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So it's all over the news and I don't see how he doesn't get impeached. As much as i wouldn't put it past Democrats to mess this up. They don't even need to work hard at this. This is the mother of all self inflected wounds. Not only does he do something illegal, he then admits to it, releases proof that it happened and is illegal. His personal lawyer admits to breaking the law and then offers proof on live television.

I'm sure some people will claim Trump is playing 5-D chess with the Democrats, but I just think he's as dumb as a stupid rock.

It will pass the house and fail in the senate.  Mostly along party lines.  He won’t lose a single supporter over this all of whom will just ramble incoherently about Hillarys email and the real investigation should be into Biden.

That would be the best outcome for the democrats, it would seriously put the senate majority into play.

You are giving republicans too much credit.  He is going to lose less supporter over this than fans the Patriots lost over signing A. Brown.

I swear I say this with all sincerity. It looks like political suicide to me for the Democrats. The more it comes out how wrong the initial charge is the more ludicrous this gets. I swear one of my biggest liberal friends has recently turned his back and said he will vote Trump. I think this is more the case than college students and lazy people who will get off their butts to vote for free stuff. Most of America is sick of the many witch hunts. How many times do you have to get your arse handed to you before you realize making crap up doesn't work?

Fau, this is what I am talking about.  They don’t care,

LOL .... Do you care that one of your representatives lied over and over about the Ukrainian phone call yesterday? Do you care that Biden publicly admitted getting a Ukrainian official fired for investigating his son? Do you care that Obama and Clinton gave uranium and billions of dollars to some of our biggest enemies? I'm willing to be you have an excuse for why it's ok not to care about each one.

There's a great article on MSN about why not to impeach him ... and this is coming from a liberal writer.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/yes-trump-is-guilty-but-impeachment-is-a-mistake/ar-AAHTMIx

This is not what the country wants to talk about. Pelosi said she would not proceed with impeachment unless there was a bipartisan groundswell of support. There is no bipartisan groundswell, and yet she’s proceeding. According to a Quinnipiac University poll, only 37 percent of Americans support impeachment.

The presidential candidates all report the same phenomenon. Voters are asking them about health care and jobs and climate change, not impeachment. This week, while all this was unfolding, I was in Waco, Nantucket and Kansas City. I had conversations or encounters with hundreds of people. Only one even mentioned impeachment, a fellow journalist.

There is a big difference between the conversation Twitter wants to have and the conversation the broader populace wants to have.

Whatever it takes to get that psychotic child-weasel out of office...I'm good with it.

Hell...get a Republican in there that isn't a "down with the colored and the gay folks, and THE BIBLE IS LAW" type of nutjob, and I might even come back to the GOP and help vote his illiterate orange ass out of office.

1 - so what?
2 - so what?
3 - so what?

The first one is just wrong on your part, you claim a lie .. then prove it. where are the tapes? The 2nd one is a conspiracy theory that hasn't been corroborated and the 3rd one has repeatedly repeatedly .. holy shit repeatedly been discredited.

And even if the answer was yes I care very deeply about every part of what you said and biden and obama and hillary should all be in jail .. then so what ? Does that make what Trump did not illegal?  Don't bring whataboutism it has no value other than to distract.

OH i get it, my neighbor is a maga hat wearing trump or die guy. I see his posts on facebook, Trump could literally walk up to Biden and smash his legs with a baseball bat and they would say "but Biden had a son and his son was on the board of a multi-national oil company and look at what they did .. how dare they .. jail Biden" and completely ignore Trumps actions.

The part that doesn't work here is that while a max of 39% of voters will back Trump no matter what, last I checked .. 61 is more than 39. This is for the independents and for the democrats, I don't think anyone expects republicans to suddenly behave rationally. It'll be deflect deflect .. what about obama .. deflect .. lock her up .. deflect .. we're tired of investigations .. deflect .. witch hunt .. deflect. I get it.

I would be so happy to talk about stuff that matters.
Medicare for All, Free college tuition, eliminate student debt, a $15 minimum wage. A new wealth tax. Gun purchase checks. End global wars. Rollback all of Trump's environmental hack jobs. Increase the SCOTUS by 3-5 new justices to unroll the toxic effect #moscowmitch has had on the courts. Fix it so that amazon can't claim $0 in taxes. Eliminate tax free status for religious institutions. Eliminate charitable deductions from our tax code.

I'd be happy to talk about any or all of that.

That would be the "liberal writer" David Brooks, who worked at the well-known left-wing outlets National Review, Weekly Standard, and Wall Street Journal.  The same David Brooks who said in 2017 that one of his callings is "to represent a certain moderate Republican Whig political philosophy."

Remember, anyone to the left of Ted Cruz is  to be referred to as "progressive activist _________", and any media outlet to the left of Fox News is to be referred to as "liberal media outlet _______".

I'm sure everybody knows how impeachment works.   Trump WANTS to be impeached and is daring the Democrats to impeach him.   I'll tell you why.

Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton are the only two presidents who've been impeached. Their cases were very simple.  Both were acquitted by the Senate, as the Senate requires a two-thirds majority to convict.

What is the crime Trump is accused of committing?  There's no evidence of ANY crime. So there won't be a two-thirds majority voting to convict.

BUT.......

The Senate trial is a REAL TRIAL and Trump will have his own lawyers putting on his defense.  He'll declassify everything he needs in order to defend himself, which includes him presenting evidence of wrongdoing by the other side.   In other words a trial in the Senate will lead to the exposure of absolutely everything that the media has so far ignored.

Every news outlet will cover the trial daily and the country will see evidence of unprecedented criminality...... by the DEMOCRATS.  Biden is small potatoes. He doesn't even matter.  If Trump goes on trial, he's going to expose EVERY SINGLE CRIME the Democrats committed, going back to January of 2009.  Both Obama and the Clintons will be thrown in jail along with many others.

Not only will the Senate NOT convict Trump, this will be a death knell for the Democratic party.

We know that the "whistle blower" was GIVEN the information that Trump said "troubling" things in his phone call to the Ukrainian president.  The whistle blower was set up big time.

Trump has had three years to prepare for this. And now we'll see if the Democrats go all the way.
Impeachment is the death of the Democratic party.  NOT impeaching will make the base stay home in 2020.

In all scenarios, Trump wins.  And that's why he orchestrated this.

The generous take is that he asked a foreign country to dig up dirt on a political opponent.

The cynical take is that he pressured a foreign country to make up dirt on a political opponent by holding previously legislated military aid hostage.

Either of those scenarios are illegal.

Who knew what when or how a wistleblower got the information doesn't matter. The crime was already confessed to. And an impeachment isn't a criminal trial, it's political circus. He'll be indited the moment a democrat gets into the white house.

The information that the whistleblower was given was that Trump was reaching out to the leader of a foreign country for dirt on his political opponent (which is a crime).  That information was confirmed in the transcript that the White House released.

Blah, blah, blah. Trump is playing 4d chess and out smarts everyone yet again!  ::)

You clearly haven't been paying attention to anything if you're asking what has he done to cause impeachment. Forget everything from the Mueller report, but with the Ukraine AND Australian call, he's using his political office for personal gain and looking for dirt on political rivals. Now he's trying to find who the whistle-blower is. ALL OF THAT IS A CRIME. Are you this dense?

It's not a crime. In fact we have a treaty (signed by Clinton)with the Ukraine that encourages it. Why do you think Nancy never actually took a vote? Behind the scenes they are in panic mode because they have nothing. They thought they could BS the public because the transcripts were secret and then Trump released them and blew that up.

The Democrats have spent billions of our dollars to defeat Trump and they have failed every time. Sooner or later you guys will wise up and at least find some competent politicians. If nothing else quit getting your news from CNN and MSNBC.  hahahaha

(https://i.imgflip.com/2vwc3b.jpg)

What alleged treaty encourages violating 52 U.S. Code § 3012?

TREATY WITH UKRAINE ON MUTUAL LEGAL
ASSISTANCE IN CRIMINAL MATTERS
can be found here:
https://www.congress.gov/106/cdoc/tdoc16/CDOC-106tdoc16.pdf



This following is contained in Clinton's Letter of Transmittal which highlights some bullet points of the treaty but I have included a link to the cover letter to the Senate

Senate confirmation: https://www.congress.gov/treaty-document/106th-congress/16/document-text

The Treaty is one of a series of modern mutual legal
assistance treaties being negotiated by the United States in
order to counter criminal activities more effectively. The
Treaty should be an effective tool to assist in the prosecution
of a wide variety of crimes, including drug trafficking
offenses. The Treaty is self-executing. It provides for a broad
range of cooperation in criminal matters.

Just skimmed the treaty.

The treaty does not authorize the POTUS to blackmail Ukraine into providing dirt on a political opponent. 

And Trump violated the protocol of requiring all requests be provided in writing.

this is what grasping at straws looks like

Why add the word blackmail like something CNN did? There was no blackmail or threat. We've all read the transcript and if you haven't then why argue it? Since we are adding things then I should add that Pelosi kicked his arse and made him to make that call. hahaha Wow ... this is kind of fun. 

Can you provide the blackmail part in the transcript? I don't see it.

Look in the mirror brother. You guys said the same thing about Russia and the Mueller report and what came of it? Nothing burger. The Mueller investigation did not support Schiff’s or any other Democrat's promised conclusion. In fact, it found that there was no collusion, cooperation or coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign. Just because the make believe media says it does not make it true.

I have been relatively quiet about all of this stuff since he's taken office.

But it's indefensible at this point.  He's working with foreign governments, using the office for personal gain.  He's been doing it since before he took office, in fact.  This is also the Russia situation, but in that case, there were so many moving parts and it was in the rear-view mirror...harder to get a smoking gun.

But this is obvious.  The GOP talking points can't stick and are all over the place.  They are slamming the way in which the whistle was blown, whataboutism with Biden, everyone does it, he did it but there was no quip pro quo, etc.  None of it is sticking because there's really no defense.  He can't claim he didn't do it because it's all out there, so the spin machine is failing.

You can read the statement yourself.  You can hear Giuliani admit to it.  And there's constantly moving the goalpost about who knew what and when.  It's because they tried to cover it up and hide it because they knew it was wrong.

And the numbers are shifting to reflect this.

There are some Trump supporters who will never change.  He said it himself.  I could shoot someone in the street and not lose voters.  For some people, he was right.  And those are grasping at straws to protect him at all costs. 

Trump is a disgusting, moral-less egomaniac and is the mouthpiece for Christianity.  That alone should shock you to your core.  It just goes to show you how people can brainwash themselves.  This man is the antithesis of Christianity in every imaginable way and he's their champion.  It's absolutely insanity.


I can't say that the GOP will oust him -- though they certainly might....and he would have to resign.  But this is most definitely real and has consequences.

Pres of Ukraine asks for military assistance, Trump responds by asking for an investigation into his political opponent’s son.

That's not blackmail. That's 2 separate things within the same conversation. So if Trump hung up after the military assistance conversation and called back the next day and discussed an investigation of a suspected crime by Biden then it would have been OK?

If you call me to borrow $20 and at the end of the conversation I ask you if you can give me a ride to the airport the next day. I'm not blackmailing you. You people are nuts....

it would just make it less obvious .. this is obvious .. also if I ask you to take me to the airport and you ask me for $20 that's the textbook definition of a quid-pro-quo .. you do something for me .. and in exchange i do something for you .. you rub my back and i'll rub yours .. how many other ways can you say it? you're sitting here admitting with your analogy that a quid-pro-quo is exactly what happened based on a transcript trump provided.. that's already illegal, him even asking for ukraine to investigate biden is already illegal .. it isn't for the US government .. it's for trump2020 .. that's what makes it illegal!

There was enough in the Mueller report to impeach. His recommendation was for congress to conduct an impeachment investigation. The democrats just decided not to. Which i disagreed with. Also Trump 2016 provided polling data to the russian government .. how can you say there was no coordination. Stay away from where you get your fake news. It's not doing you any favors.

Only if the $20 is contingent on you giving me a ride to the airport. That's the missing link. There was no threat if he didn't comply with Trump's request. Anyhow, we'll agree to disagree. You seem emotional today, haha.

Implying emotions where there are none is more of a reflection of your mindset. Are you ok?

I'm fabulous. Anyhow, if you say so, hahahaha.

No offense but you sound just like CNN. I have to ask ... why do you think they didn't take a vote when supposedly they had all the votes they needed if it was so cut and dry? In fact ... since they went on break it has come out that Pelosi (Pelosi admitted it in an interview) knew exactly what was in the transcript before Trump even released it. If you don't think all this "hype" was a political set up then you aren't paying attention. They are bluffing and you can fill in the blanks for what it is they don't want the American people to pay attention to.

Impeachment is a political action. Not a criminal one. If your argument is that a political action is political... Duh.

It's just like the Democrats to be playing politics with serious matters.

Unlike an attack on an embassy, a private e-mail server, or a blowjob from a subordinate, which are extremely serious issues that Republicans care about all the time, not just when they can make political hay from them.

I was against the Clinton impeachment the whole time. seemed super dumb to be fighting over a husband and wife issue. The attack against Americans and our embassy is a huge issue. It is an attack on this country itself and the fact you do not recognize that is scary.  The email server is completely rationale as well for a matter of national security.  This impeachment is strictly political for appearances and nothing more as all involved know its nothing before they even begin. they just need it to appear legit.

I guess Russia trying to sabotage our country by putting a moron in the presidency wasn't an attack on our country?
Also Ivanka using a private emial server isn't a big deal cause you know .. she's not in gov .. oh wait ..

I'm not even talking about the politics of it CF.   If you want to argue that the Dems played it wrong or that they waited for evidence that they already had or whatever...go ahead.

Just clear the table for a second and look at it.

Trump is a creep.  He's a compulsive liar.  He's not befitting of the role of leadership.  I believe he's got a disorder -- he's literally egomaniacal...can't help himself.  And these stories are true.  Russia, Ukraine....all of it.  Whether or not there's enough evidence to convict in a court, I can't say -- but just use your brain.  Do you trust this guy is being honest?   Ever?  People close to him are going to jail, he's constantly throwing people out and then badmouthing them and infighting.  His entire everything is a disaster.

He did this shit.  And you know he did.  And the Republicans know he did.  He said he did.  And this is how the guy has run businesses all his life.

Now, they may very well do nothing about it, because of self-preservation or because they feel that it's worth protecting the ideology. 

But history will judge this man as a pariah to our country.  He will be looked back on like Nixon or McCarthy.  And there will be some people who always think he was framed or set up...just like there are people who died still supporting Nixon's involvement in Watergate.  It's just a question of which camp you're going to be in.  I certainly can't convince you.  If you see all this, think it's cool, and you're alright with who he is, how he acts, what he says, and what he does....then the cake is baked for you and there's not much more to say.

Trump has daily behavior....daily....that would be the biggest scandal of an entire term of other presidents.  If Bush mentioned civil war in retaliation to looking into his stuff, people would've lost it.  If Obama constantly attacked the oversight of other branches of government, it would've been over for him.  And on and on.

If you think he's doing well, then it's over for you and history will leave you behind as one of the brainwashed.

Everyone has opinions and I don't know if Trump will win a second term or not. None of us do. However, if he does win a second term. What will history say then? Will history leave you and the rest of the impeachment crowd behind as one of the brainwashed? Or are your opinions correct no matter what?

It's not a matter of impeachment or not.

I'm talking about regular human decency.  Plenty of bad people in history had the support of the public, but history judged them poorly.  Trump will be one of those.   There's no way we're going to look back on a President twitter attacking the entirety of his tenure and think that he was good for the Republic.

I disagree Dave. I think you are only seeing what they want you to see because from what I see they have nothing. I get most of my info from anything not FOX, CNN or MSNBC although I do read them in order to see the extremist side to things.  I have not seen Trump admit it although I have seen Biden brag about threatening them. What I have seen is the transcript and several interviews with Ukraine president who vehemently denies he was threatened or pressured. The fact some third party soft Democrats like to add between the lines to make it say something it doesn't does not surprise me at all.  

Because if they did have full House vote authorizing a formal inquiry. The House Minority Republicans would then have full subpoena authority. Without a vote, the Democrats are only ones who have the rights to gather official information. A vote would actually give the Republicans due process and make sure that both sides are heard. You know the Democrats aren't big on due process and don't want a fair process. With them it's guilty until proven innocent. Or in Trump's case, guilty at all costs.

if CF thinks CNN is liberal he's literally never seen TYT

Also this press conference with the finnish president. A finnish reporter just asked the president of Finalnd what political favors Trump asked of him.

You are wasting your time, CF and Pondwater are among the “stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and not lose any voters." cult.
 

The hole in your plot is that I didn't even vote for Trump. Jokes on you sucker, hahaha.

Being the selfish A-hole that I am, I couldn't care less whether he gets impeached or not.  My life is not directly changed in the least no matter who the president is.  Few if any of you have your lives directly changed no matter who the president is either.   The last time my life was directly changed by a president was when George W. Bush was president and I ended up in Iraq.  I kind of enjoyed being deployed so even that was fine with me.  For the vast majority of us, the things that our city commissioners do have a much larger direct impact on each of us as individuals than who is occupying the White House at any given time.  Before the flaming starts with "Trump hates people of color" and "Obama hated Christians", please read my post again and focus on the parts where I say repeatedly that "my life" is not impacted by who the president is.  I didn't say anything about "groups" being impacted. 

This is your first mistake, you should be watching the Late Show with Stephen Colbert. Fucking hilarious.  >:D

you know .. that show started off kinda slow at first .. but he's really hit his stride and he's pretty damn funny

In conservative reality, CNN is "extremist" and centrists don't exist.

Mitch McConnell wouldn't even let the Senate vote on Obama's Supreme Court nomination, and to this day is preventing the Senate from taking a vote on a bill to stop foreign interference in future elections.

Spare me with these "Democrats are shamefully playing politics with important matters!" crocodile tears.  At least the Republicans will get a chance to vote on whether or not Trump is impeached, which is more than Merrick Garland got.

Last week tonight with John Oliver is better.

Not sure what any of that has to do with this thread. Merrick Garland wasn't accused of a crime. So I guess you're saying that you don't think that the Republicans should have full subpoena authority in order to gather information? Or that the POTUS should have fair due process? Gotcha

"Not sure what the stuff we did has to do with the stuff you are doing now.  Trump was never accused of getting a BJ from an intern, so this is apples and oranges."

But OK, let's get hyper-specific and talk only about what Democrats and Republicans in the House of Representatives did about accusations that President Donald J. Trump committed a crime.

House Democrats have been saying that Trump violated the law since at least day 1 of his presidency.  Can you explain why it wasn't until 2019 that all these House investigations (e.g. into Trump's tax returns) started?  I mean, given the solemn respect for the rights of the minority party that House Republicans obviously live by, the fact that the Democrats took control in 2019 surely could not have played a factor.  So what was it?

Ugh, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert is unwatchable for me.  I'm a Democrat, a centrist Democrat, and I loved The Colbert Report, and was happy he was taking over Letterman (although I would have preferred Craig Ferguson), but Colbert has become a one trick pony - anything anti-Trump.  It's tired comedy.  I stopped watching over a year ago, and every once in a while I'll turn it on and it's still non stop anti-Trump; whether it's the monologue, or no matter who the guests are.  I liked late night comedy for a variety of topics and guests, but it's nothing but non stop Trump bashing.  If college students wanted to make a drinking game out of every time he mentions Trump none of them would make it to class the next day because they would be too hung over.

So I guess that you're trying to say is that you don't think that the Republicans should have full subpoena authority in order to gather information? Or that the POTUS should have fair due process?

No. They had their chance his first 2 years. This is due process. Investigation doesn't have 2 sides. That's for the trial in the Senate.

If there is one thing that all of us should be able to agree upon, it is that 90% (conservative estimate) of all politicians (regardless of party affiliation) suck and are astoundingly untrustworthy. 

Well Trump is the funniest thing happening these days. Can't blame him for taking advantage of that. His ratings have skyrocketed ever since Trump took office. If you don't laugh at this stuff, you just become depressed by it.

And trump just asked China publicly to dig up dirt on Biden. It's just a "fuck you laws" moment there.

This, exactly.

If the Republicans wanted more input on the investigation process, maybe they shouldn't have stonewalled all calls for investigation during Trump's first two years.  We already know what the GOP input on Trump investigations is: "shut up".

Because Trump has damning evidence that could put a bunch of key players in the Democratic party away for a long time.   Investigate all you want.   Impeach him.   Put him on trial.   That's exactly what he wants.   Because he will nail some people to the wall.  He and the GOP warned the Democrats to shut up.  They chose to push this matter to the limit.  Now they're gonna pay. 

The funny thing is that they haven't even filed for impeachment. This means when they reach out to the White House to give up "whatever info" that it is not a legal request and are basically asking for a favor. Contrary to admitting that they are saying publicly "obstruction" when they know it's not. This furthers my theory that its all for show and that they know they have nothing. I've seen first hand local politicians do it and at best that is what this looks like to me.

I know there is always a possibility Trump might be doing something illegal but my money is on him. So far Democrats have done nothing to show they are competent in anything and Trump keeps winning.     

Nancy Pelosi Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry of Trump (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/24/us/politics/democrats-impeachment-trump.html)

What you are seeing now are real, actual impeachment investigations, to be followed by a vote on whether or not Trump is impeached.

And right on cue, Trump just asked ANOTHER foreign country (China) to investigate his political rival AGAIN, on LIVE TV.

That should indicate that we have quickly progressed to the end stage of Trump apologism: "Of course Trump is working with foreign leaders to undermine his opponents, and why shouldn't he?  That makes him smart."

It's obvious that he's doing the wrong thing to anyone who looks at it.  Just imagine how you'd feel if Barack Obama was in office, using the office of the presidency to investigate Mitt Romney leading up to an election.  Honestly, ask yourself if you'd be cool with that.

And his strategy is to do the wrong thing more, openly, to water it down.  And it's working.

Republicans will do nothing and we're asking and allowing assistance from foreign rivals to get involved in our democratic process.

This is madness, but because the GOP is in power, they will do nothing to stop it because it is their madness.  There will be a few that speak out, they will be shouted down as fake Republicans and then we'll have more of the same.

But she “hasn’t” done it ...lmao. You play right into their games. I’m guessing on purpose but who knows for sure. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

There is no impeachment inquiry. There are no subpoenas.

You are not to be faulted if you think a formal inquest is under way and that legal process has been issued. The misimpression is completely understandable if you have been taking in media coverage - in particular, reporting on a haughty Sept. 27 letter from House Democrats, presuming to direct Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, on pain of citation for obstruction, to cooperate in their demands to depose State Department officials and review various records.

The letter is signed by not one but three committee chairmen. Remember your elementary math, though: Zero is still zero even when multiplied by three.

What is portrayed as an "impeachment inquiry" is actually just a made-for-cable-TV political soap opera. The House of Representatives is not conducting a formal impeachment inquiry. To the contrary, congressional Democrats are conducting the 2020 political campaign.

While I agree Trump is unfit for office and has committed multiple impeachable offenses, President Trump has done nothing fundamentally different than what Candidate Trump did.

Is asking the Ukraine President to find dirt on a political opponent impeachable?  Absolutely!  Fundamentally different from asking the Russian President the same thing on national TV?  Not at all.

Is using the office of the presidency to funnel money into his private business impeachable?  Absolutely!  Fundamentally different from using his candidacy to funnel taxpayer FEC matching funds and political contributions into his private business?  Not at all.

The White House is said to be preparing a letter to send to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi 'daring' her to hold a vote on the Democrats' impeachment inquiry into President Trump's dealings with Ukraine.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7536863/Donald-Trump-send-letter-Nancy-Pelosi-daring-hold-impeachment-vote-TODAY.html

When House Republican Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy requested yesterday that she take a vote Pelosi rejected his request, saying there is no constitutional need for a House vote. She said she would rather play this soap opera for the Fake Media than actually do something. OK ... she didn't say the last part but if you read between the lines you can clearly see that's her goal.

That makes all the difference in the world. Doing something as a candidate is one thing, doing it as the president is something completely different.

Neither his supporters nor opponents actually expected him to act differently as Prez than as a candidate.

If you didn’t feel his asking Russia to interfere with the 2016 election disqualified him to be President, you are unlikely to support him being removed for asking Ukraine to interfere in the 2020 election.  His actions before being elected should have disqualified him and resulted in a quick primary exit. 

As candidate Trump, when he openly asked Russia to go after Clinton's emails, everyone flipped out.  His response was that he was joking.  He was lying....again....obviously.

Now he did it with Russia.  And then he said he didn't and there was no smoking gun.  He was lying.

Then he did it with Ukraine.  There was no lying and saying he didn't because he admitted to it on TV.

So, he's normalizing it by doing it again with China.

And his supporters don't care.

Please... If The Muppet-in-Chief had that sort of information, he would have tweeted it roughly 30 seconds after learning about it.

CF, you are operating under the false impression that the start of official impeachment proceedings requires a vote from the House.  It does not.

Even McCarthy's letter makes this clear; he says that without a vote, Pelosi would be "acting in direct contradiction to all modern impeachment inquiries of a sitting president."  You will note that nowhere is it claimed that the House is required to hold a vote to authorize an impeachment inquiry; he's just saying it's violating norms (like, say, the norm that a presidential nominee to the Supreme Court should receive a vote).

Constitutionally, whether the House votes on an impeachment inquiry makes no difference (and I await any citation of the Constitution that says otherwise).  The moment the Speaker declares that an impeachment inquiry has started, it has started.  The only vote they have to take is the vote to approve articles of impeachment, which requires a majority.

I completely agree. What I'm saying is that his actions as the president make it an impeachable offense. What he did when he was a candidate while deplorable didn't rise to the offense of an impeachable act. That's the difference.

Disagree, if Nixon had broken into Hubert Humphrey campaign office before being elected president, rather than McGovern’s it would not have diminished the crime in the least.

Fair enough, but Nancy Pelosi and others seem to disagree with you. She changed her tune on this latest incident and the rhetoric has been it's because this was done while in the white house acting as the POTUS among other reasons. Nixon didn't resign solely on the fact that he ordered the bugging but also on trying to cover it up as well as many other serious crimes that may not have even been possible if he's not the POTUS at the time. I see something similar with Trump in this latest incident. The watergate bugging only got the ball rolling on Nixon, once everything that he was doing came out that's when he was forced to resign. I kinda see that happening here as well. Most of this is abuse of power stuff. You can't have that without the power.

So, barring everything up to yesterday, Mick Mulvaney just admitted to quid pro quo with the Ukraine call and says they do it all the time. In a press conference. I mean, that is literally grounds for impeachment. In any other world, this would be a slam dunk for impeachment. Former Trump admin aides are coming in to testify and provide background to everything. Let's see how the R's keep defending this guy.

/\ Doesn't change a think.  He could shoot someone on 5th Avenue Republican Senators won't vote to remove

Oh, I know, you're right. The majority of the R's don't care about the rule of law.

It's really sad that you never get the irony in saying things like this. Both sides, for the most part, are bat shit crazy when it comes to overlooking hypocritical issues of their own party.

There has always been some of that, for eons.  But it has never been to this degree.  At this point support for Trump is like if the democratic party rallied behind Rod Blagojevic, because they agreed with him ideologically.   

The more I think about the Democratic party handling of Rod Blagojevich after hearing the audio tape is the perfect comparison to the Republican response to the Trump Ukraine audio tape.  Both are irrefutable evidence of an elected executive abusing his authority for personal gain.  One Democratic house member voted against his impeachment and three abstained, there is no way I could vote for any of those 4, as they failed to do their job in keeping the executive branch in check.  The same standards apply to those who still support Trump

The problem here is that he actually means it and his supporters will still defend him even if they saw him shoot someone. And I bet after showing you the video footage of it you'd still deny he did anything wrong. Just like the UN of him laughing that you didn't see it that way.

That seems less of an issue than supporting Hillary to me and yet ... she has a lot of supporters still to this day. There is no way a person can support her without overlooking tons of crap and that's exactly my point. As long as people get whatever it is they want they will overlook quite a bit.

I am not thrilled with Hillary, but nothing she did ever came close to Trump.  Plus, Hillary is irrelevant.  What is relevant is did the POTUS abuse the office, in using foreign policy to create election interference.   And there is no question about that.  His abuse of power is even more obvious than R. B.

*YAWN* Probably should start working on your next Trump conspiracy since the last dozen or so haven't worked out.

I don’t need to do anything for the next incident that is worthy of his removal from office and imprisonment that the republicans will defend as no big deal.  Trump will provide it.

Stop worrying about Hillary. She isn't going to get you. You're safe. Also, what conspiracy theories are you referring to that haven't worked out so far? The ones that are actually real but the R's won't do anything about?

About 30 House reps, led by Matt Gaetz of all people, are trying to break into a closed door impeachment hearing in protest. Even though there are R's in the hearing, they're saying they're being excluded and shut out from it. Such a publicity stunt by a bunch of children who don't actually want to get the answers, but instead continue to put party over country.

I know we will never agree but I have to ask as I don't understand. How do you think they are they not wanting answers when they are wanting things to be out in the open as they always have? It would seem to me that the party, whichever one, that has changed things to be secretive would have an agenda.

It's all that transparency and tolerance that you hear the left always preaching about, LMAO.

Admit it...You're one of those guys that always laughs really loud at their own jokes in public, even when they really aren't funny.

It is not unusual for intelligence committee to have closed door hearings when dealing with classified material.  This one occurred during the Bengazi hearings as well. Nobody stormed the room.  Republicans are out of control.

 

I love how you add ...Republican's are out of control as if it adds to your point. The truth is impeachment hearings have always been public. Impeachment hearings are fact finding hearings. The need to fact find in secrecy and release only what you want people to see and hear is political. This means the "truth" is not the most important part for the Democrats.

No, I'm one of those guys that will laugh in your face and hope you put your hands on me.

I am even okay with televising it live ...... as long as Cooper is prohibited from refusing to answer a question on the grounds that the material is classified.  Which is exactly what is going to happen in an open hearing.

It's not a secret. Plenty of R's have access to the proceedings and transcripts. There are even republicans on the committees asking questions. This isn't like how republicans held no committees on repealing the ACA and excluding the democrats. This is how the rules are setup and they are following them. There is a lot of classified material being shared and they decided to follow the rules and hold it where things like that is normally held.

What's so secretive?

This is another reason why Trump needs to go. This is his base. MLB umpire threatening to start a Civil War and buy an AR-15 if Trump is impeached. This is the base of the republican party.

https://sports.yahoo.com/report-mlb-umpire-threatens-to-buy-ar-15-start-cival-war-over-trump-impeachment-hearings-234819500.html

This is a given. If you didn't know that you haven't been paying attention. This started when people started attacking cops, continued when Trump was elected and Democrats vowed to impeach him from day one, and now talking about taking guns from citizens. Obama era created Trump. The silliness that seems to get worse every day is creating something much more. I think Democrats have forgotten that the Republicans and Libertarians are mainly the same people who fought for freedom. I know they have forgotten they are the same ones who gave women rights to vote and freed the slaves so it doesn't surprise me. It's no accident that military, police, and fire are not known for voting democrat.  

^^^ The current GOP bears zero resemblance to the GOP of ancient history.

I also like how you shoehorned "This started when people started attacking cops" into the impeachment thread ("OMG...if you want Trump impeached, you must want cops to die!"). Your manipulation skillz seem to be improving.

I wasn't addressing impeachment per se. I was addressing the fact that liberal policies are creating hostile reaction from the other side... which is what his post was about. The "fake" impeachment is just one of a long list of things.

You are now justifying violence, civil war and treason because Congress is doing its job of investigating Constitutional violations by the President.

And what exactly do you mean by attacking cops?  Holding Guyger and Dean and others accountable?

^^^ If he thinks of it as a "fake impeachment," it makes it easier to ignore the truth about all the heinous crap that he's doing.

It doesn’t bear much resemblance to the Republican party that nominated McCain.

So the Obama era created racists, bigots, party over country, etc...? Those were always there. Racism didn't die because we elected Obama. The republican party is finding out what their people are actually made of. Just look at some of the Trump supporters here. No empathy. Ignorant to facts.

In any case, you are basically admitting that the republican base are people who will start a Civil War against the country who want to remove a President that has committed a crime. Please tell me how that is OK?

Bonus points, try and form an explanation that doesn't involve Obama, Hillary, Benghazi, Clinton, or "BuT hEr EmAiLs!". Go!

Since day 1 Democrats have been saying to impeach him and for dozens of issues that are not impeachable. Excuse me if I'm skeptical of reason number 100 of being legit. As in the past .. most "leaked" information has turned out to be incorrect so until proven otherwise I have no reason to see it as legit.   

Just add #1-#100 together and vote your conscience...the math is pretty simple.

LOL .... I don't even know where to start here. Maybe the obvious.  People are sick of political correctness ruling this country and it's continually getting worse. The more it happens the more our country is weakened. The same people wearing pussies and dildos on their heads and thinks all masculine men are useless pigs are calling Trump and his supporters racist and bigots. Most people can't name one actual thing he has done that is racist. In fact he has done more for blacks than Obama in 8 years.  The name calling is useless and just like when you did it ... it means absolutely nothing.  What means more is that Trump was a champion for blacks right up until he won an election as a Republican. Now he has freed blacks from jail sentences and given them access to more money but he's a racist? hahaha

Racism still exists but it doesn't have much of an impact as a whole. Minorities have held pretty much every position of power and will continue to do so.  The question is how will democrat leaders function when they can no longer use the race card?  

Again, which items are you saying are not impeachable that they want to impeach him for? Emoluments? Profiting off of the presidency? Getting high profile donors position of power (Devos, Ukrainian ambassador, etc...)? Language to destabilize the US into armed conflict/Civil War? Doing Putin's work for him (believing him over our entire intelligence departments)? I mean, I could go on.

Let me know which ones are wrong.

I'm sorry but Trump hurting your feelings is not a legitimate reason to impeach.

I don't know if you watch Fox News or not, so I don't know how much faith you put in Judge Napolitano, but he reaffirmed what we all knew, which is that the Democrats are using the rules put in place by Republicans to handle things like this. John Boehner and the Republican majority in 2015 added these rules. The Republicans shouldn't be upset that the Democrats are just following their rules.

LMAO ... The Russia thing was settled. It never happened. The Mueller investigation did not support Schiff’s promised conclusion. In fact, it found that there was no collusion, cooperation or coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign. Just like all the other "conspiracy theories" ... they have all fallen apart when the facts came in. The fact you believe them still today let's me know you get all of your news from bias liberal rags.

Rarely. I get my news from Daily Mail, MSN, CNN for kicks as I like to see the other side, and my local stations. Talking heads from FOX NEWS and MSNBC are so extreme it gives me a headache. 

Violence? You mean Antifa?

You know you're arguing with the coo coo's nest right? Take a rest, it's going to get tiring. They will never stop their insanity.

Another funny item that's showing up now, is that 12 of the republicans that stormed into the closed door meeting were already allowed to attend if they wanted. There was no need for any of this.

I only respond when bored as I sit and watch people work. As well ... I never take anything personal. I've been here a long time and I've yet to see anyone change their opinion. They will spend many hours defending it but not one minute of change. I guess that goes for me too though ... hahahaha

You are really ignoring all the threats of violence by pastors, senators, and other seemingly regular joes because of a criminal president going through by the book impeachment hearings? Man, what a world you live in.

This is just flat out incorrect. Muller was unable to prosecute the president because the justice department rules says that he can't prosecute the president. He said it's the job of congress to investigate through the impeachment process.  Just the checks he had cut to pay off his porn-bang were enough to get him indited for campaign finance violations. And if you don't think he will be as soon as he's out of office .. you're in for a surprise

Right on time this article popped up on the Daily Mail and it doesn't have anything to do with impeachment.

Majority of Americans believe the country is on the brink of civil war and blame Trump, social media and journalists for a growing division, says new poll


-New poll says public blames social media, news media, and Trump for divisions

-Georgetown University Institute of Politics director said: 'Majority of Americans believe that we are two-thirds of the way to being on the edge of civil war'

-Expert believes the 2020 Presidential election 'has the potential to be a race to the bottom' and it's possible voters won't like either candidate

-Nearly 84% said they're 'tired of leaders compromising [their] values and ideals'
Respondents want 'compromise and common ground' plus leaders who 'stand up to the other side' which Georgetown director said 'creates mixed messages'

-A Democrat pollster of the bipartisan survey said Trump isn't the cause of today's 'rude' politics but the symptom of a new society


I think this about sums it up. eight in 10 voters want both 'compromise and common ground' as well as leaders who 'will stand up to the other side'.... 'The majority of Americans believe that we are two-thirds of the way to being on the edge of civil war. That to me is a very pessimistic place,' Elleithee added. 'It seems to me what they're saying is, "I believe in common ground, it's just that common ground is where I'm standing".'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7610393/Majority-Americans-think-country-brink-civil-war-blame-Trump-division.html

Again...this is bullshit.

Conservatives don't want middle ground. 

Obamacare was the middle-ground.  Conservatives killed it.  Liberals want socialized medicine.  Conservatives want a complete free market.  The compromise was Obamacare.  Mandated free-market health care...killed.

Again...the mainstream democrat position IS the middle ground on almost every issue.

This is more "both sides are the problem" bullshit.

Ugh....I feel like such a dick.

I really appreciate CF trying to give the olive branch.


But my side has been giving the olive branch my whole life.  Meet me in the middle for once.

Dave with all do respect it's not the middle just because you say it is compared to the line you have drawn. Take Obamacare for instance and I'll only use one part. It forced people to pay for insurance and then penalized them if they didn't. How is that meeting in the middle? There is no choice and that is communism to me. Meeting in the middle is allowing people to choose to participate. The previous conditions mandate is good but there needs to be some sort checks and balances so it is not abused.

not to belabor the point but
a - it was a republican plan to begin with
b - the choice was to not buy health insurance and instead pay a tax. communism is nothing like that, in fact you could say that a government mandate to buy products and services provided by a private corporation is in fact the opposite of communism. just because it's "There is no choice and that is communism to me" doesn't make it communism, it would be just as accurate for you to say "There is no choice and that is astronomy to me"

Obamacare was way less aggressive in providing care to all than the more socialistic program proposed by Richard Nixon.

Republicans today would consider Nixon and Reagan as bleeding heart liberals.

Trump's definitely getting impeached, however, he won't be convicted, and even if he is, removal from office won't be the penalty seeing as he has such a short time left in office.  I absolutely guarantee you 100000% that this makes his re-election an absolute stone cold lock of the century.

Serious question for the folks in this thread, I have a legit curiosity:  

Outside of "hearing myself talk" why do you participate in verbal jarring with folks about politics?  You're not changing your mind, no matter what you put into caps or how many insults you toss around the other folks won't, either.  

Your intended audience is barely reading what you write.  They are simply sitting back and waiting to attack what you've written and say you're wrong, in some form or another.

Scroll through these nine pages, see for yourselves.

So, why bother?  

I think it's important to get on the record.  And I think that a lot of people (myself included) are in a bubble of like-minded friends, so it can be helpful to see what other people think and how willing they are to engage in discussion or see your points.

I like to think I'm pretty fair-minded and am capable at giving an inch.  Maybe I'm naive, but that's my intention, at least.

So in 50 years when grandchildren ask me, “Grandpa, why did you allow such a madman to take over the country and do so much damage to our democracy and the world?”. I can honestly tell them, I never supported Trump.

Despite whom they are directed towards, my posts in these threads are not for people like CF or pondwater; I know they are politically aware enough to easily develop reasons to dismiss anything I might bring up to them.

My posts are aimed at two audiences:

1) People like myself when I was in my twenties.  While I was a consistent voter, outside of the presidency I didn't particularly follow politics and subscribed to the kind of "both parties are terrible so who cares" mentality that's common among many.  It wasn't until 2008 that I learned that the two major parties have some really meaningful distinctions.  There are many people who don't really know a whole lot about politics, view some random right-wing commentary by someone who seems to know what they are talking about, and get lured down the rabbit hole to conservatism (or worse, the alt-right).  My goal is to prevent that - or ideally, reverse it.

2) Other leftists like Fau and Dave.  I have personally benefited a great deal by reading and watching people smarter and more politically experienced than me poke holes in right-wing arguments, and I hope that my observations here may be useful to fellow liberals when they have these kinds of discussions in other contexts (especially: in real life).

So yeah, I'm not naive enough to think that (for example) I can convince a Republican that taxes are a good thing, or convince a Christian that the idea of God is not necessary to live a moral life.  I'm just hoping to convince the bystanders, or failing that, provide a bigger song list to the choir.

P.S. Something many in this thread may find amusing: at my work, I have a co-worker who is in the Bernie/Jill Stein "Hillary rigged the primary" crowd.  He considers me to be a neoliberal establishment shill and not really even a true leftist.  Politics are relative.  ;)

I strongly doubt August Landmesser changed anyone’s mind or that his actions had any appreciable impact on events in history.  Yet, I still challenge the dismantling of democracy.

This is an excellent point, and one that I agree with.  Dan sometimes phrases my own words better than I know how.  Or can Occam's Razor my position to be simpler and more straightforward to understand.

I also would like it said that sometimes I just don't have the energy for every fight on every topic, so I really like to lurk.  Sometimes I take the lead in the discussion and sometimes I just can't.  And sometimes, someone with my position is doing a fine job of representing my side, so I stay out and enjoy the narrative. 

I only get into these threads when bored. I'm old enough to know no one gets their opinion changed by reading an alternative on a message board. I will say that since the left views in here are quire far left I do sometimes hear opinions I wasn't expecting.  Most of the leftists I associate with would be considered almost conservative by comparison  and that goes for my gay and lesbian friends and relatives. 

it's also dependent on what you consider yourself to be .. there's left vs right then there corporatist vs populist and i think that the populist left gets labeled as far left .. but in reality it's much more majoritarian than the corporatist left is

The gays and most extreme liberals I now were raised around rednecks and Christians so they do not have the, what I would call, extreme view of conservatives. So even though they may believe in abortion or are atheist they respect the other side because they know it too. They also know the benefits of the other point of view.

For instance ... we just went on a cruise with a gay friend of my wife's ... an old classmate. He is a businessman who lives in downtown Chicago and is basically married to another dude. Very urban, uptown professional gay guy. He in no way is ever going to vote Republican but yet he easily hangs out with many of us. Why? His family is country Christians and although he went through a rough patch with his father once he came out ... they now have a great relationship. He's seen and knows both sides. I think too many times people want to label people, like his father, a homophobe when in reality they just haven't had to deal with the situation enough to understand it.

What's an extreme liberal tho?

And I don't generally mix up politics and personality. My next door neighbor is a maga hat wearing christian and I have a fine relationship with him and his wife. They're otherwise good people.  I don't assume that Trumpers or christians are inherently bad people. It's the equivalent of the evangelical "love the sinner, hate the sin" concept. I hate their beliefs but I don't hate them as people, I just think they're wrong.

Picture examples
Gay person liberal - (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTUxNjQ4MjU5Ml5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwMTY5NzAzNw@@._V1_UY209_CR10,0,140,209_AL_.jpg)

Extreme gay person liberal - (https://i.pinimg.com/236x/6f/4e/63/6f4e634b38669d92b456f59c2aec744f--male-outfits-prom-outfits.jpg)


As far as generality goes I'd say anyone that feel they need to show you their opinion whenever they can. I don't need my kids to know dildo man's sexual choices any more than I need them to know which heteros like anal sex.  No one needs to know other's sexual choices. there are many others to ... like women who brag about abortions, people who think all Christians are homophobes, or that white men are racist etc. The people that pretend "stereotypes" define a conservative group are probably the same ones I would consider extreme.

Just to clarify so I understand. So an extremely small number of actual people are extreme liberals and it has more to do with how they present themselves and not the "extreme" of their opinions on policies?

*Bump

No particular reason for the bump, just hated to see it fall so far down the list.

John Bolton says he'll talk if he's subpoenaed. Oh, the juicy details there.  ;D

It is pointless.  The senate is not going to remove him despite the clear and obvious abuses. 

Focus should be on removing him and his enablers in Nov.

Not gonna happen. Trump and his fellow Republicans will win big. Just like what Trump did in blowing up Mr Isis ... when the Huffington Post starts posting their own polls and it shows Trump on the favorable side you know that it's even much worse. They are so liberal they can sometimes make CNN look moderate.

Typically that goes hand in hand doesn't it? I'd wager most dildo wearing gays, trans or whatevers most likely are ok with full term abortions and even after birth abortions while conservatively dressed lesbians who go to church are more likely to not be as accepting. 

It's pointless.  The senate is not going to remove him because there is no substance from the TDS Democrats.

Focus should be on getting cameras ready for people on the left's heads to explode when he's elected again.

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2a/e9/40/2ae940053b97424fc033a426341822e7.gif)

I agree that he won't be removed.  But I think it's important to still exercise the process.

I also think it's very possible that he gets elected again.

You might want to inform Pelosi of the next step in the process. Otherwise she's wasting everyone's time and tax dollars.

I'm still failing to understand the point of the process unless the end result is removal. 

It requires republican house and senate members to go on formal record that they are willing to accept Trump’s abuse of power and declare “party before country”

Except the only ones who believe he abused his powers are, again, the left.  So we are back to square one.  No removal from office and a high probability of re-election.  I'm failing, again, to see the point other than grandstanding to your own base who already does not need enforcement of their views on the man.

If that was the case then the articles would have been sent over immediately after they were voted on. The problem is that the House majority thinks that they can run the Senate. To the contrary, the Senate has the sole power to conduct impeachment trials. If they don't do their jobs, the sole remedy is to vote out the current senators and replace them with new ones. The idea that Pelosi and the House have any say over the impeachment trial is pure non sense. The longer she holds on to the articles, the worse it's going to be on the Democrats.

Most people I know, even people that hate Trump, don't even give a shit anymore because it's dragging on so long. What  Pelosi is doing is the equivalent of a coach who is down by 21 with 1:30 left in the game using all his timeouts like it's going to help win. 

All you have to do is be a student of history (or old enough to remember) and look at the Bill Clinton impeachment of 1998-1999.   Exact same situation but with the parties switched.  Clinton was impeached in the House with voting pretty much strictly along party lines.  It eventually went to the Senate where again the voting was pretty much along party lines and Clinton was not removed from office.  Exact same situation.  None of this is about anyone from either party thinking that he is going to be removed from office nor is it anything about members of Congress trying to "do what is right" for America.  It is simply an opportunity for each party to cater to their respective constituents in order to appease them and secure enough votes in their districts to get them re-elected.  As usual, Congress cares about one thing.  Getting re-elected.  And this goes for both parties.  They are all just different sides of the same slimy coin.  The longer it gets dragged out, the more the Democrats can crow to their constituents about how they are "going after that rat bastard Trump" and the more the Republicans can crow to their constituents about their feigned indignation at the Democrats trying to impeach the president "for no good reason".    Nothing to see here, move along.  Just the usual political posturing and pandering to keep themselves re-elected by appeasing their voting bases.  Seen this movie too many times to be surprised by the ending. 

If there is evidence (and I believe that there is) to take a case to trial, you take it.  It's the role of the branches of government to attempt to hold the other branches accountable.  It's important to get all that stuff on the record.  The House needs to do its job, the Senate has their role, etc.  You let it play out.

This isn't about Trump.  This is about a long-standing political system of checks and balances.  You do your work and get it on the record for history to judge.

I realize you believe there is evidence ... and I don't blame you based on the liberal media ... but the truth is Pelosi and others do not and is why they want to introduce more evidence. They need to submit their case and be done with it. Even many other Democrats are not supporting her in how she is handling this.

They're not supporting her because it's a sham. That's why she hasn't sent the articles to the Senate. Until there is a trial in the Senate, there is no impeachment. It doesn't exist.

Even Feinstein called out Pelosi on her bullshit claim that the impeachment was urgent and needed to be done quickly. Feinstein said, "If it’s serious and urgent, send them over. If it isn’t, don’t send it over." So I guess it isn't urgent and Pelosi way lying. The House Democrats are running a shit show circus and it's only helping Trump. You can't write this shit...

I completely agree but I also watched liberal media yesterday and its funny how quiet stories like this are.  At one point on FOX I saw interviews or quotes from at least 8 or 9 Democrats who have criticized her for not sending the articles of impeachment.

Funny side note ... I read yesterday that she actually got the idea from CNN about not sending them. You know ...  the newscast that claims Trump makes his decisions based off FOX News. Like you said .. You can't write this shit...