A politically correct Christmas?

[Spider-Dan]

This may vary from region to region of the country.  I would suspect Topeka, Kansas more office lobbies would have Silent night than in Manhattan.

I don't think Manhattan would have it at all.  Seriously: I think Jesus Christmas songs wouldn't make it into the rotation.

Even in the Bible Belt, I suspect that Santa Christmas songs greatly outnumber Jesus Christmas songs at any location that is not directly affiliated with a church.  Particularly since many of those songs are distinctly American and date to the post-war era.

[Pappy13]

^^  Well I think you would be wrong.  There are actually a lot of people that still believe that Christmas is still about the birth of Christ and they do in fact have "traditional" Christmas songs playing at Christmas time.  Now, most of these places are not public places, they are in peoples homes, like mine.  Public places tend to have the "Santa Claus" stuff because they don't want to offend people who don't believe the season is about Christ either because of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.  That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that most feel it's not appropriate in a public place, like me.

So yes, I will agree that public places do tend to vote the "Santa Claus", but I think there are quite a few people that still vote for "Christmas" in their own homes like me.  Are we the minority?  I couldn't say.  You are probably right, most have replaced the spiritual Christmas with the commercial one, but not everyone has.  And just because the mall is playing "Santa Claus", I can have "Christmas" music in my home and in my car and even take it with me if I want, which I do and I think there are a lot more of the people like me than you imagine.  Just because we go to the mall too, doesn't change are beliefs.

[Philly Fin Fan]

I think the conversation in regards to music is about public places, not private areas like homes.

[Pappy13]

I think the conversation in regards to music is about public places, not private areas like homes.

The conversation was about which is more prevelant, location not withstanding.

In public places it surely is, because it's more appropriate even for those who would prefer more traditional music in private and that's what really counts.  What do you choose for yourself, in private.  Because if more choose traditional in a private setting, does it really matter that the public setting is more commercial?

I don't really know what the percentage is of people that are Christians and those that are not.  I know there's still a few Christians around however, even in Manhatten.

[Spider-Dan]

^^  Well I think you would be wrong.  There are actually a lot of people that still believe that Christmas is still about the birth of Christ and they do in fact have "traditional" Christmas songs playing at Christmas time.

Sure.  But nearly all of these people also have a Christmas tree with presents under it, and I'm willing to wager that unless you're specifically buying Christian CDs to play, a significant chunk of the Christmas songs that you play are also Santa Christmas songs.

There just aren't that many well-known Jesus Christmas songs.

Now, most of these places are not public places, they are in peoples homes, like mine.  Public places tend to have the "Santa Claus" stuff because they don't want to offend people who don't believe the season is about Christ either because of their religious beliefs or lack thereof.

...or, Santa Christmas is simply more popular and relevant than Jesus Christmas.

[Pappy13]

But nearly all of these people also have a Christmas tree with presents under it

What's wrong with that?  Why can't we have our cake and eat it too?  While we open the presents we will have traditional Christmas music playing and we will also go to mass.  And what do we have atop our Christmas tree?  A star or an Angel.  I see no reason people can't celebrate both sides of the season.

...and I'm willing to wager that unless you're specifically buying Christian CDs to play, a significant chunk of the Christmas songs that you play are also Santa Christmas songs.

There just aren't that many well-known Jesus Christmas songs.
...or, Santa Christmas is simply more popular and relevant than Jesus Christmas.

Well it's not JUST Jesus that we're talking about here.  There are plenty of songs that are simply a celebration of the time of year rather than about Santa Claus or what he represents.  Most of these songs are about family values or Winter traditions that don't really have anything to do with gift giving or the commercial side of Christmas.

Walking in a Winter Wonderland.
I'm dreaming of a White Christmas.
I'll be home for Christmas
Deck the Halls
Have yourself a Merry little Christmas.
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.
Have a Holly Jolly Christmas

And that's in addition to the songs that are more religious in nature.

Angels we have heard on high
What Child is this
Away in a Manger
Silent Night
Do You hear what I hear
God Rest ye Merry Gentlemen
Hark the Herald Angels sing
Gloria
It came upon a Midnight Clear
Joy to the World
O Little Town of Bethlehem

Do I really need to go on?  In fact just looking at a couple sites that I googled with "Christmas Songs", I think I see more of the Religious and/or Christmas time variety than of the Santa Claus variety.  I think you are VASTLY underestimating what is available to be heard.  Again, you just have to be a little selective.  And I'm not against a Rudolph or Santa song, we listen to them as well, but I actually get a much more "Christmas" feeling listening to one of the above songs.

[Pappy13]

After rereading some of the thread, I realized Dan that you actually had a few of the songs that I would classify as "Traditional" in your original list.  Perhaps this is where some of our disagreement lies.  I consider Walking in a Winter Wonderland as a "traditional" song.  It's a song about Winter time which I consider "Christmas time", it's not a song about Santa nor is it a song about gift giving.  The same is true of Jingle Bells and Deck the Halls.  They are simply songs about winter time and being festive.  They don't insinuate the reason for the festivities.  That's open to interpretation depending on why or how you celebrate "Christmas".

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

I like how Pappy breaks them in three groups....

Santa, season, religious.  Although I would stick Frosty in season (there is absolutely no mention of either Jesus or Santa in the song although the jolly fat man has a cameo in the movie).

As a non-Christian I don't mind either the season or Santa ones.  I find the religious ones as annoying as the Jehovah Witnesses that try to convert you.   

[Pappy13]

As a non-Christian I don't mind either the season or Santa ones.  I find the religious ones as annoying as the Jehovah Witnesses that try to convert you.   

Which is why most people (including Christians) don't feel they are appropriate for public places and they tend to try to stick to the non-religious ones in those cases.

[Spider-Dan]

What's wrong with that?  Why can't we have our cake and eat it too?

You tell me... why can't you?  Why are people complaining about Christ being taken out of Christmas when they themselves participate in Santa Christmas?  Why not just enjoy the holiday season?

Well it's not JUST Jesus that we're talking about here.  There are plenty of songs that are simply a celebration of the time of year rather than about Santa Claus or what he represents.  Most of these songs are about family values or Winter traditions that don't really have anything to do with the commercial side of Christmas.

You keep trying to frame it as the "commercial" side of Christmas, but "Winter traditions" have very little to do with the birth of Jesus.  And that's the whole point: certain segments of the population are complaining about "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" (i.e. seasonal winter traditions) that serve to exclude Jesus Christ, who is (in their view) the reason for the season.

Walking in a Winter Wonderland.
I'm dreaming of a White Christmas.
I'll be home for Christmas
Deck the Halls
Have yourself a Merry little Christmas.
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.
Have a Holly Jolly Christmas

All of these songs are secular and reference at least one of the following:

- sleigh bells
- mistletoe
- candy canes
- Christmas trees
- toys

They are perfect examples of "Santa Christmas" (i.e. "Happy Holidays") songs.  Deck The Halls and Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas are particularly bad songs for you to cite, as both of them specifically mention Yule.

Angels we have heard on high
What Child is this
Away in a Manger
Silent Night
Do You hear what I hear
God Rest ye Merry Gentlemen
Hark the Herald Angels sing
Gloria
It came upon a Midnight Clear
Joy to the World
O Little Town of Bethlehem

I've heard of maybe half of these songs, but I do live in California, so...

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Which is why most people (including Christians) don't feel they are appropriate for public places and they tend to try to stick to the non-religious ones in those cases.

They don't do a very good job.  Cause I have heard all of them, and it ain't cause I am seek them out. 

[Pappy13]

You tell me... why can't you?  Why are people complaining about Christ being taken out of Christmas when they themselves participate in Santa Christmas?  Why not just enjoy the holiday season?

100% agree with you here.  I have no problems with anyone telling me Happy Holidays, as long as they don't mind me telling them Merry Christmas.

You keep trying to frame it as the "commercial" side of Christmas, but "Winter traditions" have very little to do with the birth of Jesus.

For Christians, Christmas is a time for celebration.  We are celebrating the birth of Christ.  Anything that is done as part of that celebration has everything to do with Christ for them.  Granted that trimming a tree doesn't have much to do with Christ, but it's all a part of the celebration and we will often put a star (which represents the star of Bethlehem) or an Angel on top the tree to again remind us of why we are celebrating.

They are perfect examples of "Santa Christmas"

How are sleigh bells or tree trimming "Santa Christmas"?  Granted it's not "Jesus Christmas", but it's not "Santa Christmas" either.  "Santa Christmas" for me is defined as "gift giving" which I'm saying is the commercialization of Christmas.  Again, I want to stress that I have no problem with saying "Happy Holidays", which to me is the equivalent of "Merry Christmas".  They are one in the same to me.  I don't agree with those folks that think otherwise.  It's not taking Christ out of the season, it's just not sticking it in your face.  There is a difference.

Deck The Halls and Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas are particularly bad songs for you to cite, as both of them specifically mention Yule.

And what is Yule?  It's a Pagan celebration.  Pagan yes, but still a celebration.  Christians have merely folded Yule into our celebration the same way that we have folded Santa into our celebration.  I see your point that it's not religious in nature, but for Christians it doesn't necessarily have to be about Christ, as long as it's about a celebration and the reason that Christians are celebrating might be very different from the reason that pagans are celebrating. 

I've heard of maybe half of these songs, but I do live in California, so...

I grew up a Catholic in the midwest in the 60's.  My fondest memories of Christmas are going to midnight mass with my family and listening to the choir sing absolutely beautiful versions of many of these songs.  I think these 2 facts have LOT to do with our difference of opinion.

[bsmooth]

What's wrong with that?  Why can't we have our cake and eat it too?  While we open the presents we will have traditional Christmas music playing and we will also go to mass.  And what do we have atop our Christmas tree?  A star or an Angel.  I see no reason people can't celebrate both sides of the season.
Well it's not JUST Jesus that we're talking about here.  There are plenty of songs that are simply a celebration of the time of year rather than about Santa Claus or what he represents.  Most of these songs are about family values or Winter traditions that don't really have anything to do with gift giving or the commercial side of Christmas.

Walking in a Winter Wonderland.
I'm dreaming of a White Christmas.
I'll be home for Christmas
Deck the Halls
Have yourself a Merry little Christmas.
It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.
Have a Holly Jolly Christmas

And that's in addition to the songs that are more religious in nature.

Angels we have heard on high
What Child is this
Away in a Manger
Silent Night
Do You hear what I hear
God Rest ye Merry Gentlemen
Hark the Herald Angels sing
Gloria
It came upon a Midnight Clear
Joy to the World
O Little Town of Bethlehem

Do I really need to go on?  In fact just looking at a couple sites that I googled with "Christmas Songs", I think I see more of the Religious and/or Christmas time variety than of the Santa Claus variety.  I think you are VASTLY underestimating what is available to be heard.  Again, you just have to be a little selective.  And I'm not against a Rudolph or Santa song, we listen to them as well, but I actually get a much more "Christmas" feeling listening to one of the above songs.

If you listen to the radio stations that have gone all Christmas all the time starting after Thanksgiving, you will hear all these songs.
If you listen to radio stations that include some Christmas songs into their rotations you will hear more of the classic songs (i.e. Rudolph, Jingle Bells, White Christmas, etc.).
I personally think both sids need to take a chill pill. Christmas has become highly commercialized from its roots as a religious holiday so the Christians lose some of their credibility by saying their beliefs are being attacked because of not saying Merry Christmas, and the other side needs to realize that because of this over commercialization, saying Merry Christmas to people has become as innoculous as saying have a nice day.
Basically both sides of the debae have become too sensitive to something that is really a non issue compared to the real issues affecting this country.

[Spider-Dan]

How are sleigh bells or tree trimming "Santa Christmas"?

When I say "Santa Christmas," that's shorthand for all of the aspects of the season that have nothing to do with Jesus (most of which originate from Yule), including (but not limited to) Santa Claus, decorated trees, elves, candy canes, reindeer, mistletoe, stockings on the mantle, etc.

In America, "sleigh bells" are almost exclusively associated with Santa's sleigh; in America, if you are talking about the same type of vehicle that Santa has, but in a non-Santa context, you'd probably use the word "sled" instead.

And what is Yule?  It's a Pagan celebration.  Pagan yes, but still a celebration.  Christians have merely folded Yule into our celebration the same way that we have folded Santa into our celebration.

Christians essentially usurped Yule and (successfully) turned it into a holiday about Baby Jesus, and it's turning back into a holiday about the season.

My point all along is that the Yuletide celebration is fundamentally the cause of the Jesus-free Christmas that many Americans enjoy.  Contrary to conventional conservative wisdom, the War On Christmas is not about non-believers trying to suppress Jesus; it's really about people of all beliefs coming together to celebrate the Americanized version of Yule.  And that war has been decided for a long time.

[Pappy13]

When I say "Santa Christmas," that's shorthand for all of the aspects of the season that have nothing to do with Jesus (most of which originate from Yule)

What does Santa have to do with Yule?  I only think of "gift giving" when I think of Santa, nothing more.

In America, "sleigh bells" are almost exclusively associated with Santa's sleigh

I disagree.  In the midwest before everyone owned a car, a sleigh was the way to get around in winter, not just for Santa, but for anyone.  This is when most of those songs originated.  Sleigh rides are still popular in the midwest in the winter to this day.  Pulled by horses of course, not reindeer.  Some of the songs that mention sleigh rides specifically mention taking a ride to someones house or riding in the sleigh itself, they have nothing whatsoever to do with Santa's sleigh.

Christians essentially usurped Yule and (successfully) turned it into a holiday about Baby Jesus, and it's turning back into a holiday about the season. My point all along is that the Yuletide celebration is fundamentally the cause of the Jesus-free Christmas that many Americans enjoy.

No argument from me.  All I was trying to point out is that there are still an awful lot of us Christians that still believe in "Christmas", regardless of what you want to call it.  It is in fact the Christians who have gone a long way in attempting to fold our celebration of the birth of Christ into the various other holiday traditions. Please forgive me if I would still like to call it Christmas. 

It's misguided for me to tell you that you should call it Christmas, but it's just as misguided for you to be offended if I prefer to call it Christmas.  The argument isn't that it SHOULD be called Christmas, only that calling it Christmas SHOULD NOT be discouraged which is what it sometimes is.  There are just as many people saying we SHOULD say "Happy Holidays" as there are saying we SHOULD say "Merry Christmas".  I think everyone SHOULD be able to say whatever they want.