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Florida was apparently overwhelmed by Covid Cases, yet DeSantis is on track to win by a landslide.  (50-40).

If the Republicans win control of Congress, does that prove that pandemic was a hoax?  Does it prove the vaccines were more deadly than the virus?

If Desantis wins, does that mean all the stories of Covid in Florida were greatly exaggerated?

If DeSantis wins, does that mean the moon is made of green cheese?

There is no connection between that.

There is a connection between Covid and Desantis winning.

Not sure what you mean by overwhelmed but I live here and have never had a work stoppage for Covid. There are so many stats out there it's easy to pick and choose to support any argument but the state didn't do worse than many states who locked down. In fact the death rates are on par with New York and Pennsylvania although they had some of the strictist lockdowns. Florida is also a retirement state where we have more senior citizens than any other.  I just saw an article that wasn't political showing that Florida's 4th graders are 4th in testing. This is largely do to Florida kids returning to school before others. We were pretty much free to conduct business as much as possible and have thrived.

In general, the majority of people in Florida love that DeSantis refuses to follow Washington's BS and has allowed us to remain free and to make our own choices about things like Covid. It's also why so many people have moved here and to Texas while California and New York have lost the most residents.  

No, Florida is a red state.  We elect republicans.

I thought they were a swing state.

Florida led the nation in Covid fatalities this summer.

So, is the pandemic a sham or not?

No, not a sham.  Pandemic is real.  Lots of people died.  It could've been handled better.  Lots of places made lots of mistakes in all kinds of ways.

But that issue is way far down on people's lists of concerns right now.

Florida's approach was not to worry about it.  Could that have been the right approach all along?

It wasn't don't worry about it. Everyone worries about it. Florida's mentaility was personal repsonsiblity. If you feel you need to protect yourself or your family then do it. There's no logical reason to cripple everyone else when in reality only a small percentage of people are actually in danger.

When Biden defeated Trump in Georgia and Arizona during the 2020 election, did that prove that Trump blackmailed Ukraine and should have been removed from office?
When Bush won re-election in 2004, did that prove Iraq had weapons of mass destruction?

Voters do not prove or disprove reality when they cast ballots.

None of what you said is connected. Did you use to walk to school or pack your lunch?

They were but like Iowa, it's been going redder over the years. DeSantis should win by at least 10, although some of that can be chalked up to Crist being a professional election loser whose running mate is the most hated person in Florida.

The population of Florida hasn’t gotten more conservative, but the Florida GOP has successfully enacted more and more voter suppression methods to disenfranchise poor and minority voters.

I don't know.  There seems to be a conservative trend here.  We have a shift in South Florida with a strong Cuban population that reliably are voting Republican.

I mean...it's been close by overall numbers statewide, but we don't elect Democrats.  It comes close and you have to spend a lot of money to compete here.

We haven't had a Democrat in our governor's mansion since 1998.
For President, it's always within a few percentage points, but it seems to be breaking more Republican since 2016.

For Senate, there are 2 Republicans now.  There likely will be two Republicans again.  We haven't had 2 Democrats since 1998 and even then, it was for a very short amount of time before Bob Graham retired.  We haven't had a Democrat at all in the senate for 10 years.

Republicans hold a 76 to 42 majority in the House here.  It's been a GOP majority since 1996.

There was a big political shift after 1994 and ever since then, everything has broken towards the Republicans except for a few squeaker statewide elections for President.

Lots of people migrating there from blue states. Basically, Republican voters who don't want to live there anymore so of course they're bringing their Republican votes with them. I know of several old co-workers here in NY who moved down there, it's more common for the NYC folk to bail.

Downside for you guys is that your housing market got very expensive.

Yeah, and that might have something to do with it.  In order to move here from somewhere else, you pretty much have to be wealthy.  The people I know (and there are several) that are leaving FL are those that are just able to make their money stretch further in other places.

Just based on raw demographics -- those with cash in hand to buy houses are likelier to vote Republican.

But it isn't just one reason -- old people, wealthy people, Cuban people -- these are demographics that lean Republican and they're big in this state.

Yes, it is connected.

Handling of the pandemic is a political issue, and how a government handles the pandemic affects their voters.

Florida was a huge hotspot.

If the healthcare system was overworked, it could mean that those healthcare workers, the families of the victims, the families of those healthcare workers, and people who were denied access to healthcare would be angry at DeSantis and vote Democrat.

If the vaccines were safe and effective, and most Republican voters did not get them, it could mean that the Republican party lost voters to the virus, which affects the results of the election.

If the Republicans lost more people to the virus, that affects the election.

Since it appears that this is not happening, does that mean it was all a sham?

Dave said that when he went to the hospital awhile ago, it was overrun by Covid patients.

If this is true, wouldn't that make people upset at the government's handling of the pandemic?

First of all, that isn't how voters necessarily think.  For example, they could blame their local elected Democratic officials.

But more to the point:

The facts of the COVID pandemic are not affected one bit by how angry the voters are, nor by whom they choose to blame.

Again, the fact that voters chose to re-elect Bush in 2004 did not "prove" that Iraq had WMDs.

But the NUMBER of VOTERS IS affected by the virus.  The facts of the pandemic DO affect the number of voters.  Surely you must understand this?

Whether or not Iraq had WMDs has nothing to do with the number of voters.

I'm not going to finish reading past just a few words. You asked if the pandemic was a hoax. It was not.  There is a scientific definition of what a pandemic is. Now you switched direction and are talking about the handling of the pandemic which is a political topic. Your first question was stupid.

One of the guys on my projects told me about his uncle who lived in the Bronx. He said his uncle had a 3 bedroom 1100 sq ft house that he's been in this guys whole life ... about 40 years so it was paid off. He said there was nothing nice about it and actually said it was kind of run down. Anyway, the uncle sold it in 2021 for 1.2 million dollars and moved to Florida where he purchased a 325,000 home for cash. That's a great retirement plan if you ask me.

Yeah, no doubt.

My old girlfriend's parents did something similar, all within the state.  They had a small house in Delray and moved up by you in Lake Mary...this was probably 20 years ago now.  But they got a comparable/nicer house for way less money.

Lots of people shifted to the middle of the state, around Port St. Lucie/Vero.  Those build up and it goes to the next area.

What we're dealing with now, around me, just isn't sustainable.  Ain't no houses for 325,000. 

I know. One of my inspectors moved up here from Miami. He and his wife are renting out their 1300 sq ft home for $2,400 while they are renting a 2000 square ft home in Kissimmee for $1,750 a month. they left their families to move up here as a test run and have decided to stay.

It's so crazy although it has slowed down. I lived in an HOA in Lake Mary up until July 2021 and we sold for 366,000 which was the top of the market in our neighborhood as we had updated everything inside and outside including roof, windows, and paint. That same house today is appraising on Zillow for 465,00 just over a year later. The house I bought, while higher in value, is appraising on Zillow over 150k more than we originally paid.

Do you expect that the total number of Florida voters in 2022 will be more or less than in 2018?  I don't understand what this is supposed to "prove."

Once again: voter preferences do not and cannot "prove" whether COVID was a hoax, or whether the vaccines are "more deadly" than the virus.  This is akin to taking a vote on whether the earth is flat.  Democracy has its limits.

I see a different phenomenon: people want to live in (usually expensive) neighborhoods with well-funded schools when they have kids, but once the kids are gone, it's time to move to a state with low taxes.

It's all self-interest.

Democrats took the virus seriously and followed precautions.

Republicans did not

Therefore, if the virus was deadly, the Republican party should have lost a lot more people, and thus a lot more voters, than the Democratic party.

The results of the midterms should reflect this.

This does not appear to be the case.

Sidebar:  Not to mention that if things were as bad as they said there were in Florida with Covid, DeSantis would not be favored.  Trump lost the election in 2020, mainly because of his perceived mishandling of the pandemic.

Double sidebar:  Does anybody else understand that point I'm trying to make and do you agree or disagree with it?

Your premise is incorrect, for several reasons:

1) Even if COVID had killed zero people, it would be ridiculous to expect literally the same results in 2018 as in 2022.  Voters sometimes change their minds!
2) Even if more Republicans were killed by COVID than Democrats, that loss could be offset by new (younger) Republican voters in FL that didn't die, which is why I asked if you think there will be more voters in 2022 than in 2018.  If you lost 50,000 Republicans to COVID but there are 150,000 more voters in 2022, those new voters matter.
3) Even if we set aside both of the above, it is entirely possible that Floridians can blame COVID deaths on "Democrat mayors" or "Anthony Fauci" and re-elect Republicans anyway!  This should be very easy for you, in particular,  to understand:

If voters like you can question whether the deaths were caused by the virus, or caused by the vaccine, how can we take any lesson at all from the election results?

Are we supposed to be taking a vote on... what the deaths were really caused by?
As I said, it's like voting on the shape of the planet.

Just saw this in a CNN article. The Democrats have gone from having 700,000 more registered voters in 2008 to now being behind by about 300,000. That's a 1 million swing in registered voters.. Somehtin else to note ... the population growth of Florida has also given us another House seat which could end up being Republican as well.


When Barack Obama won Florida in 2008, his historic campaign brought a wave of new Democratic voters. Registered Democrats outnumbered Republicans in Florida by nearly 700,000, their largest advantage since 1990.

That gap has dwindled in the years since. But after the 2020 election, the reversal has accelerated and it has touched nearly every part of the state, from the urban cores and their suburbs, to the rural communities that line the Panhandle and dot Central Florida. Republicans grew their numbers in 52 of the state’s 67 counties since Biden and Trump were on the ballot. Meanwhile, there are fewer registered Democrats in all but one county than there were two years ago — a net loss of 331,000 voters overall.

As of last month, there were 5.3 million registered Republicans and just under 5 million Democrats in Florida, marking the first time in state history that the GOP will carry a voter advantage on Election Day.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/01/politics/florida-midterms-2022/index.html

I can kinda feel the switch.  I moved to a more Cuban focused area and it's much more heavily Republican.

Big question is how much of that "Red wave" is people like me.  My entire life I have voted mostly in Democrat primaries and for Democrats in the general election. In the past two primaries I have voted in Republican primaries to vote for candidates that are not extremists.

I am part of the "new Republicans" that left the Democratic party. I voted straight Democrat in early voting.

It's a very small minority. People didn't move to Florida to turn it into the place they left behind.

I know about two dozen people who have moved to Florida.  Not a single one moved to Florida because they wanted a "Red State"  they moved to Florida because they hate snow.

I think the single biggest reason that people move here is because they want to retire in a climate different from where they spent their life.

And in most of those cases, they supported local programs and schools because they benefitted from them.
Now that their kids are grown and they just wanna live out their days and be left alone, they vote against spending they used to vote for.

That's probably the single biggest factor, historically, for implants.

This is a common saying: "People don't move to [x] to turn it into the place they left."
But it happens all the time!  You can see this in the frequent complaints from conservatives about being Californiafied by new residents.

People regularly move because of work, school, or family obligations.  They move for a promotion, or to be closer to relatives for child care.  That does not mean they necessarily sign on to banning abortion, or removing discussion of slavery from their kids' history books.

And this argument would never, ever fly in reverse.  Imagine if I tried to claim that any conservative in the military who gets assigned to a base in California now must agree with gun control, high income taxes, and gay marriage.  He didn't move to California to turn it into Texas!

It's a silly point.

If that's the case then DeSantis and Rubio are toast and you will be happy. I've met at least two dozen (probably more) and not one has said that. We meet people in restaurants and local stores quite often who have recently moved here. They have no problem telling us how they plan on voting ... LOL . I live in an area that has quite  bit of retirees moving down here as I'm not far from the Villages.

A couple of weeks ago we sold a mattress to a couple from Boston area. I think it was Bridgewater or something like that. They were Patriots and Sox fans so we got to talking about my Dolphin flag. In thie course of the converstion they let me and my wife know they were happy to be here under DeSantis but couldn't stomach our teams ... ahahaha. They were both former military and actually why they moved south as she was on disability.

Retirees move for weather. The middle age people are moving for a better life. The higher number aren't because more people are retiring.

^^^ Sweet  mercy, CF...you just make shit up that matches up with whatever story you want to tell.

"I know this guy who thinks _____"

"I met this person who said ______"

What a maroon...

Funny you say that about me but not Hoodie. Registrations are matching what I "claim" is my experience and it backs me up but the actual facts doesn't matter to you. You just wanted to get a rise out of m and now I'm embarrassed I wasted a moment of my time responding to you. Truth has never mattered to you.

I buy it. I 100% believe that CF has those interactions. I see groups of people here in Connecticut that when they see my license plate (still florida.. working on getting it changed) and they tell me how lucky i am to have desantis as a governor.

It's easy to like the guy that fox news (and related right wing media, social or otherwise) has basically made out to be the best governor in the history of the world.

He sure is wildly popular in Florida and should win this election by a landslide.

I haven't seen him disrespect healthcare workers yet, so that is a plus.

That and the lower taxes (income, sales, and property).

For the most part property tax and sales tax was very  similar.  Income tax was mostly irrelevant as they were retired with very little taxable income and living off of savings. Despite the claims of FL politicians the number one draw of Florida is weather not anything they actually do.

It's always weird to hear conservatives talk about people loving the economic freedom of TX and FL, when CA has a lot more residents than either one.
"Lots of people want to live here" means your style of governance is better... unless we are talking about every major city in America (nearly all of which are heavily Democratic) where suddenly that stops being the case, and the number of people living there is somehow irrelevant.

Kind of convienent to skip over state taxes of which Florida does not have. None, nada zip and those pensions get taxed as well as social security.

Lol ... are you being serious or just trying to see what sticks? Those metropolis that you so brag about are filled with low income and homeless who really don't have other choices. The free crap is given out so they come. The remaining poor soles around the state are left to provide for them. It's no secret why those cities have the highest homelessness, crime, etc and it isn't because they choosing have a better quality of life. The state of California's population declined 0.3% between 2021 and 2022. San Franciso lost like the largest amount of people in the country in the last couple of years. PLaces like New York, Chicago etc are still losing people as well while Florida and Texas are continuing to grow at the fastest paces ever. Something changed and it isn't global warming ... hahahaha

The data I saw shows New York and Chicago are still growing. There was a down trend during the pandemic but that is understandable.

You cannot seriously believe that the most expensive real estate in the country is occupied by "low income and homeless."
And to be honest, I don't think you want to compare the income levels of crime-ridden blue states to those of freedom-loving red states.  We all know the answer to that particular question.

We have already previously discussed (http://www.thedolphinsmakemecry.com/forums/index.php?topic=26100.msg365525;topicseen#msg365525) how "poor souls" across the country are forced to subsidize low-tax red states that don't want to provide for their own residents.

They have higher homelessness because they haven't taken innovative steps like Texas to simply outlaw homelessness (https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/20/texas-homeless-camps-ban-legislature/).

People are leaving CA - which is still the most populous state in the union, by far - because it's really expensive to live here.  And the reason why real estate is expensive in CA is not, say, property taxes, as CA has lower property taxes (https://www.rocketmortgage.com/learn/property-taxes-by-state) than both FL and TX.  Real estate is expensive in CA because more people want to live here than in any other state.  I'm sure you're a fan of capitalism, so you should understand what extremely high demand does to prices.

But you're right: people are moving to cheaper red states, not because they like the policies of the government, but because they can no longer afford to live in a more desirable place.  And when they arrive, guess what they do?  They try to "California-ize" their new communities, which causes no shortage of bellyaching from conservatives like you.

The circle is squared.

edit: fixed broken link formatting

They did NOT move to Florida to save money on taxes.  They moved to Florida for warmer weather.  Other factors included already having family and friends there and being closer to original state than say AZ, TX or California.  In some cases they may have saved money.  But that wasn’t the reason any of them moved there.

DeSantis wins by almost 20%. He turned 1.5 million people. That's a hell of a flip in just 4 years. It's as if my lies could have been truth all long. Go figure.

I think you're right, CF, but for the wrong reasons.

There has been a demographic shift.  The Cuban population down South is bigger and it's way redder.  The "socialism" message has played incredibly well down here.  It worked.

Florida is red.  Red.  Red.

But it's been red and this is just a nail in the coffin.  Florida will not be in play for 2 decades.

I'm thinking there will probably be a shift in the Democratic party in Florida away from moderates.  Dems ran a former Repulican and a Sherrif and both lost pretty huge.

I don't disagree with you in your area. There is no doubt blacks and latinos in south florida have turned but in my area where we have a ton of people who have relocated to Florida many are doing so as Republican voters.

My blue state had a blue wave and even stuff like state reps and state senators went blue in my area.

I'm glad to see Fetterman won. Also looks like Georgia is going to a runoff in december.

All in all the predicted red wave didn't happen and looks like Trump endorsed candidates lost big across the country.  On the flip side where Biden actively campaigned, it looks like Democrats won almost 100%.

Biden has performed the best out of any president in recent history during their first midterm. He did better than Reagan, Carter, Clinton, Bush, Trump, and Obama.

Here's the positive takeaway for America:

I don't mind that people who don't agree with me win elections.  That's how it's supposed to work.  So, if the party in power is blamed for high gas or groceries or inflation and the thought is that the other party can do better, we switch.  I don't agree that the other party can do a better job, but it's not up to me alone, so we vote.

In Florida, several people I don't like won huge in the state.  While that sucks for me, it's fine.  They ran, the won.

For me, for the good of America, there are some non-negotiables.  Election denial, insurrection -- essentially any power-grab attempt that isn't a reflection of the rights of the voter -- that's where democracy dies.  And that shit failed HARD tonight.  So, I think that Brian Kemp is a bad choice for governor -- whatever.  He won.  And that's fine.   Because he didn't try to overthrow the government.  That election denial mindset was soundly defeated everywhere.  Democracy prevailed last night, even if it's an outcome I wouldn't have chosen and that's what matters.

Gerrymandering is the next thing we have to fight like that, but what we saw was a huge step.

The other thing is abortion rights.  People want legal abortion.  Conservatives, liberals, moderates -- everyone wants it.  And it's winning at the ballot box.  It's good, because it's a reflection of the people.  But it's also good for the progress of the nation.  When women control their own bodies, when women, in general, have better control of their lives over men, society works better.

So, we should be discussing taxes and safety vs. security -- that's when democracy works best.  And we did.  Without violence.  Without bullshit.  I'm very hopeful, actually.

----

As for Desantis winning by 20, it's not what I would have chosen.  People seem to really like him and while I definitely don't, the things he's doing are nothingburgers to me.  It's all stupid shit that amounts to shuffling papers around -- fighting with Disney, Carnival Cruise Lines, Fauci, immigrants from other states, which books are in the school library, drag queens reading to kids -- it's all culture war shit that is not an issue of importance to me or my family.  I think it's a dumb waste of resources that isn't helping anyone, but any harm from it is indirect.  It's not good, but it's not meaningful policy.  So, whatever.  I'm not too broken up about it.

Oh, one more thing -- A GOP house is fine, if that's what the people want.

But what is not fine is a GOP house that is stacked, where they're doing stunt bullshit, like impeaching Biden.  That's just garbage non-sense resource and time-wasting and would be a terrible outcome.  So, if the Dems win small, fine.  If the GOP wins small, fine -- because there won't be enough of them to be doing bullshit.  It will be gridlock, like always...not good, but the last thing we need is one branch of government trying to take out another as a revenge tactic, where there isn't merit.

Colorado went even bluer, legalized shrooms and lowered state income taxes on top. Pretty rad.

In regard to Florida state income tax, that's not something Republicans get to take credit for.

We've had Democratic control of things, governors, senators, etc, throughout history.  We haven't had a State income tax since 1855.  So, yes, it's a thing people like about moving here, but that's not something you need to vote Republican to achieve.

Washington state and Nevada also have no income tax.

Where it really gets interesting is when you have WA (with no income tax) sharing a border with OR (which has no sales tax).  The shenanigans are exactly what you would expect.

I’d like to see lower tax ( across the board ) democrats become a thing. Our governor here is a democrat who isn’t in favor of increases in taxes and balanced the budget that allowed an old provision to distribute extra rebates to residents. You can find money to take care of those who need it and provide vital services while still not punishing individuals and business.

That sounds like the GOP to a tee.

Then again, one of our Republican governors, (Romney) instituted Obamacare in our state long before Obama did.

Things can be confusing

Charlie Baker's response to Covid was very liberal.  He took aggressive action.  Our state did not run out of beds in the hospital, and most people did not experience financial hardships.

Well except Polis didn’t cut any social services and isn’t pushing right wing cultural wars but yeah he could be considered a “fiscal conservative”

I voted Republican, however, some people in that party anger me because of their disrespect towards me, both as a healthcare worker and somebody who suffers from mental health issues.

Is it appropriate to rub it in to them about their failures this election when I voted Republican?

I’d probably just leave the republicans man, in a few years mental illness will grant you a one way ticket to a gas chamber.

Republicans are a party.  But they can change and they probably should.

They're archaic on climate change, LGBT, abortion...even things like healthcare.

So, there is a place for financial conservatism.  There is a place for military spending.  There is a place for "don't spend my taxes on things I'm morally against."  It's a back and forth.
But those aren't the cornerstones of the Republican party of now.  They are focusing on culture wars.  But it will correct and swing back and forth.  It always does.

I hope you’re right but I don’t think they are ever going back, at least not anytime soon. They are completely subsumed by the religious fanatics.

I think they have to if they want to be nationally relevant.  People wants legal abortion.  Even Republicans.  If they hold on to dying positions, they will die with them.

Again I hope you’re right, but I think it’s just as likely they do whatever it takes to maintain minority rule.

Fear not! The Republicans saw the polling results and now have a plan to make sure 2020 &2022 are not repeated.  Change their unpopular policies? No, the plan is to raise the voting age to 21.

i saw 30 in some places .. you know what they say .. if you can't beat them .. oppress them

I have a friend who was wearing a tee shirt that says, "if voting changed anything they would make it illegal". So I told her she should Google how many laws Republicans have introduced to restrict voting in the past two years.  Next day she texted me to tell me she registered to vote.  2022 was her first election she voted in.  I am kinda proud of myself. 

I voted a straight Democratic ticket for only the second time in my life, (and I've voted in every election since the early '80's) and until the GOP loses its "we'll do whatever Trump says, and believe whatever he wants us to believe" mindset, especially when it comes to election-denying, I can't see myself going back.

Oddly enough 2022 was only the second time I voted in a Republican primary.  The Republican governor primary was between a Mega and non Maga candidate. And one of the few times I voted for a Republican in the general election. Anthony Amore an anti-Trump Republican.  While I alighieri more with the Democrat that won, I want non trumpers to take back the Republican party.

Arizona stepped up again, with Katie Hobbs beating the "Soft Light Skank & Supreme Election Denier" Kari Lake for Governor.

One more AZ state election to go, with hometown candidate Kris Mayes (Prescott, AZ) with a tiny-tiny lead over another election denier, Abraham Hamadeh for the office of Attorney General.

Congratulations to Senate Democrats for suddenly pulling ahead & winning surprise victories by the perfect margins 4 days after the polls close in the dead of night in states with mail in voting for the 2nd time in a row. We'd never seen such a thing in the 244 years of free elections. You are pioneers.

In all honesty the elections are what is going to start a civil war. I don't think it will be a social issue. Unless states can figure out a way to perform elections in a way people feel they are legit and completed on election day we run the risk of undermining people's trust. It could have started sooner but I remember Al Gore and company (who I voted for)  doing it first, then Hillary, then Trump, and now moderate conservatives complaining.  No matter who you vote for when voter confidence is eroded enough people will try and take things into their own hands and that's scary to me.

You either have mail in voting, or you don't.

If you do, then you have to wait for the ballots to arrive, to then count them.  You can't count ballots in the mail on election night.

To be fair, none of these victories were really surprising. The republicans ran ass candidates. Like unelectable for dog catcher ass candidates.

I'm not sure I follow as I've never seen a mail in ballot. Why can't mail in ballots be scanned and even signatures matched elctronically?

Yes, Yes and Fuck Yes... What made it actually surprising was how excited the GOP leadership seemed to get over these dog catcher ass candidates.  If they had actually campaigned on the issues, instead of "Trump says you should hate the libs" and "we're still whining about the election we lost in 2020," these midterms would definitely have turned out different.

Oh well, better luck never time.

Actually, a few states in 2020 were going to count the mail in ballots on election night due to the massive increase caused by the pandemic. Guess who blocked that? Republican law makers because they knew when the mail in ballots came in it would skew against them. They were planning on crying fraud all along. Trump was going to do it in 2016, but he won. Whenever republicans lose, which as the future approaches is more likely, they will say fraud every time.

If Boebert loses here, she will say fraud, but it’s fine if she wins. Even though she took the lead back “in the dead of night”

Just because it is Republicans now doesn't mean it's exlusive to them. Like I mentioned ... Al Gore and Hillary both cried bout rigged elections as well. It really isn't a party thing. The biggest issue I have is even if there is no cheating going on ... the way we currently are doing things makes it easy for politicians to undermine results in the minds of the public. That isn't good for democracy. 

Gore probably wins if the recount continues, but he accepted the SCOTUS ruling. HRC did mention ( proven ) Russian interference as well as Comey’s BS, but she conceded within days. These are not the same.

But yes, none of this good for our country.

No they didn't.

Stop it with this false-equivalence bullshit.

Yes, there is an element of questioning shenanigans in terms of voter suppression and methods of how to count ballots that don't meet criteria -- and there's a lengthy process to work these things out as non-partisanly as possible.  We see this all the time, with recounts and hanging chads, and voter intent and all this -- no big deal.  All of these candidates can and should use any legal methods to fight for the legitimacy of any vote cast in their favor.  And they should raise any questions about potential decisions to dampen their turnout from partisan actors.  These are all appropriate actions and part of the election process.

That's not in the same league....not in the same sport....as saying that you are the legitimate winner of an election that you lost.  Both Hillary and Al Gore conceded their race to the eventual winner.

A lie.  A blatant lie.

Neither Al Gore nor Hilary Clinton ever raised the objection that the election was "rigged".

In both cases they received more votes than their opponent, yet lost the election.  People who believe in democracy feel that a system in which someone can be elected by minority rule is fundamentally unfair.  Stating that the electoral college system is flawed and should be altered is not the same as claiming that false claims of fraud.  

In 2000. Al Gore wanted a manual recount for an obviously flawed process in Florida.  Wanting a recount is not alleging fraud.  There were multiple recounts in 2020, that wasn't the problem and in 2020 every single one of the recounts confirmed the original results.  Having the recounts wasn't the problem, refusing to accept them is the problem.  There should have been a recount in 2000 in Florida.  But that is not an allegation of it being "rigged" just flawed.  

In 2016, Clinton never claimed the vote was rigged.  Actually Trump did and claimed if it wasn't for the "cheating" he would have won the popular vote too.  The idea of why Clinton/DNC would go to the trouble of committing fraud to "win" the popular vote rather than the electoral vote seems a bit illogical.  

Also 2016, some computer experts raised issues that four states had an unusually large number of people who did not vote for President and wanted recounts.  Clinton declined to ask for a recount.  Jill Stein, the Green party candidate, initiated a demand for recount.  Clinton got dragged into the mess, but the recounts were never completed after being blocked by Republican appointed judges despite the fact that the Green Party raised sufficient funds for the recounts to occur without taxpayer expense. 

In 2020 Trump fundraised on recounts but was never willing to actually fund them.  In some Republican controlled states they occurred at taxpayers expense, each time confirming Biden's victory. 

Obviously you have no desire to deal with truth so that's why I tend to ignore you. Even Google supports what I said and they cover up many things. Typically I have to go to something like Duck Duck Go but this isn't even trying to be a secret so you can Google too.

Hell  ... just two weeks ago Hillary said a plan is already in place by Republicans to steal the next Presidential election.

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is accusing Republicans of plotting to "steal the next presidential election."

Clinton, whose 2016 White House hopes were dashed by former President Donald Trump, made the accusation last week in a promotional video for the progressive advocacy group Indivisible.

"Right-wing extremists already have a plan to literally steal the next presidential election. And they’re not making a secret of it," said Clinton. "The right-wing-controlled Supreme Court may be poised to rule on giving state legislatures the power to overturn presidential elections."


https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trumps-denial-second-big-lie-ask-hillary-clinton-rcna55764

Trump’s mendacity is arguably the Second Big Lie. Four years earlier, the Hillary Clinton campaign and leading Democrats refused to acknowledge the outcome of the 2016 election, by claiming Donald Trump was not a legitimate president. These actions, while certainly not as dramatic or as immediately damaging as the events leading to Jan. 6 (and today), helped bring us to our current situation.

“He lost the election and he was put into office because the Russians interfered on his behalf,” ex-President Jimmy Carter said in 2019, continuing to deny Trump’s victory three years after the election.

“He knows he’s an illegitimate president,” said Clinton, also three years later. She repeated this sentiment in 2020, telling The Atlantic the election “was not on the level,” and again when she called Trump’s win illegitimate. She piled on to this by saying, “You can run the best campaign, you can even become the nominee, and you can have the election stolen from you,” clearly referring to how she saw her 2016 campaign.

Congressman and civil rights icon John Lewis went even further in 2017, saying: “I don’t see Trump as a legitimate president. … I think the Russians participated in helping this man get elected.”

Of course, Russia did meddle in the election via Facebook ads and cyberattacks, among other things, but as the Senate Intelligence Committee’s investigation of Russian interference concluded, there was no “evidence that vote tallies were manipulated.”

The uncomfortable reality is that Trump became president because 62 million Americans elected him. Denying this helped lead us to today, where a 2016 Economist/YouGov poll found that half of Clinton voters thought a foreign power tampered with voting results, while over 50%, and at times as much as 75%, of Republicans said they think Joe Biden was fraudulently elected, according to a Washington Post analysis.

"Right-wing extremists already have a plan to literally steal the next presidential election. And they’re not making a secret of it," said Clinton. "The right-wing-controlled Supreme Court may be poised to rule on giving state legislatures the power to overturn presidential elections."

Absolutely.  That was Kari Lake's campaign promise along with the many others. 

This is your own doing.

It is Republicans who have blocked and opposed (https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/11/04/slow-vote-counting-wisconsin-pennsylvania/) counting mail-in ballots as they arrive, insisting that mail-in ballots cannot be counted until polls close.  Why?  Because - after 4 years of demonizing and undermining mail-in voting among GOP voters, depressing GOP mail-in turnout - they don't want the first tallies displayed on TV screens Election Night to show Democrats with a huge lead.

Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

Yup, this right here. They tried to steal it last time, tried to intimidate congress into doing it, and have all but came out and said “we plan to steal it right next time, we are currently working to steal it and with God on our side we will steal it”

Interesting thing that got buried is Trump in a classic unhinged social media post claims he interfered in DeSantis’ ( I think ) election in 2018.