The Confederacy

[CF DolFan]

I followed up from another thread (Walmart) to read about Sons of Confederate Veterans and found these two things.  


1) the club rejects the notion that the Confederacy was fighting for slavery
and
2) the words from a  Confederate soldier Julius Howell who spoke of his time after he was captured. He addressed the Congress of the United States in Washington in 1944 at the old age of 98.

“I arose pretty early,” he says. “There were 20,000 of us there. I saw a flag pole, and a flag stopped halfway.”

...

“I stuck my head in a tent and said, 'Boys, there must be some big Yankee dead.’ ”

A guard told the men later that the president had been shot. Howell says he felt no hatred toward Lincoln, only kindness.

“We didn’t fight for the preservation or extension of slavery,” he says. “It was a great curse on this country that we had slavery. We fought for states’ rights, for states’ rights


I bring this up only because so many people see the Confederate flag as hate and racism. I've never seen anything in writing to show it is not until I had seen this. In fact it isn't just in writing, it is recorded.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Between 1781 and 1788 the American states experimented with a system of governing that had a very weak national government and strong state rights.  After much debate it was decided thru a fair and open democratic process that strong states rights and weak federal government would not work.  The American States than ratified the United States Constitution giving the federal government greater strength and weaking state independence.

In 1860 a Presidential election was held as prescribed by the Constitution of the United States of America which had almost a century earlier been agreed to by the states. 

The losers of this election disappointed that the candidate fairly lost the election decided to not honor the election but instead committed a series of acts of treason against the United States of America. 

In a long a bloody conflict the United States of America was able to force the traitors to end their treason against the United States of America. 

There is no difference between what these traitors did than what Timothy McVeigh did.  And there is no difference between paying tribute to these traitors than there is in paying tribute to McVeigh. 

Our great Constitution, which these traitors refused to respect, grants each person the right under the first amendment's freedom of speech the complete right to honor these traitors, just as the constitution give you the right to erect a monument honoring McVeigh. 

But honoring those traitors who committed treason and murder against the USA is no different than honoring McVeigh. 

[Sunstroke]

Not to play Devil's Advocate (though he is a paid commercial sponsor)... If I were an organization that wanted to nuke the world, and I realized that nuking the world would be an unpopular position to the rest of the world, the first thing I'd probably do is put a quote up on my site from someone who eloquently denounced the nuking of the world.

Just saying... If someone who is reputed to be a white supremacist talks about "it not being about race," I won't take his comments as gospel without a good bit of support.

[Phishfan]

Hoodie, you would have made a great Tory during the Revolution.

[StL FinFan]

I took a Civil War class and the first thing the teacher said was that the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about state's rights.  One issue of state's rights was slavery but there was a lot more to it than just slavery.  There is no way to know how people actually felt about race at that time.   Lincoln himself did not think blacks were equal to whites, but he did not think anyone should be a slave.

[Dave Gray]

Here's how I feel about it.  It doesn't matter what one person feels about the confederate flag.  Over the years, the symbol has been adopted by these segregation movements, and there's no turning back on it now.

I'm sure that many Nazis didn't believe that their party endorsed genocide, and they weren't inherently racist, but that symbol no longer means "national socialism" like perhaps it once did.  If someone tried to re-launch the Nazi party, saying that genocide was a perversion of beliefs, they'd be laughed off.

We've seen the same with an attempted resurgence of the KKK, in the name of white pride (like the NAACP for whites), as opposed to a racist organization.  ...but it just ain't happenin'.

Ultimately, when you look at the facts, the Confederacy was a traitorous group that was granted a full pardon, given that they surrendered unconditionally.  Given that they accepted, I feel it inappropriate to still fly that flag with any pride.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I took a Civil War class and the first thing the teacher said was that the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about state's rights.  

I hear that state's rights argument alot.  Here is a question nobody has ever been able to answer with any specificity....

"What state rights had he federal government trampled upon the Southern states before the Civil war?  Other than possibly ending Slavery, what specific undermining of state rights had Lincoln supported undermining during his campaign to become President?"

[Phishfan]

^^^Since I wasn't alive then, I really don't know. But if you think there weren't any others then you are likely wrong. We are still fighing states rights issues to this very day. One right in the forefront is the use of medical marijuana.

[Defense54]

I think its very difficult to argue this in 2010.

These people did not have access to any information. Most just knew their ways of life and a bunch of Yanks from up North was making them change. Thats it. Who are they to demand what I say or do? Life is different way up there. Our State should be able to decide it for us. Slavery was a part of it. But from what I read , it was not the slavery they were fighting for , but the fact they were not given options. No one likes to be told anything.  Imagine being brought up in those times. Then hearing a voice from 1000 miles away telling you to change. No if ands of buts. But its more dramtic to make them out as evil sinful terrorists. Different times .

[Defense54]

^^^Since I wasn't alive then, I really don't know. But if you think there weren't any others then you are likely wrong. We are still fighing states rights issues to this very day. One right in the forefront is the use of medical marijuana.

Excellent point . Somethings need to be considered on a state level from those that actually live there and are educated on the subject. Who is some person 1000 miles away to make a judgement on a place he hasn't even visited?

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

^^^Since I wasn't alive then, I really don't know. But if you think there weren't any others then you are likely wrong. We are still fighing states rights issues to this very day. One right in the forefront is the use of medical marijuana.

I get that medical marijuana is a state's right issue TODAY.  It wasn't in 1860.  And today is hardly a reason to take up arms against the USA.  Might be valid reason to support one candidate over another.  

So going back to my question....what issue other than the possible ending of slavery, what was there that justified committing treason against the United States of America.   Specifically not the generic "states rights" or drug laws that were passed 100 years after the civil war.  

[Phishfan]

So, you want me to repeat that since I wasn't alive, I don't know? Google it. See what you can find.

[Defense54]

I heard they Banned Lynard Skynard in several Yankee states...........Lincoln was a Zepplin Fan.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I think its very difficult to argue this in 2010.

These people did not have access to any information. Most just knew their ways of life and a bunch of Yanks from up North was making them change. Thats it. Who are they to demand what I say or do? Life is different way up there. Our State should be able to decide it for us. Slavery was a part of it. But from what I read , it was not the slavery they were fighting for , but the fact they were not given options. No one likes to be told anything.  Imagine being brought up in those times. Then hearing a voice from 1000 miles away telling you to change. No if ands of buts. But its more dramtic to make them out as evil sinful terrorists. Different times .

Fact is Yanks hadn't told them to do anything.  The emancipation proclamation occurred after the civil war began, and it is highly unlike it would have happened if the Civil War had not occurred.  In fact Lincoln was still the president-elect and not yet in office.

[Defense54]

Fact is Yanks hadn't told them to do anything.  The emancipation proclamation occurred after the civil war began, and it is highly unlike it would have happened if the Civil War had not occurred.  In fact Lincoln was still the president-elect and not yet in office.

He got a bullet in the head for something.............