Brady Quinn over Ted Ginn plus Cam Cameron's incompetence

[DolFan619]

  Yep.  This thread has definately run it's course.  It's time for this thread to die.

[Philly Fin Fan]

  Yep.  This thread has definately run it's course.  It's time for this thread to die.

Nope. We're going to let it run for 18 more pages or else people will bitch about it.

[Dphins4me]

You have to be kidding me. Ok try answering these question's, let's look at his rookie season.
1.Did Ginn return KR and punts from day one of the season ?
2.Did Ginn play on the field as a wide receiver from day one ?
3. Where on the depth chart was Ginn in KR and Punt returns ?
4.Where on the depth chart was Ginn listed as a wide receiver ?

  HE WAS A ROOKIE!!


   I would think people who follow football like some claim they do here, then they would know that a high majority of rookie Wr do not start from day one.  Not even top 10 picks.  Rule of thumb it takes a Wr 2 years before they get adjusted to the NFL.  That is why you see a 3rd Yr breakout list for Wr every year in Fantasy Football leagues.   


Would it have made you guys feel better had Ginn not excelled as a returner and sat on the bench until he was up to speed as a Wr?

[simeon]

  HE WAS A ROOKIE!!


   I would think people who follow football like some claim they do here, then they would know that a high majority of rookie Wr do not start from day one.  Not even top 10 picks.  Rule of thumb it takes a Wr 2 years before they get adjusted to the NFL.  That is why you see a 3rd Yr breakout list for Wr every year in Fantasy Football leagues.   

Wr drafted early in first round do start from day one. Cameron drafted Ginn because of his special team play, plain and simple.
Dwayne Bowe from Kansas City who easily outshinned Ginn was drafted 24th pick in the first round and played all 16 games as a starter and HE WAS A ROOKIE.
What about Calvin Johnson too ?
You question if people watch football but yet you can't notice rookie wide receivers drafted in the first round often get a starting job.

[TEKGOD]

Wr drafted early in first round do start from day one. Cameron drafted Ginn because of his special team play, plain and simple.
Dwayne Bowe from Kansas City who easily outshinned Ginn was drafted 24th pick in the first round and played all 16 games as a starter and HE WAS A ROOKIE.
What about Calvin Johnson too ?
You question if people watch football but yet you can't notice rookie wide receivers drafted in the first round often get a starting job.

Great post Simeon, unfortunately logic & reasoning won't work with the Ginn lovers. For them Cameron & Ginn can do no wrong & picking a KR coming off an injury at #9 with as many holes as Miami has was a great choice. Nevermind that Akambi Okoye was still on the board, who fell to the Texans & garnered them 4 sacks in his 1st month, or Patrick Willis, who ummmm only got DRPOY & made the Pro Bowl his 1st year with San Fran, then of course there's Quinn. Maybe it will take a couple of years for it to sink in with them, that while other teams chose perennial pro bowlers to their roster we chose this generations Randall Hill.

[Dphins4me]

Wr drafted early in first round do start from day one. Cameron drafted Ginn because of his special team play, plain and simple.
Dwayne Bowe from Kansas City who easily outshinned Ginn was drafted 24th pick in the first round and played all 16 games as a starter and HE WAS A ROOKIE.
What about Calvin Johnson too ?
You question if people watch football but yet you can't notice rookie wide receivers drafted in the first round often get a starting job.

Bowe did not start from day 1 & did not start all 16 games.  He did not start Wk 1.  CJ did not start Wk. 1 either.   Bowe & CJ were also more NFL ready & which was information readily available to fans in most draft publications & on NFL/ESPN shows.  Bowe's upside was not as good as CJ or Ginn.  Bowe was thought to be about as good as he was ever going to be.  That is just how they viewed his talents.  Now, we do not know if they judged him correctly.

It was well known that Ginn was far more raw as a Wr than the others & would take more time to get up to NFL speed. The NFL draft is not about getting someone that can come in & help you the following year.  Its about down the road, regardless of what Mel Kiper says how much they can help.  Fans anymore think rookies should come into the NFL & be wonderful right out of the gates.  Some do it more quickly than others, but it does not mean the ones that take longer will not be quality players in a year or two.  Bowe had a great rookie year.  Now, is that because he is that good or just had a great rookie year ( Micheal Clayton )  Rookie year is generally a year of adjustment.  Players make huge strides between their rookie & 2nd year. 

Sure, the fact Ginn could help out on ST while learning the Wr job had to be a factor, but he had to be projected as a Wr who could be a quality Wr before they ever would have spent a No. 1 on him.  If he were simply viewed as a returner then he would not have been drafted in Rd. 1 at all.

There is a difference between watching football & understand it.  I question the understanding of things, not the simple viewing of a game.  Fans that simply watch call rookies bust a game or two into their careers.

[Dphins4me]

Great post Simeon, unfortunately logic & reasoning won't work with the Ginn lovers. For them Cameron & Ginn can do no wrong & picking a KR coming off an injury at #9 with as many holes as Miami has was a great choice. Nevermind that Akambi Okoye was still on the board, who fell to the Texans & garnered them 4 sacks in his 1st month, or Patrick Willis, who ummmm only got DRPOY & made the Pro Bowl his 1st year with San Fran, then of course there's Quinn. Maybe it will take a couple of years for it to sink in with them, that while other teams chose perennial pro bowlers to their roster we chose this generations Randall Hill.

If you would stop with the Ginn lover BS, then your opinion might be more valuable.  No one here is in love with Ginn & believes he was the player without doubt Miami should have drafted.

 No one is arguing that Miami might should have consider Willis or Okoye.  I personally wanted Okoye & in no way shape or form wanted Ginn. Ginn was about the only player I was 100% against Miami drafting.   However, as I posted before.  I watched Ginn & put my opinion of him aside & he showed promise as a Wr & believe as he learns more will be a valuable Wr for Miami.

Just pointing out.  Great rookie years does not mean great careers.

One thing if Ginn turns into a PB will you have the backbone to post that he was a good pick?  or will you still say he is just a KR?

[raptorsfan29]

Is there any chance we can stop dwelling on the past and look toward the future?

Who really cares why he got drafted anyways, hes on the team now, and thats the important part.

[simeon]

Bowe did not start from day 1 & did not start all 16 games.  He did not start Wk 1.  CJ did not start Wk. 1 either.   Bowe & CJ were also more NFL ready & which was information readily available to fans in most draft publications & on NFL/ESPN shows.  Bowe's upside was not as good as CJ or Ginn.  Bowe was thought to be about as good as he was ever going to be.  That is just how they viewed his talents.  Now, we do not know if they judged him correctly.

It was well known that Ginn was far more raw as a Wr than the others & would take more time to get up to NFL speed. The NFL draft is not about getting someone that can come in & help you the following year.  Its about down the road, regardless of what Mel Kiper says how much they can help.  Fans anymore think rookies should come into the NFL & be wonderful right out of the gates.  Some do it more quickly than others, but it does not mean the ones that take longer will not be quality players in a year or two.  Bowe had a great rookie year.  Now, is that because he is that good or just had a great rookie year ( Micheal Clayton )  Rookie year is generally a year of adjustment.  Players make huge strides between their rookie & 2nd year. 

Sure, the fact Ginn could help out on ST while learning the Wr job had to be a factor, but he had to be projected as a Wr who could be a quality Wr before they ever would have spent a No. 1 on him.  If he were simply viewed as a returner then he would not have been drafted in Rd. 1 at all.

There is a difference between watching football & understand it.  I question the understanding of things, not the simple viewing of a game.  Fans that simply watch call rookies bust a game or two into their careers.

Do your home work!!
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-msgr&p=Dwayne%20Bowe&type=
Dwayne Bowe played all 16 games  70 catches for 995 yards with 5 TD's.
nothing personal here but I most likely been watching and understanding football longer then you, over all Ginn's rookie season was a bust!!! But all is forgiven after all he was cursed by Cameron, it's not his fault Cameron was a moron and picked him. With many players more worthy to pick we chose a KR, stupid move but hey it was Cameron's idea.
Now he has a clean slate to go and prove you right and the majority of us wrong, if I was a betting man I would wager he will not prove us wrong. Many people on here except you understand Ginn is a KR, and should never been drafted by Miami, then again you claim your vast knowledge of football is so much more then ours. When this season ends we will see where you are on this subject.

[TEKGOD]

The NFL draft is not about getting someone that can come in & help you the following year.  Its about down the road, regardless of what Mel Kiper says how much they can help. 

WRRRRROOOONNNNGG again. When you are in rebuilding mode which MIA clearly is then your 1st round pick needs to be an immediate impact player, not a luxury pick. Ive stated before & I will state again, Ginn wouldve been a nice pick for say, Indy or NE where he can run free in open space as a slot receiver or KR as Welker does for the Pats. But those teams already had their more important positions addressed, MIA has holes all over the place - & instead of going for the jugular Cam addressed a secondary skill position. This is the point youve failed to address as if Ginn making the Pro Bowl is important. He was a reach because we passed up higher talent at more critical positions  period.

[fyo]

Look, it's simple guys (on both sides):

You can either believe that either:

a) Cam Cameron and Randy Mueller were so incompetent that they drafted a punt returner with the 9th overall pick

or

b) Cam "we drafted the Ginn family" Cameron has absolutely no PR skills and no one to prepare statements for him.

Your choice. Pick whichever you think is the more plausible. Personally, I believe b) to be the more plausible, but, hey, whatever rocks your boat. We're obviously not going to get anywhere by discussing this further, though.

All that said, if anyone's interested, I dug up Cam's little post-Ginn-pick speech and transcribed it (minus intro and thank yous):

And let me tell you about a young man we just drafted.

There's a young man named Tedd Ginn. Tedd Ginn Jr.

And we drafted the Ginn family. I've known this family for over 10 years.

I watched this young man for a long time.

You're going to be thrilled every time you watch him as a punt returner.

Cause he's gonna be a great returner for us.

He's gonna to be a young man who's gonna wind up a great ... (interrupted by applause)

And let me put it to you this way ... (interrupted by chants of BRADY BRADY)

Let me tell you this: Tedd Ginn is a Miami Dolphin.

Tedd Ginn is someone that you're going to be proud of.

Tedd Ginn is... Tedd Ginn and his family will give us everything they have, I promise you that.

Tedd Ginn is gonna be someone that you're going to enjoy watching play for a long, long time as a Miami Dolphin.

I would say this: We're gonna put together a draft class, and again, it's nice to be able to step out of the draft room for a few minutes and I'm gonna hustle back in because we've got again... we got some more picks coming up.

But you're going to see a tremendous draft class put together.

And it's a draft class that's gonna to make you proud.

And it's someone that you're going to be proud of to say that they're part of the Miami Dolphin family.

[Dphins4me]

Is there any chance we can stop dwelling on the past and look toward the future?

Who really cares why he got drafted anyways, hes on the team now, and thats the important part.

  I agree, but it is the offseason & the things to actually discuss are limited.

[Dphins4me]

Do your home work!!

How about stop changing the parameters. ( Check your previous post )

  You said Bowe played in every game as a starter, which is what I replied to.  Now you are saying he played in every game, which is correct, but it does not change the fact you previously stated he started every game.

nothing personal here but I most likely been watching and understanding football longer then you,

  My daddy can beat up your daddy.

over all Ginn's rookie season was a bust!!! But all is forgiven after all he was cursed by Cameron, it's not his fault Cameron was a moron and picked him. With many players more worthy to pick we chose a KR, stupid move but hey it was Cameron's idea.

  No more of a bust of a year than Calvin Johnson.  However, I doubt anyone here would be upset with Johnson’s production in his rookie year & the fact he was injury prone in it.

Do you think CJ is as good as he is going to get? 

Now he has a clean slate to go and prove you right and the majority of us wrong, if I was a betting man I would wager he will not prove us wrong.

  There is nothing to prove me right or wrong about.  My point in all of this is that he was not drafted just as a KR.  Now, he may end up being a bust at Wr.  However, being a bust at the Wr spot is nothing new for even college stud Wr, much less raw college Wr.

Many people on here except you understand Ginn is a KR, and should never been drafted by Miami, then again you claim your vast knowledge of football is so much more then ours. When this season ends we will see where you are on this subject.

Many people hate Ginn simply because he was not Brady Quinn.

Find where I claim my knowledge was vast.

Find where I have said Miami was correct in the drafting of Ginn.

I’ll save you the trouble.  You cannot.

As I put it earlier which no one replied.  Would it have made any of you happier had Ginn not been able to return kicks?

At the end of the season odds are we will know a touch more, but no enough.  If Ginn has a quality season then we still will not know if he is for real. If he has an average season, then as I’ve pointed out before it is a well know fact that the majority of Wr have a 2 year period before they are up to speed.

[Dphins4me]

WRRRRROOOONNNNGG again. When you are in rebuilding mode which MIA clearly is then your 1st round pick needs to be an immediate impact player, not a luxury pick.

What impact did Russell have for the Raiders?  What impact did the injury prone CJ have for the Lions his rookie year?  What impact did Gaines Adams have? What impact did Jammal Anderson have for the Falcons?  All drafted before Ginn. 

Do I need to go back to older drafts to point out the unproductive of some others rookie years?

Ive stated before & I will state again, Ginn wouldve been a nice pick for say, Indy or NE where he can run free in open space as a slot receiver or KR as Welker does for the Pats.

  Be great if he actually played slot.  Ginn is not an over the middle type Wr.

But those teams already had their more important positions addressed, MIA has holes all over the place - & instead of going for the jugular Cam addressed a secondary skill position. This is the point youve failed to address as if Ginn making the Pro Bowl is important. He was a reach because we passed up higher talent at more critical positions  period.

  What higher talent?  or faster impact?  Two different things.

Being the fastest out of the gate, does not mean you are the best. 

My point is simply give Ginn a chance, before declaring him a bust or a simple KR.  Should Miami have taken someone else?  You bet. 

  However, that does not mean Ginn cannot be a quality player.  Right now Willis looks like Miami missed out.  However, this coming year he could be a total bust because of some reason like he thinks he does not have to work hard.

Lets remember Micheal Clayton put up 1100 Yds. his rookie year & in the 3 years since not total 1100.