Chiropractors

[fyo]

If you're interested in acupuncture, I've linked to some Cochrane Reviews below. I've snipped A PORTION of the conclusion, but there's more and I don't guarantee that the part I cited is representative of the full text. Go read it yourself, if you're interested . There's a nice little summary in a blue box on each page which do a much better job than the one or two sentences provided by me. Seriously, go read the source.

For shoulder pain:
source: http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005319.html
conclusion: The improvements with acupuncture for pain and function were about the same as the effects of receiving a fake therapy for 2 to 4 weeks. [...] There is not enough evidence to say whether acupuncture works to treat shoulder pain or whether it is harmful.

For migraines:
source: http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001218.html
conclusion: Collectively, the studies suggest that migraine patients benefit from acupuncture, although the correct placement of needles seems to be less relevant than is usually thought by acupuncturists.

For low back pain:
Source: http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001351.html
Conclusion: For chronic low-back pain, results show that acupuncture is more effective for pain relief than no treatment or sham treatment. [...] Acupuncture is not more effective than other conventional and "alternative" treatments.

For tension-type headaches:
Source: http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab007587.html
Conclusion: Three of the four trials in which acupuncture was compared to physiotherapy, massage or relaxation had important methodological shortcomings. [...] In conclusion, the available evidence suggests that acupuncture could be a valuable option for patients suffering from frequent tension-type headache.

[Brian Fein]

I have a feeling that this thread is far too ideological for me, but, here it goes...

By and large, I believe the profession of chiropractics to be complete and utter bullshit. 

I don't want to spout off about chiropractics, since I admittedly don't know a ton about it. 

I firmly believe that these two statements go hand-in-hand.  It may be that your layman's view of the science makes you skeptical, and perhaps her guidance, explanation, and clarification could change your idea on the work as a whole.

However, regardless of your thoughts of her profession, if you want to help her you should because she's your friend.  Maybe she thinks web site marketing is a bunch of black magic mumbo jumbo that people pay up the nose for and there's really no basis to it.  But, I'm sure you could help her understand otherwise.

(and don't even say its not the same thing.  Its exactly the same thing)

I don't think you should approach her out of nowhere unless its a "hey let me help you with your business" sense.

[Dave Gray]

(and don't even say its not the same thing.  Its exactly the same thing)

Uh....no.  It's not even remotely similar.

Web Marketing is proven to be effective.  It passes the scientific method.  If you have a sizable number of websites that are receiving "proper" internet marketing, they will consistently perform better than a) websites that are incorrectly marketed or b) websites that are not marketed at all.

As for chiropractics, let me clarify -- I think that there probably are some benefits to certain aspects of treatments.  But, as to the claims as to why this stuff helps reduce pain or some of the other things that they claim that it treats, without the proper evidence to support it in a medical sense.  When I say I don't know a ton about chiropractics, I'm talking about the specifics of the treatments.  ...but then again, the burden of proof isn't on me (the patient).

[Buddhagirl]

I'm going to see my chiro today. :-)

[Brian Fein]

You don't know the specifics, so how can you make an educated judgment on their medical validity?  People go to the Chiropractor, and they feel better when they come out.  Consistently.  Yet you write that off as the placebo effect.

If you ask me, the placebo effect is bullshit.  There's no such thing.  People don't magically feel better because they think they do, its because the doctor moved something, did something, whatever, to make them feel better. 

Just cause you don't understand it doesn't mean it isn't valid.

[Sunstroke]

If you ask me, the placebo effect is bullshit.  There's no such thing.  People don't magically feel better because they think they do, its because the doctor moved something, did something, whatever, to make them feel better. 

Unless you tell me you have a pretty solid background in neurochemistry, those claims come across as a wee bit off the cuff.  The effect of placebos is well documented, and has been since Dr. Beecher launched all of his independent studies way back in the 50's. I am not a neurochemical expert by any stretch (either), but the placebo effect, and the mind's ability to affect the body's other systems without any outside chemical stimuli, was referenced in my behavioral psych classes. The mind can do soooo much, and sometimes, all it needs to make something happen is to believe that something is happening.

[Dave Gray]

If you ask me, the placebo effect is bullshit.  There's no such thing.  People don't magically feel better because they think they do, its because the doctor moved something, did something, whatever, to make them feel better.

Wrong.

The placebo effect is proven fact.

[Brian Fein]

Chiropractors make people feel better. 

That is also a fact.

But somehow we are OK to pick and choose which facts we want to "believe" and which are BS?

I see...

[Dave Gray]

I'm not disputing that chiropractors make some people feel better.  I just question if the chiropractors' claims hold up under scientific scrutiny.  I think that's a fair concern to demand evidence when talking about medical treatment.  Chiropractics have delivered in some of those areas, but have not in other areas.

That doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.

[Brian Fein]

No, not unreasonable, and granted I've done zero research on the subject, but there IS science behind the profession, because not any old joe schmoe can walk up and open up a chiropractic clinic.  You need to be a doctor.

My thought is that, if you were to learn what those doctors have learned, you might have a different opinion of the profession.  That's all.

I don't think that's unreasonable at all.

I shouldn't have jumped into this one.  As I said, too ideological for my tastes.

[StL FinFan]

Chiropractors do not go to medical school.   They are Doctors of Chiropractic, not MD's or DO's. 

Again I will say I do believe they have a place in pain management but not in the healing of disease, which is one of their claims.

[fyo]

If you ask me, the placebo effect is bullshit.  There's no such thing.  People don't magically feel better because they think they do, its because the doctor moved something, did something, whatever, to make them feel better. 

This discussion was going quite nicely until this... Sorry, but to claim that the placebo effect is bullshit is so incredibly ignorant, that I don't even know how to respond.

[Buddhagirl]

My hip and piriformis were hurting. I went to see the chiro. I feel better and am not nearly as freaked out about running my race on Sunday. That's all the proof that I need. And...my insurance pays for it.

[Brian Fein]

I love how everyone else gets to make outlandish claims about their random beliefs (or lack thereof), but when I post a hypothetical equivalent response, I get hammered for it.

[StL FinFan]

The placebo effect is has been studied and shown to exist.  It has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in it.