To those here that live in Philly, I am sorry for your Loss.............

[Dave Gray]

He gave a Black woman a ticket for blowing through a stop sign. She and her Lawyer Husband thought they would investigate the officer instead of just admitting guilt. (He had her on Video Tape btw  ) They found that over 90% of his tickets issued were given to Black people and minorities and filed a Civil action against the Dept.

I'm growing tired of repeating myself.  You don't understand the math.  I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but that's the bottom line.  I'll explain it one more time, and then I'm done.  I'm not an algebra teacher.

Of course your statement makes sense.  90% of tickets to blacks in a 90% black population makes sense and a racial claim in unwarranted.

That is not the same as what I'm saying in regards to the discrepancy with death row.

I'm going to use numbers I make up simply to illustrate the point.  I don't have the real data.

Lets say that 500 black men commit murder.  50 of them are executed.  That's 10%.
Then, lets say that 200 white men commit murder.  20 of them are executed.  That's also 10%.

Even though 50 > 20, the percentages match up, so the system is fair.

However this isn't what's happening.
If 500 blacks commit murder and 50 are executed, while  -- (10%)
200 whites commit murder and only 10 are executed -- (5%)

This is what's happening.  It's not the discrepancy in total executions that troublesome.  It's the discrepancy between those that are executed vs. those that are not, within the same race.

And this is simplified.  When you start using the race of the victim as well, it's even more apparent.

----


I understand that the race-card is overplayed.  However, that's not to say that racism still doesn't occur sometimes.  I believe that the death penalty is one of those places, and the data supports that.   It's a shame that people cry wolf, like in your ticket situation above, because it takes away from cases where it's actually happening.

It's ignorant to cry race on every issue, but it's as ignorant to deny that race plays a part in some things.

[run_to_win]

Lets say that 500 black men commit murder.  50 of them are executed.  That's 10%.
Then, lets say that 200 white men commit murder.  20 of them are executed.  That's also 10%.

Even though 50 > 20, the percentages match up, so the system is fair.

However this isn't what's happening.
If 500 blacks commit murder and 50 are executed, while  -- (10%)
200 whites commit murder and only 10 are executed -- (5%)

This is what's happening.  It's not the discrepancy in total executions that troublesome.  It's the discrepancy between those that are executed vs. those that are not, within the same race.

You'd make a good algebra teacher.

If what you say is true, then yes, it is a problem.  However, I don't remember seeing any percentages such as your second example, only the raw numbers as in your first example.

The pragmatist in me wants to suggest that we just execute 'em all and let God sort 'em out, but I don't want to be accused of stealing 5499's cheese.   

It's a shame that people cry wolf, like in your ticket situation above, because it takes away from cases where it's actually happening.

Exactly. 

I believe that this is how people like Jessie and Al actually contribute to racism.  I remember a time when allegations of racism were met with a horrific gasp.  Now they're more likely to be met with roll of the eyes.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

You can tell your insecurity because you always seem to be asking for help and want to team up with others because your too stupid to make a valid point on your own.
Maybe if you tried to make a point instead of just attacks people would take you more seriously. Did you call that number? Nothing to be ashamed for needing help bro.

I don't think anyone can prove others' points better than you can without even knowing it.  Forty something years old and can't even respond to comments coherently.  Again...forty something.  Wow...

Edit to add: Yea, I'm the one that isn't taken seriously around here.  You're in your forties and no-one gives a shit about you or what you have to say.

And its YOU'RE as in YOU ARE not YOUR!!!!  You're in your forties and everyone else on this board is smarter than you.  (see?)  LOL...too easy

[Defense54]

I'm growing tired of repeating myself.  You don't understand the math.  I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but that's the bottom line.  I'll explain it one more time, and then I'm done.  I'm not an algebra teacher.

Of course your statement makes sense.  90% of tickets to blacks in a 90% black population makes sense and a racial claim in unwarranted.

That is not the same as what I'm saying in regards to the discrepancy with death row.

I'm going to use numbers I make up simply to illustrate the point.  I don't have the real data.

Lets say that 500 black men commit murder.  50 of them are executed.  That's 10%.
Then, lets say that 200 white men commit murder.  20 of them are executed.  That's also 10%.

Even though 50 > 20, the percentages match up, so the system is fair.

However this isn't what's happening.
If 500 blacks commit murder and 50 are executed, while  -- (10%)
200 whites commit murder and only 10 are executed -- (5%)

This is what's happening.  It's not the discrepancy in total executions that troublesome.  It's the discrepancy between those that are executed vs. those that are not, within the same race.

And this is simplified.  When you start using the race of the victim as well, it's even more apparent.

----


I understand that the race-card is overplayed.  However, that's not to say that racism still doesn't occur sometimes.  I believe that the death penalty is one of those places, and the data supports that.   It's a shame that people cry wolf, like in your ticket situation above, because it takes away from cases where it's actually happening.

It's ignorant to cry race on every issue, but it's as ignorant to deny that race plays a part in some things.

Look....... depending on what side of the argument you are on anyone can make up percentages or bend them to fit their point of view. 

For arguments sake lets say your percentages are on the money.  Whats to say taken by a case to case basis , that the amount of Blacks that were executed didn't deserve it?   


Take it anyway you want. If your against it , your most likely to believe anything you read or hear . I'm for  it so I guess I'm not. Fair enough.

But I have spent time with these SOB's. I've had long conversations during Jury Trial's and I can tell you these earth is better without them. The Prison system is better without them. Just separating society from them is not enough. Their very existence effects everyone around them.

[MaineDolFan]

^^I actually respect your stance on this.  I think it's warranted in some cases, I personally would like to see extreme caution in those cases.

[Dave Gray]

For arguments sake lets say your percentages are on the money.  Whats to say taken by a case to case basis , that the amount of Blacks that were executed didn't deserve it?

I'm not saying whether or not they deserved it.  I'm saying that the fact that they were black caused them to face death more often.  Over a sample size so large, it's a statistical impossibility to just be bad luck.

Take it anyway you want. If your against it , your most likely to believe anything you read or hear . I'm for  it so I guess I'm not. Fair enough.

No, I don't concede that.  I am not creating stats to fit my viewpoint.  I created my viewpoint because of the stats.  I have changed my position on issues over the years, when I found new information.  I do not ignore information when its inconvenient for me.   I'm not simply trying to win an argument.

[Defense54]

[quote author=Dave Gray link
I'm not saying whether or not they deserved it.  I'm saying that the fact that they were black caused them to face death more often.  Over a sample size so large, it's a statistical impossibility to just be bad luck.

Are you trying to say , That if a White man and a Black man committed the same exact crime under the same circumstances........that the black man is more likely to get the higher punishment because of his color?  I'm sorry Dave........But I have to strongly disagree.  I've sat through Jury selections. Hundreds of them. Do you know that in order to dismiss a black person from a jury panel you HAVE to give a race Neutral reason?  Such as .......the person made a comment on such and such. But to dismiss a white person all that is needed is your saying you don't like the person. The System goes out of its way to make sure that its a fair trial. Most of the time against the Victim's rights. I've seen so many things that go in the defendants favor that its not even funny. So many State Attorney's choose to go for life instead of death because the fight is so expensive and HARD.  That's the way Pro lifers want it. But when the fight is worth it and it goes the distance its because the person is a Guilty SOB and he deserves it.



If your percentages show that more Blacks are convicted and sentenced to death......fine then. But You can not prove to me that its because they were Black.
You can think that because your against the Death penalty and it gives you another tool to use against it, but you can't prove it.

No, I don't concede that.  I am not creating stats to fit my viewpoint.  I created my viewpoint because of the stats.  I have changed my position on issues over the years, when I found new information.  I do not ignore information when its inconvenient for me.   I'm not simply trying to win an argument.

I did not mean to imply you made anything up. I apologize if I gave that impression. I just meant that you choose to look at the percentages and see something that I don't because of the way you feel about it.
 

[Dave Gray]

Are you trying to say , That if a White man and a Black man committed the same exact crime under the same circumstances........that the black man is more likely to get the higher punishment because of his color?  I'm sorry Dave........But I have to strongly disagree.

That is precisely what I'm saying, and statistical data backs it up.  There's nothing to disagree with.  Numbers are numbers.

I've sat through Jury selections. Hundreds of them. Do you know that in order to dismiss a black person from a jury panel you HAVE to give a race Neutral reason?  Such as .......the person made a comment on such and such. But to dismiss a white person all that is needed is your saying you don't like the person. The System goes out of its way to make sure that its a fair trial. Most of the time against the Victim's rights. I've seen so many things that go in the defendants favor that its not even funny. So many State Attorney's choose to go for life instead of death because the fight is so expensive and HARD.  That's the way Pro lifers want it. But when the fight is worth it and it goes the distance its because the person is a Guilty SOB and he deserves it.

I don't mean to diminish your life experience, but what does your experience sitting in on hundreds of trials have to do with the percentage of blacks that are executed vs. whites?  You make some points about racism, but it's for a different issue entirely.  It's sounds like you are angry at reverse racism in the system, and you have a valid reason to be, but it doesn't give you the right to dismiss racism in the system as well, when it occurs.

If your percentages show that more Blacks are convicted and sentenced to death......fine then. But You can not prove to me that its because they were Black.
You can think that because your against the Death penalty and it gives you another tool to use against it, but you can't prove it.

What do you think proof is?  If the numbers support a higher percentage of blacks being convicted for the same crime, that is proof.   That's statistical evidence to make that claim.  That's the only proof that we can have.  Evidence.

Now, you can question the statistics themselves, as to whether or not they're tainted or valid, but assuming that they're correct, what's to argue?

Another thing -- You come across very angry.  You've called them "SOBs" several times in this post, which makes me think that you're having more of an emotional response than a logical one.   In fact, it appears that your experience in witnessing cases makes you less rational as you're vested in the outcome.  You make a bunch of points that while they may be true, are unrelated to the point.

My position is a difficult one to take.  I'm essentially protecting the rights of the total dregs of society, in the hope of protecting the rights of a few that may not be guilty.  But I think that's important to do.

[Defense54]

That is precisely what I'm saying, and statistical data backs it up.  There's nothing to disagree with.  Numbers are numbers.

What your data is not saying is the reasons and the circumstances behind each case. Just saying he was black and executed doesn't cut it. For instance......A Black man stabs someone to death and a white person stabs someone to death. The Black man gets death Row while the white one gets life. There are So many other factors that lead up to death row. That's what you are dismissing.  Did the Black guy stab once or 10 times? Was sex involved? What was the age and sex of the victim? Did the Black guy have a criminal History of violent crime?  Its easy to look at a bunch of numbers and make a judgemental assessment. You know NOTHING of the cases or the actual crimes or the people involved.




 

Another thing -- You come across very angry.  You've called them "SOBs" several times in this post, which makes me think that you're having more of an emotional response than a logical one.

   

Please don't judge me by a few words written on a forum. You know nothing of me , and what I'm like.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. I have a unique perspective into a lot of issues and I just thought you all would like to see a different side of what you may read or hear about on TV.  One thing I have come to realize through life experience and dealing with so many different people on a daily basis is there are 3 sides to every story..........Yours , mine and the Truth.

I know guys like Las Vegas are just too dumb to know any better  but I expect more from you . Its your place. Your rules. But If we can't discuss this without getting personal let me know and I'll just stay on the Dolphin boards. No harm done and at least we can remain friends.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

   

Please don't judge me by a few words written on a forum. You know nothing of me , and what I'm like.  I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here. I have a unique perspective into a lot of issues and I just thought you all would like to see a different side of what you may read or hear about on TV.  One thing I have come to realize through life experience and dealing with so many different people on a daily basis is there are 3 sides to every story..........Yours , mine and the Truth.

I know guys like Las Vegas are just too dumb to know any better  but I expect more from you . Its your place. Your rules. But If we can't discuss this without getting personal let me know and I'll just stay on the Dolphin boards. No harm done and at least we can remain friends.

Again, forty something and thats what he can put together.

I'm dumb yet its too dificult for you to grasp the elementary school break down of Dave's point without feeling attacked.  So since at your age you're not full of wisdom I wonder what the other alternative is?

[Dave Gray]

What your data is not saying is the reasons and the circumstances behind each case. Just saying he was black and executed doesn't cut it. For instance......A Black man stabs someone to death and a white person stabs someone to death. The Black man gets death Row while the white one gets life. There are So many other factors that lead up to death row. That's what you are dismissing.  Did the Black guy stab once or 10 times? Was sex involved? What was the age and sex of the victim? Did the Black guy have a criminal History of violent crime?  Its easy to look at a bunch of numbers and make a judgemental assessment. You know NOTHING of the cases or the actual crimes or the people involved.

You are flat out incorrect, and I'm tired of debating something that isn't debatable.

It's the laws of statistics.  In a single case, or even in a handful of cases, there can be circumstances that will skew percentages.  But in a sample size as large as we have, all of those other factors average out.  It's the basic scientific method.  Take a large sample set and change only one variable to make a conclusion about it

If you are unable to accept this basic principle, then I cannot converse with you any further...it's making my hair fall out.

I'm not saying you're wrong about your opinions on the death penalty.  You can support it and that's fine.  But you are wrong about reading statistical data.  You can argue that the data isn't legit (shit, I haven't even presented the data), but if the numbers are correct, you can't ignore the conclusion.

[Dave Gray]

I know guys like Las Vegas are just too dumb to know any better  but I expect more from you . Its your place. Your rules. But If we can't discuss this without getting personal let me know and I'll just stay on the Dolphin boards. No harm done and at least we can remain friends.

Maybe you misunderstood.  I'm not attacking your character or saying that you're acting inappropriately towards me.  I'm saying that by the words you choose, that you are clearly emotionally tied to this issue.  You are vested in the outcome because you see it so regularly.  I was merely suggesting that maybe you are unable to be completely objective because of it.

That's all.

(Although, on a side note -- please cool it with the personal attacks on others.  I've had several complaints from other posters.)

[Defense54]

You are flat out incorrect, and I'm tired of debating something that isn't debatable.

 

And I think thats the Problem. Its VERY debatable and an extremely one sided conclusion. 

What it comes down to is I'm involved in the System. When I see the result of someones actions I guess I tend to be less forgiving then others that just look at a bunch of numbers.  Lets Agree to disagree. I never set out to change your mind but I hope I presented a different point of view.

[Defense54]

[quote author=Dave Gray link=topic=10589.msg110008#msg110008 
(Although, on a side note -- please cool it with the personal attacks on others.  I've had several complaints from other posters.)
[/quote]


Just look back at this thread alone and I have several other examples if you would like them. Then tell me where the problem is.

[MaineDolFan]

Again, forty something and thats what he can put together.

I'm dumb yet its too dificult for you to grasp the elementary school break down of Dave's point without feeling attacked.  So since at your age you're not full of wisdom I wonder what the other alternative is?

Slight hijack here - I'm curious what age has to with anything?  Do I agree with Defense's stance on this topic?  No.  I feel that he and Dave are actually communicating fairly effectively on a topic where neither will back down.  You're allowing your personal dislike for someone to cloud your vision on what that person is saying - and then you're using his age is a scapegoat to try to further your point.  I take a little offense at that, I'm 37.  There are quite a few of us late 30's, early 40's guys in here.  Using someone's age as a fighting tactic isn't appropriate.  You don't agree with him, he doesn't agree with you.  As it's not appropriate for Defense to make comments such as "your father should have jerked off in the sink" it's also equally as off color to bring something in, such as age, that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Outside of the personal barbs - you both are making valid points.  It's a good conversation otherwise.