgraded on the right side. Younger and more athletic. More depth as well with Murtha back.

We have a solid NICKLE CB and upgraded there.

We have quality DEPTH at QB. Something we didn't have last year

I don't see how anyone can say this team hasn't upgraded. This team won 6 games last year, granted vs terrible teams, but they won 6 after a horrible start and upgraded in many areas. This team isn't going to the playoffs, but they won't be awful like most think.

Last year this team was the 24th ranked RED ZONE OFFENSE, if they just get up to 15 or 16 in that category they will win 8 or 9 games and be at .500 or better with the defense Miami has.

Jees can we play a game before this blanket statement? Egnew might be a game changer. Vernon could be a specialty pass rushing game changer.

That's like saying the Patriots have "quality depth" at RB.

Sure, the competition for the starting job is very closely matched.  But one of the guys competing sat at home unemployed last year, so that does not indicate "quality."  Moore and Garrard would have trouble making the roster on most of the teams in the league (Garrard obviously so).

Miami upgraded- but not enough to not finish last in the division again. And oh yeah- the Jets- not solid at all on defense. Only 5th best D in football last year, although I'm sure there's some spin on how Miami's "can't stop anybody with their secondary, finished 15th overall" D is better. Insofar as pass rush, they had a whopping 6 less sacks than Miami, but more than made up for it turning the ball over- top 10 in INTs and led the league in forced fumbles. That's a defense that's still better than what Miami put on the field. Two years from now, the Dolphins may be a Wildcard team. This year, they're an AFC East last place team. -EK

It takes 2 years to "maybe" become a "Wild Card Team" in the NFL? Teams don't make the jump sooner? Hmm, nobody told Cincy and SF  that last year when they went from a bottom feeders to the playoffs overnight. ha ha, oh brother!

I like the fact we will TODAY use stats to base things on. (tomorrow when it works against an argument ...ie anything with Tebow or Sanchez...we won't, but I will play along today) Miami is 3rd in rushing defense.  the Jets 13th. Miami was 6th in scoring defense. The Jets were 20th in Scoring defense. Last time I checked the NFL keeps score in points and that's what those big numbers on the scoreboard keep track of.. The Dolphins were 10th in sacks. Jets 17th.  Dolphins defense gave up 31 TD's. The Jets gave up 39.

So by looking at these numbers you can assume the Jets defense is "GREAT" and the Dolphins "SUCKS".

And yet the Dolphins are 2 years away from "MAYBE" being a Wildcard team and the Jets are on the brink of greatness. ha ha ha ha ha!  You can't make it up!


I'm starting to put some stuff together here. EK hated the Tannehill pick. Yet, loves Tebow/Sanchez. EK wanted Miami to draft Quinton Coples. Coples lands on the Jets. Dolphins defense sucks in his eyes. Yet the Jets defense is great. And EK seems REALLY REALLY happy to predict the Fins to be a last place team this year. I'm thinkin EK is FIREMAN ED! I'm thinking he is really Fireman Ed! I have unmasked him. No wonder he loved Brandon Marshall. Every time he dropped a pass, smacked around a woman, and got arrested it meant bad things for Miami. Wouldn't Fireman Ed (errr EK) love that! ha ha ha

ehh, I see your point but still disagree and I think you are missing my point. The last full season Garrard played 2010, he made the pro bowl (and that was in Jax who had less weapons that Miami has currently). He was hurt last year. I am not holding it against him that he was hurt.  I am saying you can't use the ...he didn't play last year....as a basis to say he sucks or is nothing special. He was injured. He couldn't play. Not that nobody wanted him. Hell Oakland and Miami were begging for him, he just couldn't play. He was hurt.

Now Moore sucks, I ain't changing on that. The proof is in the pudding.  But Tannehill I believe will be OK in time.  The point I was making is would you rather have Henne/Moore/Devlin or Garrard/Tannehill/Moore. In my eyes its an upgrade. Still not a great overall unit (unless Tannehill comes along faster than everyone thinks), I never said they were. But its an upgrade overall at the position.

You're literally trying to make the argument that a 6-10 team that is clearly in a rebuilding season and that traded away it's best offensive player is better than an 8-8 team that lost who? I never said the defense "sucked." I also never said the Jets were on the brink of ANYTHING. I actually never said where I thought they'd finish- only that Miami would finish behind them. As per usual, you twist the words to fit your warped argument. Same old song. I love that you keep harping on the "6th in the league in scoring defense" bullshit for a 6-10 team. News flash- they were 27th in the league in 4th quarter scoring allowed, and last time I checked the final score is what matters, not how many points you give up through 3/4 of the game. So keep telling us all how the NFL keeps score in ponts, and I'll keep reminding you they also play four quarters and the team finished last in the division AND its six embarrasing wins came against teams with a combined 40-56. They lost EVERY game they played against a team with a winning record. ALL OF THEM. At least the Jets beat a couple of playoff teams.  Now...flat out tell me how a 5th in the league defense is worse in any capacity than a 15th ranked D. You keep coming back to "points are what matters," well last I checked the Jets scored more points than their opponents 2 more times than Miami did. Wait, wait...tell us again how you can't make this stuff up....-EK

Comparing a 6-10 team to am 8-8 team is outlandish? I think not! Especially since the 6-10 team BEAT them Week 17 to knock them out of the playoffs essentially. And teh 8-8 team didn't even make the playoffs. Yeah, not that crazy.

And I will keep harping on 6th in scoring defense if you keep harping on other stats. See, either ALL the stats count. Or NONE of them do! You can't use stats to back up a stance and then tell others they aren't allowed. Doesn't work that way! You want to cherry pick stats! I already told you how the Jets defense is worse.  Which defense gave up more points and more touchdowns? Jets! Nuff said.  Forced fumbles and INT's are nice, but at the end of the day we keep score in points. Not who gets more turnovers. You obviously disagree and you are entitled to disagree and be wrong, so settle down! Take a breath.

I like how in your world WINS and LOSSES only reflect on the defense and not the offense. And the Dolphins wins were against bad teams , meaning there defense sucks?? Not the fact that the offense couldn't score vs good teams at all.  But you use the 6 wins vs garbage teams to prop up Matt Moore.?? Once again confusing logic to say the least.  As always, can't make this stuff up! : )

And in closing that 8-8 team lost a few guys. Plaxico, LT, Jim Leonhard. And their Oline which was awful last year, they didn't upgrade that at all. They have no RB to speak of. And they brought in a bunch of coaches that failed in Miami to guide them Sparano, DeGugliemo...etc.

In my book the Jets are in the same boat as Miami. 7-9 win mark and nothing special. If you want to drink their bath water go for it. They ain't anything special and the defense gets worse every year in NY.

That's fine, but getting worse in the sense that they're #2, #2, #3, #5 STILL makes them better than anything Miami has, and they're STILL going to finish with a better record. -EK

Once again, overall record doesn't reflect ONLY on the defense. QB play and offense has a say in WINS and LOSES as well! Unless they have changed the rules, which I am pretty sure I would heard of.

This thread spiraled completely into a stupid "who is wrong" / "who is right" pissing match - for almost three pages - which added nothing to the thread at all.  ALL of the bickering back and forth posts from that point are gone.  No point in keeping this thread open any longer.