To those here that live in Philly, I am sorry for your Loss.............

[run_to_win]

Slight hijack here - I'm curious what age has to with anything?

Guys in their mid-20s know everything.  Just ask 'em.  Were any of the older guys here any different? 

The world is very black and white BEFORE you fully experience it.  In many cases you're just a fews year out from the shelter of your parents, and often not all the way out financially.  It's easy to young and idealistic.

[Defense54]

Slight hijack here - I'm curious what age has to with anything?  Do I agree with Defense's stance on this topic?  No.  I feel that he and Dave are actually communicating fairly effectively on a topic where neither will back down.  You're allowing your personal dislike for someone to cloud your vision on what that person is saying - and then you're using his age is a scapegoat to try to further your point.  I take a little offense at that, I'm 37.  There are quite a few of us late 30's, early 40's guys in here.  Using some one's age as a fighting tactic isn't appropriate.  You don't agree with him, he doesn't agree with you.  As it's not appropriate for Defense to make comments such as "your father should have jerked off in the sink" it's also equally as off color to bring something in, such as age, that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Outside of the personal barbs - you both are making valid points.  It's a good conversation otherwise.

Fair enough.Points well made and  I apologize for that remark.  Its just that I see race used as an excuse so much for so many things that when its presented at all I guess I can tend to not look at it fairly. To be honest and I really thought about the Topic before........Maybe my problem is I'm seeing the Whole discussion through the 9 cases that I dealt with personally.  Trust me when I tell you all 9 of those cases were well deserved. None were racially motivated, 6 blacks 2 whites and a Hispanic. All males. None of them are even close to getting executed but I have seen 2 back on appeal. I testified in 1 case.  It gives me great pleasure in knowing all 9 are sitting in a 6x8 basically waiting to die rather then living out a new life in a Max. security Prison learning a new Trade.

But What I'm trying to say is just because those 9 all really deserved it........I really have no personal knowledge of the other Thousands of cases in America. I'd like to think that the rest of the Law Enforcement and the State Attorneys who deal with those other cases put as much Time and effort as we did and felt as strongly as I did before choosing to ask to take another persons life.  I will sleep just fine doing what I did.

[MaineDolFan]

I am actually enjoying the debate between you and Dave.  I know Dave feels he is starting to repeat himself a little, but other than that it's a well spirited conversation.  Kudos, says I.

[Dave Gray]

I think I've said all I have to say on the subject.  At this point, we're not even debating the death penalty, we're arguing the scientific method.  If I cannot get you to acknowledge that, then I think we're done here.

Good convo, though.  Catch you on the flipside.

[bsmooth]

You are a moron. So's your dad for not blowing the load in the sink the night you were hatched. Why don't we just go back to the 17th century as well? Black men were killed then as well. Since when did the death Penalty issue even become a race issue? Because Anti Death Penalty activists don't have ANY OTHER foot to stand on. I just wish you people could try to make a point without going there just once. Just try to introduce facts instead of deflecting the issue with Race baiting.  It doesn't matter what color you are. If you kill with intent you need to die. Its that simple. If 10 Blacks commit Murder or 10 Whites so be it. 

It became an issue because more poor blacks have been executed percentage wise than whites, especially in the south. This is historical fact.
But I guess your nine case history is representative of death penalty application nationwide throughout the history of jurisprudence in this country. I guess the moratorium on death penalties in states due the the number of wrongly convicted people is just liberal judges throwing a bone to those whacky anti death penalty people.

[Guru-In-Vegas]

Slight hijack here - I'm curious what age has to with anything?  Do I agree with Defense's stance on this topic?  No.  I feel that he and Dave are actually communicating fairly effectively on a topic where neither will back down.  You're allowing your personal dislike for someone to cloud your vision on what that person is saying - and then you're using his age is a scapegoat to try to further your point.  I take a little offense at that, I'm 37.  There are quite a few of us late 30's, early 40's guys in here.  Using someone's age as a fighting tactic isn't appropriate.  You don't agree with him, he doesn't agree with you.  As it's not appropriate for Defense to make comments such as "your father should have jerked off in the sink" it's also equally as off color to bring something in, such as age, that has nothing to do with the discussion.

Outside of the personal barbs - you both are making valid points.  It's a good conversation otherwise.

Age has nothing to do with content of what is being said or what is being argued.  Calling people dumb, stupid, morons and they should have been aborted (more or less) hardly comes across as something a 40 year old would use as a defense.  That is all.  Its hard not to notice when 90% of a person's posts include some form of attack.  The fact that its coming from a middle aged person is astounding to say the least.

With that being said; Runz, is there anything more "black" and "white" to generalize everyone based on what you've experienced in life or what path you took.  Despite what you may think or how I come across I don't know everything and believe me, I'm fully aware of it. 

[Defense54]

It became an issue because more poor blacks have been executed percentage wise than whites, especially in the south. This is historical fact.
But I guess your nine case history is representative of death penalty application nationwide throughout the history of jurisprudence in this country. I guess the moratorium on death penalties in states due the the number of wrongly convicted people is just liberal judges throwing a bone to those whacky anti death penalty people.

Yes. I've admitted I may have been looking at this through the perspective of the people I've dealt with both in the Prison system and on a Law Enforcement level. But I still believe that just numbers doesn't prove that the people that were executed didn't deserve it.  The way I look at it and this is the Crust of the Problem for me......Is instead of looking at the whole picture and dividing it up by numbers and percentages, Did each person Black or white deserve the penalty of death? Why should it matter at all the color of the person and that more were black or white? Did each person no matter what race they were.......deserve it? That should be the only question........unless you are just really against it and are LOOKING for other excuses to condemn it.

While I have you here I apologize for the remark I made. Some of the things you said in Post #44 I took the wrong way.  You kinda accused me of some things in that post and brought Race into this out of nowhere but it brought the thread to a low point so I apologize.

[Defense54]

 

author=Guru-In-Vegas link=topic=10589.msg110069#msg110069 date=1210196517]
 Despite what you may think or how I come across I don't know everything and believe me, I'm fully aware of it. 
 

This from a person who thinks a drunk driver (Leonard little) deserves the death Penalty. I think the above statement is an understatement. 

[Guru-In-Vegas]

You misunderstood my point.  You were making a case for the death penalty based on giving the satisfaction to loved ones of a person who was abruptly taken away by another person.  I am against the death penalty.  I was just pointing out a little inconsistency in your argument.  But that my friend is the true understatement. 

[StL FinFan]

What about the loved ones of the convicted?  Why should they be made to suffer?  The convicted does not suffer anywhere near as much as their loved ones when someone is executed.

[run_to_win]

This is historical fact.

I keep getting told this but I've never been shown the data.

[Defense54]

What about the loved ones of the convicted?  Why should they be made to suffer?  The convicted does not suffer anywhere near as much as their loved ones when someone is executed.

No doubt they are Victims as well. But its their loved one that committed the act. The convicted will have time to make peace with his entire family, get his wishes known and is given every opportunity to do so. They are even given a last night to meet with them all and say good byes. That's something the Victim or his family never got.

[Defense54]

You misunderstood my point.  You were making a case for the death penalty based on giving the satisfaction to loved ones of a person who was abruptly taken away by another person.  I am against the death penalty.  I was just pointing out a little inconsistency in your argument.  But that my friend is the true understatement. 

Can you do that by actually taking the time to point out the inconsistency and trying to actually prove a valid point? Or is that asking too much? Cause.......nobody here has a clue what your talking about at this point.   

[StL FinFan]

I realise that the victim never got that, but the loved ones of the accused still have to suffer their death.  They didn't do anything.  So what if they get to say goodbye.  It doesn't make it any easier and it doesn't bring back the victim.  I used to be for the death penalty, but I am not anymore.  

[Guru-In-Vegas]

Fair enough. But would you rather have dinner with a man who also mourns the death of that mother and is sorry fr his actions...........or would you rather engage in a dinner convrsation with a guy who openly murdered and toutured dogs by extremly sick methods and is only sorry becuase he got caught?  Do you believe in second chances? If not fine. I hope you are perfect then.  If so...........who do you believe deserves the second chance?  I am quite confident you yourself have driven over the legal alcohol limit or at the very least know someone who has. Are they bad people or just people that made a bad descision ?

Before I became a Police officer I spent about a year working in a Maximum Security Prison. (Had to work my way up) .  Anyhow the above post makes a good point. People in Prison for life go to General population and even though its a suckie life for us.......they adjust and its all they know so it becomes Life.  They get 3 squares a day, they have cable TV sports, computers, you name it. Yeah they fuck each other in the ass........but again after 10 years or so its all they know so its acceptable. Its a life.

Those on death Row do NOT get put into General Population . They spend their days in a 6x8 box day after day waiting to die. Most have stacks of legal papers higher then the ceiling and they spend their days trying to save their own necks like the cowards they are. After 10 years on death row they want to die. When was the last time you heard of a condemned person being forcefully dragged to the table? They want it over. They die slowly everyday and are forced to confront what they have done. Then they have to actually see the families and loved ones as they leave this earth for the last time.

See the Difference?   Death Row is for the living . Not the dead. No one has the right to tell the family of a person who was killed that they can't at least get satisfaction of seeing the bastard suffer and die. Especially those that sitting in an armchair without the slightest inkling of what they are feeling . They will never be the same for the rest of their lives.........that bastard does not deserve to find another life. He needs to be forced to come to terms with what he has done. That's never a bad thing as far as I'm concerned

Clear enough?

Just a wild guess.  You're the only one who read both threads and didn't know what I was talking about.