Socialized Health Care Thoughts

[Dphins4me]

You are giving some solutions (although some I find extremely poor), but at least they're there.  ...mostly through education and changes to the insurance structure.  Who makes those changes?  Without government involvement, you can't force that change on businesses, and they won't just do it themselves.  Who pays for the education you're describing?  Who sets the standards for such education?

  Change is coming.  Businesses will be changing HC especially with what is going on.  I do not get asking people to take an interest in their health is a poor solution, but providing them care is the best solution.  Its like saying.  Here continue to do what makes you sick & we will pick up the tab for your self induced health issues.

My company is doing it.   We get a $600 dollar credit towards our HC with involvement in a health program.  They send out daily Emails on health & have a website set up for us to find out where aliments come from.  What are the driving forces of triglycerides would be an example.

[Dave Gray]

I lack your optimism that this is just going to happen on its own by "telling people".

Although, health programs, like the one at your work seem like a good idea.  I don't see why that's something that couldn't be done with a government run health care system.

Unfortunately, I think your solution is just wishful thinking.  How long are you thinking this change will take to happen?  I'll be checking back on you.

[Spider-Dan]

So basically because people are not interested in their own health we cater & take care of them?

Almost, but not quite.

We take care of people because:

1) Americans deserve to have quality healthcare regardless of their income
2) The current system only takes care of those who are well-off enough to afford healthcare insurance (and then, only if they don't get seriously sick)

My original post was how do you think Gov provided HC should work?  How should it.    Did you ever give how you think it should work?  Which is what I was wanting.

I think it will work in a manner vastly superior to our current system.

As for the exact details, it is a disservice to imagine that any of us are going to describe all the intricacies of a national health plan in the space of a few posts.  The broad strokes:

- all citizens have access to gov't funded healthcare, without "pre-existing condition" exceptions or coverage caps
- this is accomplished through a single-payer system (a gov't health insurance "company"), not nationalizing the medical industry
- private insurance will still be available to those who wish to purchase it

Essentially, a system somewhat similar to that of our public schools; you can send your kids to a private school if you want, but no one will be denied an education based on lack of ability to pay.  The same would go for a health plan.

[Buddhagirl]

  We cannot take care of everyone because they come from a bad gene pool. 

Wow...Nice to know that I come from a "bad gene pool" and therefore don't deserve affordable health care. I really hope that no one in your family gets sick, because I don't think you're really prepared to face that challenge.

[MaineDolFan]

Dphins4me - you have asked over and over to not insult you and just have dialog.  I respect that and want to address that upfront before making this statement so it's very clear that I am not attacking and / or judging you. 

I remember a post a while back where you spoke about putting certain things into your body, not eating any type of animal product, things having to be organic.  A diet that some (correct or not) would view as a little extreme.  You're talking about health care but the subject keeps veering off to how people take care of themselves (I understand the connection).  One has to wonder how much of this is a personally driven agenda?

I happen to agree that a huge majority of the population in this country is lazy.  The obesity is off the charts.  I thought maybe you might want to speak about that as it seems that you're holding back a little bit? 

Basically - you seem to have a very firm grasp between what you'll put in your mouth as a direct result of how your body will process it and, in the end, how it alters your health.  I actually respect that a lot.  I would think that those thoughts HAVE to tie in with your opinions?

[bsmooth]

Insurance Comp have already started.  If you are not taking care of yourself, then you pay more for your care.  Some States ( Alabama ) put a " Obesity Penalty " in their plan.  

You start with hitting people in their wallets, because the sad fact is that is the only thing people pay attention to.  Hit them hard enough & they will make changes or learn to live with less money.  Provide them with the information they need to get healthy. Majority will change in time.  Once you get off soda's, fast food they do not taste nearly as good as they use to.  Your taste buds change & stop getting use to the sodium & sugar in processed foods.

As insurance rates come down then the people who cannot get HC will be able to purchase it.  IMO.

How are they basing their decisions on what is obese? The BMI is a joke and very inaccurate. Calipers have a significant +/- margin, and I would hate to have to pay more because I was on the wrong side of an error margin.

    We cannot take care of everyone because they come from a bad gene pool.

The pool of people who do not practice unhealthy habits and suffer from genetic diseases would not be that big. It must be nice to come from a family line that does not have a history of disease even if you take precautions.

[Dphins4me]

I lack your optimism that this is just going to happen on its own by "telling people".

Although, health programs, like the one at your work seem like a good idea.  I don't see why that's something that couldn't be done with a government run health care system.

Unfortunately, I think your solution is just wishful thinking.  How long are you thinking this change will take to happen?  I'll be checking back on you.

Oh it will not happen.  Why?  For the same reasons seen here.  We are to interested in feeding someone instead of feeding them first to get them started & then helping them feed themselves.  So they become self sufficient.   Why work when you do not have to provide for yourself & the Gov is providing everything for you.  Ever heard of the woman Sharon Jasper?  Google the name.

The problem when it comes to Gov HC is simple.  It is/will be simply a devise to garner votes.  This is not about helping Americans.  Its about thinking you are helping them so they will vote for you.   

Example.  Obama says he is not raising taxes on low & middle class.  Wrong.  He is not raising income taxes on low & middle class.  He is raising the taxes on the items they use ( Energy ).  Its a magicians tick. ( slight of hand ) He is giving or not taking money in one hand, but turning around & taking it with his other hand.  They know majority of the public pays no attention to any other tax besides income & some times sales.  Heck I bet you 99% of Americans do not know how much they pay in taxes with each gallon of gas they use.

Truthfully & I've made this point several times.  I do not have a problem with Gov HC for a transition periods as I do not have a problem with Gov assistance ( money ) for the same transition periods. Guy I work with in order to save his family had to quit his higher paying job to move back home so he & his wife would make it & stay together as a family.  Had 3 kids. She refused to move to Knoxville.  He had to pay $1200 a month for 3 months ( while not having a job ) until he found another job ( Not with my company )

Do not have a problem with the Gov covering them for that 3 months.  I have a serious problem with just simply providing people with life time coverage.   I know the percentages of people without HC.  I do not know the true percentage because as RTW post.  A high majority are young people who can, but do not take it.

The ones for it are playing the bleeding heart story of no one should be without HC. Its sad no doubt.   Guys if you haven't noticed America is broke.  We are continually going to China for money.  ( Which is a major concern for me, but that is another thread ) 

As with another co-worker.  He ran up 12K on a credit card.  When I ask how.  He said he borrowed some money to help a family member out.  Not sure how much, but my reply was outside of your mom/dad ( Dads been on disability since my co-worker was a child, but still able to go 3 wheelin & do home repairs on the side ) if you are borrowing the money to help someone out.  You do not have it to give.

 I do not see how America can afford Gov funded HC.  We as a county do not have the facilities much less the cash to allow people to run to the doctor at will.  So getting an appointment will not be quick when you throw another 47 million into the pot.    Then the cost of going to the doctor will go up, which will increase the cost on Gov..   The cash to cover it is simply not there.

Again I do not have a problem with covering children as I've stated in many threads.  Kids need to have a chance to be a productive member of this country.

As I pointed out earlier with another co-worker.  Its 6 months & he still is trying to get the Gov to cover his schooling from 6 months ago.  6 months & you guys seem to think the HC will be quick & easy?  I simply do not get that.

Also, its obvious that Obama's plans are not helping the stock market ( But that to is another thread )

[Dphins4me]

Almost, but not quite.

We take care of people because:

1) Americans deserve to have quality healthcare regardless of their income
2) The current system only takes care of those who are well-off enough to afford healthcare insurance (and then, only if they don't get seriously sick)

This is where we differ.  Americans deserve freedom & opportunity.  What they do with it is their choice.

As I just post.  Where is this money coming from.  We are a trillion dollars in debt already & planning to spend more.  The money is not there & neither or the facilities to with stand 47 million more people

Providing HC for everyone sounds nice, but lets be real.  Where are these two things going to come from?

I think it will work in a manner vastly superior to our current system.

As far as coverage.  I agree.  As far as other things.  We disagree.

As for the exact details, it is a disservice to imagine that any of us are going to describe all the intricacies of a national health plan in the space of a few posts.  The broad strokes:

You nut shelled it & that is all we can do.

- all citizens have access to gov't funded healthcare, without "pre-existing condition" exceptions or coverage caps

Budda made this point.  Maybe & I do not know how the but maybe the Gov helps pay when the cost exceeds their coverage so families do not go broke because of illness..( See I'm not a bad guy ) Which I do believe the Gov. helps increase those cost in things like cancer.  ( Side note:  I believe they know more about it than they are telling us )

- this is accomplished through a single-payer system (a gov't health insurance "company"), not nationalizing the medical industry

Ok.  Would you not expect cost to increase with the demands of another 47 million?  I believe it will & the Gov will step in and nationalize the medical industry.

- private insurance will still be available to those who wish to purchase it

So back to the haves & have nots.  The rich will be able to buy better & get faster service because of the last of paper work, as the rest of use deal with Gov.

Essentially, a system somewhat similar to that of our public schools; you can send your kids to a private school if you want, but no one will be denied an education based on lack of ability to pay.  The same would go for a health plan.

  Which is still the haves & have nots.  Rich are able to afford better private schools, while the rest of us deal with public education, which we already know is not working.

[Dphins4me]

Wow...Nice to know that I come from a "bad gene pool" and therefore don't deserve affordable health care. I really hope that no one in your family gets sick, because I don't think you're really prepared to face that challenge.

  Never said you do & no one said you do not deserve HC.  You do not deserve HC because of your aliment either.

 My family history is gall bladders.  Most of us do have some family history to deal with.

[bsfins]

I'm not gonna read through all the dribble,so excuse me if this has been mentioned...

Perhaps make all the general Doctors,federal employees,take the Doctors costs,out of the healthcare system...Have them rated and reviewed each year, for pay increases etc,etc....Hopefuly with full transparency,so we can tell which doctors have bad track records of mistakes....Just an idea...

I have no healthcare,and after what I deal with my my Mom it doesn't seem like having insurance does any good....I'm still paying through the nose for shitty care...I'm all for it being run by the government....

I know too many people that run to the doctor for every little headache,cough,sneeze and bruise....I think there should be a cap on who gets free healthcare, say 50 grand,then you pay a percentage of the cost the more you make,the more you pay...I think to help curb the abuse of free healthcare,I think if the doctor feels it's frivolous,the patient should pay for the care....Maybe limit the number of doctors visits for initial diagnosis....

Just all Ideas....

Would socialized medicine cover eye care,and dentists?

[Spider-Dan]

The problem when it comes to Gov HC is simple.  It is/will be simply a devise to garner votes.  This is not about helping Americans.  Its about thinking you are helping them so they will vote for you.   

If my politicians can "trick" me into voting for them by passing laws that benefit me, I'm all for it.  I'm not sure how else you think representative gov't is supposed to work.

I have a serious problem with just simply providing people with life time coverage.   I know the percentages of people without HC.  I do not know the true percentage because as RTW post.  A high majority are young people who can, but do not take it.

Then those are people who do not have health insurance.  If I have the opportunity to buy healthcare insurance at some prohibitively expensive price, and I choose not to do it, then you think I shouldn't count as a person without insurance?

Going by the figures RTW cited, Canadians pay ~1% of their income towards their national healthcare plan.  I pay over 10% of my gross paycheck for my healthcare plan... and I have a hell of a lot less coverage than any Canadian.  Our current system is a joke.

The ones for it are playing the bleeding heart story of no one should be without HC. Its sad no doubt.   Guys if you haven't noticed America is broke.  We are continually going to China for money.  ( Which is a major concern for me, but that is another thread )

Latent calls for a newfound sense of fiscal responsibility fall on deaf ears.  I do not accept that it is perfectly okay to spend money we don't have on foreign wars, but when it comes to actually helping our citizens, somehow fiscal policy must be maintained above all.

This is where we differ.  Americans deserve freedom & opportunity.  What they do with it is their choice.

I do not consider the freedom to be sick, or the freedom to amass overwhelming healthcare debt, to be worthwhile, desirable freedoms.

Fundamentally, I see providing healthcare for every citizen as more important to their ability to actually realize their freedom than a slight tax break, or some abstract concept of personal liberty.  Healthcare costs greatly curtail the actual freedom of too many Americans.

Ok.  Would you not expect cost to increase with the demands of another 47 million?  I believe it will & the Gov will step in and nationalize the medical industry.

What exactly do you mean by "increased cost"?

I can envision no circumstance in which the medical industry is nationalized.

So back to the haves & have nots.  The rich will be able to buy better & get faster service because of the last of paper work, as the rest of use deal with Gov.

...

This is how it works right now!  The haves can already buy better and faster service!

The only difference is that instead of the have nots getting nothing, they have access to the basic healthcare they need.

[Spider-Dan]

Perhaps make all the general Doctors,federal employees,take the Doctors costs,out of the healthcare system...Have them rated and reviewed each year, for pay increases etc,etc....Hopefuly with full transparency,so we can tell which doctors have bad track records of mistakes....Just an idea...

Under the British system, doctors earn bonuses based on their ability to reduce the health problems (cholesterol, blood pressure, etc.) of their patients.

I know too many people that run to the doctor for every little headache,cough,sneeze and bruise....

Would you complain about people who take their car to the mechanic for "every little problem"?

A free national healthcare program encourages people to use it.  This is a good thing.  The more often patients visit with their doctors, the more likely it is that problems can be resolved early on.  If you visit a doctor because you're wheezing and are frequently short of breath, it's easier to treat a sickness in the early stages than if you wait until you are bedridden and can barely breathe.

Would socialized medicine cover eye care,and dentists?

Again, for purposes of clarity and correct terminology, we're talking about a single-payer system (gov't insurance), not socialized medicine (gov't doctors).  But yes, I believe dental and vision would be covered.

[Dphins4me]

Dphins4me - you have asked over and over to not insult you and just have dialog.  I respect that and want to address that upfront before making this statement so it's very clear that I am not attacking and / or judging you. 

Cool.  There is no need to insult here.  We ( the posters ) disagree on several things.  To get personal destroyed the thread.  I do not dislike anyone because of their politics.  I'm training a guy right now that is a Dem.  We talk this stuff all the time.  He provide me views I've not thought of & I do the same.

I remember a post a while back where you spoke about putting certain things into your body, not eating any type of animal product, things having to be organic.  A diet that some (correct or not) would view as a little extreme.  You're talking about health care but the subject keeps veering off to how people take care of themselves (I understand the connection).  One has to wonder how much of this is a personally driven agenda?

  First off I'm not a vegetarian.  I love my meat.  Generally chicken & fish.  Red meats are not a major part of my diet, but I still eat it about once a week.  So if I ever posted no animal products then I truly would not know why.  However, I have no problem with eating animal products. ( I do not drink milk )

I do not believe you have to eat organic.  It does help IMO.  I buy organic on certain high pesticide products.  ( Peppers, apples, peaches, celery. potatoes ) are a few off the top of my head.  I do not buy organic cucumbers.   

Second.  Not really sure on the personal agenda question.  Can you expand on that if this does not answer you question.  I like to help people ( Believe or not, I do  ) I do not like seeing people I know feel bad every day. I see my co-workers sit around all day stuffing their face with cheeseburger & fries & loads of sodas & candy.  Everything they eat is high fat, high calories, low nutritional.  I like these guys know their families.  I know the odds are they will not make it to see their families grow up or grow old with their wife.  One guy just took on his grandchildren ages 5 & 8 because his step-daughter is a PoS.  He is 50.  His wife does not work.  He is needed in his household.  However he is carrying ~75 Lbs in his chest & around his heart. You see him from behind & you cannot tell he is obese.  Just about all of them make fun of the way I eat & think I'm trying to live to be 125.  As I tell them.  Its not about longevity, but quality of life.  Same story I've told here.

  My left hand use to shake constantly ( fibro ) & I was on a prescription for it.  It went away when I started eating better & changed my household cleaning agents.   People roll their eyes at such claims.  Why?  Because green cleaning products might cost .50 more & you might have to use a little more elbow grease.

Most of them say, well I'll just die.  My reply. If you are lucky, you will just die.

   They have huge guts & majority of them feel poorly in general & sit around passing gas at will ( Not normal ).  When you are carrying 75 to 100 Lbs more on your body, its take a toll.  If you do not believe me simply pick up a 50 lb bag & strap it on your back. See how long you can carry it around.   If you can do it all day, I'd be surprise.  Now just imagine if you had no choice to put it down. 

 I do have an agenda, but I gain nothing from my agenda other than knowing I have helped someone.   I'm not out here financially gaining from someone eating better.  I think people would be amazed at how great they would feel if they simply ate better & doing it for a week is not going to work. It takes time.  I'd bet anyone that if they would stop eating/drinking sugar & only drank good water for 3 months & then tried to drink a soft drink that it would only take one drink for them to throw it away because it is just to dang sweet ( Remember 9 teaspoons in an 8 Oz serving ).

Its not a cure all for everything that ails us.. You can do all this & still end up with a problem.  However, you will have beaten the odds the wrong way.   I hear eating organic is expensive.  Well so is cancer.  Will you get cancer by not eating organic.  I do not believe so.  Just wash the stuff really good before eating it.  I use a Veggie Wash product. 

Co-worker continuously say I cannot afford to eat like you do.  How much did you pay for that burger/fries/drink.  $6 bucks.  I've got $2 in this piece of chicken & the spices are cheap.  Probably about .50 in my veggies.  My water is .78 cents a gallon & you cannot afford to eat like me?  I can't afford to eat like you. 

It takes about 20 minutes to cook a good meal.  No one can tell me they do not have the time on a every day basis to do that.  However, its simply to easy to run through a fast food place to grab a quick meal or buy a frozen dinner or something you just heat up in the oven.  I use to live that life.

I happen to agree that a huge majority of the population in this country is lazy.  The obesity is off the charts.  I thought maybe you might want to speak about that as it seems that you're holding back a little bit? 

Speak in what why?   I hear from people.  My grandfather ate sausage & eggs every morning & he lived to be 87.  Well, what did your grandfather do all day.  He work from dust till dawn on a farm.  You are doing what?  Sitting behind a desk?  Slight difference.  BTW Eggs are really great for you.  Just not everyday.

Basically - you seem to have a very firm grasp between what you'll put in your mouth as a direct result of how your body will process it and, in the end, how it alters your health.  I actually respect that a lot.  I would think that those thoughts HAVE to tie in with your opinions?

  I'm sure it does.    Since I reference my co-workers.  They sit around & talk about the cost of HC.  Saying they need to do something about it.  My question to them.  What are you doing about your health?  No reply.  I ask. Whys hould they do something about HC cost, when you are not interested in doing something for yourself to help control those cost?  No reply.  They leave the room saying.  We I do not know what the answer is.   They just want someone else to pay for them to eat poorly, not exercise.

We have workout equipment ( Cardio ) for our use during work.  I'm the only one who uses it.  3 O'clock in the morning I'm in there working out.  The rest, if nothing is going on.  Sleeping or playing on the computer.

Sorry, for rambling some.  If not what you were looking for simply expand on the question.   I was not sure of what you were looking for.

[Dphins4me]

How are they basing their decisions on what is obese? The BMI is a joke and very inaccurate. Calipers have a significant +/- margin, and I would hate to have to pay more because I was on the wrong side of an error margin.

Not read their plan, so I cannot speak to it.  I just know they are doing it.

The pool of people who do not practice unhealthy habits and suffer from genetic diseases would not be that big. It must be nice to come from a family line that does not have a history of disease even if you take precautions.

  I agree & I do not.  My sister has had far more trouble than I.  However, she abused her body for to long.  She is in the process of changing though & feeling better.

 When I started having problems is when I took action & woke up to what was going on & started putting quality food into my body.  Over the course of a few years I was able to drop all of my prescriptions, saving me $60 to 80 a month.  I spend about $40 -50 a month on organic items & green cleaners.

[MaineDolFan]

Sorry, for rambling some.  If not what you were looking for simply expand on the question.   I was not sure of what you were looking for.

Excellent response, thank you for taking the time to put that out there for me.  That answers my questions completely.  I also enjoy the fact that you think about using any product, I wish I had your discipline.

I would love to discuss your fibro diagnosis and responses to treatment some day (whole new topic).

Thanks again, good post.