Bill Parcells vs. Jason Taylor

[simeon]

I am against what Tylor is doing and I appear to be in the minority. This is a professional sport where he gets paid MILLIONS per year to sack people. When you sign a contract you have made a commitment to your team ,your team mates and fans. While the rest of us smucks are struggling to get by day to day, with gas prices and everything else increasing in price besides our paychecks, Jayson is thumbing his nose at us and the dolphin franchise. I am tired of hearing I want out because I want to win a championship, did Marino cry like this ?Give us a break Jayson, if you don't want to play then why don't you give Chad Johnson a call, maybe you guys can hang out this season.

[Spider-Dan]

Because that was the contract that the player and his agent agreed to. Those last two words are really critical to this point...

"Agreed to"

If the player wants a contract where everything is guaranteed and where a team doesn't have the ability to terminate that contract, the player should have his agent negotiate that in. If you sign a contract, you honor the contract.

Once again: "agreed to" goes both ways.

If the owners didn't want the players to have the contractually negotiated ability to hold out for up to 10 games, why'd they agree to such terms in the CBA?

JT is exercising an option that the NFLPA fought very hard to earn.  Why is this any different than the Dolphins cutting Zach Thomas?  If they didn't want to pay him, why'd they agree to his contract?

[Spider-Dan]

I am against what Tylor is doing and I appear to be in the minority. This is a professional sport where he gets paid MILLIONS per year to sack people. When you sign a contract you have made a commitment to your team ,your team mates and fans.

Ask Zach Thomas what kind of commitment signing a contract really is.

When management shows that they have no qualms dumping you at the drop of a hat, why should you feel any sort of guilt over exercising an option that is completely legitimate under the collective bargaining agreement that both the players and the owners signed?

While the rest of us smucks are struggling to get by day to day, with gas prices and everything else increasing in price besides our paychecks, Jayson is thumbing his nose at us and the dolphin franchise.

I am disgusted when I hear people complain about how athletes need to shut up because they make enough already.

First of all, it smacks of pure bitterness; athletes get paid based on the amount of money they (as a group) bring in.  But more importantly, for any American (or first-world citizen) to sit on a computer and make a post to the internet about how someone else makes too much money and needs to simply be grateful for what they have is rank hypocrisy.

The fact that you are able to make this post to an internet message board indicates that you are likely in a better financial situation than over 90% of the population of this planet.  Yet I'm sure that we all have had disputes with our employers, quit one job for a better one, etc.  By your logic, since none of us ever need to worry about where our next meal is coming from (which puts us at a decided advantage over several billion people on Earth), why aren't we all still working for minimum wage?

[bsfins]

I tottaly disagree with anyone that tries to Compare My job to a professional athelete,then tell my I should treat them just like I would want to be treated....MOST Professional atheltes are over paid for what they do...

It's like my Boss says,They pay me the Big Bucks to deal with the Big shits.....

[Spider-Dan]

I tottaly disagree with anyone that tries to Compare My job to a professional athelete,then tell my I should treat them just like I would want to be treated....MOST Professional atheltes are over paid for what they do...

How do you figure they are overpaid?  They generate hundreds of millions of dollars for their teams.  You think they should be making the same as a district manager at Safeway?

As I've already said, the money they make is based on the money they bring in.  And they bring in a HELL of a lot of money.

And just like I mentioned, someone who is making the equivalent of two dollars a day doing backbreaking physical labor for 14 hours a day would almost certainly believe that YOU are overpaid for what YOU do.  Those that live in glass houses...

[bsfins]

Again Do you really need to make 5 million dollars a year to survive in America...Nope....That's the point...

But you're going to continue to argue semantics.....and wag your finger at everyone for Saying he makes 8 million dollars a year..So we should feel sorry for him...bullshit....

If the owners didn't want the players to have the contractually negotiated ability to hold out for up to 10 games, why'd they agree to such terms in the CBA?

Modified to add...On the holding out ten games as part of their contract,You're totally misinterpreting that,it's not in their contract saying they can hold out.......They can hold out for 10 games before losing a year of service....Meaning if they have 3 years left on their contract,and they hold out for ten games,then play for the last 6..they'll have 2 years left on that contract.If they hold out for 11 games,when they do come back They aren't allowed to count that as a full year of service meaning they would still have 3 years left on their contract....It's a clause to protect the Clubs from someone holding out,and having someone sit out their contract,then signing with a different team.....Let's remember Ricky's Contract got picked right back up,where it left off before his sudden retirement...(I think minus the bonuses he accrued before his retirement)

[Spider-Dan]

Again Do you really need to make 5 million dollars a year to survive in America...Nope....That's the point...

You can survive in America on minimum wage.  Millions of Americans survive on that, or even less.  But somehow, I doubt anyone posting in this thread is at that level.

But you're going to continue to argue semantics.....and wag your finger at everyone for Saying he makes 8 million dollars a year..So we should feel sorry for him...bullshit....

No, what I'm saying is: we are ALL overpaid, relative to the majority of the world.  Don't hate him because he's more overpaid than you are; to someone living off of a 3-digit income per year, you're no different than Jason Taylor.

Modified to add...On the holding out ten games as part of their contract,You're totally misinterpreting that,it's not in their contract saying they can hold out.......They can hold out for 10 games before losing a year of service....Meaning if they have 3 years left on their contract,and they hold out for ten games,then play for the last 6..they'll have 2 years left on that contract.

Correct.  So in order to fulfill the terms of their contract, they only need to play 6 games per year, as per the collective bargaining agreement.

Therefore, even if JT wanted to continue playing in the NFL (but just not in Miami), he would have to dress for 6 games this year, and 6 games next year.  And that would be honoring his contract in precisely the same sense and spirit that the Dolphins honored Zach Thomas' contract when they cut him.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

I agree with Spider Dan.  Why should the owners pocket massive amounts of money off of the sweat of others with little cost?  Without them there would be no sport to begin with.  

Aside from that, getting paid that much only increases the quality of the game.  If they got paid (players) what a store manager at Jiffy Lube got paid I doubt many would get into the sport to begin with.  Why do you think there are no more heavyweight boxers worth anything from the US?  

[bsfins]

They can make 200,000 a year,and there would still be 10 guy's replace them.....As fans (most) tend to expect more from the guy's that make more money...Ie the Jason Taylors,then you do the guy's that make the miniumum...What they make for the Owners is irrelavant......I feel it's the same argument that Ethurst was trying to make comparing it to Slavery...The game will go on....For every one guy that whines about how bad it is..there's 10 there more than willing to replace him....

I totally disagree with Higher salaries = Better quality game...The College players don't make squat,what dilutes the College game is 300 + teams....And it's only been the past 10-20 years that players have made Extraordinary Salaries....Where the Players are making on average like 5 times higher than the average person in america...(say a minumum Salary $300,000 say average american making $60,000)

I Feel Jason Taylor is being a Whiny little rich Bitch,Either trade me or I'll retire....He's not threatening to hold out... 

Total hijack

 Why do you think there are no more heavyweight boxers worth anything from the US?  

There's tons of reasons for that...and it's not all about the money....Boxing in general is dying..not just heavywieghts....
End hijack...

[ethurst2]

Someone bought up minimum wage.

I think that this country could do better to the average working guy as far as wages. Most of us are in the same boat. We make the companies that we work for millions of dollars and it's an embarassment for Congress to argue if someone should get a 50 cent raise per year.

NFL owners make a ton of money. It's almost insane the type of money that they make. Remember, the NFL surpasses MLB as America's number one sport years ago in viewership, product manufacturing and marketing.

The income distribution can be more even in America if we didn't have all these damn taxes and if people were valued for what they are worth. Many Americans are undervalued in the current jobs they have.

So Taylor is exercising his value at the same time. One person on this board cannot tell me that if they had their choice, if they would still work for their current employer or if a better position came with more cash and benefits that they wouldn't go after that.

Same thing happened to me when I was in the corporate world as a bank auditor. Alltel offered me more money than I was making for the state (car, travel, executive position) and the department that I worked for blocked it. I wasn't under a "contract" I was just an employee that could be fired at any time.

You can say that I was a restricted free agent and didn't even know it.

[simeon]

As a true right wing conservative I do support someones ability to make whatever they can, but I will always fall on the side of the owners, because it is a business. I have had jobs where I have signed a contract, either I fulfilled them or was laidoff.
What upsets me about what Jayson is doing is the fact he is thumbing his nose at this organization and its fans. I am sick and tired of professional athletes pulling the strings of an organization. I personally blame the unions, every time they touch something it makes things worst. This is a business and as long as a team owns a contract you signed they have every right to do as they please with that player.
Jayson can quit for all I care, why not after all he is a team player. These players are way over paid(my opion) the price is going up to go see a game because of these prima donnas who believe they own the world.

[Spider-Dan]

They can make 200,000 a year,and there would still be 10 guy's replace them.....

Yes, most of them being CFL, AFL, or (former) XFL players.  Do you think those products are just as good as the NFL?

As fans (most) tend to expect more from the guy's that make more money...Ie the Jason Taylors,then you do the guy's that make the miniumum...

Guys that make the minimum don't win Defensive Player of the Year, make 6 Pro Bowls, and 3 first-team All-Pros, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

What they make for the Owners is irrelavant......I feel it's the same argument that Ethurst was trying to make comparing it to Slavery...The game will go on....For every one guy that whines about how bad it is..there's 10 there more than willing to replace him....

I don't see how it has anything to do with slavery at all; it is the very definition of market economics.

America is willing to pay (and is paying) billions of dollars for the product that the NFL provides.  Since this money is already on the table, it can either go entirely to the owners, or partially to the players.  Arguing that players are overpaid just means that you think owners are underpaid; given that the owners are far richer than any player, this seems absurd.

One could make the argument that the NFL should just charge less, but that's a naive and rather silly argument; if they are already selling out stadiums with ticket prices as they are, what possible reason would they have to lower them?  Should they go back to CBS/NBC/Fox/ESPN and say, "OK, we see that you guys want to pay us 3 billion dollars for broadcast rights, but honestly, we'd feel better just accepting 2 billion?"

I totally disagree with Higher salaries = Better quality game...

Were you a big fan of the XFL?  How about Arena Football?

And it's only been the past 10-20 years that players have made Extraordinary Salaries....Where the Players are making on average like 5 times higher than the average person in america...(say a minumum Salary $300,000 say average american making $60,000)

Why are you stuck on what they make compared to the average person?  The average person doesn't generate millions of dollars for their business.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

As a true right wing conservative I do support someones ability to make whatever they can, but I will always fall on the side of the owners, because it is a business. I have had jobs where I have signed a contract, either I fulfilled them or was laidoff.
What upsets me about what Jayson is doing is the fact he is thumbing his nose at this organization and its fans. I am sick and tired of professional athletes pulling the strings of an organization. I personally blame the unions, every time they touch something it makes things worst. This is a business and as long as a team owns a contract you signed they have every right to do as they please with that player.
Jayson can quit for all I care, why not after all he is a team player. These players are way over paid(my opion) the price is going up to go see a game because of these prima donnas who believe they own the world.

Not trying to start a fight, but your argument is full of holes and mistakes. 

First- A contract does NOT mean the owner has every right to do as they please with a player.  Whatever is stated in the contract is it, as long as it falls within the parameters that both parties agreed to.  Hence the point of the contract.  No one gets screwed that never saw it coming (at least thats what its for anyways).

Second- The players have absolutely NO say in ticket prices.  The only thing they ever negotiate is their own salaries, and in comparison to what an NFL franchise rakes in it barely scratches that big money pile. 

Third- To blame unions making things "worst" is asinine.  I hardly see child labor laws, unfair wages and hours, unsafe working conditions, and equality as making things "worst".  Maybe you like slaving for an owner but many others don't.  They just want their fair share. 

[bsfins]

Spider you're the one that Says you're so disgusted by us fans that keep bringing up how much Jason Taylor Makes,and trying to compare it to the manger of Safe way....Let's remember there is this thing called the Salary Cap,and We incur a Cap penalty....Jason't Value is greater to the Miami Dolphins if He plays versus  anything we can get for him on the open market...This is the Issue....

Remember this Quote?

I am disgusted when I hear people complain about how athletes need to shut up because they make enough already.

First of all, it smacks of pure bitterness; athletes get paid based on the amount of money they (as a group) bring in.  But more importantly, for any American (or first-world citizen) to sit on a computer and make a post to the internet about how someone else makes too much money and needs to simply be grateful for what they have is rank hypocrisy.

The fact that you are able to make this post to an internet message board indicates that you are likely in a better financial situation than over 90% of the population of this planet.  Yet I'm sure that we all have had disputes with our employers, quit one job for a better one, etc.  By your logic, since none of us ever need to worry about where our next meal is coming from (which puts us at a decided advantage over several billion people on Earth), why aren't we all still working for minimum wage?

Let's see the the Safeway manager Walking up to his boss and say, I want to work for a winner....Trade me or I'm not coming to work for the next 2 weeks...IT doesn't work that way.....They say Bye bye, Have fun walking the Unemployment line.....

Yes, most of them being CFL, AFL, or (former) XFL players.  Do you think those products are just as good as the NFL?

You brought up the world economy...Where else can Jason Taylor play football and make 8 million dollars a year? Hmm china?,Japan?

Guys that make the minimum don't win Defensive Player of the Year, make 6 Pro Bowls, and 3 first-team All-Pros, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

That's right,You have to play many years to do that..first...So what's your point? or are you going to change your stance again?

I don't see how it has anything to do with slavery at all; it is the very definition of market economics.

America is willing to pay (and is paying) billions of dollars for the product that the NFL provides.  Since this money is already on the table, it can either go entirely to the owners, or partially to the players.  Arguing that players are overpaid just means that you think owners are underpaid; given that the owners are far richer than any player, this seems absurd.

One could make the argument that the NFL should just charge less, but that's a naive and rather silly argument; if they are already selling out stadiums with ticket prices as they are, what possible reason would they have to lower them?  Should they go back to CBS/NBC/Fox/ESPN and say, "OK, we see that you guys want to pay us 3 billion dollars for broadcast rights, but honestly, we'd feel better just accepting 2 billion?"

and this has to do with what about Jason Taylor Holding out not playing for the Dolphins..Again it's the Same as Ethurst arguing Slavery...You're arguing NFL politcs..Not the Jason Taylor case.....The average person can't relate making $60,000 a year...But you seem to be implying... The Dolphins Will cease to make money of Jason Taylor isn't on the team....

Why are you stuck on what they make compared to the average person?  The average person doesn't generate millions of dollars for their business.

Because it goes back to you first quote,and Wagging your finger at everyone..Like We should feel sorry for Jason taylor....And continue to Argue just to argue....

Arguing that players are overpaid just means that you think owners are underpaid;

I've never said that...You did and you assumed it...You need read what's there.....The owners also have more expenses,and have the marketing,and Incur all the expenses...The player is an employee...Do you make more than the owner? sounds absurd doesn't it?

So when you want to argue about Jason Taylor I'll continue the conversation,But if you keep want to keep bitching about "the Man" the owners keeping Jason Taylor down..I'm done....

[Spider-Dan]

Let's remember there is this thing called the Salary Cap,and We incur a Cap penalty....Jason't Value is greater to the Miami Dolphins if He plays versus  anything we can get for him on the open market...This is the Issue....

That's if he plays.  If he doesn't play (which is his contractually negotiated right), then his value is not greater.

Let's see the the Safeway manager Walking up to his boss and say, I want to work for a winner....Trade me or I'm not coming to work for the next 2 weeks...IT doesn't work that way.....They say Bye bye, Have fun walking the Unemployment line.....

You're forgetting a significant detail; there would be teams lining up to acquire Jason Taylor if he were released, paying him the same (or more) than he is receiving now.

So the more accurate analogy would be the Safeway manager being fired, then being hired one week later by Costco, for a better job making equivalent or superior pay.

You brought up the world economy...Where else can Jason Taylor play football and make 8 million dollars a year? Hmm china?,Japan?

San Diego?

That's right,You have to play many years to do that..first...So what's your point? or are you going to change your stance again?

You claim that you expect more from the guys making more money.  JT has already delivered more.  What is your point?

and this has to do with what about Jason Taylor Holding out not playing for the Dolphins..Again it's the Same as Ethurst arguing Slavery...You're arguing NFL politcs..Not the Jason Taylor case.....The average person can't relate making $60,000 a year...But you seem to be implying... The Dolphins Will cease to make money of Jason Taylor isn't on the team....

You keep accusing me of involving outside politics and sidetracking the discussion.

What does the average income of a middle-class citizen have to do with Jason Taylor's contract?

If you are going to continue to beat that drum, I'm going to continue to hold your feet to the fire on it.  The ONLY REASON it even came up in the first place is because YOU (and others like you) were complaining that because Taylor makes much more than any of us, he should just shut up.

Now you tell me:  what POSSIBLE relevance does our income have to this situation?

If you want to just talk about Jason Taylor, let's talk about him:

- The collective bargaining agreements allow players to sit out of training camp, preseason games, and regular season games (at a loss of pay).
- Jason Taylor is exercising an option that his representatives have fought for and earned.
- The team exercises a very similar option multiple times every year when they cut players.

So why is this even an issue?  Why is it bad and dishonorable for a player to exercise his option, but perfectly OK for the team to exercise theirs?