The Confederacy

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

He got a bullet in the head for something.............

So did JFK. 

Those who argue that Confederates were in the right and Lincoln was in the wrong are no different in my book than those who would argue the Nazi's were in the right and FDR was in the wrong.   

[StL FinFan]

^^^Since I wasn't alive then, I really don't know. But if you think there weren't any others then you are likely wrong. We are still fighing states rights issues to this very day. One right in the forefront is the use of medical marijuana.

I'll  give you another: same sex unions

[bsmooth]

As much as they try to claim that it was not about slavery look at actions of the fine sons of the south when it came to Reconstruction and its aftermath.
The southern economy and way of life with its grand manors, balls, and other English royalty type ways was predicated on an economic system that was only sustainable with a massive work force of slaves. If they had to pay a fair wage to the laborers, the owners would not have been able to afford their grandious lifestyles.
Also most of the skilled labor such as blacksmiths would have commanded top dollar and the majority of these craftsman were slaves doing it for free.
They also feared that the freed slaves would vote their own kind into office and take power as their were more slaves than whites in a lot of places.
This actually happened during the Reconstruction as freed slaves voted fellow former slaves into state and local offices and even into sheriff's office.
The southern Democrats were so worked up over Reconstruction and the realization of their worst fears that they sold the White House to the nothern Republicans when the presidential race was a tie if the Republicans would agree to end Reconstruction and pull out federal troops.

As soon as Reconstruction ended and the last troops left the south, the terror began as duly elected blacks were forcibaly removed from office, sworn in sherrifs were killed, poll taxes and IQ tests were set up at voting stations, grandfather clauses were put into place to remove legally owned land from freed slaves and to deny their right to vote.


So do not believe for a minute that slavery was not the main reason for the seccesion. Every reason that the the defenders of the south bring up has a dark slavery undercurrent swirling beneath it. Those southern whites had a mortal fear of freed slaves with the power to control their own fate. All you have to do to know the truth is to look beyond their words to their actions leading up to the war( i.e the fight to allow states in as slave or free states), and after Reconstruction. For in this case actions do speak louder than words.

[Dave Gray]

Also, much of the South's prosperity and wealth was built on the back of slaves.  It wasn't just a racism issue, but a money issue that threatened to cost some rich families their fortune.

[Tenshot13]

I have a few points on the matter...

The South seceded from the Union, they didn't declare war.  The North were going to use force to prevent the South from seceding, thus the South taking up arms.  Saying Timothy McVeigh's actions were the same as the South seceding is a very weak argument.  McVeigh was a terrorist.  The South were defending themselves and their beliefs, whether misguided or not.  Whether they were right or wrong on the matter is another discussion.  How is the Revolutionary war any different?  Are you saying that we are British terrorists?  The South was just as justified to secede from the Union as the U.S.A. was from England.  I like Defense's argument that people don't like being told what to do from thousands of miles away.  The U.S.A. didn't like being told what to do from England thousands of miles away, and the South didn't like being told what to do by the North thousands of miles away.

As far as waving a confederate flag in this day and age, I see it the same as someone from Puerto Rico or Cuba flying their flag in America.  They do it because it is their culture (yes, a lot do it because they were born there, but just as many do it because their parents or grandparents are from there, and have instilled the culture into them).  The confederate flag shows someone is from the South, and proud of it.  Don't say that is a slap in the face to America, because I've seen many people fly both flags (American and Confederate) from their house, or both decals on their vehicle.  I, personally, wouldn't fly a confederate flag, but I do understand why people do it.  It's not a racist thing, or an unpatriotic thing, it's a cultural thing.

[Defense54]

So did JFK. 

 .   

I rest my case.

[Dave Gray]

A letter from John Wilkes Booth:

"I have ever held the South was right. The very nomination of Abraham Lincoln, four years ago, spoke plainly war upon Southern rights and institutions."  The institution of "African slavery", he had written, "is one of the greatest blessings that God has ever bestowed upon a favored nation" and Lincoln's policy was one of "total annihilation".

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I have a few points on the matter...

The South seceded from the Union, they didn't declare war.  The North were going to use force to prevent the South from seceding, thus the South taking up arms.  Saying Timothy McVeigh's actions were the same as the South seceding is a very weak argument.  McVeigh was a terrorist.  The South were defending themselves and their beliefs, whether misguided or not.  Whether they were right or wrong on the matter is another discussion.  How is the Revolutionary war any different?  Are you saying that we are British terrorists?  The South was just as justified to secede from the Union as the U.S.A. was from England.  I like Defense's argument that people don't like being told what to do from thousands of miles away.  The U.S.A. didn't like being told what to do from England thousands of miles away, and the South didn't like being told what to do by the North thousands of miles away.

History review.. King George was not elected in 1775, with the Americans being pissed off about the fact that the candidate they supported didn't win.  The Americans did not have a vote in each of the houses of parliament one based on population the other giving each colony two votes. 

The fact is the South wasn't being told what to do by the North.  The South was a part of congress, and voted in the presidential election.  If it was not the south but Washington, DC that seceded than your comparison to the American Revolution would have some merit as that city has no representation in congress.

The south did not want to accept the democratic process.   

As far as waving a confederate flag in this day and age, I see it the same as someone from Puerto Rico or Cuba flying their flag in America.  They do it because it is their culture (yes, a lot do it because they were born there, but just as many do it because their parents or grandparents are from there, and have instilled the culture into them).  The confederate flag shows someone is from the South, and proud of it.  Don't say that is a slap in the face to America, because I've seen many people fly both flags (American and Confederate) from their house, or both decals on their vehicle.  I, personally, wouldn't fly a confederate flag, but I do understand why people do it.  It's not a racist thing, or an unpatriotic thing, it's a cultural thing.

I have seen people waive the Puerto Rican flag.  I have no problem with that.  Nor do I have a problem with some one flying the Texas flag or the modern flag of Germany or Japan.  Or for that matter the flag of Afghanistan.  I do have problem with someone flying the Nazi flag,  the Japanese Rising Sun flag, or the Taliban and judge them as I do someone one who flies the confederate flag.  The first amendment protects their right to fly such a flag, but doesn't make them any less of an asshole. 

[Defense54]

A letter from John Wilkes Booth:

"I have ever held the South was right. The very nomination of Abraham Lincoln, four years ago, spoke plainly war upon Southern rights and institutions."  The institution of "African slavery", he had written, "is one of the greatest blessings that God has ever bestowed upon a favored nation" and Lincoln's policy was one of "total annihilation".

Its easy for us to look back 150 yrs later and say what a complete ass this guy is. But Slavery , although completely inhuman, was the norm for many generations in a society that had the intellect of a rock. Even past Presidents and founding Fathers had slaves.    Making something legal like weed would be very easy. So many accepting souls.  Now try to just take away Tobacco or alcohol . Just banish it and make it illegal. Its clearly bad for you. Try it and see what would happen.

and Lincoln's policy was one of "total annihilation".

That means he didn't ease into it. He didn't just ban it Up north and work his way south, let them get used to it a bit. Let the state Representatives go back and explain why its wrong. He just said , I make this illegal and thats it. Not very intelligent people your dealing with back then .

And how this is relevant today is beyond me? Lynard Synard can't raise the rebel flag at a show because some people are LOOKING to find anything to be offended about?  And Budda has the nerve to say she isn't influenced by the current Black Leaders. If she wasn't she would be able to at least discuss it openly and intelligently , without getting so defensive. Its wrong because they say it is doesn't cut it for me. Explain why or YOU are the stupid one.

[StL FinFan]

As someone who grew up in a family where the "n word" was thrown around a lot, I will say that when I see the confederate flag, I do think of racism because the KKK uses it.  I realize to some people it is a symbol of Southern Pride but to so many it is a reminder of what was and is offensive.  If the majority think it's offensive, it needs to go.

As far as being "influenced" by certain leaders, we all have the ability to think for ourselves.  People follow and listen to others who are of similar opinions already.  I have found that most people are not quick to give up their own opinions.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Its easy for us to look back 150 yrs later and say what a complete ass this guy is. But Slavery , although completely inhuman, was the norm for many generations in a society that had the intellect of a rock. Even past Presidents and founding Fathers had slaves.    Making something legal like weed would be very easy. So many accepting souls.  Now try to just take away Tobacco or alcohol . Just banish it and make it illegal. Its clearly bad for you. Try it and see what would happen.
That means he didn't ease into it. He didn't just ban it Up north and work his way south, let them get used to it a bit. Let the state Representatives go back and explain why its wrong. He just said , I make this illegal and thats it. Not very intelligent people your dealing with back then .

Anti-semitism was the "norm" in Europe for a millenium.  Should I look at the Holocaust in that light and be less critical of the Nazis? 

And Budda has the nerve to say she isn't influenced by the current Black Leaders. If she wasn't she would be able to at least discuss it openly and intelligently , without getting so defensive. Its wrong because they say it is doesn't cut it for me. Explain why or YOU are the stupid one.

I don't think she ever said that she isn't influenced by them.  But she doesn't need them to know that racism exists or that you are a racist. 

[Defense54]

 

author=MyGodWearsAHoodie link=topic=16418.msg196084#msg196084 date=1269102145]
Anti-semitism was the "norm" in Europe for a millenium.  Should I look at the Holocaust in that light and be less critical of the Nazis? 

Man you guys are fucking horrible at picking examples. I don't remember the black race looking to be exterminated.  Big difference between Exploiting one and Killing/ending one.......


 

I don't think she ever said that she isn't influenced by them.  But she doesn't need them to know that racism exists or that you are a racist. 

Fair enough.  I took it a different way. But why get do defensive? Why can't she openly and intelligently discuss anything? And saying I'm racist because I do look to discuss these things is just more proof of how ignorant you are. These leaders prey that most will think just like that so it gives them free reighn to say and do whatever  they please and things.....nothing will ever change. Good job Hoodie!  Keep up the good work of the ignorant liberal.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Man you guys are fucking horrible at picking examples. I don't remember the black race looking to be exterminated.  Big difference between Exploiting one and Killing/ending one.......

Your comment just go to show how much you trivialize slavery and its accompanying murders and rapes.  Kidnapping people from their homes, transporting them across the ocean in which many of the died in the middle passage than enslaving them for generations is a pretty fucking serious violations of basic human rights.  The southern view of blacks and the nazi view of Jews were not different, subhumans that can be treated as property and done with as you wish.  Plenty of blacks were murdered by their owners (it wasn't a crime).  And Jews were enslaved.  The only difference between the USA slave owners and Germany slave owners is the US was smarter when it came to economics and allowed most of its slaves to live until they were too old to work. 

[Defense54]

 

=1269114256]
Your comment just go to show how much you trivialize slavery and its accompanying murders and rapes. 

I thought we were talking about Slavery. Please show me were anything was said about murder rape and torture?  Am I denying it happened? Of course not. But it was hardly in the discussion so how can you just add it to make a point?

Kidnapping people from their homes, transporting them across the ocean in which many of the died in the middle passage than enslaving them for generations is a pretty fucking serious violations of basic human rights. 

Damn right it is. Stop stating it like I EVER said it wasn't. FYI most of it was done by Africans themselves. 

The southern view of blacks and the nazi view of Jews were not different, subhumans that can be treated as property and done with as you wish.  Plenty of blacks were murdered by their owners (it wasn't a crime).  And Jews were enslaved.  The only difference between the USA slave owners and Germany slave owners is the US was smarter when it came to economics and allowed most of its slaves to live until they were too old to work. 
 

You really are an ignorant one hoodie. You will try to twist anything to make a point. The agenda of the German Nazi, the whole point was to EXTERMINATE the race. 4 Million were killed in a little over 5 yrs?

Had that been the agenda people like Budda wouldn't even be here today. Jews were Killed. That was the # 1 priority. They kept a few around for sex and experiments , maybe to do a little menial labor. But they were to die. And NONE got pregnant. EVER.

Slave owners themselves knocked them up. Sure many were killed over ignorance , but it was never the agenda. There was no Hitler screaming at them to die. Just work.Who would do it if they died?

Again , I'm not making light of it, just saying the two were completely different. I guess that makes me racist too? Because I won't admit it was the most horrible thing ever done to humans on this planet?   

[StL FinFan]

Jews were being exterminated, slaves were an expensive commodity.  Slaves cost a lot of money to replace, therefore, I don't think they were killed for trivial reasons.  There is a reason why the Chinese and the Irish built the bridges and railroads: they were cheap labor and expendable.  Slaves were not used in dangerous labor because they were too expensive to replace.

Was slavery wrong? Definitely.  Was it attempted genocide? No.