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https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jon-gruden-resigning-as-raiders-coach-after-more-leaked-emails-reveal-homophobic-language-per-report/

Only took a few weeks for the Raiders to totally implode after they beat us.


<Edited by Dave: Title correction to fix spelling of name>

Now this I have an issue with.   They're stringing him up for stuff he did a decade ago, long before he was the Raiders coach.

I believe in redemption.  I believe in making mistakes and then having support to atone for those mistakes.  I don't like the idea of throwing people away who have the ability to change and be better for it.

But...

It can't happen here.  It can't happen here, because Gruden is a leader and in the spotlight.  There is no way he can successfully coach a team and get guys to buy in after this.  ...maybe he can go away, regroup, and return, but as is -- he has openly gay on his roster, it's a league that's 20% black, there are now women officials.  Several former players were crying on ESPN the other day, they were so hurt to find this out.  It would constantly be a black cloud over him for everything.  It'll make it harder in free-agency.

And on top of all of that...

The NFL has had a really shit record on this kind of stuff and are trying to repair their image.

Accountability exists and it matters.  So, I'm for that.  But even more important than that, this is capitalism and if you did things (even long ago) that greatly damage your brand, it doesn't matter about cancel culture or any of that, you gotta go.  It will cost your organization a ton of money and goodwill.  You will lose some current fans, you will lose a lot of potential fans, you will lose free agents, you will lose ad revenue, you will likely lose the spirit of some players already in your locker room.

If this were an isolated incident, I think you survive this, but this points to a larger trend of a problematic man.  And it's a problem in an area where the NFL has a history of being a problem.  There is nobody cancelling Jon Gruden.  There is no other way this can play out.

When will people learn to stop saying terrible shit/committing crimes in an email? Texting too. Just keep your offensive words and or crimes to whispers in public.

Amateurs.

There is a lot of truth to this.  Any kind of internal dirt (we all have it.)  ...shit-talking annoying clients, criticizing management, whatever.  In those moments, just don't immortalize it in public emails.  We all get heated and say shit we probably shouldn't.

Attitudes like this don't change much in my humble opinion. He may have softened a bit over time, but those ideas are still in there somewhere. Just because they don't have more recent e-mails as proof doesn't mean they aren't. Maybe he just got smarter and keeps them to himself but doesn't absolve him of what he said/did.

I believe people can change -- but he's not handled or dealt with this yet.   So, there's no indication that he changed -- why would he?  This kind of thinking has made him one of the most powerful men in the world.  Until he falls and has to answer to his peers and see how he's hurt people, there is no redemption.

One more thing: Yes, 10 years ago is a long time.  But it ain't that long when you're 58.  This was a 48 year old man with plenty of life experience that made those comments on a regular basis.

It's rare especially for attitudes like this. Like you said will probably take a life changing moment...perhaps this will be his, if so maybe it's a good thing.

If everyone's personal conversations were leaked nobody would have a job. We're all guilty of saying fucked up things at one point or another.   I've done it quite a few times.

There's no going away, regrouping and coming back from something like this in today's day and age.  Gruden literally just lost his entire coaching and football related career for the rest of his life over an email.

YIKES!!!!

Wonder how many fans up in Jacksonville are searching through old Urban Meyers' emails right about now...

 :-X

Believe it or not, I think the stuff about him being against female referees is the most telling.  This is a guy who thinks that a particular job is only to be done by men and he shared that idea with other people.  That is some 1950s shit that runs pretty deep.

In a vacuum, you can probably excuse any one thing away, but this is a pattern of behavior and a long-held belief system.

Anyone have a copy of the emails or exactly what he said? I know about the big lips one which is inexcusable but didn't see details of the rest.

^ I haven't heard the specific phrases, but it was the big lips thing, disparaging the openly gay player that got drafted, and comments about women shouldn't be refs when they hired their first woman.

And then comments about the leadership as well, which doesn't play well when it goes public.

Not everyone.  Back in the early 90s, during new hire orientation the HR manager advised us not to put anything in an email you would not want forwarded to the entire company.  I have followed that advice.  I have made comments orally that if recorded could have gotten me in trouble, but my written communication is perfectly clean.  You would be wise to adopt a similar approach.

Keep in mind this wasn't an email between friends on a private email account, these were on a work owned email account.

My opinions on homosexuality have certainly changed over time.  Thirty years ago I opposed homosexual marriage and viewed homosexuality as a mental disorder.  I now view homosexuality as an equal but just as valid personal choice.  And there was no profound event, just a slow realization that my earlier opinion was wrong. A person who hold all the same views at 50 as he held at 20 has wasted 30 years.

That's what I said.   I've said some fucked up shit when I was younger but I would never put it in an email or on social media. 


Some of us might be wise to go through Flores and Grier's emails  ;D

A 20 year old mind isn't the same as a 55 year old mind.

I'm all for change and it's great that you've come around and grown.  I agree with all of that.  And it's not just the view you hold, but it's how you exhibit that view.  If you ridicule and harm others, that matters.

If Gruden was just privately against gay marriage, nobody would give a crap.  This was ridiculing from a position of power.

Another interesting thing is his contract. There is no way he is walking away from $60 Million by resigning, so he probably worked out a buyout with the Raiders under the premise that he was going to be fired for this anyway and that would lead to a long legal battle. I wonder if this ever comes to light.

It's one thing to view homosexuality as a mental disorder, it's something else completely to make a homophobic slur about someone you don't like. Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

I would also like to point out that I haven't actually seen the e-mails that Gruden has sent only read what others have said the e-mails contained so I may be uninformed on what was actually said and about whom. I may be mischaracterizing what he said.

I'd also like to point out that Gruden was nearing 50 when these e-mails were sent, I doubt his thinking has changed much in the last 10 years.

Just to clarify, homosexuality as a personal choice is not how that works. It's a choice in the same way that some people prefer Chocolate and others prefer Vanilla. There's a combination of genetic factors and environmental pressures that allow for people to develop preferences over the formative period in their lives. That's why it's called a sexual preference and not a sexual choice. For people it isn't a choice just like you can't force someone to like or dislike a specific food. You can choose to taste or not taste but you can't choose to like or not like.

I think the gay emails were from only 3 years ago (but I may be corrected on this).  This is pattern behavior.  Not isolated.

I don't really care either way. Never really liked Gruden but his personal views are his business. Not sure why it's such a big deal, he resigned so it's all a moot point. I'd be interested to see the actual emails.

Many of the comments I made about homosexuals 30 years ago I now consider inappropriate slurs now.  None of them in emails, however.  Many of the jokes I made 20 years ago were without question Islamicphobic.   

Exactly.  It has become pretty common now for the news to be full of people throwing their careers by putting stupid things in email/text/social media, etc.  You would think that people would have learned by now from seeing what happens to others.   We are all guilty of at one time or another having thoughts that would get us in trouble.  And I don't mean trouble in the form of pissing people off.  But trouble in the form of losing your job.  However, it is one thing to have those thoughts in your head as opposed to memorializing them in formats that will follow you for the rest of your life.   

What is even more amazing is what was captured on audio of a person bragging about committing sexual assault was not prohibitive for being prez.

LOL ... Poor guy. Trump is still living rent free in your head.

At first I was thinking this was much to do about nothing but the more that comes out it really does paint him in a pretty bad light. I don't think it's as big as deal as those like Randy Moss literally crying about it on tv but he did need to step down or be released. Hard to lead when you've pretty much upset everyone.

Yeah, grown men crying over words is ridiculous but I understand Gruden stepping down or being fired. It's just different when you're in a position of leadership as opposed to being a player. I am still very interested in his contract situation though, no way he walked away from $60 Million to "not be a distraction". Even Davis saying "resign or we'll fire you" would've been met with a "Fuck you, pay me" from Jon so something had to have been worked out. Or, he had some REALLY horrible stuff come to light and they are holding it back if he steps down.

This is what I'm wondering. If this is true it will come to light. Few secrets stay secret in the public eye.

This sentence pretty much sums up everything and closes the case.

Looks like some really horrible stuff is about to come to light but not necessarily involving Gruden.  There was a huge investigation in regards to a toxic and abusive work environment for Washington and some of the leaked emails were from Gruden.  Now there will be a legal battle to leak the rest of them and who knows what will turn up.  All I can say is strap on your seat belts because it's gonna be a bumpy ride

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32389529/nflpa-petition-nfl-release-all-emails-washington-football-team-investigation

The NFL finds itself in a difficult situation with the way society is now.   Playing professional football is probably the most high testosterone career in the world (or close to it).  It is male dominated even though a few women have broken into management/officiating/lower level coaching positions.  If we are going to be honest, we aren't dealing with the most intellectually evolved people in the world when talking about the average player/coach in the NFL.  Mysogyny, homophobia, racism are probably more rampant in football than most other careers for the reasons I mentioned above.  Cultural change takes time.  It has taken general society a long time to make strides against mysogyny, homophobia, racism, etc.  Because football is such a testosterone fueled subset of society, the NFL is lagging even further behind the rest of society. 

Wouldn't be surprised if that Washington investigation ended up with Dan Snyder getting the Donald Sterling treatment.
That dude is a scumbag among scumbags.

Indeed.  Washington has been a dirty franchise for a long time and I'm surprised the ax hasn't fallen on Snyder long before this.  Truth be told, with most owners being pretty old and not necessarily as savvy regarding the permanent aspect of anything they put into emails, etc., I bet the majority of those guys probably have a lot of stuff that would be pretty abhorrent by today's standards.  The only defense that I would offer up is if the emails (or whatever) are like 20+ years old, I would hope that it is taken into consideration that the social climate at the time was very different then than it is today.  A lot of things that are absolutely off limits today were commonplace years ago.  Not really an apples to apples comparison, but I was watching an old news documentary with a young buddy of mine recently and he was appalled that people were smoking in business offices in the 1970's.   But is was so commonplace back then that if someone objected to it, THEY would be the weird one, not the person smoking at their desk. 

They've been trying for years, but have been unsuccesful. Snyder is not the type of guy to walk away quietly and as a member of the exclusive owners club, he probably has some dirt on the other guys and will take them down with him. So, I don't think removing him will be popular with the other owners and they are the ones who determine who the commish is.

Yeah, the Snyder part of this might have legs (https://defector.com/jon-grudens-resignation-is-not-accountability/).  From the NYT:

"For the photo shoot, at the adults-only Occidental Grand Papagayo resort on Culebra Bay, some of the cheerleaders said they were required to be topless, though the photographs used for the calendar would not show nudity. Others wore nothing but body paint. Given the resort's secluded setting, such revealing poses would not have been a concern for the women - except that the Redskins had invited spectators.

A contingent of sponsors and FedExField suite holders - all men - were granted up-close access to the photo shoots."

And from WaPo:

In "Beauties on the Beach," the official video chronicling the making of the Washington NFL team's 2008 cheerleader swimsuit calendar, the women frolic in the sand, rave about their custom bikinis and praise a photographer for putting them at ease in settings where sometimes only a strategically placed prop or tightly framed shot shielded otherwise bare breasts.

What the cheerleaders didn't know was that another video, intended strictly for private use, would be produced using footage from that same shoot. Set to classic rock, the 10-minute unofficial video featured moments when nipples were inadvertently exposed as the women shifted positions or adjusted props.

The lewd outtakes were what Larry Michael, then the team's lead broadcaster and a senior vice president, referred to as "the good bits" or "the good parts," according to Brad Baker, a former member of Michael's staff. Baker said in an interview that he was present when Michael told staffers to make the video for team owner Daniel Snyder."

---

Management requiring cheerleaders to participate topless in a calendar shoot and then trading skeevy undercover pics and video among themselves is... a problem.

Holy shit, that is not good. Putting on my amateur lawyer hat for a second, the cheerleader contracts would have to be analyzed to see if they consented to this in the fine print. In terms of morality, absolute scumbags and losers. A bunch of billionaires and millionaires can't see breasts without tricking innocent women? Human garbage. I would 100% support them being removed even if they pulled some legal trickery where this was legal.

How did they even find this video?

How do I get on the "Good Bits" list?

...asking for myself.

You start off by not playing for the team, certainly no good bits there.

Word is that Congress is going to get involved and all the emails will be leaked and that Gruden's emails were just the "tip of the iceberg" according to one long time Senator.

"Uh oh, we might leak some emails and investigate. Better donate to our campaigns so we forget."

Tip of the iceberg? As in let's shoehorn our way into private conversations? How is anything that 2 people discuss in a private conversation relevant to Congress in any way? 

If, as mentioned earlier, the WFT management was requiring employees to pose topless for a calendar shoot while secretly recording and trading behind-the-scenes footage, it is very much relevant to Congress in their function as lawmakers; e.g. whether they should create a law to prevent (or at least discourage) such an event from happening again.

And how does that have anything to do with Gruden? Whoever is leaking this stuff needs to be found, fired, and sued.

Gruden's e-mails were between him and the WFT GM.

While Gruden's own comments - as, at the time, a color commentator for ESPN - were relevant to his choice to resign, I think Congress would be more interested in the e-mails from the perspective of the WFT management and how they were directing their employees.

Goodell had the emails leaked because he doesn't like Gruden, and he hates the Raiders.

If Gruden can prove the leaks were intentional, he may have grounds for this suit. If the NFL was running the investigation and discovered Gruden's emails, then the NFL is responsible for keeping them secure since they have nothing to do with the actual investigation. I mean after all these years how could it not be intentional. Whether it was the NFL or a rogue employee, the NFL is responsible either way. They need to be held accountable. Goodell needs to go, Gruden was right, he is a pussy...

Jon Gruden just filed suit for this exact thing against the NFL and Roger Goodell. I always say I have a Twitter law degree but if the NFL and Roger have to turn over all communications and this turns out to be true, Roger is done and Gruden is going to get 10x what he lost.

The skeptic in me makes me think they will settle out of court because if this is true, it can't come to light and neither can any of those other 650,000 emails. I'm sure those are damaging to many people and the Owners will force the league's hand.

^^^ Funny that none of the other 650,000 emails were made public, and the NFL quickly closed the case against Washington.  Gruden's lawyers have a good case to get the NFL to turn over the rest of the 650,000 emails to show the NFL DID seek to publicly embarrass him and get him fired, or forced to quit.  So you're probably right, the NFL will settle out of court about 5 years from now.

Kind of makes you think that Goodell never was investigating Washington at all. Maybe it was all because he didn't like being rightfully called a "pussy" by Gruden and needed a plausible reason to leak the emails. Maybe, Gruden's emails were the only emails they ever had possession of. Maybe those other 650,000 emails don't even exist in the context they portray. But then again, I don't like all that conspiracy theory shit. Interesting to see how it plays out.

Fuck the owners.  A court may force the league's hand.   Sources close to the situation say that the emails contain evidence 100 times worse than what Gruden said.  Gruden went after Goodell, and now Goodell has organized a witch hunt. 

Pretty ballsy move by Gruden to go on the offensive considering the kind of stuff that was in his emails.  I would have thought he would go into silent mode and let the dust setttle for quite a while after all that came out.

I agree.

I know Gruden has his supporters, but this makes him look worse, in my opinion.  Instead of showing remorse, he's putting the blame on outing those that exposed his behavior.

This is about money, very likely. He had a very long term and lucrative contract and by resigning, he probably forfeited that. Very likely, he did so knowing this step would be next. I'm sure Gruden will sound like Mother Teresa compared to what else is on those emails. Goodell is going to regret this.

Why would discovery compel disclosure of any emails unrelated to Gruden and his specific claims?

I agree with you in theory, but I don't see why Gruden would voluntarily resign or why he would file suit if there was no plan to expose those emails. I'm kinda playing the man and not the hand on this one.

Because Gruden wasn't being investigated and only his emails were leaked. Leaks by nature are intentional and whether it was the NFL, Goodell, or a rogue employee, the NFL is responsible either way. It won't matter much though, I'm sure it will be settled well before Gruden's lawyer ever sniffs the inside a courtroom.

I don't understand how one can sue for being "forced" to resign.
If Gruden thought he had a case, he should have made Mark Davis fire him.

Just because Gruden's e-mails were leaked doesn't mean the NFL was responsible for the leak. Could have just as well been someone from the Washington football team that leaked the e-mails which would explain why only Gruden's e-mails were leaked.

Regardless of who leaked the emails, what is the cause of action?  He made racist comments.  Someone revealed he made racist comments. 

Unless there was a protective order on the confidentiality of discovery absolutely nothing improper occurred.  . 

Congress voted to have all of the emails and other documents released. Dan Snyder was trying to fight this and I'm sure Goodell was happy to have it go away but that isn't going to happen now unless the NFL wants to sue and risk their cushy standing.

Get your splatter protective gear on.   The shit is about to hit the fan.

It may not be Earth shattering because it's hard to believe lots of owners would say something really damaging in an email. That being said, I'm sure you will find some organizations that might have to fire some people and maybe even some collusion will be shown in terms of free agents.

Player contracts are not the most potentially radioactive content in these e-mails.  Not by a long shot.

If it turns out that WFT management was secretly trading nude videos of female employees taken at an official job function in which they were required to participate topless, that is definitely enough to spell the end of Dan Snyder as an owner.  No doubt about it.

And if Goodell was involved somehow.....

Yeah, that would be it for him and a huge payday for the women. If King Roger was involved in covering that up, he would be done for too. Not sure of the criminality aspect of it,even if they were able to be charged, probably just looking at fines and settlements out of court.

It looks like Goodell was involved the way Gruden was talking about it in his emails.   That may be why things went down the way they did.

It was dumb of them to shake the hornet's nest with this and dump Gruden, probably all because he called Roger a pussy. King Lear may go down for this.

Goodell is a spineless flunkie.  He does only and exactly what his paymasters, the owners, tell him to do at any point.  Consequently, he is at zero risk from this investigation.