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TDMMC Forums => Other Sports Talk => Topic started by: ArtieChokePhin on March 31, 2021, 09:01:16 pm



Title: Running up the score
Post by: ArtieChokePhin on March 31, 2021, 09:01:16 pm
My wife and I got the Disney Plus bundle for our family and it's turning out to be a great bargain.  Not only is there so much on Disney Plus, but also Hulu and ESPN Plus are included.  Turns out all the ESPN 30 for 30s are on Hulu.   I watched The U last night, which is a documentary about the Miami Hurricanes of the 80s and early 90s. 

Something caught my eye and made me wonder.  Jimmy Johnson got lambasted in the media for running up the score against Notre Dame in 1985.  He defended his actions stating that he never deviates from his game plan, but that once he got a comfortable lead, he puts in his second and third stringers.  I've noticed that other coaches like Bobby Bowden, Tom Osborne, and Vince Dooley would do the same thing.  On the other hand, coaches like Steve Spurrier, Barry Switzer, and LaVell Edwards would run up the score as well but leave their first teamers in the entire time. 

So the question is, is there a respectable way to run up the score, or is it just not a good thing to do at all?  Any thoughts on this?


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Phishfan on March 31, 2021, 10:50:51 pm
I had a soccer team that would beat a couple teams so bad we would eventually take the bench players off the field and start mixing starters back in but out of position. It is the other team's responsibility to stop you from scoring.


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: ArtieChokePhin on March 31, 2021, 11:12:36 pm
I had a soccer team that would beat a couple teams so bad we would eventually take the bench players off the field and start mixing starters back in but out of position. It is the other team's responsibility to stop you from scoring.

I agree with this, just like I agreed with Jimmy Johnson's statement, "I can't defend the other team playing poorly"


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Dolphster on April 01, 2021, 07:18:42 am
I don't like keeping the starters in when you are crushing the other team.  Mostly because you don't want a starter getting hurt in a game in which you are clearly going to win.  But I'm all for putting in your backups and letting them run the same game plan.  Meaningless snaps don't prepare backups for in case they need to step up and become starters.  Run your game plan and if people want to call it "running up the score" then so be it.  Like coaches and some of you guys have all said, "if you don't like us scoring, play better defense".   


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: MyGodWearsAHoodie on April 01, 2021, 07:40:00 am
At the professional level, I have no problem with running up the score.  “The best way to protect a 21 point lead is with a 28 point lead”

At lower levels, the goal should be a game that is fun and developing for all.

I know one high school coach who regularly takes his team to the state finals in basketball but every year has a couple of games against teams that he absolutely shouldn’t be playing and could easily beat 80-0.

 What he does is require his players to shoot and dribble with their non-dominant hand.

This does several things: it keeps the score closer than it would be otherwise making the game more fun and interesting for both sides (even though the outcome is never in doubt) and his players practice shooting with their non dominant hand, a skill that benefits them later in the season against better teams


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Pappy13 on April 01, 2021, 08:14:10 am
What's more humiliating? Getting beat by a large margin by a team clearly better then you or for that team to stop trying? I contend that it's more humiliating for the team your playing to stop trying. My daughter was once on a very good soccer team and there were a few games in tournaments where the team they were playing against simply was overmatched. Of course we took the starters out and played the bench but that didn't really matter as our bench was still much better then the opponents starters. At that point there's not much you can do, you have to keep playing, can't humiliate the other team by stop trying. One thing that we did do was stop celebrating goals after we had a comfortable lead. It was merely a stoppage of play at that point. Honestly I don't think it's much different to lose 3-0 or 10-0 in soccer.


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Dave Gray on April 01, 2021, 08:23:06 am
I don't really care about running up the score in the pros....but really because all the players on on the same playing-field, so there is parity.

I don't like it in college, because it highlights the problems with the league.  Bobo State shouldn't be in the same league to play Alabama in the first place, so the fact that they can win 70-0 highlights a bigger issue.  Additionally, I dislike that college football seems to value running up the score in terms of how it ranks teams, which I dislike.  I can't fault coaches that do it, but the whole system is bad.

Playing with your left hand or with handicapping the abilities of your own players isn't my style, but I think that things like, especially at a lower level, like high school, changing your game plan to move at a slower paced designed to run time, taking fewer risks, and playing the 2nd and 3rd team are appropriate.  It's like a retirement fund: when there's a lot of time left, be aggressive, take risks, go bold -- but once you have your money in hand and the end is approaching, invest in slow, boring gold.


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Fau Teixeira on April 01, 2021, 08:58:30 am
what they should do is what UEFA did with the nations league,

they split the teams up into tiers .. you only play against teams in your tiers.. if you're 1st in your tier at the end of a "season" you move up to the next team and the bottom team moves down.

it makes for competitive matches that are good to watch all around.

Germany vs. Spain is great and competitive and exciting .. Lichtenstein vs. Gibraltar is competitive albeit at a lower level of play  .. Germany vs. Gibraltar is a joke that nobody wants to watch other than Germany fans and even then they're bored half the time after being up 12-0


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Dolphster on April 01, 2021, 12:08:49 pm


I know one high school coach who regularly takes his team to the state finals in basketball but every year has a couple of games against teams that he absolutely shouldn’t be playing and could easily beat 80-0.

 What he does is require his players to shoot and dribble with their non-dominant hand.

This does several things: it keeps the score closer than it would be otherwise making the game more fun and interesting for both sides (even though the outcome is never in doubt) and his players practice shooting with their non dominant hand, a skill that benefits them later in the season against better teams

I actually like that idea.  But I wonder if other teams ever think that playing with your non-dominant hand is another form of showing them up?  Not saying that they do.  I'd just be curious as to how I would take that if I was the opponent. 


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Dolphster on April 01, 2021, 12:13:33 pm


I don't like it in college, because it highlights the problems with the league.  Bobo State shouldn't be in the same league to play Alabama in the first place, so the fact that they can win 70-0 highlights a bigger issue.  Additionally, I dislike that college football seems to value running up the score in terms of how it ranks teams, which I dislike.  I can't fault coaches that do it, but the whole system is bad.


You sort of touched on a separate point that has always been a pet peeve of mine.  With the expansion of divisions, and the playoff system now,  it isn't as bad as it used to be.  But I remember when I was a kid, The Big 10 was Michigan, Ohio State, and 8 sorry teams.  So Michigan and Ohio State would play each other, beat up on the other Big 10 teams and then schedule a couple of terrible, weak, girl schools and beat them 72-0.  The entire Big 10 came down to the annual Michigan vs. Ohio State game every single  year.  Teams would be in the national title hunt because they played some version of Sister Mary's School For The Blind every game. 


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: ArtieChokePhin on April 01, 2021, 12:41:56 pm
You sort of touched on a separate point that has always been a pet peeve of mine.  With the expansion of divisions, and the playoff system now,  it isn't as bad as it used to be.  But I remember when I was a kid, The Big 10 was Michigan, Ohio State, and 8 sorry teams.  So Michigan and Ohio State would play each other, beat up on the other Big 10 teams and then schedule a couple of terrible, weak, girl schools and beat them 72-0.  The entire Big 10 came down to the annual Michigan vs. Ohio State game every single  year.  Teams would be in the national title hunt because they played some version of Sister Mary's School For The Blind every game. 

I remember the Big East used to be Miami and the little sisters of the poor.  Same for the ACC with Florida State.  Both schools scheduled each other as well as strong non conference opponents. 

In 1988, Miami had Michigan, Notre Dame, Florida State, Arkansas, LSU and Wisconsin on it's schedule.  You can't get any tougher than that.


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: MyGodWearsAHoodie on April 01, 2021, 02:29:15 pm
I actually like that idea.  But I wonder if other teams ever think that playing with your non-dominant hand is another form of showing them up?  Not saying that they do.  I'd just be curious as to how I would take that if I was the opponent. 

He said he had only one opposing coach who saw it that way.  But most teams knew they were going to lose as soon as the schedule was printed and saw it as making the game at least kinda fun, (the opposing team had a shot at actually stealing the ball from someone dribbling lefty so while the game was futile, individual plays were not.  And with some kids this might be the first time time they successfully stole the ball from the other team.  Resulting in cheers and celebration.  One team he played every year that never won any of their games, their closest and most fun game of the season was this game.) Keep in mind he is only doing this against really bad teams there is no way around some form of the weaker team being “shown up”

Most parents have probably done something similar with their kids.  My nephew didn’t find it insulting when I use to play knock hockey, air hockey, or darts lefty, giving him a chance to win, until he got good enough to beat me with me playing righty. 


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Dolphster on April 01, 2021, 02:47:32 pm
He said he had only one opposing coach who saw it that way.  But most teams knew they were going to lose as soon as the schedule was printed and saw it as making the game at least kinda fun, (the opposing team had a shot at actually stealing the ball from someone dribbling lefty so while the game was futile, individual plays were not.  And with some kids this might be the first time time they successfully stole the ball from the other team.  Resulting in cheers and celebration.  One team he played every year that never won any of their games, their closest and most fun game of the season was this game.) Keep in mind he is only doing this against really bad teams there is no way around some form of the weaker team being “shown up”

Most parents have probably done something similar with their kids.  My nephew didn’t find it insulting when I use to play knock hockey, air hockey, or darts lefty, giving him a chance to win, until he got good enough to beat me with me playing righty. 

Yeah, I definitely get that.  And I don't disagree with you.  Although I have played a lot of sports, I was never on a REALLY horrible team, so I don't have personal experience in the scenario.  For younger kids I definitely agree with what you did with your nephew by playing lefty.  I was more thinking about at the high school level.  Maybe most high school kids would prefer what you are saying too.  I suppose it comes down to individuals.  For me personally, I think I would almost rather get stomped and use that as motivation to work harder to get better.  But I was always a hard head like that.  LOL    I was a better baseball player than football player, but on the football team we were very lucky to have a QB who went on to start at Florida State and then had a long career in the Canadian Football League.  If not for him putting up a lot of points for us, we would have been blown out of a lot of games.


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Dave Gray on April 01, 2021, 03:34:06 pm
what they should do is what UEFA did with the nations league,

they split the teams up into tiers .. you only play against teams in your tiers.. if you're 1st in your tier at the end of a "season" you move up to the next team and the bottom team moves down.

it makes for competitive matches that are good to watch all around.

Germany vs. Spain is great and competitive and exciting .. Lichtenstein vs. Gibraltar is competitive albeit at a lower level of play  .. Germany vs. Gibraltar is a joke that nobody wants to watch other than Germany fans and even then they're bored half the time after being up 12-0

I would love this, but there's a bigger financial palm-greasing that needs to take place.  I feel that college football is sketchy and likely crooked.  FAU lines up to play big schools, because those schools need a win, and FAU needs the money.  So they essentially pay to go get their ass kicked.  It's just a bad model.  I get why everyone does it because it helps make money for both sides, but it just doesn't feel right.


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: MyGodWearsAHoodie on April 01, 2021, 04:33:31 pm
Yeah, I definitely get that.  And I don't disagree with you.  Although I have played a lot of sports, I was never on a REALLY horrible team, so I don't have personal experience in the scenario.  For younger kids I definitely agree with what you did with your nephew by playing lefty.  I was more thinking about at the high school level.  Maybe most high school kids would prefer what you are saying too.  I suppose it comes down to individuals.  For me personally, I think I would almost rather get stomped and use that as motivation to work harder to get better.  But I was always a hard head like that.  LOL    I was a better baseball player than football player, but on the football team we were very lucky to have a QB who went on to start at Florida State and then had a long career in the Canadian Football League.  If not for him putting up a lot of points for us, we would have been blown out of a lot of games.

I imagine some high school students would be offended.  I think the biggest factor is the attitude and behavior of the dominant team. He didn’t allow trash talking or belittling of opposing players.  I imagine if the kids were taunting saying things like “we can beat you even with one hand” it would be offensive.  But rather his players knew that it was stupid that a school with over 2000 students was matched up a school of less than 100 and treated the opposing team with respect.  As he would tell his kids pre-game, “it takes character and courage to step out on the court every game knowing you have almost no chance of winning.  Stepping out on the court knowing you will win is easy.  Treat them with the respect they deserve”


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Dolphster on April 01, 2021, 08:43:50 pm
I imagine some high school students would be offended.  I think the biggest factor is the attitude and behavior of the dominant team. He didn’t allow trash talking or belittling of opposing players.  I imagine if the kids were taunting saying things like “we can beat you even with one hand” it would be offensive.  But rather his players knew that it was stupid that a school with over 2000 students was matched up a school of less than 100 and treated the opposing team with respect.  As he would tell his kids pre-game, “it takes character and courage to step out on the court every game knowing you have almost no chance of winning.  Stepping out on the court knowing you will win is easy.  Treat them with the respect they deserve”

Agreed. 


Title: Re: Running up the score
Post by: Downunder Dolphan on April 08, 2021, 06:25:07 am
Unless it's the most social of (even amateur) games, here in Australia running up the score is seen as normal - as a result of a tie at the end of the season, usually the first key tiebreaker to whether you make the finals/playoffs or any home field advantage is score percentage.

So running up a score here is not usually seen as personal, just smart... although sometimes I admit, it is mainly personal.  ;) ;D