America's involvement in Libya

[Dave Gray]

I know that this is a big topic of debate right now, and I think that we're probably doing something good, only because Obama is taking crap from both sides (one saying he did too much, one saying he's done too little) but he has bipartisan support from the middle-ground folks.

I don't know a ton about the situation (other than it was the Libyans who hired Doc Brown to make them a bomb, only to have him steal their plutonium to power the flex capacitor.)

I am not in favor of meddling in international affairs, in general, but in this case, it seems like this was happening without us already, and we are just stepping in to protect a genocide.  I feel like we don't have a ton invested, and without boots on the ground, I'm more comfortable.

I do wish that we had a more defined mission:  Is it to stop slaughter or overturn Gadhafi?

I have heard some arguments that I don't agree with, from both sides.  The far left is saying, why help Libya when you aren't helping X, Y, and Z.   I just don't think that's a way to set policy.  You have to look at each situation on its own and make a good choice.  You can't use your past inaction to justify current and future inaction.  From the right, I hear that we waited too late, which I also feel is bunk.  In two wars in the Middle East already, you can't act with haste.  You have to gather information, wait for other countries' involvement, etc.

So, I don't know if we're doing the right thing or not, but I feel okay about it....more so than I did with Iraq or Afghanistan.

[fyo]

The "why are you doing X, when you aren't doing Y and Z" argument is awful. I absolutely hate it. Both in everyday "personal" usage and as it applies to politics. (So I shouldn't "do the right thing" this time, because I don't ALWAYS? That's moronic.)

That said, I'm not convinced the goal in Libya is simply to stop Gaddafi "cleansing" the rebel strongholds, although I think it's very likely he would have. It seems more like that was the "foot in the door", garnering absolutely incredible support only seen once before in that part of the world (Kuwait), AFAIK. When the Arab League thinks its a good idea for the West to meddle in the internal affairs of a fellow Arab League state, that's exceptional.

When waging war, with or without boots on the ground, it's always critical to have a well-defined exit strategy, as well as some very specific goals and the means to obtain them. One of the reasons Iraq pt 2 went to hell is that none of these three things were really present. There was an immediate goal, of course, but everything beyond that was very ambiguous and the result was a huge mess.

All that said, I feel good about the intervention in Libya. I don't mind in the least that the real goal is to help the rebels.

Not having troops on the ground (except for special forces units) makes for a great cover... we're not really "helping" one side, we're just protecting the civies. Yeah, right.

My question is, should we be supplying the rebels with training and/or guns?

[Dave Gray]

The thing that bothers me so much about getting involved is the "you break it, you buy it" mentality.  With Iraq, we broke down a functional (though tyrannical) government, so it's our moral duty to see that things are functioning again before we leave.  With Libya (and Egypt), they started this themselves.

[badger6]

As Ron Paul would say, end the fed, end the wars, and end the empire. Who the hell are we to police the world. If we would mind our god damn business we wouldn't be in the situation we are in. Just goes to show that these clowns that are elected president are all the same. Bush being the idiot he is sent us to Iraq. Obama calls him out about sending us to Iraq and then does the exact same thing in Libya. Can you spell hypocrite !!!

[Phishfan]

Bush being the idiot he is sent us to Iraq. Obama calls him out about sending us to Iraq and then does the exact same thing in Libya. Can you spell hypocrite !!!

Yes it is exactly the same, except for the fact that they are very different.

[Brian Fein]

I was waiting to see how long it would be before we got involved.  It seems that no conflict, anywhere in the world, can go on without the US military sticking their nose in it. 

I wish, for once, we would just mind our own damn business and stop spending money on protecting other countries.

[bsmooth]

This is a civil war period. Let Europe fight it if they want to.
Also this is completely different from Bush and Iraq. This is closer to Clinton and the UN bombing of Serbia.

[badger6]

Yes it is exactly the same, except for the fact that they are very different.

Exactly the same in the sense that we shouldn't be invading Iraq or Libya without reason. My point was that this is even worse. One of the reasons the rest of the world hates us........

This is a civil war period. Let Europe fight it if they want to.
Also this is completely different from Bush and Iraq. This is closer to Clinton and the UN bombing of Serbia.

Completely different I agree. We shouldn't be in either place is what I'm saying. If Obama is of the opinion that Bush didn't have the authority to go to Iraq. How in the hell does he justify doing this. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[shamrock]

I read somewhere today that the cost of our operatios in Libya is approaching ONE BILLION DOLLARS.

[MyGodWearsAHoodie]

Unlike Iraq or even Afghanistan this seems to be more of a UN/NATO thing than a US only or mostly thing. 

[TonyB0D]

we're involved in libya because of their huge oil reserves....gaddafi threatened to nationalize the oil, and since BP has something like 50 bil of investments there, there we go!!  we don't help other countries when they really need our help (sudan, etc), but when there's a chance to prop up a pro-us/oil gov't, you bet your ass we will try!   

[jtex316]

we're involved in libya because of their huge oil reserves....gaddafi threatened to nationalize the oil, and since BP has something like 50 bil of investments there, there we go!!  we don't help other countries when they really need our help (sudan, etc), but when there's a chance to prop up a pro-us/oil gov't, you bet your ass we will try!   

^ Then why doesn't BP send out it's own army / navy to protect their interests?

I hate that we're spending hundreds of millions of dollars in yet another war so that we can suffer though yet another recession in a few years when the country is broke again.

Shame on Obama and shame on the entire staff and administration for making such a short-sighted, future-jeopardizing move just to please Fox news. Total bullshit.

[bsmooth]

we're involved in libya because of their huge oil reserves....gaddafi threatened to nationalize the oil, and since BP has something like 50 bil of investments there, there we go!!  we don't help other countries when they really need our help (sudan, etc), but when there's a chance to prop up a pro-us/oil gov't, you bet your ass we will try!   

There is not one US oil company in Libya since Reagan declared the country off limits. Europe has the most invested in Libya oil fields which is why both England and France are so interested in getting involved militarily. We get a small amount of oil from Libya, where as Europe gets the majority of Libyan oil. So let them fight if they want too.

 Country Reserves (bbl) Share of World %
1  Saudi Arabia (more information) 264,600,000,000 19.00%
2  Canada (more information) 175,200,000,000 12.58%
3  Iran (more information) 137,600,000,000 9.88%
4  Iraq (more information) 115,000,000,000 8.26%
5  Kuwait (more information) 104,000,000,000 7.47%
6  United Arab Emirates (more information) 97,800,000,000 7.02%
7  Venezuela (more information) 97,770,000,000 7.02%
8  Russia (more information) 74,200,000,000 5.33%
9  Libya (more information) 47,000,000,000 3.38%
10  Nigeria (more information) 37,500,000,000 2.69%
11  Kazakhstan 30,000,000,000 2.15%
12  Qatar 25,410,000,000 1.82%
13  China 20,350,000,000 1.46%
14  United States (more information) 19,120,000,000 1.37%
15  Angola 13,500,000,000 0.97%
16  Algeria 13,420,000,000 0.96%
17  Brazil 13,200,000,000 0.95%
18  Mexico (more information) 12,420,000,000 0.89%
19  Azerbaijan 7,000,000,000 0.50%
20  Sudan 6,800,000,000 0.49%
21  Norway 6,680,000,000 0.48%
22  Ecuador 6,542,000,000 0.47%
23  India 5,800,000,000 0.42%
24  Oman 5,500,000,000 0.39%
—  European Union 5,453,000,000 0.39%
25  Vietnam 4,700,000,000 0.34%
26  Egypt 4,300,000,000 0.31%
27  Indonesia 4,050,000,000 0.29%
28  Australia 3,318,000,000 0.24%
29  Yemen 3,160,000,000 0.23%
30  United Kingdom 3,084,000,000 0.22%
31  Malaysia 2,900,000,000 0.21%
32  Syria 2,500,000,000 0.18%
33  Argentina 2,386,000,000 0.17%
34  Gabon 2,000,000,000 0.14%
35  Colombia 1,900,000,000 0.14%
36  Congo, Republic of the 1,600,000,000 0.11%
37  Chad 1,500,000,000 0.11%
38  Brunei 1,100,000,000 0.08%
39  Equatorial Guinea 1,100,000,000 0.08%
40  Denmark 1,060,000,000 0.08%
41  Trinidad and Tobago 728,300,000 0.05%
42  Romania 600,000,000 0.04%
43  Turkmenistan 600,000,000 0.04%
44  Uzbekistan 594,000,000 0.04%
45  Timor-Leste 553,800,000 0.04%
46  Peru 470,800,000 0.03%
47  Bolivia 465,000,000 0.03%
48  Pakistan 436,200,000 0.03%
49  Thailand 430,000,000 0.03%
50  Tunisia 425,000,000 0.03%
51  Italy 423,700,000 0.03%
52  Ukraine 395,000,000 0.03%
53  Germany 276,000,000 0.02%
54  Turkey 262,200,000 0.02%
55  Cote d'Ivoire 250,000,000 0.02%
56  Cameroon 200,000,000 0.01%
57  Albania 199,100,000 0.01%
58  Belarus 198,000,000 0.01%
59  Congo, Democratic Republic of the 180,000,000 0.01%
60  Cuba (more information) 178,900,000 0.01%
61  Papua New Guinea 170,000,000 0.01%
62  Philippines 168,000,000 0.01%
63  Chile 150,000,000 0.01%
64  Spain 150,000,000 0.01%
65  Bahrain 124,600,000 0.01%
66  France 101,200,000 0.01%
67  Mauritania 100,000,000 0.01%
68  Netherlands 100,000,000 0.01%
69  Morocco 100,000,000 0.01%
70  Poland 96,380,000 0.01%
71  Austria 89,000,000 0.01%
72  Guatemala 83,070,000 0.01%
73  Suriname 79,600,000 0.01%
74  Serbia 77,500,000 0.01%
75  Croatia 73,350,000 0.01%
76  New Zealand 60,000,000 0.00%
77  Burma 50,000,000 0.00%
78  Japan 44,120,000 0.00%
79  Kyrgyzstan 40,000,000 0.00%
80  Georgia 35,000,000 0.00%
81  Bangladesh 28,000,000 0.00%
82  Hungary 26,570,000 0.00%
83  Bulgaria 15,000,000 0.00%
84  South Africa 15,000,000 0.00%
85  Czech Republic 15,000,000 0.00%
86  Ghana (more information) 15,000,000 0.00%
87  Lithuania 12,000,000 0.00%
88  Tajikistan 12,000,000 0.00%
89  Greece 10,000,000 0.00%
90  Slovakia 9,000,000 0.00%
91  Benin 8,000,000 0.00%
92  Belize 6,700,000 0.00%
93  Taiwan 2,800,000 0.00%
94  Israel 1,940,000 0.00%
95  Barbados 1,790,000 0.00%
96  Jordan 1,000,000 0.00%
97  Ethiopia 430,000 0.00%
- Total 1,392,461,050,000 100.00%


Libya is 9th, Sudan is 20th so that kills your premise that we only get involved in countries that produce oil.
Also now that the rebel commander has admitted that some of his fighters are being motivated to fight by Al Qaeda the GOP is going to back off from their we must help comments leading up to this.

[badger6]

From what I have read from different places, we have enough oil right here to power us for hundreds of years. So what the fuck is the problem ? Why are we trying to steal shit from other places  ? Why are we paying their prices when we have out own source right here ? How many jobs would that create if we utilized our own reserves ? How much money would we make by selling our oil to other countries by under cutting the price ? Could we pay off most of our national debt with the income ? If we don't sell it, couldn't we keep it and have 99¢ a gallon for a long time ? I'm of the opinion that we are all getting conned by the top 1% of the world. This shit pisses me off so much. Fuck em all.......................... .........

[Brian Fein]

^^ I think the idea is that we hoard the oil until the rest of the world runs out and then sell it at a premium.  Or use it.