Is Thomas Hall of Fame bound?

[Tepop84]

Nice try.  They don't vote for ROLB.  They vote 2 inside and 2 outside.  Which side is not important.

lol, not very smart are you? If they voted for 2 centers and 2 tackles, would that be fair?

[Pappy13]

Well there's not quite as many teams that use 2 centers compared to teams that use a 3-4.  It's a small distinction and you insinuated it had something to do with the fact that he played on the right as opposed to just an outside linebacker.

[bsmooth]

Bullshit there isn't a bunch of difference stat wise. You want to post retarded shit about how ray lewis' team had great defensive tackles that allowed lewis to make a bunch of tackles, yet according to pro-football-reference, ray lewis played in a 3-4 for 7 years while zach played in a 4-3 for almost his entire career. 

Ray Lewis 1349 solo tackles, zach 1109
ray lewis 28 interceptions , zach 17
ray lewis, 36.5 sacks, zach 20.5
zach led 16 to 14 in forced fumbles

ray lewis led 2-0 in being named the best defensive player of the year
ray lewis led 1-0 in being named super bowl mvp.

6-0 advantage to lewis in being named to the sporting news all-nfl team.
4-0 advantage to lewis in being named pro football writers all nfl team

Yeah and it is a lot easier to rack up stats when lineman cannot get to you because of your d lineman, when the qb is being pressured to make mistakes by the same lineman, and a secondary that is shutting down his recievers.
You seem hell bent to not acknowledge that Lewis benefitted greatly from being an excellent player on a stellar defense.
The SB stat is meaningless because Zach never got a shot to play in one, and the only reason Lewis did was that defense is considered one of "THE BEST EVER".
So it begs the question. Does Lewis's still get better stats than Zach if they played on equivilent defenses? How about if Lewis played his whole career at mlb istead of switching to right or left side as he did frequently? Lewis as of 2009 only played 6 years at mlb. Would Zach still fail to achieve similiar stats if he were to have played on that Ravens D?
Why are you so loath to admit that Lewis's image and stats are inflated some because of where he played, and that is going to help him in the long run towards getting into the HOF?

[Tepop84]

Yeah and it is a lot easier to rack up stats when lineman cannot get to you because of your d lineman, when the qb is being pressured to make mistakes by the same lineman, and a secondary that is shutting down his recievers.
You seem hell bent to not acknowledge that Lewis benefitted greatly from being an excellent player on a stellar defense.
The SB stat is meaningless because Zach never got a shot to play in one, and the only reason Lewis did was that defense is considered one of "THE BEST EVER".
So it begs the question. Does Lewis's still get better stats than Zach if they played on equivilent defenses? How about if Lewis played his whole career at mlb istead of switching to right or left side as he did frequently? Lewis as of 2009 only played 6 years at mlb. Would Zach still fail to achieve similiar stats if he were to have played on that Ravens D?
Why are you so loath to admit that Lewis's image and stats are inflated some because of where he played, and that is going to help him in the long run towards getting into the HOF?

Wow, you homers just aren't very smart are you?  seriously saying that a 3-4 mlb has an advantage in compiling stats over a 4-3 mlb. You guys seriously are just ridiculous homers. Why don't you go to a non-dolphin website and ask if zach thomas and ray lewis  switched teams would zach be considered better.  You will get laughed off the board.

[Tepop84]

You know what else is funny, is that when Ray lewis won defensive player of the year in 2000, the dolphins had 5 defensive pro bowlers, and the raven had 3.  You argument is so retarded.

[Tepop84]

number of pro-bowl defensive players not including lewis or thomas.

1996 - 0 - 1
1997 - 0 - 0
1998 - 1 - 2
1999 - 1 - 2
2000 - 4 - 2
2001 - 1 - 2
2002 - 5 - 1

Miami is the first number.  How bad is your argument??

[David Fulcher]

Nice try.  They don't vote for ROLB.  They vote 2 inside and 2 outside.  Which side is not important.

lol, not very smart are you? If they voted for 2 centers and 2 tackles, would that be fair?

Umm, no, Tepop, I'm pretty sure Pappy's right on this one.  Unlike the offensive line, where it does matter which *side* you choose because the left tackle is always gonna be the left tackle if the quarterback playing is right-armed and the right tackle is always going to be the right tackle in the same situation, and vice versa if it's a left-armed quarterback, the defining of an OLB as either "right" or "left" is pretty arbitrary, at least in any 3-4 I've ever seen, because it's more based on strong- or weakside.  Therefore, an OLB could be on the right side of the field if it's the weak side of the offense (less skill players to that side of the field) but might be on the left side of the field on the next play if it's the weak side on that play.  I'm not trying to be facetious here and you probably already knew this, but at the same time, it's pretty relevant to the discussion since you apparently thought all the (right/left, weak/strong) OLB's are vying for one spot/side, when that's not the case.  Basically, the two best OLB's will get on there, regardless of side, unless it's based on weak- or strongside assignment.....but I don't think that it is.

[David Fulcher]

(sorry, had to break my post up because I guess it was too long initially as it was all together, but I wanted to make sure everything got on here)

number of pro-bowl defensive players not including lewis or thomas.

1996 - 0 - 1
1997 - 0 - 0
1998 - 1 - 2
1999 - 1 - 2
2000 - 4 - 2
2001 - 1 - 2
2002 - 5 - 1

Miami is the first number.  How bad is your argument??

I think it's too simple to just look at pure Pro Bowl selections for a given season, especially since they were so close in every season besides that 2002 season (which I will come back to in a second, don't worry) because while having multiple Pro Bowl players on a particular side of the ball definitely suggests that that side of the ball is probably adequate or even good, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are inherently amazing as a unit.  For instance, one defense can have 2-3 good-to-great players (which, as we know, the Dolphins' defenses of these years always had at least that, with other players right at the cusp of that such as Trace Armstrong and Tim Bowens [and, yes, I know that they got their Pro Bowl selections, too, just they weren't perennnials.]), but depending on how the other 8-9 players play obviously has a huge influence, too.  If those guys are just adequate or maybe even mediocre or, perish forbid, awful (a la Gibril Wilson, and I'm sure we had a few of those back then, too, just none that are coming to my mind right now [was Jamar Flecther that bad?]), that's going to have a huge impact on the defense's performance, no matter how good you are at your MLB/ILB position.  I don't think you can even sit here and deny that.

[David Fulcher]

(sorry I'm so obtuse, mods/guys, just wanted to break it up even further to make sure it posted, Word is being funny on my computer right now so I can't trust it for copy-and-paste functionality if it didn't post correctly. I hope that's okay.)

So, going back to that 2000 Baltimore Ravens squad in particular, and this is just off the top of my head (seriously), I can recall "The Goose" Tony Siragusa, Sam Adams (back when he was still good, i.e., became way too fat like with the Pats those season(s)), Michael McCrary, Rob Burnett, Jamie Sharper, Peter Boulware (basically I've just named their entire front seven, excluding Lewis, of course), Rod Woodson (one of the best EVER at his position, even if he was a safety at this point in time), and Chris McAllister.  I also remember Duane Starks, to be honest, but I acknowledge that he wasn't that great and was probably only deemed "good" because of the talent around him at the time.  I can't recall their other safety, but he wasn't a stud, either...I think it was Brian Walker or somebody like that.

While I won't deny that I have a good memory, particularly for sports, that's still pretty ridiculous for me to remember, nearly ten years later, nearly their entire damn starting defense, if other players weren't memorable besides Mr. Lewis himself (and I'll give you Rod Woodson).  They were, as I've said earlier, stacked.  Granted, he really only played with that particular defense for the 2000 and 2001 seasons, but still ,the man's had great talent surrounding him defensively pretty much his whole career.  It may not have always been to that extent, but it's been there, whether all of those guys were getting PB selections or not.  Whereas with Miami, we obviously had a few other players who were getting selections once in their career or even multiple seasons, but we were never really stacked front to back like that with the exception of.....

number of pro-bowl defensive players not including lewis or thomas.

2002 - 5 - 1

Yeah, not necessarily *relevant* to this particular discussion since it was only one season, but I did hit on this in my other previous post on this thread.  We were stacked defensively in 2002, there's no way around that, and we let it all go to waste with one Jay Fiedler (Jay Fiedler?!?!) injury and *brilliant* coaching decesions by The Wannstauche and crew.  Yeah, I had to get one more poke in at Dave while I could. 

[Tepop84]

Umm, no, Tepop, I'm pretty sure Pappy's right on this one.  Unlike the offensive line, where it does matter which *side* you choose because the left tackle is always gonna be the left tackle if the quarterback playing is right-armed and the right tackle is always going to be the right tackle in the same situation, and vice versa if it's a left-armed quarterback, the defining of an OLB as either "right" or "left" is pretty arbitrary, at least in any 3-4 I've ever seen, because it's more based on strong- or weakside.  Therefore, an OLB could be on the right side of the field if it's the weak side of the offense (less skill players to that side of the field) but might be on the left side of the field on the next play if it's the weak side on that play.  I'm not trying to be facetious here and you probably already knew this, but at the same time, it's pretty relevant to the discussion since you apparently thought all the (right/left, weak/strong) OLB's are vying for one spot/side, when that's not the case.  Basically, the two best OLB's will get on there, regardless of side, unless it's based on weak- or strongside assignment.....but I don't think that it is.

actually the player played in the early 90s when most teams were using a 4-3. so picking 2 olb and 2 mlb isn't fair as most teams were using 2 olb and 1 mlb. 

[Tepop84]

(sorry, had to break my post up because I guess it was too long initially as it was all together, but I wanted to make sure everything got on here)
I think it's too simple to just look at pure Pro Bowl selections for a given season, especially since they were so close in every season besides that 2002 season (which I will come back to in a second, don't worry) because while having multiple Pro Bowl players on a particular side of the ball definitely suggests that that side of the ball is probably adequate or even good, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are inherently amazing as a unit.  For instance, one defense can have 2-3 good-to-great players (which, as we know, the Dolphins' defenses of these years always had at least that, with other players right at the cusp of that such as Trace Armstrong and Tim Bowens [and, yes, I know that they got their Pro Bowl selections, too, just they weren't perennnials.]), but depending on how the other 8-9 players play obviously has a huge influence, too.  If those guys are just adequate or maybe even mediocre or, perish forbid, awful (a la Gibril Wilson, and I'm sure we had a few of those back then, too, just none that are coming to my mind right now [was Jamar Flecther that bad?]), that's going to have a huge impact on the defense's performance, no matter how good you are at your MLB/ILB position.  I don't think you can even sit here and deny that.

deny what.  that the poster was wrong when he said that it is easier for a 3-4 mlb to accumulate stats and that zach thomas played on terrible defenses and ray lewis' defenses were so great that he could accumulate more stats easier. 

[David Fulcher]

actually the player played in the early 90s when most teams were using a 4-3. so picking 2 olb and 2 mlb isn't fair as most teams were using 2 olb and 1 mlb. 

Even though this doesn't really relate to your original comments concerning voting strictly for a ROLB vs. a LOLB, which I addressed in the first of my three consecutive posts, what you're saying here is probably true, from what I recall from that era (I started watching the NFL around '92/'93). For DT's career (1989-1999?), most defenses in the league were 4-3, though there definitely were some 3-4 defenses throughout that time, with Pittsburgh classically always running a 3-4.  So, in that regard, if most of the defenses were a 4-3 during that time, there would have been more OLB's than MLB's/ILB's (if we're talking 3-4 for the latter) and thus an All-Pro selection would be harder to obtain as an OLB than a MLB/ILB just because there were more of them (OLB's) playing/starting in the league.   Still, that's the way that the AP (or whoever chooses those teams) decided to list their defenses, as 3-4. 

If you ask me, though, it's not the OLB's that have the gripe in that situation so much as the DT's, since only one is getting selected in a 3-4 lineup, and there were tons of them out there since most of the defenses were 4-3 at the time.  .....But, that's another argument altogether. 

deny what.  that the poster was wrong when he said that it is easier for a 3-4 mlb to accumulate stats and that zach thomas played on terrible defenses and ray lewis' defenses were so great that he could accumulate more stats easier. 

I'll let bsmooth defend himself on this one, but I'll say this, in regards to team (actually, defensive) talent: whether Ray was playing as a 4-3 MLB, with Siragusa and Sam Adams keeping interior O-lineman off of him, or playing as one of two ILB's in a 3-4, with Kelly Gregg and Trevor Pryce and Haloti Ngata (that's a bad man there!) and crew keeping interior o-lineman tied up and away from him and his cohort, the guy's always had a lot of help in front of him to allow him to be the playmaker and tackling machine that he has been.  I do understand that Ray has played most of his career as a 3-4 ILB compared to a 4-3 MLB, and that in the 3-4, there's another ILB there that the defense is hoping will be relatively free himself to make plays. 
As for Zach, he did play most of his career as the lone MLB in the 4-3, there until the end of his playing days with Saban (4-3/3-4 hybrid) and I think Cameron's last season, we ran a true 3-4 with Crowder and Zach as the two ILB's.  But, even as a 4-3 MLB most of his career, I don't think Zach had as much help around him (directly in front of him) as Ray has most of his career, though I will say that early in Zach's career, Tim Bowens and Daryl Gardener were both pretty big to his success, which Zach himself admits to in that 20 questions piece currently on the board. 

So, again, I'll let bsmooth defend himself in that regard, but I think regardless of whether we're comparing a (primarily) 4-3 MLB to a (primarily) 3-4 ILB, besides the scheme, you've also got to take into account pure talent and efficiency of the D-lineman, too, because whether it's a 4-3 with the two DT's or a 3-4 with all three D-lineman actually, their job is to preoccupy the interior lineman so that the MLB/ILB won't have to fight and shed as many blocks as he otherwise would and the OLB's are more able to easily rush the passer when they're not playing the run or dropping back into coverage.  While I would never say that it is easier for a 3-4 ILB to accumulate stats compared to any 4-3 MLB, it's certainly possible that a 3-4 ILB can, depending on the talent around him.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

All this slicing of the ravens defense from 2000 and the subtle difference between linebacker positions is just smoke and mirrors to distract from the bottom line about ZACH THOMAS.

When has there ever been a general feeling league wide (not just among Dolphin fans) that Thomas was the best player in the league at his position (not among the best, but the best)?  What records has Thomas broken?  What championships has Thomas been apart of?  What history has Thomas made?  Twenty years from now what about Thomas would make a fan of 31 teams want to pause and read up the history of Thomas while walking thru a museum in Canton Ohio?

It is the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of the Very Good. 

[Pappy13]

When has there ever been a general feeling league wide (not just among Dolphin fans) that Thomas was the best player in the league at his position (not among the best, but the best)?

You can make this same argument about a lot of members that are currently in the Hall of Fame.  I've already mentioned Derrick Thomas.  What about Harry Carson?  Since when were they considered the best player in the league at their position league wide?  Not among the best, but the best.  Even amongst the hof voters you don't need everyone to vote for you, you only need to get more votes than the other guys on the ballot.

I still think Zach has a shot, albeit a small shot.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

^^^ Pappy you picked one question I asked and only one question I asked.  Getting in the Hall is not a simple formula where we pick a single criteria and measure it. 

Joe Namath was hardly the best QB of this era.  However, he scores big on some of the other questions. 

Derrick Thomas is the only player in NFL history to record 7 sacks in single game.   He also was DROY. 

Harry Carson was the the team captain for a team that won the superbowl.  A team that was known for having a great defense. 

So don't tell me that there are other players that don't meet one of the questions I asked.  Tell me how Zack meets one of the questions I asked.